That feels like a legitimate question right now: How serious are you about getting into the film industry?

Are you here to learn about film screenwriting - to improve, and expand your writing? Are you here to pass some time, and learn a little? Do you see SS as a time killer? Do you truly believe you can get working in the industry? I am here to learn, and would love to build substantial contacts to get working - sure, it's going to be very hard, - but what's the point otherwise.

There are so many more pertinent Qs, but the core is: Has SS lost its abilities to teach /bring the best writing out of people?

Reading through a lot of the threads and the ability - or not - to take others' views has left me a little jaded of late. We have debates about how worthwhile shorts or features are, and it seems a lot of the point has been missed: we're here to learn and share, no? Everybody has something to bring to the table, I think.

It just feels like a lot of the learning is being sidetracked by 'other stuff', and it feels a great shame, 'cos surely the reason this community exists is down to a desire to get working in the industry?

On the other hand, the OWC is a great opportunity to get this show back on the road.

Curious what others think.

Andrew

Very serious.

Mind you I used to want to be an astronaut.

There there was that rock star thing.

Oh dear, I see a pattern emerging.

The tools are here to learn if you want to find them, Andrew.

However, I don't think the boards are a single-faceted community with one goal in mind.  You shouldn't expect everyone to be heading in the same direction you are, though you are likely to find a number of people that are.

I'm curious as to exactly what you think this "other stuff sidetracking people" is?  Perhaps you don't understand its purpose.

There's no doubt that the tools are there, Michael, it's more a question of whether they are being used. There have been a number of calls/suggestions for a more focused forum, and I am of the opinion it would be beneficial.

Secondly, there is no suggestion from me that we should be united in a single goal. My own goals do not need to be closely aligned to others, and this thread isn't an attempt to suggest my own are better in any way.

Quoted from mcornetto Perhaps you don't understand its purpose.

That's just unnecessarily patronising. However, that's fine 'cos I do not wish to get into a debate, but merely discuss what's on my mind in a civil manner. Btw, just to avoid confusion - I am not suggesting you are any different.

In terms of the "sidetracking", a lot of energy seems to be expended on issues that do not progress writing abilities - do you not agree? Maybe that's good for camaraderie, etc. I'm not making statements, but posing questions.

Now, I am not trying to govern, or to patronise others' motives for being here; but to gain an insight into why people are here - simple as that.

Andrew

I'm a bit confused by this as well, Andrew.  What exactly is your point here?

I am defintely here to learn, as well as to help.  I can't begin to tell you how much I've learned since I first found this site.  It's literally shocking, looking back.  I can point out a number of people who have helped me immensely and 1 is Michael Cornetto, for sure.

I feel this site is literally a Godsend, and I can't thank Don or the "Core Members" enough.

Please explain what you're talking about here.

I know what you are talking about, Andrew.  I am getting a little pissed off, too, about a few specific items.  But they eventually go away and people move on to something else -- sometimes productive, sometimes no -- but it is all part of the ebb and flow of the boards.

It happens on any forum, particularly one that is growing.

As you correctly noted, there are any number of reasons that people find themselves here, and they are not all congruent.

Part of this recent silliness I attribute to Don's huge, recent download of backed up scripts.  After so much time without much fresh material, people are geared to comment on darn near anything, and that is what they are doing.

It will pass.  There have been periods of upheaval in the past that would really make your head spin, had you been around.

And as far as the boards go, no matter what is going on, even if it is frustrating, it is seldom dull.

I'm just as serious about making it into the "BIZ" as I am about winning powerball... I just spend more on winning powerball than I do with writing.

Jokes aside... To me, I write great stories that I would go see and hope you'd go see. If they sell or make it big or someone wants to turn my ideas into moving pictures, by all means I welcome it with open arms.  

I just don't go to bed at night tap dancing or entertaining the thought or notion of me selling a script for a million or two. I know how good my content is... Does everyone else? I dunno... Maybe they should start to read my work and realize how good it really is.  < end the shameless plug.  And I am shameless.

Quoted from Dreamscale I can't begin to tell you how much I've learned since I first found this site.

I could say the same. And thanks to everyone here (especially Don - and God knows I'm not a brown nose) I improved my style after sevreal years. I think Bert could be here to testify. Thanks to SS, I'm beginning to put one foot into film industry, and woah, I love it!

Michel

I'm very, very, very serious. I'm still working on the feature I'm gonna use for my first film. But, I'm not waiting for some f***ing studio to except my work. As soon as I get out of my acting and editing courses, me, my bro and my friends are taking the fifty grand my  uncle left me to go film the thing. I'm taking it into my own hands. Hopefully it's a makes it big.

But then again, I still have some stuff to learn before I write a great story. That's one of the reasons I'm hear.

Quoted from mcornetto I'm curious as to exactly what you think this "other stuff sidetracking people" is?  Perhaps you don't understand its purpose.

If you think Andrew's taking a swipe at the Collaborative Exercises, Michael, then I'm going to stick my neck out and state that I don't think he is...

I value this site and its members very highly - it's thanks to you people that I actually attempted to start writing in a form I never had before, the 'screenplay', and now it's something I'm seriously looking at pursuing as a career (which I think should answer your 'how serious' question). But I too have felt things have been slightly different over the last month or so. Can't put my finger on why...there are also some newer members who I think have stirred things up slightly; when the author of 'The Vampire Revolution', diasaa (I think), stated that this forum had a reputation for being full of assholes, that stunned me a little.

But then again, I haven't been a member a year yet, so maybe these things are just cylical. I'm not going anywhere - this site, as I've said, is a central part of something of growing importance in my life - but I agree that the OWC may be a chance to...refocus, if you like. Then again, my frustration may be down to the fact that I haven't completed any original scripts for months now! I am truly in a writing rut...

While it would be awesome to "make it" into the "industry", I don't really hold out hope for that.  But that doesn't mean I don't try my hardest when it comes to my writing.  When it comes down to it, I don't care if my stuff gets made by someone fresh out of film school or a studio: I just want people to see it and hopefully enjoy it.

Aside from that, I come to SS not only to exchange script reviews (which is almost always rewarding), but I don't mind holding discussions with my fellow writers either.  It's actually really great to feel like part of a community, and sometimes you achieve that feeling by talking about things other than screenwriting.  I know it sounds cheesy, but there are people I feel like I really know here.  Not that I could tell you about their personal backgrounds, per se, but I know how they'll usually act/what they'll say, like I would any other acquaintance I'm familiar with.

So while we might get "off track" at one point or another, I don't really mind.  Because at the end of the day, this site really is about the writing, and I'm confident it will stay that way.

I'm pretty damn serious about breaking into the industry and I know a lot of other people here are too. In regards to people getting sidetracked, all I have to say is this is a message board. People aren't going to be focused on writing all the time. All that matters is how serious you are. You don't have to be sidetracked if you don't want to and in any case, there are always people here willing to help out other writers with their work. This site is absolutely golden in that regard. I think a good chunk of what I've learned about screenwriting, I've learned here. The same goes for me now having one foot in the industry door. No worries about what everyone else is doing. This site can always be a benefit so long as you allow it to be.

First off, Andrew, thanks for starting this thread.

I don't think that a person should think Simplyscripts or anyone/anyplace in particular holds the golden ticket to success.

We've been around this block of "Why do you write?" before.

My own personal opinion is that everyone writes for a variety of reasons. Same as any kind of art I think. Indeed, some people are deadly serious. So serious it hurts. Many of us probably have the perfectionist thing going on and that might be part of it.

Myself, I'm very serious about writing, but I also believe that the journey is, as they say, more important than the destination.

I often think: What good would it be for me to just be in the la-la land of solid screenwriting without the hard and long work that goes into it? This is the time to care about. Not some dreamy future. It might happen; it might not. The point is the work. Just the work and the attitude. That goes for everything; not just screenwriting.

IMHO, I think Simplyscripts is an excellent force that keeps us connected and provides us with tremendous opportunities. Just look at some of the talent around this place. Who wouldn't want to be around a group like this?!

Even if I struggle to raise the bar of my own writing and come up short, at least I'm around some real winners with a positive desire to give it all they got. There's an energy here that I feel and you can't put a price on something like that and yet-- it's free!!!

Just work. Don't worry about it is my advice. Just work everyday.

Sandra

Quoted from JonnyBoy If you think Andrew's taking a swipe at the Collaborative Exercises, Michael, then I'm going to stick my neck out and state that I don't think he is...

Definitely not attacking those exercises. While I do not participate myself, it would be foolish to not see the positive nature of them. They clearly are the type of thing that is great to see on the site. In short: I'm behind that type of activity 100%.

Oh, and this site has been responsible for 95% of what I - think(!) - know about screenwriting, and if I do get to work in the industry, then I'll be plugging this great website day in, day out.

Andrew

Quoted from rendevous Very serious. Mind you I used to want to be an astronaut. There there was that rock star thing. Oh dear, I see a pattern emerging.

You are making me laugh!!! Thanks!  

Sandra

Quoted from Dreamscale I can't begin to tell you how much I've learned since I first found this site.

  

You should have seen his first script.

Quoted from Michel I improved my style after sevreal years.

You should have seen his first script.

Quoted from James McClung I think a good chunk of what I've learned about screenwriting, I've learned here.

You should have seen his first script.  ("Kiss of the Locust", anyone?)



Point is, this board does what it is supposed to do for people who want to do it

But there is still room for people who don't.  No need to sweat it too much.  It takes all kinds of folks to make a community, and even your own family is bound to have a few people who rub you the wrong way.

I do not worry about it too much, really.  But then, I have a "delete" key haha.

Quoted from bert You should have seen his first script.

BTW, I never saw yours, hey DeleteKey Man! (that's a Superhero's name or what?!)

Michel

Quoted from bert I do not worry about it too much, really.  But then, I have a "delete" key haha.

I'm kinda glad I don't have a delete key. I'm not sure I could overcome the urge to use it too often. For that very reason I also don't own a gun. Everybody's a winner.

Quoted from bert You should have seen his first script.

Can we see these legendary first scripts? Are they still up?

Quoted from James McClung I think a good chunk of what I've learned about screenwriting, I've learned here.

I've learned more here than I did from reading umpteen books on screenwriting and that Story by McKee. I don't think I could have done this anywhere else. So, to all the folks who make it happen, I thank you kindly.

I'd tend to agree that you can get what you want from these boards. There's room for everyone. If you really don't like a script then why comment? I remember reading on here that a lack of comment can send a big message.

Or as that uncle character said in Life Is Beautiful "Silence is the loudest cry".

R

Andrew,

I believe it's really up to each of us what we want to get out of this place. I first became a member in September -05. I started out reading a bunch of features from people that for the most part never visited the forum.

Six months later I joined in a writing "challenge" hosted by Martin. The challenge was to write a script without any dialogue. I learned SO MUCH from that particular exercise that my scripts nowadays still have minimal dialogue.

I started taking more part on the boards...even argued with Don... hopefully he doesn't remember.     More importantly though was that I soon learned who had talent and/or took the craft seriously. I started reading their scripts whenever they were posted. They started reading mine. I learned so much I can't even begin to tell you.  I also read a boat load of produced scripts.  On the more "negative" side, it didn't take me long to realize that the odds of selling a script to Hollywood were pretty slim. Simple math will answer that question. I thought to myself, well, it's the same old thing as with everything else "if you want something done, you got to do it yourself". So what did I do? I decided to make my own films out of my scripts.  

I started looking for likeminded people in my area. Eventually I found a woman who had 20 years experience working in Hollywood. We got along great and formed a production company with another woman. So what am I doing now? I'm trying to get a reality show off the ground. Just so you know, I hate reality shows, but one thing leads to another... We went out to LA last month and met with some actual movers and shakers out there. Who would've thunk? It now looks like our show might happen. The money is there, we just need to iron things out due to some homeland security BS.

We also are in talks with CAA to be our agent!!!!!! Obviously this has nothing to do with my writing, but if I ever write something decent enough, you bet I will insist on them to at least look at something I wrote!  So what's my point here? My point is that you have to take things in your own hands. Reach out, network, don't be afraid to try something different. You never know where it might lead. Be brave. Don't be afraid to fail!! I believe in this 110% as a business person as well. It is better IMO to try and fail 50 times and succeed one time than to be too afraid to fail that you never try anything. I feel almost like a surfer. I'm just riding the waves. I have no idea how things will turn out, but I know I rather surf than sit on the beach watching others trying to stay on top of the waves.

I have over the last few years got to know some great people from here. Nowadays, a lot of the reading and reviewing happens via e-mail between trusted "friends". I've got to know some great people here. Some I've meet in person and others I hope to meet one day. In my mind, this place is amazing, but you have to work at it to get what you want out of it.

If you really want to learn and willing to do almost anything to move ahead, you can. All the tools are here, but it's up to you how to use them...

PS. rendevous...we all have a delete key to our own posts!  

Quoted from Grandma Bear even argued with Don...

Even did with me!

Quoted from Me PS. rendevous...we all have a delete key to our own posts!

Hmm. I should probably use that one more often. Especially after lubrication.

I can see what Andrew means...sort of. But that's the good thing about this site - everyone is entitled to their opinions, whether it be about writing styles, format, genre, etc.
I hope that maybe one of my scripts might be spotted but it's not an obsession. I like the fact that i have an idea and i write it down and something is created from nothing.
I enjoy chatting to other members about other subjects, and the international flavour is very interesting.
Perhaps the big influx of backlog scripts did produce some tension? Possibly. The only thing i want to comment on is the scripts that get posted and someone reviews them and we all know the writer isn't even a member? I think Don puts up 'outside' work to give some variety? Maybe he could enlighten us.
anyway that's all. back to work!!  cheers to all.

I write cause I like to. But that's not the topic. I think if you're really serious, you go live where the action is, or within a two hour drive.

I was hot after a young lady some (lots of) years ago and flew to LA to hang out with her, and she was hanging out with her brother, who just moved there, into a cheap as hell apartment. Her brother wanted to be a writer right out of high school, and had some success after living in LA. Tab Murphy I think his name was. I remember he'd be off every morning to go market himself; himself and his scraggly beard.

As far as SS goes in helping, I agree the tools are here, but you can lead a horse to water...

If you're talking about folks not reading and commenting on scripts to help out other writers, you know, it gets old reading stuff that you know isn't going anywhere as it is and when I get away from my walker and slip into my recliner, put those dentures in a glass, I gotta tell ya' I just want to relax a bit and read something really good.

I think the best advice for those writers wanting to get better is for them to read AS MANY produced scripts (contained here-in SS) and Black List type scripts as they can, so they can see how it's done. Break the script down, watch the movie. Read some books on it. Don't go hacking away at the forest with your plastic picnic knife when a little research and a trip to the store can yield a machete, or better yet, a BINDFORD Nitro-powered Weed Wacker 8870 with the patented 14-inch ultrarip-tipped tree muncher blade.

cloroxmartini has a point. I always wanted to be an actor, but after reading some of the produced scripts here on SS, I wanted to be a writer. Most the people here write for their own reason, but I think that if you really want to write some thing good and succesful, you should study already produced scripts more. I'm reading throught the top 100 list, and I'm learning alot.

P.S- I read some of the Syd Field book, that helps too.

My response to the question brought up in the original post is simply yes and no. I'm serious in the fact that I want to write stuff that people enjoy but on the other hand I know the stuff I write is not something that can easily be put on a Tv or Screen and that has never been my goal either.

This is a writing website that I have been part of for a long time and from day one my goal was to entertain people and from the people who read the stuff I write I get the feeling I accomplished that goal fairly well.

The whole film industry and I don't get along. Things come and go and I usually push them away because you don't have to be paid to be a writer and I just want to be a writer without any strings.

That is how I approached it from day one and I'm not bitter, angry or in competition with anyone for anything.

Hollywood can be a cruel world.  I don't want to live there, I just want too see my name under writer on the big screen in a few years.  I want to sit there and watch the movie I wrote in the theatre.

It has always been my dream. I know I'm not going to make the money right away or anything...  I could careless about the money right now, all I want is my name under the credits as writer.  Then it will be so much easier getting my other scripts through the door.

I've been writing all my life but being deployed overseas, well I got side tracked for awhile.  Now I'm just trying to finish what I started.

SS is a good way for me to get some honest feedback.  Great job with the site Don.

Good thread too.

Ghostwriter 22

SimplyScripts and the good users of it have helped me more than anyone else in my life. I am serious about trying to become a screenwriter and have one of my scripts sold.  This site has taught me basically everything I know about screenwriting today. Because of this site I have had two producers interested in two of my short, although one lost interest and i have no clue what's going on with the second one, I know that it's possible for me to get somewhere.

SS has helped me learn, of coure, sure, I don't really take people's advice when it comes to changing my ideas, because it doens't really matter what others want it matter what the writer wants, to some point, industry controls too much.

I've been writing since I was 12 and have come a long way. I'm not to interested in Hollywood, I'm more of the independent type. I've had about five, six, seven independent filmmakers ask me for my scripts, I aloud them to use my material but plenty have lost interest, which to me pushes me further away from the possiblity of allowing others to make films based on my work.

In fact I plan to film my first feature, produce, direct it myself, and yes write it, no one else can really undestand my work but me, I know what makes it work and what doesn't, and I don't like the idea of some one else completely destroying my vision. Other can say otherwise but that's how I feel.

To Xavier:

From Ed Wood 1994:

Orson Welles: Visions are worth fighting for. Why spend your life making someone else's dreams?

To Andrew Allen:

I am not serious about writing professionally.  The idea of seeing your name on the screen as writer of a major motion picture is very exciting, but I know in my heart that that world is not for me.  I love reading scripts, and writing scripts, but I know that I'll never be a professional writer.  I haven't been very active lately.  Mostly posting in the General Section(s)  I'm waiting for my rotation on the Soul Shadows, enjoying the input, then I may just disappear.  

A good friend has convinced me to get back into the art biz and wants me to illustrate his comic book idea, so I've been shaking the rust off.

If any of my posts have added to your dismay about the direction of the site, to you I apologize.

Quoted from Andrew Reading through a lot of the threads and the ability - or not - to take others' views has left me a little jaded of late. We have debates about how worthwhile shorts or features are, and it seems a lot of the point has been missed: we're here to learn and share, no? Everybody has something to bring to the table, I think.

I hear you, Double-A, and I agree completely. I'm no saint myself, I really do try to stay out of those threads you're referring to but...it can be damn hard, you know? But we can't make somebody want to learn (unfortunately) and often that subsequently spirals a discussion into ridicule and pointless back-and-forths (and while that surely can be some fun reading, it just clogs up the board).

The inability to take criticism will always be around but, fortunately, you can spot those writers a mile away. The trick though is to just ignore them (cos it's like Bert said, they will go away eventually and die in peace) and to concentrate your time on the ones who really are here to learn/share/teach.

My main problem is when people posts scripts they themselves call "shit" and "no good", and it seems like the board has been bombarded with that lately. They get two middle fingers from me cos they're pissing on Don and the rest of us.

Quoted from Andrew Has SS lost its abilities to teach /bring the best writing out of people?

I don't think it has - to those who really want it. The others, well, to each its own, I guess.

To answer your original question, yes, I'm very serious about my writing. Am I serious about making it in "Biz"? Sure, but not naively so.

Cheers
Rob

Quoted from Andrew That feels like a legitimate question right now: How serious are you about getting into the film industry? Are you here to learn about film screenwriting - to improve, and expand your writing? Are you here to pass some time, and learn a little? Do you see SS as a time killer? Do you truly believe you can get working in the industry? I am here to learn, and would love to build substantial contacts to get working - sure, it's going to be very hard, - but what's the point otherwise. There are so many more pertinent Qs, but the core is: Has SS lost its abilities to teach /bring the best writing out of people? Reading through a lot of the threads and the ability - or not - to take others' views has left me a little jaded of late. We have debates about how worthwhile shorts or features are, and it seems a lot of the point has been missed: we're here to learn and share, no? Everybody has something to bring to the table, I think. It just feels like a lot of the learning is being sidetracked by 'other stuff', and it feels a great shame, 'cos surely the reason this community exists is down to a desire to get working in the industry? On the other hand, the OWC is a great opportunity to get this show back on the road. Curious what others think. Andrew

It's clear to me that SS is still a great resource for the learning writer.

Your problem seems to be more a question of expectation. There is only so much a website can do for you. SS is not an agency or a Production Company and there is a limit to what it can give you.

It can't guarantee that you will come up with a sellable idea or even really show you how to sell a script.

It may help, for clarity's sake, for you to present some constructive ideas that we can discuss. It's not necessary for the site to change direction in any way, but we can have a group of us concentrating on certain things that you may feel you want, and that would be beneficial to writers at a certain stage. There's a body of people on here with growing experience of writing and production.

And a body of people with or without experience and just a little focus has a lot more power than people may realise. I do think that there is a lot more we could do together if we thought things through and I'd be happy to be part of that process.

I think SS does it's job and it does it well.  If you look over your first script and your last you will surely see a huge difference in quality, I know I would.  The help from the core members here is terrific and has helped me improve my writing skills without a doubt.  Whether I take writing seriously is another thing, somedays I do and somedays I don't.  Somedays I feel I've written some great pages and I could make it in the business and then there are the days when nothing works and I think I should have stuck to my original plan of becoming the worlds greatest Super Bomberman player.

I knew nothing about writing screenplays before I registered for this site. I was so bad, my first attempt at writing a script was on MS Word and turned out like a format disaster. After joining here, I've learned so much about scripts, how they are structured, the importance of good screenwriting software, all the rules of formatting, everything from this site. I do try to write every day so I guess I am pretty serious about it. Spelling and Grammar have never been my strong points so I don't hold much hope, but if I can write a great story, who knows?

I have noticed the recent threads but still regard this site as the best, better than any of the alternatives. Recently, on ScriptShadow, on the week he judged scripts from writers with representation, check the comments on them from fellow 'writers'. Some of the posts were like "This script is sh*t, I can't believe this is getting him meetings around town". Is that jealousy or what? Not just one comment, but hundreds, from writers jealous that this guy is having some sort of sucess with his script and they're not. Imagine if this site was full of these people? I'm glad it's not, people here actually help and for me that's why it's the best.

Also, on one of the ScriptShadow comments page, lots of them, including the guy who runs the site, slate Simply Scripts and even quote dialogue from some scripts on here. I wouldn't take anything seriously though, the feedback on here is more detailed and helpful than the reviews on spec scripts on his site.

I've been on here since 2004, and by and large, the most useful feature is the people who are willing to read and comment on your work. Everyone's comments are useful because everyone has their own opinions about what works and what doesn't. My work has been equally torn apart and praised. And the tearing and praising has even happened on the same draft of the same script before. Even my writing style has changed since I first got on here and gotten that precious feedback. The feedback showed me what I was doing wrong on the scripts I'd done, and then allowed me to do something new to use that feedback going forward.

Are there a lot of sidebar conversations? Oh yes. But every discussion board will have that. Sometimes I've participated (and occasionally made it worse), but on the whole, I just read it and move on with a cursory eye-roll.

You can get out of this site what you need to. You can be one of those people who are known for killer feedback (as I used to be known before life took over and I lost a lot of time to read), and to leave that kind of feedback doesn't take much. You just have to read and comment. I learned as much by commenting on others' work as I did from receiving feedback on my own. After all, you can learn from others' mistakes as well. You can tell someone else what went wrong and realize that you have exactly the same problem in an area of your own work.

Oh yes, how serious am I? Quite serious. I had people critique my query letters once to try and get some help with being noticed. That didn't work, and getting into the industry that way is more frustrating than anything else. It takes a lot of self-motivation to achieve anything. Best bets on being noticed are probably contests or just writing and shooting something yourself. At least you'll appear dedicated.

So far, I've shot two of my own scripts and once I get done with post on my second, I plan on moving on to a third. I've also got a couple of concept albums from musicals I've written in the works as I'm writing novels based on my screenplays. You get in however you can get in, and I'm trying every avenue available.

So, the bottom line is that I believe the most valuable resource on these boards are the people. Give feedback. Get feedback. They're both equally valuable. That script read exchange is more than just a nice thing to do. It's part of the learning experience.

If I can stop working nine to five and make enough money to retire then it has been worth it.

We all have ups and downs.  If we can improve and get somewhere then it'll be for the greater good.  And the community here is the first stop to say my thanks if I make it.

Quoted from sniper My main problem is when people posts scripts they themselves call "shit" and "no good", and it seems like the board has been bombarded with that lately. They get two middle fingers from me cos they're pissing on Don and the rest of us.

I agree with you here because it takes away from people who actually need the feedback.

The message boards should reward the people who use them. One day your script is on top the next it's on page 8 and people are wary on what to read and what not to read.

Quoted from sniper My main problem is when people posts scripts they themselves call "shit" and "no good", and it seems like the board has been bombarded with that lately. They get two middle fingers from me cos they're pissing on Don and the rest of us.

Hey Rob, I really wonder about who you're taliking about?

I don't want to name names but check out a few of the newly uploaded scripts, Michel.

There have been some very interesting and thoughtful responses.

Thankfully, this thread didn't cause too much grief.

The single thing that unites everyone - from the evidence within this thread - is a gratitude for a place to congregate and learn. Learn about screenwriting, meet lovely people and to find focus. SS can only be as good as its members, and - I think - that's why it's highly regarded by all.

Now, unfortunately, my initial post didn't articulate my thoughts clearly - there has never been a suggestion from me that this site is not a great place to learn and benefit from the experiences of others. The point was whether or not we has lost some focus, and - thankfully - some others have felt a twinge of what I had been worrying over; which is there had been a wee bit of 'something not feeling quite right'.

However Bert, and Sniper - a demo of how a few years can give wisdom to aid youthful outlooks - alluded to an almost cyclical nature of things happening on the forum from time to time.

Jonny alluded to a "refocusing", and that was pretty much the vibe I was going for. In a way, it feels like this OWC is such a great opportunity for every single person here - time allowing - to throw themselves into a challenge. Pia - rather articulately - gave a nod to how a challenge was a great platform to learn and evolve as a writer.

Now, SS - as many noted - can only take a person so far, and that it's what one makes of it. I should have been more articulate - I do tend to write in a laboured fashion - and got the point across that I do not think SS will get me work. The only way to get work is to learn and take every ounce of a lesson and then apply that in the real world. Ultimately, the film industry is a people industry, and while the lessons learned at the computer are good - it's the lessons learned with doing that make or break your goals.

I should have really spent more time with my initial post: Threads that are non-screenwriting focused. Those are great. Again, Sniper and Bert (I love you guys too much - apart from that one Jackson comment, Rob - it would seem, but I call it respect) made me LOL with a very witty exchange in a random thread.

The issue was more the tension or what my mother would call "atmosphere" that has seemingly been permeating the board of late. That was what I was trying to get at.

The main lesson from this thread? We have a small army of dedicated, talented and ambitious writers who will list SS in their Oscar speech

decadence's thoughtful suggestion of how we can maximise the quality, drive and passion of the writers here to up the learning ante is what I am left with.

Out of interest, do people have suggestions at how we can improve things?

- What features would be a good addition?
- I note a lot of people are unhappy with the submission of scripts that the authors have given no effort to - totally with you there, Rob.
- More inventive activities like Mike's screenwriting games?
- More group activities?
- Anything else?

Or maybe I am just a 28-year-old English upstart who needs to pipe down.

Whichever way, more views are welcome.

In a very English football way, a terrace-like mentality to end this overly lengthly post:

Simply Scripts 'til I die,
I'm Simply Scripts 'til I die,
I know I am, I'm sure I am,
I'm Simply Scripts 'til I die!

Oh, and a big thanks to Don for keeping SS alive, and to the guys who spend hours - of their own time - moderating and keeping everything together.

Andrew

Quoted from Andrew Or maybe I am just a 28-year-old English upstart who needs to pipe down.

At last, some wise words... LOL

Michel

At the end of the day, though, it still boils down to your getting out of it only what you put into it... Really, you can throw out all the extra stuff, since all that does is generate interest. There needs to be more reading of scripts going on.

Quoted from Andrew ...Bert and Sniper - a demo of how a few years can give wisdom to aid youthful outlooks ...

Bert, I think Andrew just called you old.

Andrew, your comment about the "atmosphere" is a valid one, I think. I've had this feeling for a while now that the tone around here has gotten a lot harsher than it use to be. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone and maybe I'm just imagining this but it seems that the fuses are rather short these days.

Regarding the non-scriptwriting threads, I think Don's (well earned) vacation left us sorta in a vacuum. You have to remember, Don spoils us. We're used to a script dump each week (twice if we're lucky) and all of a sudden, these script dumps weren't coming so we went like: "Ohmygod, what are we gonna do?". So we talked about Homosexuality and Michael Jackson (in seperate threads  ). I think those threads are okay. After all, not everything has to be about screenwriting.

Quoted from sniper Bert, I think Andrew just called you old.

Fuck you.  Look at the comma:

Quoted from Andrew However Bert, and Sniper - a demo of how a few years can give wisdom to aid youthful outlooks  - alluded to...

Don't include me in your decrepitude.

Quoted from sniper ...fuses are rather short these days.

Fuck you.

Quoted from Andrew decadence's thoughtful suggestion of how we can maximise the quality, drive and passion of the writers here to up the learning ante is what I am left with. Out of interest, do people have suggestions at how we can improve things? - What features would be a good addition? - I note a lot of people are unhappy with the submission of scripts that the authors have given no effort to - totally with you there, Rob. - More inventive activities like Mike's screenwriting games? - More group activities? - Anything else?

The submissions by people who give no effort to their scripts should not be discouraged IMO. They have made an effort, even if it's not to the standard one of the more experienced users would expect. I think we become a bit arrogant to say something isn't welcome just because it's not been properly formatted. It would be better to politely point out the thread that instructs them how to properly format the script and then either read their story, or simply say nothing. Everyone has to start somewhere and there are far worse things in the world than someone writing inferior scripts.

As for suggestions:

1. A Production File Thread. One in which we deal with these types of things:

Short film distributors. Many of us write shorts, how many of you have actually asked the distributors what type of shorts they want to sell? Good place to start No?

Funnily enough I'm going to be doing exactly that tomorrow and I will report back.

We can build up a list of distributors eg...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/filmnetwork/relatedlinksexhibitionanddistributionshorts#distributors

...and find the films they make so we get an idea of what's hot and what's not. If you are writing something in line with the films that get deals, you're more likely to get a sale from an on the ball producer I reckon.

Same thing with the major festivals. What kind of shorts win the Oscars? The Golden Bear. The horror festivals, whatever. Who are the companies winning the awards? We can build a list of up and coming directors and producers for you gentlemen to meet at your local festivals and garner email addresses for you to send ideas to.

Needless to say we can do the same thing with Features and make lists of the major Production Companies and decipher what kind of material they want.

Agents etc to approach.

Once we know the battleground properly, we can start to make mor specific battle plans to get people's stuff moved.

2. More challenges. The OWC's are great and should remain. In addition, I reckon I could stretch a few of you with individual challenges based on your individual styles. I've read an awful lot of scripts on here and I reckon I could set some hefty challenges that would test a few people. The challenges would focus on creating either commercial, high concept stories or characters, or on on forcing you towards a deeper type story that deals with powerful, but realistic stories. Or something else entirely. The challenges would be highly individual and as such would complement, rather than detract from the fantastic OWC. (They would have a longer time limit as well).

The scripts would then be available to our colleagues on SS for "appraisal".

If people are up for that, I will perhaps articulate my thoughts a bit more clearly at the time.

3. More group activities. There is huge scope to create numerous things here. We should experiment even more and see if we can come up with a way of harnessing so many diverse talents into a cohesive whole. How do writing teams work on the big shows?  The fact that we are many also means we have a means of spreading our creations widely. We should make more use of that. Everyone wants to join the industry eventually, but in the meantime it is not inconceivable to create an industry of our own. Or is it?

One other thing:

I like the off topic conversations. Inspiration is everywhere.

One thing that might be interesting would be to have debates about controversial topics that also look at the way those topics have been dealt with in the media or in films.

Eg What do you think of incest? You can talk about it,  think of films that have dealt with it and even discuss ideas that could make a premise for a film.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films What do you think of incest?

What do I think of incest?  Glad you asked!

As a whole, I think it's on the level of homosexuality in terms of immorality.

Hmm, we should make a thread about this.  

Really good ideas, Dec!

I too was thinking that a drive towards real collaboration would be a good move for the community (as you mentioned in point 3). Obviously Michael's games are fantastic - really fun, and actually a good exercise to continue storylines and use characters that aren't your own. And the ongoing series we have - SoulShadows, Michel's Seven Deadly Sins - they're really good initiatives too.

However... couple of weeks ago I nearly started a thread to float the idea of some sort of Miniseries Challenge. I hadn't worked out all the details, but thought that it would involve groups of perhaps three or four who could work together to produce a series of perhaps six to eight episodes. Each team would elect a Show Runner (as they have on real writing teams, I believe) who would lead the team and make the ultimate creative decisions, but everything would be worked out by the group. All they'd be provided with is a genre - say, comedy - and the beginnings of an idea - say, 'Difficult preparations for a big event'. The rest would be up to them.

But I didn't post, because I wasn't sure it would work. It would take months, and require people to commit to a certain level of consistent engagement on the forum for that time (which might be tricky since we have real lives too). Even so...does it sound like the kind of thing people might be interested in?

Some very good suggestions there, decadence.

Particularly like the idea of trying to build some notion of what distributors are looking for shorts-wise.

Not really sure what the mechanics of that idea would be Jonny? Sounds very interesting, however. The idea of working something collaboratively is very appealing - but, as you note, it does depend on members' already hectic schedules.

Maybe there could be some sort of monthly thing - a challenge of varying degrees? The only thing with increased activity is what extra strain that would put on Don to actually get these things up on the site? Ultimately, he's working hard on the site, so to what degree he feels extra scripts would be a good idea seems a deal breaker maybe.

Oh, and Bert/Sniper - you are both like a Peter Pan character; infinite wisdom which belies your youthful looks

EDIT: Snipes, you definitely still look like you would kill at a football match.

Andrew

Dec, I think your ideas are great, and I welcome them all.

Andrew, what happened to yourhobbit avatar?  That was hilarious!

Quoted from Dreamscale Andrew, what happened to yourhobbit avatar?  That was hilarious!

I have some form of avatar-changing OCD.

Agreed, however - that hobbit picture was brilliant.

It shall return one day.

Andrew

Quoted from Andrew Not really sure what the mechanics of that idea would be Jonny?

As I say, I never really got into the nitty-gritty of how it would work, but I did think it could go something like this:

1. Theme and genre are announced. Anyone who wants to enter has 5 days to split up into teams (or, alternatively, everyone's names are thrown into one big hat and teams are picked at random), elect a Show Runner, and work out the order they want to write in (Show Runners would write the Series Premieres).

2. The teams are announced. Teams then have 7 days to work out characters, the main idea of their series, start tossing around storylines, etc. At the end of that week, the series titles are announced.

3. Teams then produce an episode every 21 days. That could be split up like so:
- The team member whose turn it is gets to pitch the storyline for their episode. The other members then discuss it, and the Show Runner makes a decision on what, roughly, will happen. This could take 5 days.
- The writer then has 10 days to write their episode and send it to their colleagues for feedback. These drafts could be sent as PDFs to team members' private inboxes, in order to minimise the amount posted on the site.
- The remaining 6 days could be used for team members to make suggestions on where they think the episode could be improved. The writer could make as many revisions as they want before the final deadline.

4. The episode is posted. Then the process of point 3 starts again.

So basically, if we had teams of three producing six episodes, that'd be 18 weeks plus the initial twelve days...just under twenty weeks for the whole challenge.

I know that sounds vague and scrappy. But I think that at the end we'd have learnt how to really write collaboratively, and also, with a bit of luck, might have some recognisable 'product' that could be shopped around, if people wanted to do that.

Again, I must stress that I'd never worked this idea out fully. But I did think that it seemed vaguely intriguing. Although I couldn't help but think if it was THAT good an idea, it would already be happening...

Sounds very interesting and workable to me, Jonny.

Between November '09 and February/March '10, I will be in a perpetual state of travelling, until I resettle in Oz for a year, so that could upset the applecart for my participation; however, would be great to get something like that off the ground if others fancy it.

decadence, would you mind embellishing your ideas re: 2, 'cos from where I stand there appears to be an interest.

Andrew

I remember three years ago there was a LOT more crap and arguments going on. None of it had anything to do with screenwriting. We had some really argumentative people here back then... One in particular comes to mind that was eventually banned.

Don also tried something new in order to get some more reading going. For two weeks or so, all boards except for script boards were locked. The only posts you could make were in script threads. Did it make people read more? I think so, but at the same time it was very quiet here. Conclusion...as annoying as some of the crap threads in general chat and the like are, maybe they are vital to the boards.

Also don't forget we've had the Script Club too, which is something I liked.  

Michel... I argued with you?  

Dec and Jonny you make some really cool suggestions. I like the later one especially with the ongoing team challenge. Maybe it could be used to write some TV stuff?

However the only prob with team stuff is the fact we are all over the globe. the january OWC in pairs was fun, but it was hard with the different time zones.

Um, also, the Script Club was good, but I always felt we should've done more stuff by the SS people. If a new feature(or short- perhaps alternate) was randomly selected it would get more reads. I dunno, just a thought.

anyway, good kudos to Andrew for begining this whole discussion. when you are over here I'll take you to an Aussie Rules game.

Quoted from stevie when you are over here I'll take you to an Aussie Rules game.

I'll hold you to that! Oh, and bend your ear about how I don't get the rules! Haha.

Andrew

Quoted from stevie I like the later one especially with the ongoing team challenge. Maybe it could be used to write some TV stuff? However the only prob with team stuff is the fact we are all over the globe. the january OWC in pairs was fun, but it was hard with the different time zones.

I think trying to write a TV miniseries would be a good aim. And, if everyone got stuck in, I don't think it would be too hard, either. The only downside I can see with the current Collab. exercises we have is that they don't produce a real end product, a script that has the best bits of everyone's ideas in. They're not meant to - they're games, and I took part in the last one, and it was both useful and terrific fun. But this would be something different.

As for getting around the timezones...well, though I said teams could be randomly chosen, I think people picking their own groups would be better. I'm sure people here know a few people they wouldn't mind trying to work with. And if that means that people in the same timezone end up working together, then that'd be fine.

From my recent experience at a television convention in LA, if you have a comedy show, you'll have no problem getting read! All the people I met that had TV comedy pilots ran out of hard copies...

They couldn't get enough.

What's that noise? I can hear keyboards drumming while booking flights in Tasmania. They'd be drumming here too if I had one.

RV, are you meaning me? I'm there! (meaning "I'll be there!!!" not "I am there")

Tommy lad, never one to miss one of my references. Well, maybe that was true before I posted that To Be business. Business though is surprisingly good.

This Andrew is one of the more interesting and intriguing threads around here. For that you're to be commended. As is your Avatar. Glad to see you made safely off that confounded ship to dry land and brought a smile.

I think Me is someone who's found success within this business. I read her posts very carefully for success in screenwriting is a bloody rare thing. She is also a bloody good writer. Pardon swearing. I just reread that fucking script that couldn't fucking stop it. It's absolutely fascinating and hilarious.

R

Eventually I'll direct in the industry. What my goal is is to both direct and write.

Aaron,

Excellent goals. I mean no disrespect by this but see my previous post early on this thread. I did think I'd be playing rock music in space one day when I was a kid. I'm still bloody well disappointed it's unlikely to happen. There's always hope. Why do I now think of Shawshank?

I think To Be a director is something most screenwriters seek. It means you can completely control a film. A prime is example is the genius that was Kubrick.

I don't really seek to be anywhere near him in terms of reputation, to do so would be very foolish. Hell, I'll be lucky to be the new Uwe Boll. Come to think of it making a living doing something good in film would be a fucking start for me.

But to mentioned in the same sentence as Kubrick by someone who is really up there would fulfill many a fantasy.

R

Kubrick started out as a photographer. That's where he learned "cinematography". I love his work.

Indeed he did Pia. I worship all his work, EWS did need some fine tuning though, sadly he left us before he could finish the job properly.

The photography led to those low angles he was so fond of.

I hear Fincher is trying out his 'multiple take' technique. He's about the only one I can see coming anywhere close to SK at the mo.

A question for you while you're here. A very general reply will suffice.

Do you make a living, or anywhere near, out of scripts?

It's a more loaded question than intended but I think you get the idea.

Quoted from rendevous It means you can completely control a film.

Right. I would also prefer directing stuff I wrote. Not that fellow writers' scripts aren't good enough (trust me that's not the reason) it's just it seems it would be easier to direct something you wrote, since you already saw the film in your head.

Quoted from Grandma Bear We had some really argumentative people here back then... One in particular comes to mind that was eventually banned.

Holy smoke, Phil got banned?  

Quoted from sniper Holy smoke, Phil got banned?

Wow!    I never would have believed it.

Andrew, I've done some searching and I think I've found the source of your woes.  Don't let it get to you.  As you work and strive to meet your goals in life, you're always going to run into people who seem to want to drag you down.  People who don't seem to care about the same things which are so very important to you, and even seem to make a mockery of these things.  You just have to stay focused.  It's your goals that matter, not theirs, or lack thereof.  Become like a duck, and let it slide right off your back, my friend.  You'll be just fine.

Alright guys. Here is a list of short film distributors worldwide.

http://en.unifrance.org/catalogue/distributeurs-CM.pdf

It's pretty useful because it has website links. The European countries tend to respect shorts a bit more than the fromer Anglo colonies  , but they are all represented.

Don't think there is much scope for writers to contact the distributors personally, so a clandestine approach might be more in order. Surf the web and report back.

What kind of films seem to get the deals?

Quoted from Andrew Sounds very interesting and workable to me, Jonny. Between November '09 and February/March '10, I will be in a perpetual state of travelling, until I resettle in Oz for a year, so that could upset the applecart for my participation; however, would be great to get something like that off the ground if others fancy it. decadence, would you mind embellishing your ideas re: 2, 'cos from where I stand there appears to be an interest. Andrew

Because the challenge is for individuals, there would be no set format as such. I can tailor the challenge to your respective strengths, weaknesses, likes and dislikes, so you get out of it what you want the most, or what I, in my subjective opinion, think you need the most  .

Maybe a forumista has tended to write in only one particular genre and fancies being challenged to write another one. Or perhaps you only write horror in which case the challenge would be more about forcing you to be more original, or to go bigger with your ideas.

I could start a thread looking for volunteers. We could start with a general discussion about where you see yourself, the type of stories that you like, what people have said are your strengths, what you think you need to work on, where you want to end up, that kind of thing. I'll look over the scripts that you have posted on here, look at what others have noted as well and set an interesting challenge that fits the criteria.

The rules that are then set for the script would be designed to help you achieve your individual goal. So, if you want to create a low budget horror piece to attract an independent producer, the task will focus on that. If you are looking to create a high concept action piece that you can expand into a feature, the challenge will focus on that.

It's hard not to be vague, because the whole idea is that they will be for the individual, so it will be based on their particular needs/desires/worries.

Maybe I can start to refine the challenge as it goes on (if there is any interest) into categories.

EG :
1 Lucky Dip. You can ask to be given a random challenge. I will choose a genre, a topic and present a particular, measurable challenge. Fellow SSers could then adjudge
2.Hollywood Producers Pitch. Production company is looking for high concept, original genre ideas.  
3.Independent Producers pitch. Local filmmaker is looking for a low budget script to present at festivals

The categories will be non exclusive though. IE you may want to create a high concept, low budget film.

The challenge would have its own thread and would be open to discussion, so we can discuss interesting ways of creating stories, characters etc

I think the best way of explaining it would be to do it. Would you like to be the first guinea pig?

Quoted from rendevous I think Me is someone who's found success within this business. I read her posts very carefully for success in screenwriting is a bloody rare thing. She is also a bloody good writer. Pardon swearing.

No success with screenwriting, but screenwriting lead to other things.

Quoted from rendevous A question for you while you're here. A very general reply will suffice. Do you make a living, or anywhere near, out of scripts?

I don't make any money from scripts, but I might make some if the reality show happens which it looks like it will.  I can't write features worth a darn so I'm pretty sure I'll never make any money that way. Realizing that might be why I didn't mind trying something else.

PS. Phil was not banned. There were other people here that liked to "voice their opinions". One was Alan, then there was Chris and some other guy. I think the mods had a full time job keeping the boards under control back then... Ahhh, the good ole days!  

decadence,

That sounds like a great idea to me. The categories were also particularly interesting. Well, rather than stealing the thunder of a new thread, here are my scripts that sit on SS, and I quite like the idea of being a guinea pig Some say I have a weird little face anyway

Cruiseaholics
House of Usher
Reciprocation

My little writing fingers are gaining dust, so whatever you think is appropriate, dec.

Andrew

This does sound very interesting. Good to see new stuff going on!

Consider me in as well, Dec.  I'd like to discuss this stuff in more detail via PM or E-Mail when the time is right.

I think you've got some great ideas here.

We actually discussed the idea of a One Month Challenge where the goal was a full on screenplay. The reason for this sort of idea is because when a producer wants a script, they are the ones with the idea they want produced, and when they ask for the F13 knockoff, what do you do with the brilliant character driven horror piece you already have? Obviously, you shelve it, write the knock off, and then pimp your brilliant script after you've buddied up to the producer with your equally brilliant F13 knockoff.

One thing we've seen come through here are people wanting scripts. They usually drop in, say "I want such and such" and then move on when someone can't immediately produce or indicate that they can put together that idea. I also get emails stating that so-n-so is looking for, say, a crime thriller set at a bed and breakfast in Costa Rica. Yes, that's an actual idea someone was looking for once. I tossed some ideas together, but I never wrote it out. The kick-in-the-butt on that one was that about a month later, I saw the same request cycle through again. If only I'd written it, I'd have something!

But that's my thought. Kick off a one month challenge based on an idea that comes out of the free Inktip email complete with whatever requirement they're actually looking for. The ultimate goal is to have something producable, but the point is to write a viable script in as short a time as possible. Not everyone would be able to do it, granted, but it hasn't been done yet, it would be great practice, and a real dose of reality..

They are doing the "feature in one month" thing at DD right now. Quite a few people are taking part. They seem to inspire each other too. Which is great.

I personally do not like the idea of a short time frame like 1 month.  Why push it, and have the script suffer because of it?

I like the way Dec is going about this, and I'd like to hear more from him.

Sorry George, but I just don't like this idea.

DD, P?

To be fair, Dream, I think you made that POV pretty clear last time around!

dec's idea is great and the OMC could be great as well. From reading last time - it felt like the idea got binned 'cos you were so against it, but if enough people want to participate, then I don't see the problem?

It's the challenge with it as much as anything. Again, between November and March-ish, I wouldn't be able to participate, but would happily do so outside of those times.

Andrew

I said this before when we were talking about the OMC, and I still believe it:

The OMC can only be seen as a positive exercise.  It gets you thinking and working hard, and in the end you either have:

1) a fully completed script that's really great

2) a fully completed script that's OK to horrible (but who cares, because you can go back and polish it now!)

or

3) part of a script that you still put a lot of effort into that you can now make complete

Either way, you leave with something valuable.  But if your goal is to "win", then your priorities are messed up

I like to think I'm pretty serious. I'm going to college for writing next month. So excited!!!

~Zack~

Hopefully they'll teach you how to structure a sentence.

Quoted from Zack I'm going to college for writing next month.

What the hell does that even mean, Zack?  

I don't like the idea of a OMC for the sake that it implies people need an organized, community "event" to write a feature length script. It's ironic because it seems like the people discussing it are the people who have enough drive to write features themselves anyway. So why not just do it? Why a contest or an exercise just to accomplish something everyone can do (or should be able to do) on their own time?

I stumbled across another community where they wrote a feature, voted on certain points in the story, voted on keeping characters, and pretty much voted on every aspect in the feature.  It sounded like a rewrite nightmare and not one that I could be bother participating in.  

But maybe others here would love that idea?

Just throwing an idea into the mix.