We should define bullying then. To me, it's not bullying saying "you're script is horrible and here's why...".

Bullies don't so the "and here's why" part, I've found. At least they didn't to me in the fourth grade.

To me a bully someone who puts you down out of meanness, so to say " I think you're ugly cause you have a big nose" that being a bully, they gave a reason, but still........

[EDIT]

stupid comparison I know, what I have meant to say is, we can learn from each other in a positive way, we can be nice to one another, it isn't hard, I don't think you need to blow smoke up some one's butt, but just be constructive in a polite way, if someone is being a jerk, hell ya call em on it, I will, there should be zero tolerance for cruelty.

Quoted from The boy who could fly To me a bully someone who puts you down out of meanness, so to say " I think you're ugly cause you have a big nose" that being a bully, they gave a reason, but still........ [EDIT] stupid comparison I know, what I have meant to say is, we can learn from each other in a positive way, we can be nice to one another, it isn't hard, I don't think you need to blow smoke up some one's butt, but just be constructive in a polite way, if someone is being a jerk, hell ya call em on it, I will, there should be zero tolerance for cruelty.

Yeah but the difference is saying someone is ugly is personal. We're putting stuff out there to be reviewed by others. Our scritps. We're asking for their honest to God opinion.

If this was a beauty pagent site, and we were asking to have our looks reviewed then someone is bound think you're ugly at some point. Or you'd risk that someone thought you were ugly because you have a big nose (the non-deicitic you, mind you!), and well, they should tell you, because you're asking to be told what people think.

I agree, being constructive is key. And you can be contructive and still speak your mind, I think. Saying "your script is horrible, and here's why" is contructive even if it is rough around the edges.

Quoted from Death Monkey I agree, being constructive is key. And you can be contructive and still speak your mind, I think. Saying "your script is horrible, and here's why" is contructive even if it is rough around the edges.

Agreed, totally, you can do this and not be mean, take a look at MGJ's review of one of my scripts called spoiled, he hated it and said why, but he was not being mean or cruel, he said his thoughts and why he hated it, but he didn't put me down, and it is a harsh review, one of the harshest I have gotten, but my feelings weren't hurt and although I may disagree with some of what he said he was honest in a non mean spirited way.

OK, Jordan.  Now it's your turn.

If we were to ignore the naughty words for just a moment -- I need you to tell me how this:

Quoted from A review that Jordan thinks is good and fair I'm not gonna be so diplomatic as the others.  This was bad on many levels.  Being sick and twisted is not a virtue in and of itself.  Whoever you are, you need to learn this.     If there was a point or a moral to this story then I would have been open-minded about it.

Is really so much different that this:  

Quoted from A review that really pissed Jordan off Your hero murders people who don't like his taste in music?  What kind of "stuff" is that?  I stopped reading then and there -- page 6. Here's a new phrase for your vocabulary:  morally indefensible.

Both judge the story in exactly the same way, yet you found one helpful and the other offensive.

What are you using for a yardstick here?  Not arguing.  Genuinely asking.

Quoted from mgj In fairness this was competently written.  Those were my honest feelings though so I have to stick by them.  Just one question - what exactly was your inspiration for this piece.  On second thought, I don't want to know.

Happy.  He still said something positive

No.  Not happy yet.

That was an edit added later AND you are taking the easy out.

In fact, I think Mike's review for Spoiled attacks the author more than the one you got all bent out of shape about.  Mike is giving you nothing at all to improve your story if you actually think about it.  Bryan, on the other hand, is telling you specifically what he did not like.

See what I mean?

Do you think your bias against a reviewer -- say, bryan -- might taint your views of his comments?  Making them appear worse than they actually are?

[Edit:  I like Mike.  This ain't a bust on him.  Just a good example.]

yeah, of course, all his posts to me were bull, and so what if MGJ edited, he is not a jerk, he hated my script, but decided to say something else after, which means he is not doing it to be mean.

I just don't like it when people are bullies, and people can put me down all they want for it, I'm not gonna change that view, it is wrong to be cruel to one another.

You probably think I'm a jerk Bert, and ya, that upsets me cause I do like and respect you, but I do disagree with you on this subject.

and by the way I just cut out about 5 curse words...LOL, sorry, just so ya know I am learning,

Jordan, you are getting me wrong here.

I am not busting your chops at all.  Not even a little.

You entered the conversation, and you gave an example, and I was asking you some questions.

If it came off as harsh, that was only because I was typing quickly.  I usually compose my posts with a little more thought.

I was just curious.  Unless Tuesday is beat up on Jordan day and I missed it.


[EDIT:  Perhaps it would help if I lost the avatar with the big canon haha]

I understand that Bert, I DO have personal grievances with people who are mean to others, and I don't tolerate it.

This guy who has made the post that started this thread bothered me right away, and a part of me is upset I didn't say anything sooner, maybe all this wouldn't have happened.

I think when you feel someone is being mean you should say something, if that person says he said it wrong, it was misinterpeted, that would solve a lot of problems, and in no way am I innocent, I have said a lot of stupid things on this site, and if I am called on it I would apologize or retort.

And no, beat up on Jordan day is Thursdays  

Quoted from The boy who could fly I just don't like it when people are bullies, and people can put me down all they want for it, I'm not gonna change that view, it is wrong to be cruel to one another. You probably think I'm a jerk Bert, and ya, that upsets me cause I do like and respect you, but I do disagree with you on this subject.

Jordan, I really think you’re getting carried away with the victim mentality here. No one is putting you down for being against bullying. And no one is standing by a bully here. We just don’t happen to agree with you that Bryan is a bully.

I don’t agree with Bryan’s language. But I think his criticism is entirely fair. That obviously doesn’t make me someone who stands by a bully because I don’t see Bryan as a bully. I see him as blunt. I also see him as misguided in thinking that a reviewer’s function here is the same as a movie critic. We are writers reviewing other writers for the purpose of helping each other improve, not critics paid by a media to critique films as a public service. So I think Bryan is wrong to review with that mindset. But I don’t think he’s a bully.


Breanne

Here's my belated 2 cents:

A job of a story editor, script doctor or script analyser is not to crush a writer into pulp to a point where they are scared to write again. The job of a story editor (and in our cases here, a script reviewer) should be to point out what works and what doesn't work in a screenplay.

Look, I know a writer and a story editor. The writer had a script accepted into a workshop with industry experts. They workshopped his script, gave incredible feedback and sent him off to do a re-write. One week later (way too short of a time), the writer returned for a follow up. What happened next was a disaster. The script had not improved and obviously the writer had not listened to the story editor at all. The editor was so upset, he tore into the screenplay like there was no tomorrow. Then he tore into the writer. And then he threw the script at the writer and stormed out. This happened infront of an audience of 50 or so people. The writer was so destroyed, that he has never written again and the next time he bumped into the story editor, the editor got down on his knees and apologised.

Why did I tell this story? I'd like to see a more professional approach at reviewing. We need to practice a professional approach with each other because we are each other's peers. I agree that there are some really bad scripts on here, but it's the job of an editor (or in our case, a reviewer) to be professional in their response. Again, we are not trying to destroy the writer - but telling them, in an honest opinion, why something doesn't work. We are not in the job (or volunteering) to potentially destroy a writer before they blossom, but to guide and help the writer.

I have no problem being brutely honest - I would rather have that than someone waxing my car, but it needs to be professional. As for the review in question, there should never be a reason to swear when reviewing material. It just makes you look like an amatuer. Also, and this is a BIG lesson to learn in critique people's work - is that you are not the writer, therefore it's not your job to tell them what to do or give them suggestions... because the moment you do that, it becomes your idea. Let the writer's figure that out themselves.

So, in summary, from what I read in the quotations from Bert, I would definitely re-word the review. The reviewer stopped at page 6 after deeming the hero morally dishonest. But what happens if the rest of the script explains why the hero did this? What if there is a thematic reason to the events? What happens if our POV changes and it's an anti-hero tragic story? I think it was a little naive of the reviewer to stop at page 6 and make those comments without reading the rest of the script, or even the first act (but that's just my personal opinion). But the biggest thing for me, is that it should have been worded differently and give the writer a chance to answer. Why did the hero commit this act? What does it add to the theme, character arc, plot? Questions like this will get the writer thinking instead of crawling into a box and dying.

My (long) humble opinion.

Stew

Quoted from dogglebe You're dead wrong here, Wes.  I don't need to read an entire script to know that the characters and dialog are unrealistic.  I've seen scripts that have such ridiculous premises that it is painfully obvious that the writer has no idea what he's talking about.  And then there's always the truly, truly ridiculous premises that some people write.  I remember years and years ago, I started reading someone's story about the government creating cybernetic vampires.  The only problem he had with his story was figuring out what happened to the cybernetic parts when the vampires turned to mist. WTF????????????????????????????????????? I'm not going to force myself to read a problem-ridden script.  I simply don't have the time or desire to do so.  If I review a script that I partially read, I will point the problems that stopped me from completing it. Phil

Which brings up the issue I have. Do we, as S.S. reviewers, take the stance of a producer or a story editor, script doctor/analyser.

If we have our producer's hats on - then by all means, I will stop reading after page 10 if it's crap. Honestly. And I'll tell the writer why (professionally).

If I am story editing a script, then it's my obligation to finish the story and give an honest critique to the writer. Many people are paid to do this, and wouldn't stop after page 10.

What are we...?

Quoted from Breanne Mattson Jordan, I really think you�re getting carried away with the victim mentality here. No one is putting you down for being against bullying. And no one is standing by a bully here. We just don�t happen to agree with you that Bryan is a bully. I don�t agree with Bryan�s language. But I think his criticism is entirely fair. That obviously doesn�t make me someone who stands by a bully because I don�t see Bryan as a bully. I see him as blunt. I also see him as misguided in thinking that a reviewers function here is the same as a movie critic. We are writers reviewing other writers for the purpose of helping each other improve, not critics paid by a media to critique films as a public service. So I think Bryan is wrong to review with that mindset. But I don�t think he�s a bully. Breanne

You make a good point, but I have to disagree, I think being a bully is putting others down in a mean way, I know bullies, I know them well, I can tell by they way they use their words, it's instinct for me, I suck at a lot of things, but not at noticing this kind of behavior, I see it day to day, starts off small but it gets bigger and bigger the more we accept it the worse it gets.

I think what I am trying to say is that, if you feel you need to be harsh in your review, be harsh, just don't be so jerkish(is that a word, probably not)

My feelings for this subject will never change, every time I have kept my mouth shut to a degrading or mean spirited comment I kick myself, but no more.  I will stop using curse words and re read my posts several times before I post them, but I live by my heart, I live by what I think is right and wrong.  Heck, I like a lot of the people here who I'm pretty sure now dislike me a lot, and I hope that we can all get along, be hard on a script, speak your mind, just do it in a way that the writer feels more like 'I need to work on this" rather than "I suck and I should quit"

Quoted from The boy who could fly You make a good point, but I have to disagree, I think being a bully is putting others down in a mean way, I know bullies, I know them well, I can tell by they way they use their words, it's instinct for me, I suck at a lot of things, but not at noticing this kind of behavior, I see it day to day, starts off small but it gets bigger and bigger the more we accept it the worse it gets. I think what I am trying to say is that, if you feel you need to be harsh in your review, be harsh, just don't be so jerkish(is that a word, probably not) My feelings for this subject will never change, every time I have kept my mouth shut to a degrading or mean spirited comment I kick myself, but no more.  I will stop using curse words and re read my posts several times before I post them, but I live by my heart, I live by what I think is right and wrong.  Heck, I like a lot of the people here who I'm pretty sure now dislike me a lot, and I hope that we can all get along, be hard on a script, speak your mind, just do it in a way that the writer feels more like 'I need to work on this" rather than "I suck and I should quit"

Jordan, I don’t see that the reviewer is “putting the writer down in a mean way.” I see an honest review. I agree with Heretic and others that there’s absolutely no reason to use profanity in a review. I wouldn’t personally take a reviewer seriously if he didn’t have the writing skills enough to review without profanity.

So I agree Bryan was wrong to use profanity. But I don’t see that his words were any sort of personal attack on the author. I see his words as brutally honest. If I tell a writer that I don’t think his script has any chance of selling without a specific change, that’s just my opinion. But I don’t see how it’s bullying.


Breanne