Quoted from Andrew That feels like a legitimate question right now: How serious are you about getting into the film industry? Are you here to learn about film screenwriting - to improve, and expand your writing? Are you here to pass some time, and learn a little? Do you see SS as a time killer? Do you truly believe you can get working in the industry? I am here to learn, and would love to build substantial contacts to get working - sure, it's going to be very hard, - but what's the point otherwise. There are so many more pertinent Qs, but the core is: Has SS lost its abilities to teach /bring the best writing out of people? Reading through a lot of the threads and the ability - or not - to take others' views has left me a little jaded of late. We have debates about how worthwhile shorts or features are, and it seems a lot of the point has been missed: we're here to learn and share, no? Everybody has something to bring to the table, I think. It just feels like a lot of the learning is being sidetracked by 'other stuff', and it feels a great shame, 'cos surely the reason this community exists is down to a desire to get working in the industry? On the other hand, the OWC is a great opportunity to get this show back on the road. Curious what others think. Andrew

It's clear to me that SS is still a great resource for the learning writer.

Your problem seems to be more a question of expectation. There is only so much a website can do for you. SS is not an agency or a Production Company and there is a limit to what it can give you.

It can't guarantee that you will come up with a sellable idea or even really show you how to sell a script.

It may help, for clarity's sake, for you to present some constructive ideas that we can discuss. It's not necessary for the site to change direction in any way, but we can have a group of us concentrating on certain things that you may feel you want, and that would be beneficial to writers at a certain stage. There's a body of people on here with growing experience of writing and production.

And a body of people with or without experience and just a little focus has a lot more power than people may realise. I do think that there is a lot more we could do together if we thought things through and I'd be happy to be part of that process.

I think SS does it's job and it does it well.  If you look over your first script and your last you will surely see a huge difference in quality, I know I would.  The help from the core members here is terrific and has helped me improve my writing skills without a doubt.  Whether I take writing seriously is another thing, somedays I do and somedays I don't.  Somedays I feel I've written some great pages and I could make it in the business and then there are the days when nothing works and I think I should have stuck to my original plan of becoming the worlds greatest Super Bomberman player.

I knew nothing about writing screenplays before I registered for this site. I was so bad, my first attempt at writing a script was on MS Word and turned out like a format disaster. After joining here, I've learned so much about scripts, how they are structured, the importance of good screenwriting software, all the rules of formatting, everything from this site. I do try to write every day so I guess I am pretty serious about it. Spelling and Grammar have never been my strong points so I don't hold much hope, but if I can write a great story, who knows?

I have noticed the recent threads but still regard this site as the best, better than any of the alternatives. Recently, on ScriptShadow, on the week he judged scripts from writers with representation, check the comments on them from fellow 'writers'. Some of the posts were like "This script is sh*t, I can't believe this is getting him meetings around town". Is that jealousy or what? Not just one comment, but hundreds, from writers jealous that this guy is having some sort of sucess with his script and they're not. Imagine if this site was full of these people? I'm glad it's not, people here actually help and for me that's why it's the best.

Also, on one of the ScriptShadow comments page, lots of them, including the guy who runs the site, slate Simply Scripts and even quote dialogue from some scripts on here. I wouldn't take anything seriously though, the feedback on here is more detailed and helpful than the reviews on spec scripts on his site.

I've been on here since 2004, and by and large, the most useful feature is the people who are willing to read and comment on your work. Everyone's comments are useful because everyone has their own opinions about what works and what doesn't. My work has been equally torn apart and praised. And the tearing and praising has even happened on the same draft of the same script before. Even my writing style has changed since I first got on here and gotten that precious feedback. The feedback showed me what I was doing wrong on the scripts I'd done, and then allowed me to do something new to use that feedback going forward.

Are there a lot of sidebar conversations? Oh yes. But every discussion board will have that. Sometimes I've participated (and occasionally made it worse), but on the whole, I just read it and move on with a cursory eye-roll.

You can get out of this site what you need to. You can be one of those people who are known for killer feedback (as I used to be known before life took over and I lost a lot of time to read), and to leave that kind of feedback doesn't take much. You just have to read and comment. I learned as much by commenting on others' work as I did from receiving feedback on my own. After all, you can learn from others' mistakes as well. You can tell someone else what went wrong and realize that you have exactly the same problem in an area of your own work.

Oh yes, how serious am I? Quite serious. I had people critique my query letters once to try and get some help with being noticed. That didn't work, and getting into the industry that way is more frustrating than anything else. It takes a lot of self-motivation to achieve anything. Best bets on being noticed are probably contests or just writing and shooting something yourself. At least you'll appear dedicated.

So far, I've shot two of my own scripts and once I get done with post on my second, I plan on moving on to a third. I've also got a couple of concept albums from musicals I've written in the works as I'm writing novels based on my screenplays. You get in however you can get in, and I'm trying every avenue available.

So, the bottom line is that I believe the most valuable resource on these boards are the people. Give feedback. Get feedback. They're both equally valuable. That script read exchange is more than just a nice thing to do. It's part of the learning experience.

If I can stop working nine to five and make enough money to retire then it has been worth it.

We all have ups and downs.  If we can improve and get somewhere then it'll be for the greater good.  And the community here is the first stop to say my thanks if I make it.

Quoted from sniper My main problem is when people posts scripts they themselves call "shit" and "no good", and it seems like the board has been bombarded with that lately. They get two middle fingers from me cos they're pissing on Don and the rest of us.

I agree with you here because it takes away from people who actually need the feedback.

The message boards should reward the people who use them. One day your script is on top the next it's on page 8 and people are wary on what to read and what not to read.

Quoted from sniper My main problem is when people posts scripts they themselves call "shit" and "no good", and it seems like the board has been bombarded with that lately. They get two middle fingers from me cos they're pissing on Don and the rest of us.

Hey Rob, I really wonder about who you're taliking about?

I don't want to name names but check out a few of the newly uploaded scripts, Michel.

There have been some very interesting and thoughtful responses.

Thankfully, this thread didn't cause too much grief.

The single thing that unites everyone - from the evidence within this thread - is a gratitude for a place to congregate and learn. Learn about screenwriting, meet lovely people and to find focus. SS can only be as good as its members, and - I think - that's why it's highly regarded by all.

Now, unfortunately, my initial post didn't articulate my thoughts clearly - there has never been a suggestion from me that this site is not a great place to learn and benefit from the experiences of others. The point was whether or not we has lost some focus, and - thankfully - some others have felt a twinge of what I had been worrying over; which is there had been a wee bit of 'something not feeling quite right'.

However Bert, and Sniper - a demo of how a few years can give wisdom to aid youthful outlooks - alluded to an almost cyclical nature of things happening on the forum from time to time.

Jonny alluded to a "refocusing", and that was pretty much the vibe I was going for. In a way, it feels like this OWC is such a great opportunity for every single person here - time allowing - to throw themselves into a challenge. Pia - rather articulately - gave a nod to how a challenge was a great platform to learn and evolve as a writer.

Now, SS - as many noted - can only take a person so far, and that it's what one makes of it. I should have been more articulate - I do tend to write in a laboured fashion - and got the point across that I do not think SS will get me work. The only way to get work is to learn and take every ounce of a lesson and then apply that in the real world. Ultimately, the film industry is a people industry, and while the lessons learned at the computer are good - it's the lessons learned with doing that make or break your goals.

I should have really spent more time with my initial post: Threads that are non-screenwriting focused. Those are great. Again, Sniper and Bert (I love you guys too much - apart from that one Jackson comment, Rob - it would seem, but I call it respect) made me LOL with a very witty exchange in a random thread.

The issue was more the tension or what my mother would call "atmosphere" that has seemingly been permeating the board of late. That was what I was trying to get at.

The main lesson from this thread? We have a small army of dedicated, talented and ambitious writers who will list SS in their Oscar speech

decadence's thoughtful suggestion of how we can maximise the quality, drive and passion of the writers here to up the learning ante is what I am left with.

Out of interest, do people have suggestions at how we can improve things?

- What features would be a good addition?
- I note a lot of people are unhappy with the submission of scripts that the authors have given no effort to - totally with you there, Rob.
- More inventive activities like Mike's screenwriting games?
- More group activities?
- Anything else?

Or maybe I am just a 28-year-old English upstart who needs to pipe down.

Whichever way, more views are welcome.

In a very English football way, a terrace-like mentality to end this overly lengthly post:

Simply Scripts 'til I die,
I'm Simply Scripts 'til I die,
I know I am, I'm sure I am,
I'm Simply Scripts 'til I die!

Oh, and a big thanks to Don for keeping SS alive, and to the guys who spend hours - of their own time - moderating and keeping everything together.

Andrew

Quoted from Andrew Or maybe I am just a 28-year-old English upstart who needs to pipe down.

At last, some wise words... LOL

Michel

At the end of the day, though, it still boils down to your getting out of it only what you put into it... Really, you can throw out all the extra stuff, since all that does is generate interest. There needs to be more reading of scripts going on.

Quoted from Andrew ...Bert and Sniper - a demo of how a few years can give wisdom to aid youthful outlooks ...

Bert, I think Andrew just called you old.

Andrew, your comment about the "atmosphere" is a valid one, I think. I've had this feeling for a while now that the tone around here has gotten a lot harsher than it use to be. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone and maybe I'm just imagining this but it seems that the fuses are rather short these days.

Regarding the non-scriptwriting threads, I think Don's (well earned) vacation left us sorta in a vacuum. You have to remember, Don spoils us. We're used to a script dump each week (twice if we're lucky) and all of a sudden, these script dumps weren't coming so we went like: "Ohmygod, what are we gonna do?". So we talked about Homosexuality and Michael Jackson (in seperate threads  ). I think those threads are okay. After all, not everything has to be about screenwriting.

Quoted from sniper Bert, I think Andrew just called you old.

Fuck you.  Look at the comma:

Quoted from Andrew However Bert, and Sniper - a demo of how a few years can give wisdom to aid youthful outlooks  - alluded to...

Don't include me in your decrepitude.

Quoted from sniper ...fuses are rather short these days.

Fuck you.

Quoted from Andrew decadence's thoughtful suggestion of how we can maximise the quality, drive and passion of the writers here to up the learning ante is what I am left with. Out of interest, do people have suggestions at how we can improve things? - What features would be a good addition? - I note a lot of people are unhappy with the submission of scripts that the authors have given no effort to - totally with you there, Rob. - More inventive activities like Mike's screenwriting games? - More group activities? - Anything else?

The submissions by people who give no effort to their scripts should not be discouraged IMO. They have made an effort, even if it's not to the standard one of the more experienced users would expect. I think we become a bit arrogant to say something isn't welcome just because it's not been properly formatted. It would be better to politely point out the thread that instructs them how to properly format the script and then either read their story, or simply say nothing. Everyone has to start somewhere and there are far worse things in the world than someone writing inferior scripts.

As for suggestions:

1. A Production File Thread. One in which we deal with these types of things:

Short film distributors. Many of us write shorts, how many of you have actually asked the distributors what type of shorts they want to sell? Good place to start No?

Funnily enough I'm going to be doing exactly that tomorrow and I will report back.

We can build up a list of distributors eg...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/filmnetwork/relatedlinksexhibitionanddistributionshorts#distributors

...and find the films they make so we get an idea of what's hot and what's not. If you are writing something in line with the films that get deals, you're more likely to get a sale from an on the ball producer I reckon.

Same thing with the major festivals. What kind of shorts win the Oscars? The Golden Bear. The horror festivals, whatever. Who are the companies winning the awards? We can build a list of up and coming directors and producers for you gentlemen to meet at your local festivals and garner email addresses for you to send ideas to.

Needless to say we can do the same thing with Features and make lists of the major Production Companies and decipher what kind of material they want.

Agents etc to approach.

Once we know the battleground properly, we can start to make mor specific battle plans to get people's stuff moved.

2. More challenges. The OWC's are great and should remain. In addition, I reckon I could stretch a few of you with individual challenges based on your individual styles. I've read an awful lot of scripts on here and I reckon I could set some hefty challenges that would test a few people. The challenges would focus on creating either commercial, high concept stories or characters, or on on forcing you towards a deeper type story that deals with powerful, but realistic stories. Or something else entirely. The challenges would be highly individual and as such would complement, rather than detract from the fantastic OWC. (They would have a longer time limit as well).

The scripts would then be available to our colleagues on SS for "appraisal".

If people are up for that, I will perhaps articulate my thoughts a bit more clearly at the time.

3. More group activities. There is huge scope to create numerous things here. We should experiment even more and see if we can come up with a way of harnessing so many diverse talents into a cohesive whole. How do writing teams work on the big shows?  The fact that we are many also means we have a means of spreading our creations widely. We should make more use of that. Everyone wants to join the industry eventually, but in the meantime it is not inconceivable to create an industry of our own. Or is it?

One other thing:

I like the off topic conversations. Inspiration is everywhere.

One thing that might be interesting would be to have debates about controversial topics that also look at the way those topics have been dealt with in the media or in films.

Eg What do you think of incest? You can talk about it,  think of films that have dealt with it and even discuss ideas that could make a premise for a film.