Folks have a tendency to fight for their scripts.  You suggest that a scene might not work well.  The writer wants to defend their masterpiece.  A re-write of the scene never occurs.  Instead, the writer points out that the reviewer is wrong.  Their script is perfect.

I have seen the above behavior a lot.  And it's not very productive.

First drafts are usually pretty bad, so why the defensiveness?

Now, considering that we are writing a shared medium, where actors, directors, producers, editors, script polishers, etc. impact the performance of a script, how can someone not be completely open to changing their script?

What do you think?  And do you kept drafts, so that you can see the progress of your script over time?

tweak

My big problem (and a lot of people share this with me) is that some writers submit their script as soon as they finish their first drafts.  These scripts are filled with typos, misspellings and other problems that could be resolved by simply clicking the spellcheck button.

The reason some people get upset when their work is criticized (even when it's first draft) is because you're essentially telling them that their baby is ugly.

Often, these writers have had their friends read their scripts and they think it rocks.  Problem with this is that the bar is a little higher on SS and we are not as easily impressed....especially with cool scripts.



Phil

On the other hand a writer is entitled to make whatever changes they deem fit for their creation.  They don't have to and should not make every change that is suggested.  

You seem to be posting a lot of these little threads.

I, for one, am guilty of fighting for my script.  However, I like to think of it as sticking up for my ideas that you are essentially bashing.  When a group of people like a certain idea or story and then suddenly someone else comes in and tells you it sucks...well, it's hard to agree with them.  It's also hard to suddenly change your script based on that one person's opinion and risk losing all those people who liked it as it is just to please the sole basher.

Now if people keep pointing out a certain problem over and over again, well then you should consider going back and looking it over.  But if it's one person, then I say fight for your idea.

You just gotta remember that there's no way you can please everyone.  Sooner or later someone is not going to like your script.  It doesn't mean you have to immediately go out and change it.

That doesn't mean I turn down every suggestion.  If I feel it could make the story better, I will definitely consider the idea.

That's just my two cents.  I actually like it when I see people "fighting for their script" because it means, to me, that they're proud of their work.  What's wrong with that?

The problem is when someone takes the time to read and review your script and you fight it every minute... future readers will not put as much into reviewing your work.

I agree with people who fight back against people who read a couple pages but if someone reads through a longer script, you should at least acknowledge that you appreciate the help even if you find nothing useful in what they said.

I think most regular members here - forget about Alien5Writer - are pretty open to critique and in general will take critique in the manner in which is was given. But critiques/reviews all boils down to taste and interpretation and you seldom see two people who think alike. I think it's perfectly fine if the writer and reviewer don't agree and I would expect anyone to defend something they believe is "right" (for lack of a better word).

I don't think it's possible to satisfy everyone and I don't think anybody should try to do that. At some point you have to stick to your principles (I'm referring to spec scripts here and not a paid job cos' that would obviously be something entirely different).  

My problem is when the writer agrees that something should be done better or in a different way in a script but then don't do anything about it. Then you're just begging not to be taken seriously anymore.

Alien5writer is not the only one who has done this.  Others have posted their scripts and got nasty when they're told their scripts need work.  Or just say that they'll do better next write and ignore all past criticism.


Phil

Quoted from dogglebe Alien5writer is not the only one who has done this.

Certainly...but that guy really stood out.

Hahaha, I couldn't agree more bud.  You're absolutely right, people do tend to get a little tense and refuse to fix their problems.  If people refuse, then there's no real point to posting their scripts if they aren't going to make changes.  I mean come on guys, let's all be honest with ourselves, NONE of us enjoy getting notes and critique, we all don't like it because we put a lot of time and effort in our screenplays, and they're chewed up and spat back out in our faces.  None of us ENJOY that, but hey, it's essential to making a proper screenplay.  Once you turn in your first draft, you wait for notes, and the SECOND anyone says they stopped reading after 10 pages, you get your butt in gear and start re-working your screenplay.  I definitely feel that you are supposed to listen to advice given and be GRATEFUL that someone actually took the time to give it to you.

Quoted from Kamran Nikhad Hahaha, I couldn't agree more bud.  You're absolutely right, people do tend to get a little tense and refuse to fix their problems.  If people refuse, then there's no real point to posting their scripts if they aren't going to make changes.  I mean come on guys, let's all be honest with ourselves, NONE of us enjoy getting notes and critique, we all don't like it because we put a lot of time and effort in our screenplays, and they're chewed up and spat back out in our faces.  None of us ENJOY that, but hey, it's essential to making a proper screenplay.  Once you turn in your first draft, you wait for notes, and the SECOND anyone says they stopped reading after 10 pages, you get your butt in gear and start re-working your screenplay.  I definitely feel that you are supposed to listen to advice given and be GRATEFUL that someone actually took the time to give it to you.

You shouldn't make changes unless you agree with them. The point of feedback is getting a new perspective on your script and sometimes that means some hard truths you have to swallow, but an unconscious assembly line re-write is pointless.

And do most people here really submit their very first draft? I don't. I'm always on my 2nd or 3rd once I deem them good enough to go on SS.

Quoted from Death Monkey You shouldn't make changes unless you agree with them. The point of feedback is getting a new perspective on your script and sometimes that means some hard truths you have to swallow, but an unconscious assembly line re-write is pointless. And do most people here really submit their very first draft? I don't. I'm always on my 2nd or 3rd once I deem them good enough to go on SS.

Newer members tend to post only their first draft, sometimes longer term members do too.  I personally haven't.  I went through 8 drafts of a single screenplay before I felt it could go on SS, and ultimately, I never posted it.  

But as for change.  Well no, I don't mean going through ANY changes, but I mean usually they're on the money, wouldn't you say?

Quoted from Kamran Nikhad Newer members tend to post only their first draft, sometimes longer term members do too.  I personally haven't.  I went through 8 drafts of a single screenplay before I felt it could go on SS, and ultimately, I never posted it.   But as for change.  Well no, I don't mean going through ANY changes, but I mean usually they're on the money, wouldn't you say?

Usually when everybody highlights the same problems, yes, but I've been in a situation where a great number of people felt an element in my script needed revising, and despite their best efforts to convince me, I wasn't.

I never did change it, because I believed that part was integral to the script. Eventually the script went on to win first place in a big competition.

My point is, if you change something and you don't understand why you're changing it yourself, you're not gonna replace it with anything good.

Sometimes you also have to believe in your vision and be resilient.

Quoted from Death Monkey Usually when everybody highlights the same problems, yes, but I've been in a situation where a great number of people felt an element in my script needed revising, and despite their best efforts to convince me, I wasn't. I never did change it, because I believed that part was integral to the script. Eventually the script went on to win first place in a big competition. My point is, if you change something and you don't understand why you're changing it yourself, you're not gonna replace it with anything good. Sometimes you also have to believe in your vision and be resilient.

You know, actually that's a really good point bud.  I mean usually they ARE right, but not in every case.  Ah I see what you're saying.

Quoted from Death Monkey You shouldn't make changes unless you agree with them. The point of feedback is getting a new perspective on your script and sometimes that means some hard truths you have to swallow, but an unconscious assembly line re-write is pointless.

I agree completely. Even when a bunch of people pinpoint the same issue, you shouldn't change it unless you believe it needs to be changed. 9 times out of 10, these guys are right but 9 times out of 10 isn't all the time. One should also keep in mind that aside from formatting errors and such, these comments are people's opinions. A lot of the writers here have a lot of experience on their hands. A good number of them have more than I do so I trust their judgments. Still, I've yet to revise a script based on comments I didn't agree with or didn't understand.

Still, I do think there are a few people here who could do well to humble themselves and be open to advice. It's not just the inexperienced writers/newcomers either. There've been some really talented writers around who've basically shot down any advice just because they want to be right.

Another approach is to make the change, resubmit the draft, and say that you are really not certain about the change.  It just doesn't appear to work for you.

Then, folks might come back and say that you did understand what they meant.  This does happen.

There is no harm in rewriting a scene and omitting it later.

tweak

Quoted from tweak Another approach is to make the change, resubmit the draft, and say that you are really not certain about the change.  It just doesn't appear to work for you. Then, folks might come back and say that you did understand what they meant.  This does happen. There is no harm in rewriting a scene and omitting it later. tweak

What would you possible gain by rewriting a scene you don't think should be rewritten, replacing it with something you feel is inferior and then resubmitting just so people can pat you on the back and go "thanks for listening"?

Quoted from Death Monkey What would you possible gain by rewriting a scene you don't think should be rewritten, replacing it with something you feel is inferior and then resubmitting just so people can pat you on the back and go "thanks for listening"?

We are talking about revising a scene that might be maybe a page or two long, right?

That's where I struggle in this conversation.  It doesn't seem like a big deal to me.  I think, it's a bigger deal to suggest re-ordering of scenes or cutting huge chunks out.

tweak

Quoted from tweak We are talking about revising a scene that might be maybe a page or two long, right? That's where I struggle in this conversation.  It doesn't seem like a big deal to me.  I think, it's a bigger deal to suggest re-ordering of scenes or cutting huge chunks out. tweak

The point isn't whether or not it's a big deal, the point is you shouldn't arbitrarily change something just because someone tells you to. Unless they're paying you. You need to be critical towards criticism as well.

So I ask again, what would you gain in doing so? I'm struggling here as well.

Quoted from tweak Another approach is to make the change, resubmit the draft, and say that you are really not certain about the change.  It just doesn't appear to work for you.

Why on Earth would you want to do that? That's sucking up to someone you don't agree with. That makes absolutely no sense. Please, grow a spine.

It's something of a non-issue in my honest opinion.

If people don't take anything from the criticism, then it is their loss. What difference does it make?

It merely means that you won't bother commenting on their work again and can concentrate on others who are more deserving or needing of the help.

The good thing about scripts are that there are independent barometers of quality. You have festivals and a body of filmmakers looking for material. perhaps those writers who refuse to take advice will ultimately change their ways when they fail to achieve success in those areas....

Let me clarify.

If someone suggests trying to do a scene a certain way, I see no harm in trying it out that way.  It opens me up to new possibilities I did not think about originally.  This has nothing to do with being a hard ass and saying that you're right and everyone else is wrong.

Ultimately, your script is going to be interpreted by a director, producer, editor, actor and other people, so it's gonna change whether you want it to or not.  I am just suggesting to be open to try new things out.  You can interpret that has having no spine.  But I like working with people.

My gut reaction when someone says something bad is to think they're wrong.  But then, I want to try out their suggestion to confirm what, I think.  There is some confirmation bias here, but I like the idea of being exposed to new ideas.  If I keep telling everybody that their wrong, how will I ever be able to collaborate with a group of people later on?  And why would people continue to provide feedback, if I keep discounting it and not trying it out?

tweak

Quoted from tweak I am just suggesting to be open to try new things out.  You can interpret that has having no spine.  But I like working with people.

But we're not talking about a paying gig (where the rules are certainly different), we're talking about reviews and critiques here on this board (at least, that's what I got from your very first post in this thread). And you're saying that if someone suggest that you change your script, then you would do that, even if you don't agree with the changes. To me, that's selling out.

It's okay to disagree with a reviewer. It is, after all, just an opinion.

Exactly.

If you don't discriminate between the criticism you agree with and the criticism you don't the screenplay you're writing isn't yours, it's the people's you're trying to please.

There's an old proverb that goes "you can put a lot of crap into a too open mind".

Be open to criticism. But be critical towards it too. You need to have a strong voice as a writer, and that means that you to know where your script is going and where it's definitely not going. If I say "add more killer robots!" to your romantic comedy, it would be an invaluable skill to be able to say "Wow that's a crap suggestion! I'm not using that".

Quoted from sniper But we're not talking about a paying gig (where the rules are certainly different), we're talking about reviews and critiques here on this board (at least, that's what I got from your very first post in this thread). And you're saying that if someone suggest that you change your script, then you would do that, even if you don't agree with the changes. To me, that's selling out. It's okay to disagree with a reviewer. It is, after all, just an opinion.

But how will you be prepared for a paying gig, if you are not opening yourself to try new things?  Routine breeds habits.

tweak

Quoted from tweak But how will you be prepared for a paying gig, if you are not opening yourself to try new things?

How would you even get a paying gig if you can't write something that's yours?

If you disagree with a review, a polite "thank you" is all that's really necessary.  That response will never be incorrect -- you will never sound like a jack-ass -- it will always be appropriate.

But there is nothing wrong with critiquing your critiquer.  

When you get a review you disagree with, that is when you should go and read something THEY have written -- fairly, with an unbiased eye -- and based upon that you can often decide whether or not their advice has any merit.

That's how I do it, anyway.

Every critique which is more than cursory is a good critique.

It's important to take cues from other people whose work we respect; then too, it's good to absorb the comments from others who may have very different visions than us even if they are young writers who are also stumbling over those big blocks, but nevertheless involved in the early stages of growth.

Paying attention to all of the comments can help in the expansion of our work-- we can look at it in ways we otherwise wouldn't have.

I see that the posts in this thread collectively hold a balanced philosophy: Don't rush to change your script just because... But pay attention to what others have to say...

In total, we must let go of all defensiveness.  We're here to learn and to support others in that same effort.  

It is hard though.  We must first do something poorly before we can do something well.  

Always remember: A professional is an amateur who never quit.

Sandra

I appreciate criticism since it allows the writer to know what he/she did good and what he/she did bad. The bad part is obvious; the good part is what he/she doesn't mention as bad or mentions as good parts.  The writer just has to critique the critiquer's advice to make sure it's where he/she wants the story to go.

Gabe

Hey,

The general consensus seems to be take all criticism with a grain of salt and I agree with that. As others have said, some people have different visions for how a character or screenplay should go, I'd even take it a step further to say that sometimes people just plain don't get, which isn't a bad thing (I'm sure I've been guilty of it too), in its way, that kind of feedback is also very useful.

Also, I know on my scripts I've second guessed criticisms by trying to explain what I was trying to do to the reader. After reading this it's just occurred to me that I might have been interpreted as being defensive. I want to make clear that wasn't really my primary intent, rather I was putting out what I was trying to do and bounce that off of my reader in they hope that I would get more targeted feed back. I hope people don't get put off by that kind of thing, I don't think they should be put off anyway, by thinking that the author is being combative or something. If it creates a dialog, which is what I was trying to do, I think thats more beneficial in the long run and you'll get more in depth feedback.

Another thing is the people who seem to only take feedback from people they respect, while as a general rule of thumb I agree, I also think its important not to just discount any criticism of the bat no matter where it comes from(perhaps there are some exceptions). Or in other words, take all criticism with a gain of salt and take criticism from people you don't respect with a block of salt.

sheepwalker