Pia makes an immaculate point here, which I woula ignored to watch Matchpoint which I just got on DVD, hang on, I'll be telling you what I had for dinner and the state of the Irish Economy next, er...

Oh yeah, the difference between Pro and Amateur.

When I used to manage bands, I'm talking small scale, bottom feeders, if you will. But I was good. Always made it pay.

You can tell as soon as they walk out to play. I gotta see the entrance, because in that is everything you need to know. I knew before they played a note if they had it. And I was always proved right. Dido is a prime example. I knew, before most of the Uk did she was gonna be massive. Hey, hate her or love her, she made good tunes.

The same logic applies to scripts. Which is what Me hits on. Some folks got it, and some folks ain't. The difference is small. And huge. It's difficult to put your finger on. But if you been in the business long enough it's easy to spot.

Reservoir Dogs says it best

Quoted from RD's Steve Buscemi aka Mr. Pink Some fellas are lucky and some ain't.

I would say the separation is geographic - if we're talking about Hollywood film production.  Most professional screenwriters live in LA along with the filmmakers, readers and crew who make the films.  

This gives them the advantage of being immersed in the culture that can greenlight their script.   They talk the same talk and walk the same walk and therefore their scripts connect with the production people that matter.  And if it doesn't connect right away then they can easily do meetings to make it work.

Rendevous, I think you're right too. It goes for all types of businesses. The people that are pros and are in the business only need a glance and they can tell. I used to be in the sport horse business and even though I was not a big player, I can still tell by just looking at a horse if it has what it takes to be a good jumper or dressage horse. I can tell just by conformation if it has potential or not. If I think it might, I want to see it move. If it passes that test too, I want to see it ridden. I imagine that's how it is when you've been in the business for a while. Regardless of what business it is.

My two cents about SS, unproduced and produced scripts.
The difference for me is momentum.
I'm tired of reactionary protagonists that stumble from one plot convenience to the next.
I want characters with goals that take steps to achieve those objectives.
I learn much more about characters by how they go about reaching their goals.
You learn nothing when they are always escaping or reacting to plot convenience.
I want to see the dilemmas they face as they strive for their goals.
I want to see the consequences of how they chose to deal with those dilemmas.
Dilemmas/moral conflict are sorely lacking in most scripts these days.

Regards,
E.D.

Well...surprise, surprise, I've got to disagree again here.

Although I do agree with Ren and Pia about being able to "see" that a band has potential or a horse has the right stuff..it goers much further than that.

If a band has never played in front of a certain size audience, it could take them a few times to understand what they're in to.  It's a learning curve that can easily be overcome with talent.  There are s o many examples of young musicians who just hadn't found their stride yet  that did with time.

If a horse or whatever doesn't have the genes or whatever to make it a potentially great horse, it shouldn't be competing with those that do...but I I'm not a big horse person.

Take an athlete...these days, pro sports teams are looking at younger and younger athletes, long before they're ready to go pro, and trying to do what they can to "groom" them along.

Writing is completely different.  I do agree that it's easy to rad a single page or even a single sentence and get an idea of the talent or potential of the writer, but that doesn't mean that from there, there's any big difference, base on skill or talent.

Even terrible writers can be great screenwriters.  It's completely true.  Do I think this is a good thing? No, I don't.  But it's not for me to say.

Quoted from rendevous Delusional. I did that up in Donegal recently, after a skinful. Couldn't find the fucking rented house after a skinful, thought I was gonna die. Happily I survived. Got a script outta it. However, I try and keep it just to the characters. Nice to see you about round the boards again Seay, keep it cooking as ya do. Heway ya bollix ya. HR xo

What the heck is a skinfull?  You've used it three times in two posts, and I have no idea what it mens.

And leave my bollix out of this!

Quoted from Dreamscale Writing is no different.  I do agree that it's easy to rad a single page or even a single sentence and get an idea of the talent or potential of the writer, but from there, there is a big difference, and talent means nothing unless you learn the skills to put it to good use. Even terrible writers can become great screenwriters.  It's completely true.  This is a good thing. Do I believe it though? No, I don't.  But it's not for me to say.

Fixed your post for you!

Murph, you didn't fix the drunk typos, though!  

Nah, man, I completely disagree.  You guys are basically saying that if/when an SS unproduced writer sells a script for major cashola, somehow they're a different writer all of a sudden...a different quality.  And that's not the case at all.

One of these days, you guys...one of these days...I'm going to prove you wrong and then the debate will get very interesting.

COUNTDOWN TO ADMISSION TO INSANE ASYLUM FOR JEFF...most likely within 1 month...

No, you have got it the wrong way round.

I am not suggesting for a minute that being produced makes you a better writer, I am saying becoming a better writer is just about the only way to get your work produced.

Nobody is born talented, Alfred Hitchcock did not come out of the womb with the screenplay for Psycho clenched between his wrinkled and bloody butcheecks. Just like Thierry Henry never pissed around during his teens and only realised he could play football when kicking can while stumbling home from the pub.

To be a good screenwriter means working hard and learning your craft, understanding how story is structured and delivered. Anyone can learn this, even crap writers today can become great writers tomorrow. Yes some people have a natural flair for some things, some people find it easier to understand. But it is wrong to even think that is all there is too it.

The answer to Pia's question is quite simple really....

What separates SS writers from the pros? The pros have learned and understand how to write screenplays, the SS writers are still learning.

How do we know when an SS writer has become as good as the pros? They sell a script!

Quoted from Murphy What separates SS writers from the pros? The pros have learned and understand how to write screenplays, the SS writers are still learning. How do we know when an SS writer has become as good as the pros? They sell a script!

I'm gonna have to disagree with you here.  Selling a script just means that someone likes your script enough to pay for it.  And what if it's being done by a film student who's giving you points on the back end.  Does that make you good?

I don't think that there's any correct definition to the words 'good' and 'pro.'  THat would be like saying that studios would buy your scripts if you score a seven out of ten on the script scale.


Phil

Phil, what I'm saying is that I see a difference in pro scripts and scripts here. I'm just trying to figure out exactly what it is that makes that difference.

I wonder how many people that are in this discussion here actually read a lot of pro scripts? When you've read a TON of them, I think the difference is easier to see or am I wrong?

To be honest, I haven't read too many professional scripts.  I'm too busy writing my own.  

I have the formatting down.  I just have to get the story on paper and out there.


Phil

Phil, you have to excuse my meanings here.

I am not really talking about the artistic merit of a writer here, when I say good I am talking about pro, i.e. selling scripts and being paid to write them by Hollywood. And for good read writing something that a studio wants to buy, a director wants to direct, a star wants to act in and an audience wants to watch.

To me this is the definition of a pro writer. Whether he writes 3rd rate rom-coms full of plot holes or brilliant, intricate dramas that win Oscars. In the world of Hollywood there is no difference between the two, and usually the writer of crap will get paid the more. Someone who knows their market, understands their craft, can tell a good story and keep readers engaged is a pro level writer IMO and anyone with these skills WILL get produced if they work hard enough at it.  

Who the fuck knows?  I've seen movies so bad I wanted to walk out... and they were in-flight movies.

Somehow, Johnny Screenplay gets his script in the right hands.  How does he do that?  Who the fuck knows?  Maybe he went to school with the director's brother.  Maybe he cleans the leading man's pool.  Maybe those screenplay competitions are delivering what they promise.

I spend a lot of time showing my scripts around.  For the most part, I've been showing them to the smaller fish in the pond.  If enough of my shorts get produced, I might get the attention of the bigger fish (though Bad Penguin has the attention of a big fish).

As soon as I get some money, I'm going to start entering the competitions again.  I think it helped me.


Phil

I suppose it depends on HOW you ask the question.

One could say the TRUE answer is this - MONEY!

When you're poor, you're crazy...
When you're rich, you're esentric.

As an artist, when you're poor, you are "starving"...
When you make it, you're essential.

A unproduced screen writer is a "spec writer"
Someone who sells a script is accomplished.

Or perhaps another way...
Every writer, is just like us. Only differience is, lightning struck, lotto won, horse came in and something that burned in their hearts to write actually stuck and wham, they sell something.

I like that scenerio. I have seen a hundred scripts on this site, I thought should be on the screen. Will they ever? Don't know. Will mine? again, don't know.

One thing I do know is, if you love doing this, pay is secondary but nice, very nice.

Us from a pro? The cost.