Hm, okay. I think the first problem with this thread is that it starts with a blanket premise that attempts to encapsulate EVERYONE on this site, and then attempts to summarize everyone as well. I've read a lot of scripts on here, and sure, some are not so good, but some are great. To say you've NEVER read ANYTHING on here by the unproduced writers and tell me that none of them measure up to a professional level only tells me that you haven't read enough scripts on here to know what the hell you're talking about. Might I direct you to a thread entitled Simply Recommended Scripts. A good portion of these are considered to be the cream of the crop around here (no, not all, but a lot of them). When you see a title repeated over and over again, there is likely something to that. Before you make a snap judgement call over the writers here, read something that people around here actually recommend, and not Joe Shmo's first draft that he posted last week.

My answer to the posed question? Well, I can't make a blanket answer because we have all manner of writers here from "I've written a 3 page short once" to "I've just sold another one." Yeah, I did just write that. People have posted scripts on here, and because of it being here, the right person found it, and bought it leading that person to request Don to remove it. So, for some, apparently, they are pros. For others, it's experience. For others, maybe it's just a sale.

But to just say that NO ONE can write a pro level script on here is flat ignorance. It just means that you haven't looked in the right place yet.

Quoted from dogglebe Who the fuck knows?  I've seen movies so bad I wanted to walk out... and there in-flight movies.

Same here, I think most films released are crap. But often they make a lot of money, and the writers are pro writers, who will get paid more money to write another one. This is because essentially they are good writers who know what they are writing and who they are writing it for.

I think Dreamscale is confusing a badly written script with a well written but bad film.

The majority of the scripts on this site are not well written scripts, although they certainly have higher motives and loftier ambitions than "insert rubbish film here"  it still does not take away from the fact that "insert rubbish film here is a better written screenplay. Even crap films are on the face of it written by people who understand screenwriting and have written a good script, that is why they are paid to do it.

I have read 100's of pro scripts this year and every single one stands out compared to scripts on this site, with very few exceptions (not going to name those). And I think it is important that all of us read pro scripts and begin to understand that difference if we are ever going to improve.

And to clarify I am not talking about writing styles or format here, I am not talking about finding your own voice. I am not even talking about ideas and a good premise. I am talking about the basics, I am talking about storytelling.

Quoted from George Willson to just say that NO ONE can write a pro level script on here is flat ignorance. It just means that you haven't looked in the right place yet.

With the greatest of respect this tells me you have not read my posts and therefore is flat ignorance too.

I never said that. And yet again the question is what is the difference between pro writers and SS writers? The fact that you are telling me to go look at some thread for some good examples and not my local blockbuster is your answer.

George, all I was saying is that I've read a TON of scripts over the years and I can tell when I'm reading a pro script and when I'm not. I can't tell why I can tell, but I can tell.

It's not a jab at SS members, I'm just simply saying there is a difference IMHO.

Btw, just so everyone knows, please don't confuse this with me not having read scripts I like here. I have! And I know people's styles and I love watching how you guys evolve as writers. I'm just trying to figure out why pro and amateur scripts read differently. That's all.

Quoted from Murphy With the greatest of respect this tells me you have not read my posts and therefore is flat ignorance too. I never said that. And yet again the question is what is the difference between pro writers and SS writers? The fact that you are telling me to go look at some thread for some good examples and not my local blockbuster is your answer.

I haven't?

Quoted from Murphy Quote 1: I have read hundreds of "pro" scripts over the last year, including un-produced blacklist scripts (which for the purposes of this I would include as pro) and I can honestly say that there is only 3 screenplays I have ever read by SS writers that would be good enough to considered as good as the worst of those. Quote 2: Don't get me wrong, this is not supposed to be a dig at any writers here, there are some good writers here who are improving greatly and will maybe one day write a great script. But there is no point anyine deceiving themselves with the notion that the only difference boils down to luck, being in the right place, knowing the right people etc.. That is never gonna get anyone anywhere. The difference lies in the skill level of the writer.   Quote 3: What separates SS writers from the pros? The pros have learned and understand how to write screenplays, the SS writers are still learning. How do we know when an SS writer has become as good as the pros? They sell a script!

What have I missed? What did I misread? You flat out state that SS writers (with the exception of only 3 scripts) are unskilled and only that lack of skill as opposed to right place, right time prevents their forward momentum. I don't think I took these out of context, and you did state not to take you wrong, and yet, these are full paragraph quote, not pieces of sentences.

Now let me tell you something. You place the full responsibility of taken or not in the hands of the skill of the writer. This implies that these writers have gotten their scripts into the hands of the producers, and these producers have rejected them based solely on the merits of their writing. Here's why this statement pisses me off: I have been rejected, but not based on my scripts. I have queried and tried for years, and yet, no one is interested. Maybe it's my premises. Maybe it's my presentation. Maybe it's the...gasp...wrong time. My biggest beef is that they're unwilling to give me a chance.

So yeah, I actually do take offense to what you're saying because if I'd had bites and set a script in and THEN it was rejected, I would say maybe you have a point. Maybe that is something I need to work on. However, since no such request has come across from all the queries I've sent over the years, I can't say that. How many people can?

Whether my actual stories are good or not is a matter of opinion, but I've been told that what I write is very easy to read. Even if the script is weak, it flows from page to page. Unless, of course, the implication here is that the bad writers are also incapable of reading intelligently as well.

You can say that's not what you're saying all you want, but I'll speak up for everyone who has not written one of your three "jewels" and state that I continue to write and work toward the goal of finding whatever the hell they're looking for. If no offense was intended, then perhaps you should work on your writing, since you apparently can't get your message across either.

Oh, and I referred to the thread because I can only guess that you haven't. You response also tells me that you don't care, which leads me to wonder, again, what your goal is on this thread if not to insult us.

Pia, I'm not taking issue with you here. You've simply stated there is a difference, but the thread took a rather disgusting turn at some point. What is the difference? It could be nothing more than mindset going into it. You know whether you're reading a pro script or not. I wonder if you were given a good SS script that you haven't read along side a pro script that was never produced whether you could tell the diff in a blind test.

Quoted from George Willson Oh, and I referred to the thread because I can only guess that you haven't. You response also tells me that you don't care, which leads me to wonder, again, what your goal is on this thread if not to insult us.

By the way, if you read that thread you would see I have actually posted on it before, so pretty obvious I have read it and read some of the scripts on it. A little fact finding would be a good idea in future before throwing accusations around.

An no, of course my posts are not meant to insult anyone. If a bee has crawled up your ass today then in no way was it my intention to put it there. My posts have been quite clear that I think many writers on this site have the imagination and talent to write good scripts but most are still lacking the skills as displayed by pro writers. If you do not want to believe that then that is fine, but to accuse me of insulting people is just complete and utter rubbish to be quite frank and I find that insulting.

I would like to believe that writers are submitting work here because they want to improve as writers, that they already know they still have lots to learn. What does pretending that the thing standing in the way of being a pro is those awful producers and their inability to pick a good script when it is sent to them?

There is a belief on this site, and always has been, that as long as your slugs are formatted correctly and you don't write unfilmables that you are a screenwriter and the only thing stopping you making it big are... you don't live in L.A./you don't know the right people/It takes luck blah... blah... blah....

Well that is just wrong, the real reason is simply that your writing is not good enough yet. Reading pro scripts is proof of this, they simply are better written than most things here. And I firmly believe that if you write a great script then it will get you noticed, lthe world is too small now, it is easy to have a great script in the hands of the right people. People do send  scripts on, the studios do want great scripts. It is self defeating and a waste of time to assume your writing is as good as any pro and it is all bad luck stopping you selling something. Surely it makes sense to keep learning and keep improving until your writing is good enough?

Sorry if it is harsh, sorry if it sucks. But the truth of the matter is the reason why the vast majority of screenplays go unproduced is because they are not good enough. If that is deemed as being insulting to one of these scripts then so be it, the worlds a tough place and if you want to compete in it then you need to toughen up and get better at it.


  

I would believe this if only I had not experienced the side where they do not even wish to read the script. You say it's easy to get a script into the hands of the right people. I want to know how. I've never done it. At this point, I would take a legitimate script-based rejection just to know that the script is the reason I have never sold anything. However, that is not the case here. I continue writing, but I don't know if my writing is actually good enough because it has never been in the hands of those who make that decision.

Therefore, what is stopping me? You actually can't say it is my writing. You can't say this because no one in that capacity has read it.

I want to know how you get a script easily into those hands? Pray tell me so I can be rejected for my writing.

And I have said for a long time that story and character are paramount. Format takes a couple hours and a monkey can do it. A well formatted script isn't worth the paper it's printed on if the story sucks.

With all due respect, Geroge, I think you're overreacting a bit.  No one is intending to insult anyone here..

Pia asked the difference, and Murph gave a really clear reason as to why he thought they were different, and a gave some examples.

And this isn't meant to offend anyone, but Murphs right.  There have only been three or four (or five or six) screenplays that I've read on this site that were of the quality that I could see them being produced and I could go to a theater and see them.  

But I have seen, as Murph pointed out, plenty of screenplays that with some work, and some effort, could be produced, and played in theaters.

I can only speak for myself,  but I certainly lump myself in the category of not as good as pro writers, and I don't think I'm going to  far to say Murph does too.

Hahaha, spot on. I have got more chance of marrying Beyonce than I have of selling a script at the moment, that is because I am not good enough. Yet.

But I am learning, I am reading, lots. I can spot the difference a mile away between pro and SS scripts, but still find it hard to pinpoint those differences fully. But they are there, and when reading they are as clear as daylight.

George, Look at the scripts on the blacklist, read some of the reviews on sites like scriptshadow. There are stories there about how specs get discovered, whether it be through through high profile competitions, sending them out to every agency in Hollywood, flying to Hollywood and kicking down doors, networking and meeting the right people on message boards, and plenty more.

And no I am not contradicting myself about it not being who you know, sometimes you have to work hard and find these people in order to know them.

But most of all, and most importantly, I believe that cream rises to the top. If you write a great script, with a great story and premise then it will be discovered as long as you put it out there. Despite popular opinion, and often my opinion, the industry does want good scripts, there are lots of people paid to read scripts, your scripts will get read, problem is it seems that you will only get to hear about it if it is any good.

Thank you Seamus.

Part of achieving any goal is having the correct mindset. If we set ourselves upon the task of writing with the thought that we're going to try to write something good enough, but that we are certainly not as good as a pro (whatever that is), then we will inevitably turn out a script that is not as good as a pro. However, if we consider that we are all writers, and whether pro or amateur, we all start out with the same blank page, then we realize that we can write that good. We are capable.

Seamus, you say you aren't that good, but what are you judging this on? Your last script? Well, you haven't written your next one yet, so who's to say it won't be on par with whoever you're striving to match? I would rather have a positive environment that says we can accomplish something great than have anything descend into the possibly very real ideal that maybe we aren't that good. Everyone can improve any skill they have, but when a child is learning piano, do you praise his progress, or tell him every day that Mozart was better at his age?

This board is a place of encouragement, and this thread has been anything but. Regardless of intent or opinion, can anyone say that after reading the various comments that you are encouraged to go out and write something? I sat down to write this evening, but after this thread, my inspiration flew out the window. If you want to know why I was bothered, that's why.

we should only have encouraging discussions?    

i honestly was trying to find out what separate us. There is a difference...

There is no need to take this thread as being negative, and of of course when a child is learning piano you do praise his progress, but what you don't do is tell him he is as good as Mozart already. What is the point of that?

But nowhere in this thread have I suggested anything like that, I am not saying that writers here are not doing the right things, not showing progress, not writing some nice stuff. I am only answering a specific question and I am answering it truthfully and honestly.

I look at a pro script and acknowledge it is better than I could come up with, I use this as a motivation to work harder and learn more. I am trying to learn so much at the moment about story structure and building characters. I am motivated by admitting to myself I still have lots to learn.

I fail to see how a realization that you might not be quite up to the standards of a pro writer is a negative motivator unless you are already a pro writer and hungry. And besides you will not know if your next script is the one that everything falls into place until you write it, so there is all the motivation you need.

To be very clear, I have not said that I think that the writers on this board are not capable of becoming pro writers, All I have said is that presently, based on current work, very few are.  That could change tomorrow when Dreamscale posts the new "Usual Suspects" or Seamus announces his new, unposted feature had been bought Brad Pitt.

You are only as good as your last script and your next one could be the one, but in order for that to happen there are skills that need to be learned and improved, by all of us.

Quoted from Grandma Bear we should only have encouraging discussions?     i honestly was trying to find out what separate us. There is a difference...

What separates us is a thin layer of transparent slime which is only visible by the reptile people of planet Alannta.

Quoted from Grandma Bear we should only have encouraging discussions?     i honestly was trying to find out what separate us. There is a difference...

There is also a difference between a frank discussion over differences between scripts and saying that the reason is that we're all unskilled (save 3, of course, which you've graciously increased to "a few").

If I consider what I've read, it has to do with the writer actually writing to tell the story. One thing we often point out when it comes to pro scripts is that they tend to be freer with stuff like unfilmables, camera directions, asides, and that sort of thing. They do it in moderation, granted, but around here, some crucify over these things. These little things show that the writer has some measure of control over the screenplay aspect of it, and that no one was terribly offended that they went for clarity over brevity. When we read these scripts, we not only know exactly what's going on, but how to picture the scene. I think people here put too much stock in trying to play by whatever rules they find necessary as opposed to focusing on a good story. How many reviews have we all read where there are an endless flow of page numbers pointing out all these "taboo" items? And yet, we'll turn around and complain that the pros can get away with it. All this stuff is in those scripts that sell, and yet we're telling everyone to take it all out. There are some readers here that won't even read scripts that don't fit their idea of the rules.

What separates us? Honestly? The "rules." We need to follow the rules of format, just because it's an industry standard. However, we need to let go of the taboos and overabundance of rules. We should strive for brevity and clarity, of course, but not at the expense of the best way to tell a story. If the best way to show (not tell) a particular moment is an EXTREME CLOSE UP, then we should do it. If "We see" something that can't be conveyed some other way, then "we" should see it. I know how to write around all of these things, but sometimes, it's just clearer and quicker just to say POV instead of "An unknown person looks at..."

That's our separation. We try to follow these rules, and those who've been sold don't worry about it. Screw the rules people. I've said or a long time that they're just learning tools, and you gotta write what you gotta write.

Of course, this should be construed as a license to write total crap. I'm just saying to write something in the best way possible, that's all.

You missed my point... My point was that this script was written like anyone of us here could have written it. "ing" words and all, but my point was that as the story went on it did separate from most of the scripts here. At least to me. It eventually, despite its faults became a page-turner. Maybe this particular script won't for everyone, but my point is that most "pro" scripts do get your interest regardless of format errors, typos and writing style and that's what I'm trying to figure out why the scripts differ.