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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    General Boards    Questions or Comments  ›  What separates SS writers from the pros?
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  Author    What separates SS writers from the pros?  (currently 12239 views)
Grandma Bear
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 2:11pm Report to Moderator
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Just curious if anyone has read Frozen by Adam Green? If so, I'd like to hear what you thought of it.

I often take turns by reading scripts by friends and pro scripts. This one appealed to me by name (short and to the point), logline "As a trio of snowboarders ride up the mountain in preparation for their final run of the day, the night lights suddenly go dark, and the lift chairs grind to a sudden halt. Realizing that the resort will be closed until the following weekend, the three friends decide to take their fate into their own hands, and find their way down to terra firma. Once they do, they realize that hypothermia isn't the only thing they have to fear... and an entirely unexpected horror awaits them." and the poster.

I almost gave up after the first 10 pages nothing had happened. There wasn't even a hint that told me this was going to be a horror at all. And it was mostly just dialogue.

The reason I want to hear anyone else's opinion is because those first 10 pages read to me like they could have been written by anyone here at SS. The writing was straight forward. No smart-ass asides or anything else to give this writer a special "voice" and dialogue heavy slow beginning...

I kept on reading however and that's where the difference between scripts here at SS and this one really started to show. Most of this script takes place in one location. A ski lift. Very hard to do, but the writer did a real good job on that. The tension continued to build throughout and I didn't want to put this script down. Situation continued to go from worse to worse and all three characters were good and were changed in the end. All this on a ski-lift!

I think, maybe the reason I wanted to mention this script is because I feel that there are so many people here that can definitely write (style wise) as this guy, but seldom do I read scripts by us here that are page turners. What is it that our scripts lack? It's not the writing. Is it the failure to really really test our characters? We don't really put them through the ringer. I'm not talking just about horror here. I'm talking about the dramas the comedies, whatever. Maybe the stakes just aren't high enough? I don't know, but I'd like to know if anyone else has any thoughts on it.

PS. this script was very much like Open Water...



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Baltis.
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 2:48pm Report to Moderator
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There really isn't a whole lot of difference between anyone else in the world and the writers on this site.  Not really.  They're people.  Some more talented than others.  

I have a slogan on my Corkboard that says "You're Not a Writer If You're Not Writing"... This is what often separates the pro's from the users here.  Writers who come here, by and large, are hobbyist.  They don't take it seriously.  I know I don't.  I got too many other things I want to succeed at doing well before I succeed in screenwriting.

Insert - (My Band and being a father)

But it still doesn't change the fact I write for rainy days to come.  Everyone starts somewhere.  This is just where some writers can lay claim to starting when the time comes.   And I firmly believe Phil has written work that eclipses most of what comes out of Hollywood.  That doesn't mean he's an amateur.  Just means he has a different origin.

And I thought Frozen was utter garbage.  Tedious,  boring, and lacked proper pace.
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Grandma Bear
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 3:07pm Report to Moderator
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I haven't seen the movie. I was talking about the script. I often read a good script only to see the movie and be really disappointed. Mirrors comes to mind so I don't doubt Frozen would be different. And btw, I didn't mean the script was brilliant or anything. Just thought it was interesting how it started out like something that can be found here, but then as the story goes along it turns out pretty good and I can see why it got sold.

I think what I meant was that when I read a script that has sold or been produced. I usually do think that they are better than what I read here. I just can't put my finger on what it is exactly that makes them better. Makes them page turners. If that makes sense.


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Eoin
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 3:34pm Report to Moderator
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It's not always the writing that sells a script - it's that scripts marketability - or it's USP - it's unique selling point. For a production company to invest in a script it has to see serious potential in terms of return. The writer must have done a fantastic job at pitching the idea, that earned a read and the film got made.
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James McClung
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 3:41pm Report to Moderator
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I think it's important to note that Adam Green also directed the film which means he had an active part in getting the film produced. That's about the only significant difference I can see here.


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rendevous
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 3:44pm Report to Moderator
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What separates SS writers from the pros?

Er, in a word, Success.

I mean Speilbergian, Kubrickishness Fincherdom. We don't have houses in beverley hills and twelve cars that we never drive.

We have lives. And we seek. Some of us will get some success, some day. We can hope...

Great clip of BBC's newsnight with The Man Paxman giving it some about why writers don't get the same credit as directors with the writer of Last King of Scotland and Stephen Frears which says everything about why I seek to be a writer rather than director, at the mo.

I'll find it then do an edit here soon. In the fine words HL, of one sadly missed, I'm a man of my word...

EDIT:

And the man keepeth his word, took some bloody finding too,,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/9026552.stm

I found it fascinating. Plus, I like your new gloves, me...

H ox


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rendevous  -  October 5th, 2010, 6:32pm
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Dreamscale
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 3:45pm Report to Moderator
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Frozen is next up in my Netflix que.

Keep in mind that Adam Green wrote and directed this, so IMO, that doesn't really qualify as him "selling" his script.  For some reason, Hatchet became a cult favorite, even though it's absolutely terrible.  I've heard Hatchet 2 is even worse.

IMO, the vast majority of Pro scripts are piss poor, and I'm including big grossing features as well.

It's just a really tough market to break into and getting tougher each year, it seems.  The writer/directors have a leg up, being able to shoot their own scripts on minuscule budgets, that they borrow/finance/whatever somehow.  If what they produce is even half way decent, they have something to show going forward and that's where many get their big break.

Mirrors was absolutely abysmal!  Just pathetic!
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Murphy
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 4:10pm Report to Moderator
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I have read hundreds of "pro" scripts over the last year, including un-produced blacklist scripts (which for the purposes of this I would include as pro) and I can honestly say that there is only 3 screenplays I have ever read by SS writers that would be good enough to considered as good as the worst of those.

But the answer is simple, It is not writing style, or a voice, there are some writers here who have worked hard and developed a nice style. It is poor characters that let's down 99.9% of all the scripts posted here. With all the focus of learning the craft of screenwriting many have forgotten about the craft of storytelling, if a reader does not give a shit about a character then the story is not going anywhere and I honestly don't think there any many scripts here at all where the characters have been properly developed and given a voice of their own.

This is not the only difference but I think it is the biggest difference, there are many other tricks to creating a good story that the pros use but without characters then the rest is irrelevant.

I think anyone who believes that there or not many difference between the scripts of a pro and most scripts here are kidding themselves and never likely to improve. There is a huge difference and it is going to take lots of work to get there. Lots of learning too, and I don't mean reading books about screenplay format but learning about creating a story that holds a readers attention, engages, surprises and moves people. Characters are a good place to start,
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Dreamscale
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 4:18pm Report to Moderator
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Murph, just for the fun of it, what characters/scripts are you talking about being so good, or so much better than characters/scripts in SS?  I mean, name some over the last 3 years.

I'm just curious.

For instance, Pia mentioned Mirrors being a great script that turned into a shit movie.  What was so special about those characters?  Absolutely nothing.  They were all piss poor, cliched, zero dimensional, and unrealistic to boot.


What am I missing here?
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BoinTN
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 4:35pm Report to Moderator
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To the point about Frozen, Green was writing that script while he was producing Grace, knowing it would be his next film.  Ariescope was already working with him on Grace, which, of course, is who produced Frozen, along with A Bigger Boat (their first production), so I think that the script had a fast track because of so many other factors surrounding it.  That was, by no means, a spec script.  
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Murphy
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 4:41pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
Murph, just for the fun of it, what characters/scripts are you talking about being so good, or so much better than characters/scripts in SS?  I mean, name some over the last 3 years.

I'm just curious.

For instance, Pia mentioned Mirrors being a great script that turned into a shit movie.  What was so special about those characters?  Absolutely nothing.  They were all piss poor, cliched, zero dimensional, and unrealistic to boot.


What am I missing here?


Every script I have read is the easy answer.

If by page 10 you give me characters who I want to achieve their goals then I will buy into the story, whatever that story is. Whether it is a serial killer who wants to be a clown or a taxi driver who wants to win a flower arranging competition.

Interesting, multi-dimensional characters with clear goals and distinct personalities. Pro scripts  have these in spades. I can't explain how to create them fully, Like everyone here am still learning, but they are easy to spot. They are missing from most scripts here, and it is telling.

What it is not is lots of backstory, flashbacks and exposition. It is far more subtle than that, a brief one page conversation can tell us far more about a character that 5 pages of flashback can if done well. It is about using dialogue expertly, not just dialogue to move the story forward and reveal plot details but to also reveal something about the character. Something that seeps into the conscious of a reader, often unknowingly, but something that sticks enough for the reader to care.


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Dreamscale
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 4:51pm Report to Moderator
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Murph, I'm sure you can give an example of 3 scripts that have been made into movies that show what you are referring to over the last 3 years.  And I'm hoping you don't use "classics" as examples.

I guess I am rather critical of most things, in that I see the flaws, I see what doesn't make sense, and it always amazes me how things "slip" by.

I used to see close to 10 movies every week (1 or 2 in the theater, and 5 plus either on DVD or a movie channel).  That number is way down now as I rarely see movies in the theater.  But, bottom line is that I probably see a Hell of alot more movies than most.  And, most of the movies I see suck or aren't very impressive.  I'd say that less than 10% of the movies I see are above decent, and that's not saying too much, obviously.

Is it only me?  Maybe...  
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rendevous
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 4:54pm Report to Moderator
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It is poor characters that let's down 99.9% of all the scripts posted here. With all the focus of learning the craft of screenwriting many have forgotten about the craft of storytelling, if a reader does not give a s*** about a character then the story is not going anywhere and I honestly don't think there any many scripts here at all where the characters have been properly developed and given a voice of their own.

Excellent point. One I used to be guilty of. I hope I'm not any more. Still, you never know.

Hxo


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Murphy
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 5:25pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
Murph, I'm sure you can give an example of 3 scripts that have been made into movies that show what you are referring to over the last 3 years.  And I'm hoping you don't use "classics" as examples.


This week I have read some more blacklist scripts that included another read of The Beaver, which Jodie Foster has directed and which seems to have disappeared due to Mel Gibson's "troubles"), Brad Cutter ruined my life...again, which has been picked up and Everything must go, another spec that is getting serious interest, in fact I think Will Farrel is going to star.

All three are specs, all three got lots of buzz and all three are great examples of having lead characters who readers connect to and want to succeed. The stories themselves are of course imaginative and well written, but that is something that is SS writers are certainly capable of.

Yesterday I read another blacklist script called "Cedar Rapids" this has been optioned and is listed on IMDB as upcoming, no idea whether it will be made or not*. But I mention this one because the plot is very simple, very cliched and closely follows a tried and tested formula. To me this is the kind of story that everyone here could write, in fact I have read some rom-coms here that have better story.

To me the difference is in the characters, especially that of the lead. There is a reason why this script featured on the blacklist, people remembered it and liked it, and I can only think it is down to character.

I have linked to it here.... https://files.me.com/gary.murphy/3n239k

Honestly, read the first 11 pages and tell me that you cannot automatically tell you are not reading an amateur script.

And I would put this very low down on the list of scripts I have read this year, I have only highlighted this because i think it is the type of script that gets written here often. But read into the dialogue on the first couple of pages, read between the lines, they may be talking about a television commercial but really they are not at all, they are revealing personality and character immediately. The words spoken  are not as important as what they reveal, they are just a method of getting that across. By the time we get to page 11 and the plot set-up I was invested enough in this character to want to carry on reading, and judging by the black-list I was not the only one.

** EDIT: Actually, I am wrong, must have looked at the wrong one, another look at IMDB tell me that Cedar Rapids has been filmed and stars Sigourney Weaver and John C Reilly. And I don't rank this that highly at all.

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seamus19382
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 5:47pm Report to Moderator
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Just off of the movie scripts page here, I would say Sunshine Cleaners, Whip It and The Book of Eli all have solid characters that you want to follow and see what happens.
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 6:07pm Report to Moderator
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I'm glad that you've asked this question Pia, I think it's an important one.

In terms of page turning, it's really about three things....high stakes (life or death etc) constantly posing dramatic questions (will this work? Is he going to get out of this?), and tension...all the time the stakes are building, the time is running out.

That's where the better pro scripts are on a level above I think. Every scene moves the story along, every line of dialogue is relevant and works like action to move the story along. Dialogue tends to be incredibly excessive and non-important in amateur scripts, with little reveal of character, no subtext and just there for the sake of it, not to move the story on.

In terms of tension there are really only a few ways to do it, a simple google will provide them, just stick them in your scenes.

Most non-pro scripts are very low on tension IMO. A lot of pro-films are as well to be fair. Often you'll have a scene that's quite passive and expositional where somebody is doing something, but there's no threat, no time limit, nobody coming to stop them, or even just watching them. That's simply a matter of being really aware of the craft of filmmaking at all times.

On top of that, I'll be honest and say that many of the scripts on here don't tend to have the absolute strongest premises to begin with. Scripts written for professional production rely on huge stakes, unique selling points. I think scripts on here can stuck between two stools at times..they are neither massive, blockbuster type epic stories nor intense, focussed, character driven pieces or whatever...so they end up kind of watered down versions of Hollywood genre films. Not banging enough for the big screen, but not unique enough, or deep enough to be breakout hits lower down.

To be fair though, I get the impression that a lot of writers hold back a bit...they tend not to write their strongest ideas until they feel they are ready, so you're never seeing their real soul put into it.

I think it's really a question of writers working really hard to find a strong, marketable premise with lots of natural conflict, creating unique characters and really pushing it hard, like you say.

Is Frozen an adaptation btw? I've read a similar story in short form...two guys get stuck on ski-lifts (I think one was trying to kill the other), one jumps at night hoping it's not too far and breaks his legs, the other stays on and freezes to death.
It was a cool story, must have read it in the 80's or early 90's...

Rick.
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Dreamscale
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 6:18pm Report to Moderator
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Murph, I'll read 10 pages and give you my thoughts, but you didn't use any scripts that have been made int movies that we can discuss, and that is a problem, IMO.

Seamus, you used Book of Eli as an example and IMO, that's a really piss poor example, because the movie flat out sucked balls.  Heinously flat, cliched, dull, been there, seen it.  I was shocked how bad it was, actually, as I was looking forward to it, based on the trailers.

Let's quickly look at the characters in Book of Eli.  We've got Eli himself.  The twist about his is good, but doesn't save the picture at all. He himself is a total cliche.  There's nothing he says or does that is remotely unique, or even interesting.  Then we've got the hooker chick...another completely cliched character who doesn't say or do anything remotely fresh or interesting.  And finally, we've got Gary Oldman's bad guy dude, who is a complete cliched, cartoonish bossman bad guy.

What am I missing here with Book of Eli?
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dresseme
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 6:25pm Report to Moderator
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I can guarantee you that Frozen was sold to investors on the premise alone (and how cheap it would be to make) and possibly the filmmaker's pedigree.  I doubt the people who put money into it even asked to read the script.

(Hi everyone, by the way.    )
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Murphy
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 6:29pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
Murph, I'll read 10 pages and give you my thoughts, but you didn't use any scripts that have been made int movies that we can discuss, and that is a problem, IMO.


Actually, two of the three examples I gave have already completed filming and one looks highly likely to get green-lit. I only used them as they are specs and I have read them recently.

Don't get me wrong, this is not supposed to be a dig at any writers here, there are some good writers here who are improving greatly and will maybe one day write a great script. But there is no point anyine deceiving themselves with the notion that the only difference boils down to luck, being in the right place, knowing the right people etc.. That is never gonna get anyone anywhere. The difference lies in the skill level of the writer.  
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seamus19382
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 6:32pm Report to Moderator
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I have no idea about the movie.  I didn't see it.  

Have we seen variations of this character before?  Of course.   There have been many solitary wanderers in the post apocalyptic wilderness.  But it is an interesting character, and he has a definite mission that I want to see him accomplish.

And it may not be a great screenplay.  But it is better than anything that anyone here has written.  

(ANd that isn't meant as a dig at onyone on here either.)
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James McClung
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 6:34pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Murphy
Don't get me wrong, this is not supposed to be a dig at any writers here, there are some good writers here who are improving greatly and will maybe one day write a great script. But there is no point anyine deceiving themselves with the notion that the only difference boils down to luck, being in the right place, knowing the right people etc.. That is never gonna get anyone anywhere. The difference lies in the skill level of the writer.  


How is it then that there is such a a massive quantity of films produced with flat characters and predictable plots? I don't understand how the pros can be more skilled when the majority of their scripts are awful.

I read the first 11 pages of the script you linked BTW. I did see a difference in both the action lines and the dialogue but not in quality. I think the writer just found more clever ways of phrasing certain things that could've otherwise been written as "How are you - I'm fine" and that sort of stuff. In regards to the action, there was a lot more product placement, italics and sound effects. None of it was bad but I wasn't hooked and have no interest in reading further. Maybe I'll reread it later on but as of now, I don't get it.


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Dreamscale
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 6:36pm Report to Moderator
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OK, Murph, I read the first 6 pages of the linked script, Cedar Rapids.  I couldn't go any further.

IMO, it's terrible...terribly boring, dull characters, no plot setup, nothing that would remotely interest me into reading anymore.

A 34 year old loser guy having sex with a 54 year old lady?  Not what I want to see when I watch a movie.

Way too many characters.  Writing itself isn't even good, IMO.  Lots and lots of mistakes, unfilmables, meaningless information, using first and last names in dialogue boxes, WAY TOO MANY wrylies, long winded dialogue...ARGH...terrible.  I can't imagine anyone in here even reading more than 10 pages of this, if it were posted here, let alone what the comments would look like.

I guess I just don't see things like others do.  It must be me. I must be either crazy or dangerously close to being crazy.

To each is own is fine. I know that, and I understand that.  But to say this is a great example of what a Pro caliber script looks like and that scripts on SS don't match up to it, is downright crazy to me.
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rendevous
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 6:43pm Report to Moderator
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S19382 makes a good point. I added that URL of Pax and Frears about screenwriters too, for those that care.

Sunshine Cleaning is one of many films that highlights a relatively new situation in society. ANd it does it bloody well, pardon the deliberate pun.

Sam Jackson did a similar film with Ed Harris which IMH, didn't work quite as well.

The whole point of this thread is what separates us from them. Apart from success, cos I already said that,

Fact is I really don't give a shit if I make it.

Anonimity suits me fine. As long as I git enough money to get drunk and smoke when I want so what if the world don't know who I am. Like I give a fuck.

I'm more talented and intelligent than they will ever be. I can prove it too. I can take their Porsche and make it do things they can never dream of. I'd never own one, cos only wankers drive 'em.

Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz...

Ahem. Nuff for now. Gonna watch Matchpoint and AN again. Wish me luck. You kids play nice now.


Out Of Character - updated


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Green

Right Back

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Other scripts here
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Dreamscale
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 6:43pm Report to Moderator
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Seamus, you may have just hit the nail on the head in saying you haven't seen the movie.  I didn't read the script, but I can guarantee you that the movie blows and was a waste of $70 million (even though it made money back)...credit that to Denzell and Gary Oldman.

For some reason, people think scripts are great, but in reality, when they're filmed, it becomes obvious that they aren't, and weren't.  And there in lies the problem.

And, BTW, in no way is that script better than every script in here.  That's ludicrous to think and say, IMO.  I'd go out on a limb and guess that hundreds of the scripts in here would make much more entertaining movies than Book of Eli.

James, I am in agreement with you 100%!  That's why I'm still waiting for someone to throw out some recent movies that have these fantastic, original characters that only a Pro writer can conceive and...write.

It's BS is what it is.  Complete BS.
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rendevous
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Deemscale, you have become something slightly more boring than you were. I can almost copy and paste what you say from your previous ones. Lighten up, Jeff!

And stop following me.

You're only paranoid if people aren't following you.

Wassup dude?

Plus your arguments are complete Bs, as you put it. Arse I say.

The Book Of Eli is a fine script that didn't quite work on film as well as it should have. That ain't Denzel's fault. He's the talent and the money and the actor, blame the director or the producers. Their problem. Night night.

H xo


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Green

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Other scripts here
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seamus19382
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 6:51pm Report to Moderator
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[quote=Dreamscale]

And, BTW, in no way is that script better than every script in here.  That's ludicrous to think and say, IMO.  I'd go out on a limb and guess that hundreds of the scripts in here would make much more entertaining movies than Book of Eli.
quote]

You're right.  YOu're going crazy.  Or at least delusional!  
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Murphy
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 6:58pm Report to Moderator
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Dreamscale, I am not going to argue over something as personal as taste, your opinion is valid and I am not going to assume it is wrong. But Cedar Rapids is a spec script that has been filmed and was good enough to attract top talent to star in it. So there has to be something worthwhile here.

Breakdown of the first 12 pages of Cedar Rapids:

We learn that Tim is a nice guy but a dork.
He is used to being let down and overlooked at work.
He lives alone in his Mothers house.
His Mother is dead.
He is engaged to his old school teacher and Mothers best friend.
He has never left the town he grew up in.
He is scared of leaving the town he grew up in.
His hero and mentor has died.
Not only his hero but his  surrogate father in many ways.

**EDIT**

I am guilty of being too on the nose here, and too literal really. What I should have said is something much simpler... Via the above discoveries we learn that Tim has never really grown up and become independent, he has highly likely never had an an emotional attachment to any girl outside his mother and teacher and he lacks the self confidence to speak his own mind or even travel outside the only environment he knows. He is a newborn child reluctant to leave the womb.

We learn all of this from just a couple of scenes in the first 10 pages.

**/EDIT**

Now when we come to page 11/12 we are told what the rest of the story is going to be about (by the way perfect timing in terms of structure). Tim is going to have to leave the town and travel outside his state for the first time in order to save the company he has worked at all his life.

Taking everything we have learned about Tim into consideration this is huge, this is a real story and we already want Tim to succeed. But if we never knew all these things that we knew about Tim then it would not be huge at all, it would not be a great story and we would not really care that a much at all when we learn what is to come.

But here is where the writers skill comes into play, we were never really told any of this information! We learned it through dialogue and action that was never obviously trying to tell us this. And this is how this character seeps into our consciousness without us trying to hard to think about it.

This is exactly what happens in real life,  when we meet people we are unconsciously deciding whether we like them or not. Our decision is based upon their words and actions, but nobody comes up to you, shakes your hand and says "Hi I am Tim, I miss my mom and am scared to leave this town". We learn these things about people by discussing football, by how they order a meal, there response to a question about airports etc.. etc..

In the vast majority of the scripts on sites like SS we would still no doubt learn all of this information by page 11 but we would be told it, it would be on the nose, it certainly would not seep into our brains by itself. As a consequence characters do not feel real and thus we do not have that emotional attachment that we really need to believe in the journey.

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rendevous  -  October 5th, 2010, 7:36pm
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rendevous
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 6:59pm Report to Moderator
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Delusional. I did that up in Donegal recently, after a skinful. Couldn't find the fucking rented house after a skinful, thought I was gonna die.

Happily I survived. Got a script outta it. However, I try and keep it just to the characters. Nice to see you about round the boards again Seay, keep it cooking as ya do. Heway ya bollix ya.

HR xo


Out Of Character - updated


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Other scripts here
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Grandma Bear
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 7:21pm Report to Moderator
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I think Murphy might be on to something here. Especially about the comment about subtleness.

All I know is that I read a lot of both produced and unproduced scripts and I bet if I was given two scripts two read, one from each group, I would be able to tell which one was which. My problem is that I have not been able to pinpoint why and what makes them different.

I agree with you too Rick. All of it. And for those who say Hollywood keep churning out crap, I want to ask you if you have read the script of that film. Like I said earlier, many times the final movie isn't really much like the script at all. IMO, the script that I loved that the film came the closest to the script might actually be Silence of The Lambs. In that particular case the book, the screenplay and the film are almost identical. There are a lot of things that play a huge part in a film and just because a script is great does not guarantee a great movie.

You know what they say to aspiring filmmakers though, you have to start with a GREAT script. Maybe everyone knows that the final film will never be as good as the script so if you start with a less than great script, you're not going to make great film.

In regards to Frozen, I didn't say it was brilliant or great even. I just said that the first 10 pages were so so, but then things picked up and I cared about the characters and I wanted to know what happened next. I read it in 2 hours...no breaks because I was interested. Something in that script made me want to turn the pages. In other words, I wanted to know what it is with pro scripts that makes that difference. No offense to anyone here at all, but ask yourself how many features you read here that are page turners?...



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Baltis.
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 7:21pm Report to Moderator
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Bullet points are nice to address within other people's scripts but seldom do they reflect as fluidly within your own.  I currently have a script with 33 characters, on its 3rd draft, and I sent 12 pages, ironically, to a writer here who I admire a great deal... I think I might have even e-mailed him, after the fact, bullet points of what happens in rebuttal to what he had said.  After reading the script again and taking his crit into consideration I realized just how off the pace was.  

I've since changed the name of the location
I've since rearranged the scenes of the 1st 15 pages
I've since even took out Two whole characters

What all this means is, just because YOU see something doesn't mean others will.  We can bullet point unpolished material and make it match up like cherries on a slot machine, but if the content isn't good... It's going to show.  I haven't read Cedar Rapids, by the way.  This is just an observation of the top 3 things the 1st 10 to 12 pages of anybodies script should embody.

Setting
Character
Conflict


Backstory and goals do not have to play into these pages.  Depth will be built upon the foundation of the 1st 2 acts.  
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rendevous
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Pia makes an immaculate point here, which I woula ignored to watch Matchpoint which I just got on DVD, hang on, I'll be telling you what I had for dinner and the state of the Irish Economy next, er...

Oh yeah, the difference between Pro and Amateur.

When I used to manage bands, I'm talking small scale, bottom feeders, if you will. But I was good. Always made it pay.

You can tell as soon as they walk out to play. I gotta see the entrance, because in that is everything you need to know. I knew before they played a note if they had it. And I was always proved right. Dido is a prime example. I knew, before most of the Uk did she was gonna be massive. Hey, hate her or love her, she made good tunes.

The same logic applies to scripts. Which is what Me hits on. Some folks got it, and some folks ain't. The difference is small. And huge. It's difficult to put your finger on. But if you been in the business long enough it's easy to spot.

Reservoir Dogs says it best


Quoted from RD's Steve Buscemi aka Mr. Pink
Some fellas are lucky and some ain't.


Out Of Character - updated


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mcornetto
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 7:45pm Report to Moderator
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I would say the separation is geographic - if we're talking about Hollywood film production.  Most professional screenwriters live in LA along with the filmmakers, readers and crew who make the films.  

This gives them the advantage of being immersed in the culture that can greenlight their script.   They talk the same talk and walk the same walk and therefore their scripts connect with the production people that matter.  And if it doesn't connect right away then they can easily do meetings to make it work.

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Grandma Bear
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Rendevous, I think you're right too. It goes for all types of businesses. The people that are pros and are in the business only need a glance and they can tell. I used to be in the sport horse business and even though I was not a big player, I can still tell by just looking at a horse if it has what it takes to be a good jumper or dressage horse. I can tell just by conformation if it has potential or not. If I think it might, I want to see it move. If it passes that test too, I want to see it ridden. I imagine that's how it is when you've been in the business for a while. Regardless of what business it is.


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Electric Dreamer
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 7:55pm Report to Moderator
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My two cents about SS, unproduced and produced scripts.
The difference for me is momentum.
I'm tired of reactionary protagonists that stumble from one plot convenience to the next.
I want characters with goals that take steps to achieve those objectives.
I learn much more about characters by how they go about reaching their goals.
You learn nothing when they are always escaping or reacting to plot convenience.
I want to see the dilemmas they face as they strive for their goals.
I want to see the consequences of how they chose to deal with those dilemmas.
Dilemmas/moral conflict are sorely lacking in most scripts these days.

Regards,
E.D.


LATEST NEWS

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is producing a short based on my new feature!

A list of my scripts can be found here.
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Dreamscale
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 8:00pm Report to Moderator
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Well...surprise, surprise, I've got to disagree again here.

Although I do agree with Ren and Pia about being able to "see" that a band has potential or a horse has the right stuff..it goers much further than that.

If a band has never played in front of a certain size audience, it could take them a few times to understand what they're in to.  It's a learning curve that can easily be overcome with talent.  There are s o many examples of young musicians who just hadn't found their stride yet  that did with time.

If a horse or whatever doesn't have the genes or whatever to make it a potentially great horse, it shouldn't be competing with those that do...but I I'm not a big horse person.

Take an athlete...these days, pro sports teams are looking at younger and younger athletes, long before they're ready to go pro, and trying to do what they can to "groom" them along.

Writing is completely different.  I do agree that it's easy to rad a single page or even a single sentence and get an idea of the talent or potential of the writer, but that doesn't mean that from there, there's any big difference, base on skill or talent.

Even terrible writers can be great screenwriters.  It's completely true.  Do I think this is a good thing? No, I don't.  But it's not for me to say.
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seamus19382
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 8:03pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from rendevous
Delusional. I did that up in Donegal recently, after a skinful. Couldn't find the fucking rented house after a skinful, thought I was gonna die.

Happily I survived. Got a script outta it. However, I try and keep it just to the characters. Nice to see you about round the boards again Seay, keep it cooking as ya do. Heway ya bollix ya.

HR xo


What the heck is a skinfull?  You've used it three times in two posts, and I have no idea what it mens.

And leave my bollix out of this!
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Murphy
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 8:11pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale


Writing is no different.  I do agree that it's easy to rad a single page or even a single sentence and get an idea of the talent or potential of the writer, but from there, there is a big difference, and talent means nothing unless you learn the skills to put it to good use.

Even terrible writers can become great screenwriters.  It's completely true.  This is a good thing. Do I believe it though? No, I don't.  But it's not for me to say.


Fixed your post for you!
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Dreamscale
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 8:30pm Report to Moderator
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Murph, you didn't fix the drunk typos, though!  

Nah, man, I completely disagree.  You guys are basically saying that if/when an SS unproduced writer sells a script for major cashola, somehow they're a different writer all of a sudden...a different quality.  And that's not the case at all.

One of these days, you guys...one of these days...I'm going to prove you wrong and then the debate will get very interesting.

COUNTDOWN TO ADMISSION TO INSANE ASYLUM FOR JEFF...most likely within 1 month...
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Murphy
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 8:46pm Report to Moderator
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No, you have got it the wrong way round.

I am not suggesting for a minute that being produced makes you a better writer, I am saying becoming a better writer is just about the only way to get your work produced.

Nobody is born talented, Alfred Hitchcock did not come out of the womb with the screenplay for Psycho clenched between his wrinkled and bloody butcheecks. Just like Thierry Henry never pissed around during his teens and only realised he could play football when kicking can while stumbling home from the pub.

To be a good screenwriter means working hard and learning your craft, understanding how story is structured and delivered. Anyone can learn this, even crap writers today can become great writers tomorrow. Yes some people have a natural flair for some things, some people find it easier to understand. But it is wrong to even think that is all there is too it.

The answer to Pia's question is quite simple really....

What separates SS writers from the pros? The pros have learned and understand how to write screenplays, the SS writers are still learning.

How do we know when an SS writer has become as good as the pros? They sell a script!

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dogglebe
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 8:51pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Murphy
What separates SS writers from the pros? The pros have learned and understand how to write screenplays, the SS writers are still learning.

How do we know when an SS writer has become as good as the pros? They sell a script!


I'm gonna have to disagree with you here.  Selling a script just means that someone likes your script enough to pay for it.  And what if it's being done by a film student who's giving you points on the back end.  Does that make you good?

I don't think that there's any correct definition to the words 'good' and 'pro.'  THat would be like saying that studios would buy your scripts if you score a seven out of ten on the script scale.


Phil
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Grandma Bear
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Phil, what I'm saying is that I see a difference in pro scripts and scripts here. I'm just trying to figure out exactly what it is that makes that difference.

I wonder how many people that are in this discussion here actually read a lot of pro scripts? When you've read a TON of them, I think the difference is easier to see or am I wrong?


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dogglebe
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 9:02pm Report to Moderator
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To be honest, I haven't read too many professional scripts.  I'm too busy writing my own.  

I have the formatting down.  I just have to get the story on paper and out there.


Phil
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Murphy
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 9:05pm Report to Moderator
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Phil, you have to excuse my meanings here.

I am not really talking about the artistic merit of a writer here, when I say good I am talking about pro, i.e. selling scripts and being paid to write them by Hollywood. And for good read writing something that a studio wants to buy, a director wants to direct, a star wants to act in and an audience wants to watch.

To me this is the definition of a pro writer. Whether he writes 3rd rate rom-coms full of plot holes or brilliant, intricate dramas that win Oscars. In the world of Hollywood there is no difference between the two, and usually the writer of crap will get paid the more. Someone who knows their market, understands their craft, can tell a good story and keep readers engaged is a pro level writer IMO and anyone with these skills WILL get produced if they work hard enough at it.  
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dogglebe
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 9:16pm Report to Moderator
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Who the fuck knows?  I've seen movies so bad I wanted to walk out... and they were in-flight movies.

Somehow, Johnny Screenplay gets his script in the right hands.  How does he do that?  Who the fuck knows?  Maybe he went to school with the director's brother.  Maybe he cleans the leading man's pool.  Maybe those screenplay competitions are delivering what they promise.

I spend a lot of time showing my scripts around.  For the most part, I've been showing them to the smaller fish in the pond.  If enough of my shorts get produced, I might get the attention of the bigger fish (though Bad Penguin has the attention of a big fish).

As soon as I get some money, I'm going to start entering the competitions again.  I think it helped me.


Phil

Revision History (1 edits)
rendevous  -  October 5th, 2010, 10:19pm
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Ledbetter
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 9:34pm Report to Moderator
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I suppose it depends on HOW you ask the question.

One could say the TRUE answer is this - MONEY!

When you're poor, you're crazy...
When you're rich, you're esentric.

As an artist, when you're poor, you are "starving"...
When you make it, you're essential.

A unproduced screen writer is a "spec writer"
Someone who sells a script is accomplished.

Or perhaps another way...
Every writer, is just like us. Only differience is, lightning struck, lotto won, horse came in and something that burned in their hearts to write actually stuck and wham, they sell something.

I like that scenerio. I have seen a hundred scripts on this site, I thought should be on the screen. Will they ever? Don't know. Will mine? again, don't know.

One thing I do know is, if you love doing this, pay is secondary but nice, very nice.

Us from a pro? The cost.





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George Willson
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 9:49pm Report to Moderator
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Hm, okay. I think the first problem with this thread is that it starts with a blanket premise that attempts to encapsulate EVERYONE on this site, and then attempts to summarize everyone as well. I've read a lot of scripts on here, and sure, some are not so good, but some are great. To say you've NEVER read ANYTHING on here by the unproduced writers and tell me that none of them measure up to a professional level only tells me that you haven't read enough scripts on here to know what the hell you're talking about. Might I direct you to a thread entitled Simply Recommended Scripts. A good portion of these are considered to be the cream of the crop around here (no, not all, but a lot of them). When you see a title repeated over and over again, there is likely something to that. Before you make a snap judgement call over the writers here, read something that people around here actually recommend, and not Joe Shmo's first draft that he posted last week.

My answer to the posed question? Well, I can't make a blanket answer because we have all manner of writers here from "I've written a 3 page short once" to "I've just sold another one." Yeah, I did just write that. People have posted scripts on here, and because of it being here, the right person found it, and bought it leading that person to request Don to remove it. So, for some, apparently, they are pros. For others, it's experience. For others, maybe it's just a sale.

But to just say that NO ONE can write a pro level script on here is flat ignorance. It just means that you haven't looked in the right place yet.


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Murphy
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 9:52pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from dogglebe
Who the fuck knows?  I've seen movies so bad I wanted to walk out... and there in-flight movies.


Same here, I think most films released are crap. But often they make a lot of money, and the writers are pro writers, who will get paid more money to write another one. This is because essentially they are good writers who know what they are writing and who they are writing it for.

I think Dreamscale is confusing a badly written script with a well written but bad film.

The majority of the scripts on this site are not well written scripts, although they certainly have higher motives and loftier ambitions than "insert rubbish film here"  it still does not take away from the fact that "insert rubbish film here is a better written screenplay. Even crap films are on the face of it written by people who understand screenwriting and have written a good script, that is why they are paid to do it.

I have read 100's of pro scripts this year and every single one stands out compared to scripts on this site, with very few exceptions (not going to name those). And I think it is important that all of us read pro scripts and begin to understand that difference if we are ever going to improve.

And to clarify I am not talking about writing styles or format here, I am not talking about finding your own voice. I am not even talking about ideas and a good premise. I am talking about the basics, I am talking about storytelling.
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Murphy
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 9:57pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from George Willson
to just say that NO ONE can write a pro level script on here is flat ignorance. It just means that you haven't looked in the right place yet.


With the greatest of respect this tells me you have not read my posts and therefore is flat ignorance too.

I never said that. And yet again the question is what is the difference between pro writers and SS writers? The fact that you are telling me to go look at some thread for some good examples and not my local blockbuster is your answer.

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Grandma Bear
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George, all I was saying is that I've read a TON of scripts over the years and I can tell when I'm reading a pro script and when I'm not. I can't tell why I can tell, but I can tell.

It's not a jab at SS members, I'm just simply saying there is a difference IMHO.

Btw, just so everyone knows, please don't confuse this with me not having read scripts I like here. I have! And I know people's styles and I love watching how you guys evolve as writers. I'm just trying to figure out why pro and amateur scripts read differently. That's all.


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George Willson
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 10:32pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Murphy

With the greatest of respect this tells me you have not read my posts and therefore is flat ignorance too.

I never said that. And yet again the question is what is the difference between pro writers and SS writers? The fact that you are telling me to go look at some thread for some good examples and not my local blockbuster is your answer.


I haven't?


Quoted from Murphy
Quote 1: I have read hundreds of "pro" scripts over the last year, including un-produced blacklist scripts (which for the purposes of this I would include as pro) and I can honestly say that there is only 3 screenplays I have ever read by SS writers that would be good enough to considered as good as the worst of those.

Quote 2: Don't get me wrong, this is not supposed to be a dig at any writers here, there are some good writers here who are improving greatly and will maybe one day write a great script. But there is no point anyine deceiving themselves with the notion that the only difference boils down to luck, being in the right place, knowing the right people etc.. That is never gonna get anyone anywhere. The difference lies in the skill level of the writer.  

Quote 3: What separates SS writers from the pros? The pros have learned and understand how to write screenplays, the SS writers are still learning.
How do we know when an SS writer has become as good as the pros? They sell a script!


What have I missed? What did I misread? You flat out state that SS writers (with the exception of only 3 scripts) are unskilled and only that lack of skill as opposed to right place, right time prevents their forward momentum. I don't think I took these out of context, and you did state not to take you wrong, and yet, these are full paragraph quote, not pieces of sentences.

Now let me tell you something. You place the full responsibility of taken or not in the hands of the skill of the writer. This implies that these writers have gotten their scripts into the hands of the producers, and these producers have rejected them based solely on the merits of their writing. Here's why this statement pisses me off: I have been rejected, but not based on my scripts. I have queried and tried for years, and yet, no one is interested. Maybe it's my premises. Maybe it's my presentation. Maybe it's the...gasp...wrong time. My biggest beef is that they're unwilling to give me a chance.

So yeah, I actually do take offense to what you're saying because if I'd had bites and set a script in and THEN it was rejected, I would say maybe you have a point. Maybe that is something I need to work on. However, since no such request has come across from all the queries I've sent over the years, I can't say that. How many people can?

Whether my actual stories are good or not is a matter of opinion, but I've been told that what I write is very easy to read. Even if the script is weak, it flows from page to page. Unless, of course, the implication here is that the bad writers are also incapable of reading intelligently as well.

You can say that's not what you're saying all you want, but I'll speak up for everyone who has not written one of your three "jewels" and state that I continue to write and work toward the goal of finding whatever the hell they're looking for. If no offense was intended, then perhaps you should work on your writing, since you apparently can't get your message across either.

Oh, and I referred to the thread because I can only guess that you haven't. You response also tells me that you don't care, which leads me to wonder, again, what your goal is on this thread if not to insult us.

Pia, I'm not taking issue with you here. You've simply stated there is a difference, but the thread took a rather disgusting turn at some point. What is the difference? It could be nothing more than mindset going into it. You know whether you're reading a pro script or not. I wonder if you were given a good SS script that you haven't read along side a pro script that was never produced whether you could tell the diff in a blind test.


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Murphy
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 11:08pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from George Willson

Oh, and I referred to the thread because I can only guess that you haven't. You response also tells me that you don't care, which leads me to wonder, again, what your goal is on this thread if not to insult us.


By the way, if you read that thread you would see I have actually posted on it before, so pretty obvious I have read it and read some of the scripts on it. A little fact finding would be a good idea in future before throwing accusations around.

An no, of course my posts are not meant to insult anyone. If a bee has crawled up your ass today then in no way was it my intention to put it there. My posts have been quite clear that I think many writers on this site have the imagination and talent to write good scripts but most are still lacking the skills as displayed by pro writers. If you do not want to believe that then that is fine, but to accuse me of insulting people is just complete and utter rubbish to be quite frank and I find that insulting.

I would like to believe that writers are submitting work here because they want to improve as writers, that they already know they still have lots to learn. What does pretending that the thing standing in the way of being a pro is those awful producers and their inability to pick a good script when it is sent to them?

There is a belief on this site, and always has been, that as long as your slugs are formatted correctly and you don't write unfilmables that you are a screenwriter and the only thing stopping you making it big are... you don't live in L.A./you don't know the right people/It takes luck blah... blah... blah....

Well that is just wrong, the real reason is simply that your writing is not good enough yet. Reading pro scripts is proof of this, they simply are better written than most things here. And I firmly believe that if you write a great script then it will get you noticed, lthe world is too small now, it is easy to have a great script in the hands of the right people. People do send  scripts on, the studios do want great scripts. It is self defeating and a waste of time to assume your writing is as good as any pro and it is all bad luck stopping you selling something. Surely it makes sense to keep learning and keep improving until your writing is good enough?

Sorry if it is harsh, sorry if it sucks. But the truth of the matter is the reason why the vast majority of screenplays go unproduced is because they are not good enough. If that is deemed as being insulting to one of these scripts then so be it, the worlds a tough place and if you want to compete in it then you need to toughen up and get better at it.


  
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George Willson
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 11:17pm Report to Moderator
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I would believe this if only I had not experienced the side where they do not even wish to read the script. You say it's easy to get a script into the hands of the right people. I want to know how. I've never done it. At this point, I would take a legitimate script-based rejection just to know that the script is the reason I have never sold anything. However, that is not the case here. I continue writing, but I don't know if my writing is actually good enough because it has never been in the hands of those who make that decision.

Therefore, what is stopping me? You actually can't say it is my writing. You can't say this because no one in that capacity has read it.

I want to know how you get a script easily into those hands? Pray tell me so I can be rejected for my writing.

And I have said for a long time that story and character are paramount. Format takes a couple hours and a monkey can do it. A well formatted script isn't worth the paper it's printed on if the story sucks.


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seamus19382
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 11:21pm Report to Moderator
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With all due respect, Geroge, I think you're overreacting a bit.  No one is intending to insult anyone here..

Pia asked the difference, and Murph gave a really clear reason as to why he thought they were different, and a gave some examples.

And this isn't meant to offend anyone, but Murphs right.  There have only been three or four (or five or six) screenplays that I've read on this site that were of the quality that I could see them being produced and I could go to a theater and see them.  

But I have seen, as Murph pointed out, plenty of screenplays that with some work, and some effort, could be produced, and played in theaters.

I can only speak for myself,  but I certainly lump myself in the category of not as good as pro writers, and I don't think I'm going to  far to say Murph does too.
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Murphy
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 11:31pm Report to Moderator
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Hahaha, spot on. I have got more chance of marrying Beyonce than I have of selling a script at the moment, that is because I am not good enough. Yet.

But I am learning, I am reading, lots. I can spot the difference a mile away between pro and SS scripts, but still find it hard to pinpoint those differences fully. But they are there, and when reading they are as clear as daylight.

George, Look at the scripts on the blacklist, read some of the reviews on sites like scriptshadow. There are stories there about how specs get discovered, whether it be through through high profile competitions, sending them out to every agency in Hollywood, flying to Hollywood and kicking down doors, networking and meeting the right people on message boards, and plenty more.

And no I am not contradicting myself about it not being who you know, sometimes you have to work hard and find these people in order to know them.

But most of all, and most importantly, I believe that cream rises to the top. If you write a great script, with a great story and premise then it will be discovered as long as you put it out there. Despite popular opinion, and often my opinion, the industry does want good scripts, there are lots of people paid to read scripts, your scripts will get read, problem is it seems that you will only get to hear about it if it is any good.

Thank you Seamus.
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George Willson
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 11:32pm Report to Moderator
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Part of achieving any goal is having the correct mindset. If we set ourselves upon the task of writing with the thought that we're going to try to write something good enough, but that we are certainly not as good as a pro (whatever that is), then we will inevitably turn out a script that is not as good as a pro. However, if we consider that we are all writers, and whether pro or amateur, we all start out with the same blank page, then we realize that we can write that good. We are capable.

Seamus, you say you aren't that good, but what are you judging this on? Your last script? Well, you haven't written your next one yet, so who's to say it won't be on par with whoever you're striving to match? I would rather have a positive environment that says we can accomplish something great than have anything descend into the possibly very real ideal that maybe we aren't that good. Everyone can improve any skill they have, but when a child is learning piano, do you praise his progress, or tell him every day that Mozart was better at his age?

This board is a place of encouragement, and this thread has been anything but. Regardless of intent or opinion, can anyone say that after reading the various comments that you are encouraged to go out and write something? I sat down to write this evening, but after this thread, my inspiration flew out the window. If you want to know why I was bothered, that's why.


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Grandma Bear
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 11:40pm Report to Moderator
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we should only have encouraging discussions?    

i honestly was trying to find out what separate us. There is a difference...


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Murphy
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 11:53pm Report to Moderator
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There is no need to take this thread as being negative, and of of course when a child is learning piano you do praise his progress, but what you don't do is tell him he is as good as Mozart already. What is the point of that?

But nowhere in this thread have I suggested anything like that, I am not saying that writers here are not doing the right things, not showing progress, not writing some nice stuff. I am only answering a specific question and I am answering it truthfully and honestly.

I look at a pro script and acknowledge it is better than I could come up with, I use this as a motivation to work harder and learn more. I am trying to learn so much at the moment about story structure and building characters. I am motivated by admitting to myself I still have lots to learn.

I fail to see how a realization that you might not be quite up to the standards of a pro writer is a negative motivator unless you are already a pro writer and hungry. And besides you will not know if your next script is the one that everything falls into place until you write it, so there is all the motivation you need.

To be very clear, I have not said that I think that the writers on this board are not capable of becoming pro writers, All I have said is that presently, based on current work, very few are.  That could change tomorrow when Dreamscale posts the new "Usual Suspects" or Seamus announces his new, unposted feature had been bought Brad Pitt.

You are only as good as your last script and your next one could be the one, but in order for that to happen there are skills that need to be learned and improved, by all of us.


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mcornetto
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 11:54pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Grandma Bear
we should only have encouraging discussions?    

i honestly was trying to find out what separate us. There is a difference...


What separates us is a thin layer of transparent slime which is only visible by the reptile people of planet Alannta.
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George Willson
Posted: October 5th, 2010, 11:56pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Grandma Bear
we should only have encouraging discussions?    

i honestly was trying to find out what separate us. There is a difference...


There is also a difference between a frank discussion over differences between scripts and saying that the reason is that we're all unskilled (save 3, of course, which you've graciously increased to "a few").

If I consider what I've read, it has to do with the writer actually writing to tell the story. One thing we often point out when it comes to pro scripts is that they tend to be freer with stuff like unfilmables, camera directions, asides, and that sort of thing. They do it in moderation, granted, but around here, some crucify over these things. These little things show that the writer has some measure of control over the screenplay aspect of it, and that no one was terribly offended that they went for clarity over brevity. When we read these scripts, we not only know exactly what's going on, but how to picture the scene. I think people here put too much stock in trying to play by whatever rules they find necessary as opposed to focusing on a good story. How many reviews have we all read where there are an endless flow of page numbers pointing out all these "taboo" items? And yet, we'll turn around and complain that the pros can get away with it. All this stuff is in those scripts that sell, and yet we're telling everyone to take it all out. There are some readers here that won't even read scripts that don't fit their idea of the rules.

What separates us? Honestly? The "rules." We need to follow the rules of format, just because it's an industry standard. However, we need to let go of the taboos and overabundance of rules. We should strive for brevity and clarity, of course, but not at the expense of the best way to tell a story. If the best way to show (not tell) a particular moment is an EXTREME CLOSE UP, then we should do it. If "We see" something that can't be conveyed some other way, then "we" should see it. I know how to write around all of these things, but sometimes, it's just clearer and quicker just to say POV instead of "An unknown person looks at..."

That's our separation. We try to follow these rules, and those who've been sold don't worry about it. Screw the rules people. I've said or a long time that they're just learning tools, and you gotta write what you gotta write.

Of course, this should be construed as a license to write total crap. I'm just saying to write something in the best way possible, that's all.


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Grandma Bear
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 12:06am Report to Moderator
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You missed my point... My point was that this script was written like anyone of us here could have written it. "ing" words and all, but my point was that as the story went on it did separate from most of the scripts here. At least to me. It eventually, despite its faults became a page-turner. Maybe this particular script won't for everyone, but my point is that most "pro" scripts do get your interest regardless of format errors, typos and writing style and that's what I'm trying to figure out why the scripts differ.


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mcornetto
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 12:10am Report to Moderator
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Making a script a page turner is a mechnical process.  There's a trick to it.  I get lots of comments about my features and scripts in general about people being forced to continue even though they aren't enjoying the scripts.  And that's just because I employ this trick.

So page turning is not the difference.  It's that layer of transparent slime I tell you!  
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Dreamscale
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 12:13am Report to Moderator
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George, I applaud you for jumping in here with the obvious sincerity that you intended.  And, you are 100% correct in everything you said.

For those who "know" or "think" they do not possess "pro quality", you are also 100% correct.  You don't, and most likely, you never will.  That's not a knock, either.  As you have said, either you have it or you don't...and if you yourself don't think you have it, chances are very, very good that you don't.

As I say over and over again, it just boggles my brain to hear all this horse shit about Pro scripts, Pro writers, blah, blah, blah.  These are all the same Pro writers and Pro scripts which we all fucking hate day in and day out.

And let me try this one more fucking time for those who are a bit dense or just downright dumb...what happens when a non Pro writer, suddenly becomes a Pro writer, because somehow, someway, they sold their baby for big bucks?  Do you suddenly view their script, the same one that you earlier thought was non Pro quality, as a Pro quality script?  HUH?  WTF am I missing here?

If you don't believe in yourself, and you know you can't write worth a fucking shit, why not just do exactly what everyone tells you to do with your piece of shit scripts?  Damn, I'm so confused by all this.

You know, personally, I cherish the moments when people can bring up problems in my scripts.  I crave perfection.  It pisses me off when I make mistakes, miss things, etc.  I go out of my way to let others know of the problems in their scripts, and I get shit on for doing that.

I'm one of a few who can also see obvious flaws and problems in Pro scripts and am not afraid to bring them up, which again is seen as blasphemy, as a Pro writer can't be incorrect...can't do wrong, and all should praise it at its fucking little temple.

C'mon, people!  Get out of the sheep mode you're in.  Believe!  Strive to set your own agendas.  Dance to your own beat and be proud to do so.

WEAK!!!!
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Baltis.
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 12:18am Report to Moderator
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Calling someone a pro because they've sold a million dollar script is like calling my next door neighbor lucky when he whens the lottery.  There isn't any skill involved there.  It's all timing.

I'll be the First to admit I have no passion for screenwriting at the moment.  I have no dedication to the business this very second, but I've read tons of "pro" level scripts, I've done classes, have read all the books, and talked to this person and that person.  I even have an analyst who, in moderation, reads my work nominally.

The story is what matters.  Simple and clean.  If your story sucks -- EXAMPLE "Frozen" -- It sucks and there isn't anything you can do about it.  I don't care how crafty and word savvy you are.  Your story has to be good.  

For instance, I know proper format.  I can write a very clean looking script.  I don't even have to use "ING" words if I don't want to.  But if all I'm writing is "SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT", it isn't going to matter how it's formated.

The audience isn't reading your script.  They're watching it.  A script isn't something you brag about until you sell it.  Unless it's something I've written.  Then it's the best thing ever.  And even peanut butter is jealous of it.
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Grandma Bear
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 12:22am Report to Moderator
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all I'm going to say is how many features do you read in a month and how many of those are "pro" scripts?  Start reading ten of each every month and you will soon see what we are talking about...

and Balt, just because you don't like something doesn't it's crap...


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Murphy
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 12:25am Report to Moderator
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Yeah, you are right, I am wrong, sorry about that, God knows what I was thinking.

It's screenwriting, there are no skills to learn and develop, no hard work needed, you either have it or you don't and if you don't you never will.

It is all down to luck, getting produced is nothing more than catching a break, Fade to White is a piece of genius and just bloody unlucky that Hollywood have not yet discovered it.

I will depart this thread, will leave it for those that "have it".

Good luck with that!
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Baltis.
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 12:26am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Grandma Bear
all I'm going to say is how many features do you read in a month and how many of those are "pro" scripts?  Start reading ten of each every month and you will soon see what we are talking about...


I'll say I've read about 70 to 75% of the movies I have been inspired by.  A month I probably read 2 or 3 feature length scripts.  And they often don't inspire me, either.  It depends on how readily available they are.  We're talking actual copies, by the way.  Not rewritten word pad copies of movies or shooting scripts.  Then again, it's more of a hobby of mine and not a passion at the moment.  Some of you all are much more dedicated and more sincere about making it than I am, maybe ever will be.

Edit for Pia - Nope, you're right.  Just because I hate Waffles and prefer pancakes, doesn't mean Waffles aren't in demand.  I agree.  But One thing that is a certainty when One sets out to write a script -- The story has to be good or do something to stand out.  Be it so shocking it's revolting.  Be it so new it spawns a new genre.  Be it so suck it creates a new word for the word Suck.

Now, of course movies are made all the time.  90% of them do nothing new or different from the next in the genre it represents.  Those movies are products.  Those movies are like toys on an assembly line.  
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rendevous
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 12:30am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Grandma Bear
Rendevous, I think you're right too. It goes for all types of businesses. The people that are pros and are in the business only need a glance and they can tell. I used to be in the sport horse business and even though I was not a big player, I can still tell by just looking at a horse if it has what it takes to be a good jumper or dressage horse. I can tell just by conformation if it has potential or not. If I think it might, I want to see it move. If it passes that test too, I want to see it ridden. I imagine that's how it is when you've been in the business for a while. Regardless of what business it is.


Ah, while I was sleeping I see the mice were at play. Nice guns... Did I call 'em gloves earlier? Musta been the whiskey...

Either way you seem to have hit a nerve young lady, judging by all this verbiage later. I see Murph and GW have some good points but I'll stick to yours, as you started it.

Here's how you become a good screenwriter - I wouldn't say I'm one, but even if I was I wouldn't admit it, but, I know a few.

Firstly, get the fuck out your house and get out there. Fly. Visit other places. Meet people. Don't piss them off. Talk to folk. Learn things like


Quoted from Me
I want to see it ridden.


sounds to Irish people like you're talking inadvertantly about sex. Just like Jasper Carrot used to make Ozzies laugh by ROOTING in his attic. Er, the young in both countries keep changing their slang for it so be carefull and get it right.

Personally, not my favourite word but it will sufice for now, I've had a few minor credits on a few minor movies. What separates us from the big folks who live on the Hill?

Not much. They need people like us. If you wanna become one of them, like Danny Boyle, from Radcliffe in Manchester did then you just gotta perservere, Of course you need talent, and skill with people and words. But, if you watch Shallow Grave, Trainspotting, Millions and Slumdog Millionaire you may think this: wow. I coulda directed this. I do. And I will.

SO there. Pia, whatever they say about you I've always admired Swedes who live elsewhere. And your works good. You certainly know how to put the cat amongst the pigeons. Stay on the radio. If you wanna guest, I need encouraging.

Hugh xo


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Grandma Bear
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 12:33am Report to Moderator
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my comment wasn't really aimed at you Balt. you just posted something while i was typing.  

anyway, all i was trying to do here was open a discussion about the differences. if people don't read a lot of pro scripts then i can see how this is not helpful, but a lot of "serious" writers i know, refrain from reading amateur scripts and instead read only pro scripts...


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Dreamscale
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 12:43am Report to Moderator
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For some really odd reason, no one can respond to a point I continue to make...

So...what happens when an SS script turns into a feature movie?  Does it change the talent level of that writer?  Does it make him or her a Pro?  Does it mean suddenly that they write at a Pro quality?

Do all Pro scripts just flat out rock?  Was the script for 88 Minutes a great concept that was well researched, made alot of sense, and was just dying to be made into a feature with Al Pacino and a bunch of other high level talent?

Huh?  Please...tell me.  Enlighten this old, fucking, soon to be insane A-Hole.  
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rendevous
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 12:43am Report to Moderator
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Alright.

Here's why I love SS and will continue to post here...

This place taught me a lot. I teach part time, guitar, English etc. I like kids, I just don't like touching them. I have a broom which I use to show the distance and size of my "aura". One little cocky cow called Fionnula said my aura is actually my ego. All the kids laughed. So did I. Fionnula will probably be Ireland's first female prime minister, aka Taoiseach.

SS taught me a lot. I love reading amateur scrripts. God forbid I have to read Pro ones all day again. A lot of pro ones are about as pro as a load of Rugby players after a match.

But then half of the pro scripts are amazing. They put you in the scene, with minimum words. And they make you feel it. That is a pro script.

HD xo


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Murphy
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 12:48am Report to Moderator
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Actually, I will make one last comment.

You know what pisses me off the most about this site, and always has done?

It is the utterly ironic notion that discussing the act of screenwriting is a no go area. How weird is that? Whenever threads like this spring up they turn into arguments and discussions about how crap a film is and pro writers are just the same as us. There seems to be zero interest at all in actually discussing the real skills needed to write quality screenplays.

Have a look at other sites, read some writers blogs, John August for example and read his readers comments. All people who have a genuine interest in improving as writers. Why do things like the Script Club, when we discussed produced works just fall apart with bickering?

There is a fundamental difference between a well written but bad film and a badly written script and I am amazed that so many supposed "scriptwriters" do not understand this simple and yet true concept. This site should be a place for people to help each other understand what makes a good script good.

It is the strangest thing.
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Murphy
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 12:50am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
For some really odd reason, no one can respond to a point I continue to make...

So...what happens when an SS script turns into a feature movie?  Does it change the talent level of that writer?  Does it make him or her a Pro?  Does it mean suddenly that they write at a Pro quality?

Do all Pro scripts just flat out rock?  Was the script for 88 Minutes a great concept that was well researched, made alot of sense, and was just dying to be made into a feature with Al Pacino and a bunch of other high level talent?

Huh?  Please...tell me.  Enlighten this old, fucking, soon to be insane A-Hole.  


I have already addressed this. Scripts sell because they are good scripts. Therefore a pro writer who has sold a script is a good script writer.
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rendevous
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 12:52am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Murphy


I have already addressed this. Scripts sell because they are good scripts. Therefore a pro writer who has sold a script is a good script writer.


Add that to my points and GWs and Pia's and this conversation is over. Almost.

Love and verbiage,

H ex


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Dreamscale
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 12:53am Report to Moderator
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I agree with you, Murph.  I just don't agree that one has to be a Pro writer to write a good script, and that any non Pro, SS writer doesn't have the talent to write a quality movie.

If 90% or more of the movies that are filmed suck ass, what does that say about the quality of the scripts they are using?  I'd say something is wrong with the assessment of what makes a good script or better yet, a good movie.  The 2 do not necessarily go hand in hand.
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ghost and_ghostie gal
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 12:57am Report to Moderator
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Don't know how this thread got off course, I think I know, but I'm not getting into all that...

My take on the OP's question.  They probably wrote atleast ten screenplays, without pay before they got the hang of the craft.  They've developed their own unique voice.  Ten screenplays before they probably sold their first one unless they caught lightening.  And chances are, they can walk into a boardroom with executives that have been in the industry for a while and have Masters degrees from film school and hold their own story.  Simple... "They know their stuff."  

Can I say that yet?  No, but I'm pretty freakin' close... and so are a lot of writers on this site.

@Pia... this is my take on how I tell the difference.  Hope it helps.

@Welocme back RV... where you been hiding at?  I need a movie poster for my script?

@Baltis... I like your no nonsense, straightforward, tell it like it is approach.  "Peanut butter was funny.

@everyone else... you'll made some good points.

Ghostwriter...


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Murphy
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 12:59am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
I agree with you, Murph.  I just don't agree that on has to be a Pro writer to write a good script, and that any non Pro, SS writer doesn't have the talent to write a quality movie.

If 90% or more of the movies that are filmed suck ass, what does that say about the quality of the scripts they are using?  I'd say something is wrong with the assessment of what makes a good script or better yet, a good movie.  The 2 do not necessarily go hand in hand.


Aaaarrrgghhhh!!!

I have not said that an SS writer does not have the talent to become a good writer.

I have said that there are fundament differences between a pro script and the scripts written by SS writers.

It is you yourself you claimed you either have it or you don't, not me. I don't agree with that, I think that like all things in life it is possible, with hard work, dedication and motivation to achieve just about anything. And while there are things all of us need to improve in order to sell a spec to Hollywood it can be done.

There is a valid reason for Pia to start this thread, there are some lessons to be learned from reading a well planned, well written script with real characters and a good story and there is valid reasons to ask what the differences are between pro scripts and SS scripts.  
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Baltis.
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 2:07am Report to Moderator
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I bet a "pro" writer could post a script here tomorrow, anonymously, and people would view it as just another script from just another member.  Maybe a really good one, but One none the less.

Things like "ING" words would come up.  The 1st act isn't tight enough.  You have too many directions.  You're using too many adjectives and not enough verbs.  

I bet Joe Eszterhas could post Flash Dance under a different name and it'd go un-noticed.  I bet someone would even compare it to a movie they seen in the 80's like it.  To me, if a script adherers to the basic rules of formatting

- As in using the right ledgers and spaces.  Making sure there are no more than 54 lines per page.  And they use the right font and stay away from blatant camera direction --  

A script is a script.  They all look the same or similar.  It's like trying to dicern the quality of a 30 dollar dvd player to a 400 dollar dvd.  It's the content that goes into it that makes or breaks the users interest.  And it's people who separate us from them that make the industry such a tight knit group and members only club.  If people would focus on story and idea above and beyond anything else then there would probably be a lot more talent popping up.  And a helluva lot better movies to enjoy.
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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 3:10am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Grandma Bear


I think, maybe the reason I wanted to mention this script is because I feel that there are so many people here that can definitely write (style wise) as this guy, but seldom do I read scripts by us here that are page turners. What is it that our scripts lack? It's not the writing. Is it the failure to really really test our characters? We don't really put them through the ringer. I'm not talking just about horror here. I'm talking about the dramas the comedies, whatever. Maybe the stakes just aren't high enough? I don't know, but I'd like to know if anyone else has any thoughts on it.



Hello Pia, I'm just about to head into the shopping district of Leipzig, but here there's a more relaxed atmosphere and things don't open until ten. It's very nice to be having some really good coffee that's hard to find in Canada and then to open up to Simply and read this, well, it's very fine, indeed!!!

Here, I believe is one of the very difficult tasks to manage. Really creating viable character conflicts that mesh with plot and where actually, the characters tend to often create problems for themselves that they must solve, often making things worse. When we as writers just construct some make-believe problem that doesn't fit, the reader discerns that, even if only subconsciously. Sometimes of course, OK, maybe a lot, a writer starts there, but then they need to keep asking "why".

Gary's last script is a good example. (IACB) Critical comments were made asking, "Is yelling 'Free Pussy' enough to reduce a bride to tears?" If it is, then there's a super chance for exploration of that girl's character.

Anyways, always enjoy these kinds of discussions because discerning that balance in a script between conflict/character and making it mesh into the particular world of the script is what makes for success. It doesn't necessarily have to be logical, but it needs to be logical in terms of the world we create.

Sandra




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mcornetto
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 3:18am Report to Moderator
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I still think it has something to do with the transparent slime.
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James McClung
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 4:29am Report to Moderator
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Is it possible that we're confusing pro writing for quality writing? I'm not saying the two are mutually exclusive but I think it's the assumption that pro writers are somehow better is what's causing all the controversy.


Quoted from Murphy
To me this is the definition of a pro writer. Whether he writes 3rd rate rom-coms full of plot holes or brilliant, intricate dramas that win Oscars. In the world of Hollywood there is no difference between the two, and usually the writer of crap will get paid the more. Someone who knows their market, understands their craft, can tell a good story and keep readers engaged is a pro level writer IMO and anyone with these skills WILL get produced if they work hard enough at it.


I agree with all except what I've highlighted in bold. I think a lot of pro writers are incapable of telling a good story.

In regards to The Book of Eli, are you saying, Murphy, that in the hands of other directors or other actors, this would've been a better film? I thought the story was just as weak as the film's technical aspects.

What about From Paris With Love? The story is completely nonexistent and Luc Besson has been in the industry for years. Plenty of action and one liners (what the people want, so to speak) but no story.

Let's let a master put it into perspective...



I don't think any writer should strive to be a Quentin Tarantino. There is only one Tarantino. But writers can still take something valuable away from what he says here.

I also don't think anyone who writes a great script will get produced. I was on my first music video set on Sunday (my fifth set in total). 6:30am to 12:30am (first time being on set all day). I finally have a realistic idea of just how hard it is to make a film. It's loaded with complications and with that in mind, there's so many other reasons a script wouldn't be produced that have nothing to do with the script itself. So the "right person, right place, right time" mentality has a lot more resonance to me.

And even if that's not the case, a skilled writer still has to work hard to get their script into the hands of the right people and considering how the studios have resorted to predominantly insider deals, that's harder than ever right now (that is to say, for people who want to break into Hollywood; something I have no desire to do).

That said, just because a writer has the skills doesn't mean they're going to "make it." As many writers as there are here who are still learning, I think there's still some who already know how to tell a kickass story. Maybe you didn't say they don't have what it takes but I think you have at least overlooked them.


Quoted from Murphy
The answer to Pia's question is quite simple really....

What separates SS writers from the pros? The pros have learned and understand how to write screenplays, the SS writers are still learning.

How do we know when an SS writer has become as good as the pros? They sell a script!


LOL. Nah, dude. When I sold my first script, I had no idea what I was doing even two years after writing it.

Based on that script, I was hired to write another script where I, at the very least, had a much better idea of what I was doing. I attribute this to being able to work fast and efficiently on rewrites based on the demands of the producer and being able to discuss changes objectively without being stubborn or too much of a whore. Not because the first script was terrific.

These are also qualities I think are present in at least some of the writers here.

So as before, your views on skill not going unacknowledged, the most significant differences I see between pros and SS are attributed to success, not skill.


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James McClung
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 4:39am Report to Moderator
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Pia, I'll answer your question in a different post as I don't think it's been interpreted as you've intended.

The biggest difference I've seen between the actual content of SS and pro scripts is the action. I think the pros take a lot more liberties with writing action. They're much more descriptive and loaded with onomatopoeias (that is honestly the hardest word to spell ever!). At the same time, they're much more rapid fire.

In regards to the dialogue, I think there's a lot less plain speak.

As for the story and characters, I don't know. When I read pro scripts, they're always of films I've already seen so I find it difficult separating the characters from the actors who play them and the action on the page from the action onscreen.

Admittedly, I don't like reading pro scripts. If I've already seen the movie, I don't see the point. I've read a few of Tarantino's scripts just out of curiosity but that's about it. In any case, the majority of pro scripts I've read are older drafts and they're absolutely awful! I can clearly see why the changes in production were made. Some of it is truly abysmal. Most of all, I take very little away from them and that's not because I resist what they have to offer. More than anything in pro scripts, I see liberties taken by the writers because they came from another time or they knew they were going to get produced regardless.


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sniper
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 7:06am Report to Moderator
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What separates SS writers from the pros? The pros know how to pitch a script - and I guess having an agent doesn't hurt either.


Down in the hole / Jesus tries to crack a smile / Beneath another shovel load
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George Willson
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 7:11am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
George, I applaud you for jumping in here with the obvious sincerity that you intended.  And, you are 100% correct in everything you said.

For those who "know" or "think" they do not possess "pro quality", you are also 100% correct.  You don't, and most likely, you never will.  That's not a knock, either.


Gee, thanks Jeff. It's good to know I've completely wasted the last ten years of my life. For some reason, I was under the impression that after all the positive comments I've received that I at least had a chance. Oh well, perhaps I'll just become a spy and forget the whole thing. Better brush up on my Russian.

And for the record, apparently James is a pro. Did anyone see that coming?


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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 7:24am Report to Moderator
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There is a difference between the majority of pro scripts and the majority of SS scripts.

I think people are getting upset because everyone is being lumped into the same pot regardless of talent etc. However, everyone , professionals included, always needs to look to improve, because the second you stop, that's the second you start slipping. Pro athletes train every day for a reason.

I've already stated what I think the main difference is on page 2.

Breaking it down into its simplest form..it's about focus.

Pro stories are generally better focused on the story and, crucially, are better focused on their intended market.

Look at what Pia said about Frozen. She said the name alone made her check it out. She could picture the poster in her head straight away. That's where pro writers are in a completley different league. They know they are making a PRODUCT and they package that product correctly.

Look at how many people have difficulty writing a log-line...is that at least partly because their stories aren't quite as focused as they could/should be?

Right Time/Right Place argument: Fair shout. However, predicting the right time is part of the business. Babz wants Vampire scripts right now to take advnatage of the Twilight craze. Have all you horror writers got your vampire script on the go? If not, why not? Are you looking at what's going to beyond that, what the next matrkeying bubble is going to be? Werewolves, maybe?

I see that the "rules" have come into it again and I'm forced to disagree with GW's assertion that what separates pros is their freedom with these rules. I think the exact opposite. They follow all the rules that the screenwriting books lay out: high stakes, every scene/every line should be part of the story, the scenes should change the "value" of the story, ticking clock, writing to theme etc.

This is a generalisation and I'm talking about genre movies predominantly, but it's generally true.

Style is definitely important, I'll agree with that. The readability of a pro script can only help to sell it.

Anyway, enough. The good news is that there is a lot of talent on here and the regulars are largely at a professional level imo. I think part of the dispute is because Pia is talking about the kind of scripts that tend to get wide cinema releases...ie the creme de la creme of the Industry...there's levels within the pro field as well.

There are scripts on here better than most of the films I see on say the Horror Channel..and they are good enough that I and other people watch them.

There's still a slight gap between that and the likes of Saw etc that get made into wide release films. IMHO of course.

I think that this thread should inspire people to really push themselves to find those unique characters and story-lines and really go for it.
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rendevous
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Once upon a time everyone was a baby, unless they were cloned, like me.

They we're pro writers when they were little kids. They probably weren't pro writers when they are at school. They were amateurs, like most of us.

The only people actually qualified to judge writing and writers is God, if she's not too busy. Everyone else just has opinions.

I thank you.

RH ox


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Other scripts here
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Dreamscale
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 11:54am Report to Moderator
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George, the quote you used from me was taken out of context...at least the 2nd part.  That was not directed at you in any way.  It was directed at "those" who have continually said there is a difference in skill and talent between a sold script, and an unproduced script.

Murph, you continue to not get it and say things that make zero sense.  You finally answered my question after I went to bed last night, but your answer doesn't compute.  According to you, there are several truths about Pro writers and scripts...

1)  Once a writer sells a script, they are suddenly a different level of writer because they are now a Pro writer.  Pro writers can do no wrong and everything they write is gold.

2)  Once a script sells, it is suddenly on a different level than an unproduced script, and is a better script...actually, all sold scripts are perfect, and perfect examples of how to write a script.

3)  There are only 3 scripts on SS that are potentially Pro level, and therefor, have a chance to be sold and become movies, in your opinion.  But then you also say that "if" any SS script sold, then it should be looked at differently than it was before it sold.

4)  Great writers and great scripts will become Pros and sold scripts just like that, no way around it.  Timing, luck,  connections, education, money and the like all have nothing to do with becoming either a Pro writer or selling a script.
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dogglebe
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 12:57pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Murphy
It's screenwriting, there are no skills to learn and develop, no hard work needed, you either have it or you don't and if you don't you never will.
.

I'm not sure how sarcasm you're using here, but I'll assume none.

While I agree that, if you don't have it you never will, I disagree there not being any skills to learn and develop.  I've gone back to scripts I've written and groan at what I see./  I've actually rewritten and resubmitted a few.  I have two scripts I wrote twenty or thirty years ago that I want to rewrite.  I couldn't get past a few pages of them now; they're awful, but the story is worth getting back to.

Writing is like singing.  If you're tone deaf, you should just give up and stop annoying those within earshot.  If you can sing, you need to work at it if you want to do more than sing in the church choir.



Quoted from Dreamscale
So...what happens when an SS script turns into a feature movie?  Does it change the talent level of that writer?  Does it make him or her a Pro?  Does it mean suddenly that they write at a Pro quality?


It just means that more people will see your work.  Signing your name on a contract doesn't improve your writing skills.  It does mean that people will have higher expectations of you...


Phil

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BoinTN
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There are good and bad writers on both sides of the equation.  The only separation I see between being a professional and amateur is whether you write professionally, i.e., it's how you earn your living.  Right now, it's a part time job for me, seeing money, but not enough to make it the sole income.  Maybe I'm pro-am or something.  But, at the end of the day, I think professionalism is better decided by income than quality for the sake of this discussion.
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James McClung
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 1:05pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from dogglebe
I'm not sure how sarcasm you're using here, but I'll assume none.


I'm just about the worst person at detecting sarcasm on the Internet but...


Quoted from Murphy
It is all down to luck, getting produced is nothing more than catching a break, Fade to White is a piece of genius and just bloody unlucky that Hollywood have not yet discovered it.


That's sarcasm if ever there was any.


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Dreamscale
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 1:15pm Report to Moderator
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How come my scripts always pop up along with sarcasm in these sorts of threads?  

At that point, Murphy was attempting be sarcastic, but since he is not a Pro writer, it's tough to tell what he was trying to say exactly.  Maybe if he works on his writing skills and reads a bunch of old, musty screenwriting books, he'll get to the point where people can understand his point of view, not be be confused with (P.O.V.).

Phil, my question wasn't a serious question, actually.  Just trying to get Murph to stop going both ways with his comments.  Writers can get better, just like archers can shoot straighter and long jumpers can jump longer.
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Scar Tissue Films
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Quoted from dogglebe
.

I'm not sure how sarcasm you're using here, but I'll assume none.

While I agree that, if you don't have it you never will, I disagree there not being any skills to learn and develop.  I've gone back to scripts I've written and groan at what I see./  I've actually rewritten and resubmitted a few.  I have two scripts I wrote twenty or thirty years ago that I want to rewrite.  I couldn't get past a few pages of them now; they're awful, but the story is worth getting back to.

Writing is like singing.  If you're tone deaf, you should just give up and stop annoying those within earshot.  If you can sing, you need to work at it if you want to do more than sing in the church choir.




It just means that more people will see your work.  Signing your name on a contract doesn't improve your writing skills.  It does mean that people will have higher expectations of you...


Phil



Murph's point is that most writers on SS are not at a pro level and shouldn't delude themselves and should instead work hard to get there.

He's being sarcastic.
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dogglebe
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 1:47pm Report to Moderator
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I stand by what I said.


Phil
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Scar Tissue Films
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Quoted from dogglebe
I stand by what I said.


Phil


Which is fair enough..I agree.
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Baltis.
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 2:00pm Report to Moderator
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If the "Nightmare On Elm St - remake script" can be made into a movie... Anything can.  That is all one needs to tell themselves for motivation.  

What with classic dialogue like -- "I'm only petting him" & "We were kids, we would have said anything back then"  This is probably the worst movie I've seen in the last 5 years.  Easily.  Characters float in and out.  There is no decisive lead until about 30 min into it.  Freddy is a sympathetic, misunderstood, monster.  It's all a train wreck.  All of it.

If you consider that script pro level you're crazy.  I have it if you all want to read it too.  Absolute junk.  And yes, even my worst script is better.
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Dreamscale
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 2:04pm Report to Moderator
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I'd like to see it, Balt.  Can you E-mail it over to me?  jeffbush3@broadstripe.net.  Thanks.

BTW, I read the first 30 pages of Frozen and was so unimpressed.  Just garbage, IMO.  I'll be watching the actual movie this weekend.
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Grandma Bear
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Jeff,

if I was to write comments on the script for Frozen I would have a bunch too. What bothered me most were little things like it being winter on the ski slopes and then we suddenly have thunder! Then some snow some hail then the moon shines and more thunder and snow... Not to mention the loooong set-up.

I didn't say this script was brilliant or anything. This question I had didn't even have to do with the Frozen script. I meant in general. Frozen did have something that I'm trying to figure out what it was as this happens to me a lot when I read "pro" scripts and that seldom happens to me when I read scripts here. Something kept me reading. Was it the characters? Maybe. I'm pretty sure that the situation got continuously worse for them had something to do with it too. I don't know, but please don't misunderstand and think I loved this script.

I read Let Me In today!  Now that was good!  Completely different style from Frozen which was written sort of on the plain side.


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Dreamscale
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 2:55pm Report to Moderator
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I know, Pia.  I'm just really surprised you felt anything for the characters, cause there wasn't much to really like or relate to.  The dialogue went nowhere as well, and the first 25 pages were basically all dialogue.

To me, this is a script that would be put down quickly for so many different reasons.

We all view things differently, and that's cool with me.
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 3:49pm Report to Moderator
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A while ago I suggested a special version of the script club where we take a board member's script and compare and contrast it to a successful example of the genre...eg one that's either sold for a good amount, or has made a successful film, in order to see how it can be improved and tightened etc

I'm going to suggest that again.
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mcornetto
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 3:52pm Report to Moderator
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I think we should do a blind taste test where we have 10 single pages from a script, some from SS some from pros and see how many people can tell which is which.
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Scar Tissue Films
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Quoted from mcornetto
I think we should do a blind taste test where we have 10 single pages from a script, some from SS some from pros and see how many people can tell which is which.


I thought about that as well.

Be good if someone could pick a mix...blacklist, top class types, mediocre cinema releases, flops, then the generally accepted better quality ones from ss, downwards.
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dogglebe
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 4:00pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from mcornetto
I think we should do a blind taste test where we have 10 single pages from a script, some from SS some from pros and see how many people can tell which is which.


It would have to be an unposted script.  

My two cents.


Phil

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Murphy
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 4:17pm Report to Moderator
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Dreamscale, I have made my point clear enough, if you cannot understand it then you obviously have a problem, not me. Why you insist on keep coming back with silly claims, taking my words out of context is a puzzle.

In the context of this thread, and Pia's question,  pro script is a script that is deemed good enough to be sold, or at least get mentioned on the black list. I am talking about specs here, primarily because this is what is important to me.

I have never, not once, suggested that a pro script only becomes a pro script when it is sold. My logic is clear on this, A spec will only get sold if it is a pro script. You keep getting that the wrong way round and there is a fundamental difference. If a SS script gets sold it does not suddenly become a pro script, my reasoning is that if an SS script gets sold it is because it already is a pro script.

Screewriting is an art, it is a craft and in order to be successful at it you need to work hard, there are lots of things to learn. And again, this has nothing to do with format, this is about writing stories. Part of that learning process is writing scripts, though in the majority of cases these scripts are not great, they are not well written enough to be sold. SS is full of these scripts! But that is okay, that is not a dig, this is a starting point, every script that someone writes will be better than the last until one day it all falls into place.

What I get from this thread is that there are people who think they can already write scripts as good as the pros and it is only bad luck stopping them getting sold, and therefore they do not need to improve, therefore the theory of story structure does not apply to them.

There is a saying...

"Only a fool does the same thing each time and expects a different result".

This kind of thinking is delusional.

I can read any spec script and immediately know it was written by someone who understands at least the basics of writing a screenplay, and again, just for the folks at the back, this has nothing to do with format. I personally do not give a  shit whether your slugs are in bright pink and you have six "smash to's" on every page. I am talking about screenwriting skills like character development, dialogue that tells me more than just what characters are saying, dramatic structure, theme and more.

It is no coincidence that the scripts that are deemed good enough to be at this level are written by writers who have at least a basic grasp of these concepts. They are there, in all of these scripts. Even if the script is overall pretty bad, you can still see the skill that was used to write it. In fact it often makes it easier to pinpoint where the scripts falls down if it has been written professionally.

There are very few scripts here that I can say are written as well.

if you don't want to believe then fine, if you want to carry on deluding yourself then fine, I don't really care, But I fail to see how anybody can be successful at anything if they cannot at least acknowledge those who are and try and figure out why they are.

And that really is my last word.  
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mcornetto
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 4:36pm Report to Moderator
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Ok.  Anyone interested in the Blind Taste Test send (to my email address which can be found in my profile).

The image of a single page from a script.  You can usually do this on windows by hitting Alt/PrtScr while you have the pdf open to the page and it's the topmost window.  Then you can usually paste it into the email.  I don't know how to do this on a Mac. (One page per person please).  

Indicate whether you consider it professional or SS, who the author is and the name of the script it is from.

Please make the subject of the Email Blind Taste Test.

If I get at least ten, I'll post ten in a thread and we can have our test.  
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Murphy
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 4:44pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from mcornetto
Ok.  Anyone interested in the Blind Taste Test send (to my email address which can be found in my profile).

The image of a single page from a script.  You can usually do this on windows by hitting Alt/PrtScr while you have the pdf open to the page and it's the topmost window.  Then you can usually paste it into the email.  I don't know how to do this on a Mac. (One page per person please).  

Indicate whether you consider it professional or SS, who the author is and the name of the script it is from.

Please make the subject of the Email Blind Taste Test.

If I get at least ten, I'll post ten in a thread and we can have our test.  


Personally Mr C. I don't see how single page will work, We are then getting back to the idea that the differences are in writing style, format and anything else easily gleamed from a single page.

Much of what I am talking about is the differences in how a story is structured, how characters are developed, how the theme affects what characters say to each other etc.. These to me are the stand outs in pro scripts, not just a well written action line or a funny bit of dialogue.
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mcornetto
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 4:47pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Murphy


Personally Mr C. I don't see how single page will work, We are then getting back to the idea that the differences are in writing style, format and anything else easily gleamed from a single page.

Much of what I am talking about is the differences in how a story is structured, how characters are developed, how the theme affects what characters say to each other etc.. These to me are the stand outs in pro scripts, not just a well written action line or a funny bit of dialogue.


That's fine Murphy.  Then don't do it.

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Dreamscale
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 4:47pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Murphy
Dreamscale, I have made my point clear enough, if you cannot understand it then you obviously have a problem, not me. Why you insist on keep coming back with silly claims, taking my words out of context is a puzzle.

In the context of this thread, and Pia's question,  pro script is a script that is deemed good enough to be sold, or at least get mentioned on the black list. I am talking about specs here, primarily because this is what is important to me.

I have never, not once, suggested that a pro script only becomes a pro script when it is sold. My logic is clear on this, A spec will only get sold if it is a pro script. You keep getting that the wrong way round and there is a fundamental difference. If a SS script gets sold it does not suddenly become a pro script, my reasoning is that if an SS script gets sold it is because it already is a pro script.


Murph, who's the one who keeps taking things out of context?  Your quote here is a perfect example of my fundamental issue with what you continue to say.

You said on more than 1 occasion that there are 3 scripts on SS that could be "Pro scripts", which means if any other SS script were to sell, it would not be a Pro script, right?  But then when I asked this again and again, you came back and said that any script that sells and becomes an actual movie is considered a "Pro script".

You don't see the flaw in your reasoning there?  Who are you to say that no other scripts on SS have any chance of selling and being made into movies?  You can't say that with any certainty.  And when one of these scripts that you say has no chance of selling and isn't Pro level does sell, why all of a sudden would that change your opinion of it?

You continually seem to praise every Pro script out there, and that again is just insane.  There are SO MANY piss poor Pro scripts that have been made into piss poor movies that turn into complete financial disasters.  You understand that, right?

Let's get back to a horrendous Pro script that turned into a horrendous joke of a movie...88 Minutes.  It had the budget.  It had the star power.  It had the big Pro writer, the big Pro director, and international distribution.  And it was God awful on every level imaginable.

I don't care what the actual script looked like on paper, because it was a piss poor, stupid fucking idea that made zero sense and sucked the dried up teets of dead decayed goats.  That Pro script was not better than all but 3 SS scripts, and if you continue to say it is, you're a fucking idiot.
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dogglebe
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 4:52pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Murphy
What I get from this thread is that there are people who think they can already write scripts as good as the pros and it is only bad luck stopping them getting sold, and therefore they do not need to improve, therefore the theory of story structure does not apply to them.


I wouldn't call it bad luck.  Not having connections is something else. isn't a matter of luck; it's a matter of knocking on doors, doing whatever it takes to get people to look at your scripts.  I entered competitions.  I answered craigslist postings.  I sent out query letters.



Quoted from Murphy
Even if the script is overall pretty bad, you can still see the skill that was used to write it. In fact it often makes it easier to pinpoint where the scripts falls down if it has been written professionally.


There are plenty of movies that do not show any skill in the script department.  Adam Sandler comedies (using the word comedy loosely), the ScaryMovie franchise, the Police Academy, one through thirty.  These are movies that pile one tasteless joke after another.  There's no discernable story, no character development.  Nothing!  But, hey, you give the audience a fart joke and you're gold....



Quoted from Murphy
There are very few scripts here that I can say are written as well.

if you don't want to believe then fine, if you want to carry on deluding yourself then fine, I don't really care, But I fail to see how anybody can be successful at anything if they cannot at least acknowledge those who are and try and figure out why they are.


There are a few good scripts here.  You just have to look for them



Quoted from Murphy
And that really is my last word.


You lie.


Phil

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rendevous
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 4:56pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from dogglebe

You lie.


Phil




You hope. I cope. Soap, on a roap.

Bobe. Scope, elope!

R ox


Out Of Character - updated


New Used Car

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mcornetto
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 4:59pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from rendevous



You hope. I cope. Soap, on a roap.

Bobe. Scope, elope!

R ox


Definitely separated by transparent slime.  (you know I dig ya R )
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Murphy
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 5:07pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from mcornetto


That's fine Murphy.  Then don't do it.



Lol, that's fine, I won't.

It is nothing more than a pointless exercise that proves nothing and just feeds the fire of delusion.

I can see it now " that must be the pro script, he used "we see"."

If anyone ever wants to really look at scripts and discuss what makes them good then I I'll be around for that. Using a single a page serves no function whatsoever. You might as well judge good directors based on a single screen shot from one of their films.



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mcornetto
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 5:10pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Murphy


Lol, that's fine, I won't.

It is nothing more than a pointless exercise that proves nothing and just feeds the fire of delusion.

I can see it now " that must be the pro script, he used "we see"."

If anyone ever wants to really look at scripts and discuss what makes them good then I I'll be around for that. Using a single a page serves no function whatsoever. You might as well judge good directors based on a single screen shot from one of their films.





Many a producer, director, reader and writer that I've chatted with have all said they can tell from a single page.  
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rendevous
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 5:14pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from mcornetto


Many a producer, director, reader and writer that I've chatted with have all said they can tell from a single page.  


Thing is, if you're a pro, and I've met a few they can. They can also tell within a minute of talking to you. Which is why most of my extra work ended up on the cutting room floor.

I did understudy for a few famous types, er, understudy number three at best. Barstards always turned up! Like sucks. Where is my helmet?

R ox


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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 5:16pm Report to Moderator
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For those in the thread that are interested in trying to develop "Pro-like" writing, there's an interesting thread here:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=130396

About a dvx regular who sold his script for $300K.

His replies are all worth reading, but page 24 is particularly relevant to this discussion.

He reckons you should read at least 100 of the best pro screenplays and also suggests actually copying out by hand about 36 of them, thus ingraining the way they write into your own subconscious.

Because they'll be different authors, you won't just steal their style, but amalgamte them into your own, but will get used to using language in the way they do.

Interesting theory. Might be worth a try for someone.
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 5:17pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from mcornetto


Many a producer, director, reader and writer that I've chatted with have all said they can tell from a single page.  


If you get the scripts up, I'm going to test that myself.
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Murphy
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 5:23pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale

Pro script was not better than all but 3 SS scripts, and if you continue to say it is, you're a fucking idiot.


You are classy Jeff, I will give you that.

One day you will learn and understand what I am saying, For now though you obviously do not understand, so there is no point making the same point over and again.

Just realise there is a difference between a well written and yet bad film and a badly written script. I am not talking about story, as it the actual story, I am talking about how the story is told, how it is constructed.

You have demonstrated time and time again that you have no interest in the theory of storytelling, of dramatic writing and ultimately screenwriting. in your world it is all black and white, a film you like is well written and a film you dislike is not.


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rendevous
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 5:24pm Report to Moderator
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Time for a shameless plug. Tomorrow never comes. It did yesterday. Sorry, I was just ripping off Paul Calf, aka Alan Partridge aka Steve Coogan.

Mine will be up soon. I've had it read by a few types who tell me write Tomorrow Two Rendevous. I might. Once I see how the craic is here after a few scans.

Talent will out, so said Mercury in his heyday. Yeah, and luck, and contacts Freddie. We're not all as talented as you were. Wassat? Oh, it's me, playing Rick Rubin's version of We Will Rock You again. Better than that fucking musical in London. Fred woulda hated it. Sometimes.

RH xo


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dogglebe
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 5:33pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Murphy
...and I can honestly say that there is only 3 screenplays I have ever read by SS writers that would be good enough to considered as good as the worst of those.


What three scripts, if I may ask?


Phil

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Baltis.
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 5:42pm Report to Moderator
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I sold my script (Dog Pound) to a producer in Toronto for actual money back in May.  And not a bad sum, either.  More than I made doing gigs around Kansas City in 5 months time.  I sold another (Deliver Me Death) as well.  One has been in production, stalled, and is said to be picking back up this month.   I've been paid for both and signed contracts for both.  I no longer hold the rights to either.

I don't feel like an amateur or a pro.  I feel like a screenwriter who found Two different people who liked my work enough to pay for it.  I don't do screenwriting for a living and I don't have the desire to do so, either.  Not right now.   I do it as a hobby much of the year.

I have a script called (Coffin Canyon) that many people (pro's) have been interested in.  I've had offers for it and people tossing figures out for the web-domain.  The script is clean, fluid, and damn good by the standards of Kenny Mcfadden and Stephanie Rogers... Both of whom have critiqued it.  More than 10 pages too, by the way.  Both very costly, but you do get a lengthy call back.  Of course 9 years of polish can go a long ways, but what I want to stress here is I sold Two scripts I spent 4 weeks writing and One that I spent 3 days writing... Neither are a fraction as polished as Coffin Cayon is.  A script that I still haven't sold, yet spent lots of money on over the years for various services and what not.

What I'm saying -- Don't worry about what the "pro's" are doing.  Worry about what you're doing.  Worry about story.  Worry about originality.  Worry about connecting with the mind of a producer/Director/Actor who wants to give you a read.  They're the one's you're going to have to impress.  Not people on a message board.




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Murphy
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 5:44pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from mcornetto


Many a producer, director, reader and writer that I've chatted with have all said they can tell from a single page.  


As much as I hate to argue with you Mr C. And with all due respect, this is just bollox. I would have serious doubts about anyone who would say such a thing.

Things we can learn from a single page:

That a writer knows how to format a script
That a writer can write believable dialogue.
That a writer can write nice action sequences.

I cannot think of much more here.

Things we cannot, ever...totally impossible to learn from a single page:

That the characters are well rounded and developed well.
That the script has a theme than is echoed in certain key scenes.
That a character is saying something that is a key plot point and references a previous scene.
That the story is structured professionally.
That the story is actually any good and works in the context of the script.
The first 10 pages hook you into the story
And when the inciting incident appears you are prepared to go along for the ride.
That what character say is not sometimes what they mean.
You care about the characters and empathise with them.

I could go on all day.


This second list is for me the key indicators of whether a script I am reading is well written or not, how the action is actually written down on the page is totally irrelevant. Some of the best scripts I have read do not do anything more than simply describe what is on the screen while some scripts that appear to be original and have a voice can be amongst the worst.

These forums are still stuck with the idea that how the words are put onto the page is somehow relevant to how well a screenplay is written and I have to tell you that this is so far from the truth.

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Dreamscale
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 5:45pm Report to Moderator
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Murph, I apologize for the profanity.  I mean that.  I get worked up.  I get frustrated.  I am passionate about this stuff, believe it or not.

So, let just get this straight.  You're saying that 88 Minutes was a well written script that turned into a bad film? Is that what you're saying?  It is a Pro level quality script with well written characters, and a solid story that was well constructed and told?

No more beating around the bush, Murph.  Is this what you believe or not?
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James McClung
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 5:54pm Report to Moderator
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I gotta say. This thread has been fun. No kidding. No stupid religious/political arguments here. We have a genuine screenwriting debate going on here.

But I digress...

A blind taste test is completely pointless. Gonna agree with Murph on this one. Fucking bollocks! No one would've thought of it if this argument hadn't started and thus it stems from a negative place. People can always dispute the results and even if it does prove something, nobody's going to own up to being "proven" wrong. We're a stubborn bunch, after all. Even if that were the case, is anyone really gonna change up their approach to writing? Even their general opinion on the subject? Yeah, probably not.

Either way, whether or not reading pro scripts is a good exercise for writers, for the most part, I've only seen it have negative effects on prospective writers here. Aside from all the arguments that pop up, people get so caught up in reading screenwriting books and pro scripts that they end up not writing anything. A lot of people have said they're working their way towards their first screenplay. A lot of people have said they're not ready. That's not my call to make, even if it's true, but I respect that kind of humility.

But it's a catch 22. No one's ever going to feel prepared to write a screenplay if they already haven't written one and for good reason; you're first script's just not going to be up to snuff. In all probability, no, in all certainty, it'll be the worst script you write in your lifetime.

So just quit dicking around and pop your cherry already! If you wanna research and learn the craft, at least practice the craft while you're doing it. That's the only real way you're going to get better.

And I'm not talking about writing a bunch of low budget shorts for "calling cards." Anybody with a camera can shoot two guys chatting in one location. In fact, you might as well shoot it yourself if that's the case. What I'm talking about is features.

Seems more productive than another patented SS exercise that just makes everyone pissed off and resentful or shrug off even the most insignificant shred of value that comes from someone trying to prove someone else wrong.


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mcornetto
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 6:02pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Murphy


As much as I hate to argue with you Mr C. And with all due respect, this is just bollox. I would have serious doubts about anyone who would say such a thing.

Things we can learn from a single page:

That a writer knows how to format a script
That a writer can write believable dialogue.
That a writer can write nice action sequences.

I cannot think of much more here.

Things we cannot, ever...totally impossible to learn from a single page:

That the characters are well rounded and developed well.
That the script has a theme than is echoed in certain key scenes.
That a character is saying something that is a key plot point and references a previous scene.
That the story is structured professionally.
That the story is actually any good and works in the context of the script.
The first 10 pages hook you into the story
And when the inciting incident appears you are prepared to go along for the ride.
That what character say is not sometimes what they mean.
You care about the characters and empathise with them.

I could go on all day.


This second list is for me the key indicators of whether a script I am reading is well written or not, how the action is actually written down on the page is totally irrelevant. Some of the best scripts I have read do not do anything more than simply describe what is on the screen while some scripts that appear to be original and have a voice can be amongst the worst.

These forums are still stuck with the idea that how the words are put onto the page is somehow relevant to how well a screenplay is written and I have to tell you that this is so far from the truth.



So you think the blind taste test will fail?  That we'll pick wrongly.  We'll have to wait and see, won't we?  Unless, of course, you're too frightened to give it a go.
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rendevous
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 6:47pm Report to Moderator
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My final post for tonight. I'm sure some of you will be disappoited. And some delighted. Whatever, like I give a fuck.

Read the first page of Catcher In The Rye. Then read the first page of 1984. Or Macbeth. Or Whatever. That's how you decide in a bookshop if you spend your hard earned cash on it. You think Fincher ploughs through 114 pages by Nobody just because you wrote it?

Get a grip.

R


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Grandma Bear
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I never said I can tell from 1 page... I said about Frozen for example that the first 10 pages read like an SS script. It was much later in the story it got much better and held my attention and I wanted to know what would happen next.


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mcornetto
Posted: October 6th, 2010, 7:28pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from James McClung

A blind taste test is completely pointless. Gonna agree with Murph on this one. Fucking bollocks! No one would've thought of it if this argument hadn't started and thus it stems from a negative place. People can always dispute the results and even if it does prove something, nobody's going to own up to being "proven" wrong. We're a stubborn bunch, after all. Even if that were the case, is anyone really gonna change up their approach to writing? Even their general opinion on the subject? Yeah, probably not.

1. This isn't to prove anyone right or wrong.  It's merely to see what happens if we try it. I can't tell you how many times I've read or heard that professionals can tell a professional script from a single page.  And you can hear it too on SR, one edition that pops into my mind is the second Ron Osborne interview where he states this.  
2. Getting people to look critically at a script is never pointless, even if it's one page.
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Murphy
Posted: October 7th, 2010, 6:55pm Report to Moderator
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Carrying on from the conversation on the Blind Taste Test thread.

I think it comes down to context, it really does depend what your goals are. Talking purely as someone who is learning to write specs that will get read by the right people then I actually do not think a screenwriter is a filmmaker a such.

Our audience are not not sitting in a theatre watching a film, they are reading our written words on a page. And they will toss our spec into the reject pile unless they get engaged in our story early. Our audience are not filmmakers either, in fact we ourselves should and will know more about film than many of them.

The only chance that a filmmaker is ever going to read our script is after it has passed through the hands of readers, agents and various studio employees. When talking about a non solicited, spec script these are our audience. Of course, this is forgetting we are writing for a visual medium and yes we have to display some skill in writing for the screen. But this seems to take a backseat to good execution of story.

I use the black list as my guide, I think it is the best thing there is for this. I am sure most people know what the black list is but in a nutshell it is a list of the best unproduced scripts passed around Hollywood that year. In order to get on the black list at least five different people have to mention your script.

Many of these scripts are specs, many of those are by first time writers. In terms of writing the range is quality is HUGE. There are properly, expertly formatted scripts with great grammar and writing and there are scripts that suggest the writer has never read a "how to format a script" book. But they do all have one thing in common and that is that they are all well written screenplays, well constructed stories and engage the reader.

I think in terms of writing a spec this is the most important thing to concentrate on.

Of course when writing something on assignment, or producing your own work or even writing a short, there are differences, you are then writing films. But that is a totally different thing.    
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Murphy
Posted: October 7th, 2010, 7:48pm Report to Moderator
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Funnily enough over at Script Shadows there is a review today of a spec that has just sold for $1.5m. I am linking it here because Carson Reeves does talk about what made this script stand-out, why it might get passed by certain people and why sometimes scripts do not get picked up.

I thought it was an interesting review and does add somewhat to this debate.

http://scriptshadow.blogspot.com/2010/10/snow-white-and-huntsman.html



The script by the way is here, but not guaranteed to be here for long...


http://www.sendspace.com/file/dt5zev
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Dreamscale
Posted: October 7th, 2010, 7:57pm Report to Moderator
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That's a well written Pro script.

I won't even say anything about all the stuff I normally would, cause it's really well written.

I'm impressed, and I'd say the same whether he's a Pro or some new guy on SS.

Great example, Murph.  This in my mind, is a great example of a Pro script.  I like it.  I even saved it and will read it.  Thanks.

Peace...
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Dreamscale
Posted: October 7th, 2010, 8:51pm Report to Moderator
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And, I liked the reviewer's review.  Very interesting...but I totally agree.  One guy may not be into it, and the next may say, "How about $1.5 Million?".

You gotta believe, baby.  You gotta believe!
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stevie
Posted: October 7th, 2010, 8:58pm Report to Moderator
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Yeah, good points Jeff, and thanks to Murph for the heads up on it.

I've read the first few pages and admit it reads well. But whether the market is there, as the reviewer points out, well, i wonder...



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Mr. Blonde
Posted: October 7th, 2010, 9:18pm Report to Moderator
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I have to admit, I was the one who'd throw this in the "Pass" pile. It's something I can't explain but the writing style wasn't something I could bear reading as a feature. Maybe it was the over-description.

That's the thing, though. I'm a minimalist. Just tell me the necessary details and move on. If I want a picture painted for me, I'll go read a book.

Just me, though.


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Dreamscale
Posted: October 7th, 2010, 9:27pm Report to Moderator
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Blonde, I hear ya totally...BUT...this dude nailed the writing in a very unique, well done way.  He's a rock solid writer, and no way would I knock him...cause I can just tell.

Lots of stuff that usually wouldn't work in any way..but, damn, I think it works here, within the kind of script especially.

Now that's  a voice, ladies and gents!  Problem is, people will try to emulate it, and they'll fail miserably, which will lead me back to saying all the shit I always say.

Again, seriously, this is really good shit, Murph.  Glad you found and shared it.
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Shelton
Posted: October 7th, 2010, 9:41pm Report to Moderator
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I'm not going to go into the question that is the subject of this thread, but I will say that there are way too many variables involved when it comes to getting a script picked up, and they're not all related to just words on the page or how they're presented.

Story plays a factor, luck plays a factor, and who you know plays a factor.  How it's written plays a factor in some circles, but depending on what level you're working on it's not as much of a factor as you think.  As long as it doesn't look like it was written in equal parts shit and crayon, you're probably okay, and that statement holds true a pretty good ways up the ladder.


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"I think I did pretty well, considering I started out with nothing but a bunch of blank paper." - Steve Martin
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Murphy
Posted: October 7th, 2010, 10:02pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
Blonde, I hear ya totally...BUT...this dude nailed the writing in a very unique, well done way.  He's a rock solid writer, and no way would I knock him...cause I can just tell.

Lots of stuff that usually wouldn't work in any way..but, damn, I think it works here, within the kind of script especially.

Now that's  a voice, ladies and gents!  Problem is, people will try to emulate it, and they'll fail miserably, which will lead me back to saying all the shit I always say.

Again, seriously, this is really good shit, Murph.  Glad you found and shared it.


Dreamscale, I am glad you like it.

But, while not suggesting you are wrong, you do seem to have missed the point of why I posted this review and script.

I posted this review because in everything it talked about why this script worked he never once talked about how the words were written. And in fact, reading the first few pages this script goes against much of the conventional wisdom held round here as to what a well written script is. It is overly descriptive in places, lots of blocks of action and the use of the word "we" reaches epidemic proportions. But the review never mentions this once, nor should it, because it is irrelevant.

In the eyes of the reviewer this script worked because the story was structured well, the characters were well written and strong. All the relevant act breaks were hit and action was piled upon action until reaching a climax. In short, this was a professionally structured screenplay.

When I talk about a "well written screenplay" I am not talking about the writing, and in this review nor is the reviewer. He even goes on to compare it to similar amateur scripts and makes the point of saying that this script got all the edges in order before hitting the market when all the amateur scripts he reads are only 60/70% there at best. Again nothing to do with writing and everything to do with storytelling.

A few pages may tell you how someone writes, and therefore give you an indication of their skill level as a writer. Thus someone who writes like a pro is more likely to be a pro. But you are never going to be able to say whether a screenplay is well written unless you read the whole thing, because that is the only way you are ever going to know if it worked as a story. And you are only ever going to read the whole thing if the writer had enough skill to hook you in during the first 10 pages. And this is all about structure, character and premise and very little to do with formatting. (unless of course it is so badly written it is unreadable).
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Grandma Bear
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since my reading Frozen started this, I just watched it. As usual, the film is much worse than the script. The script did at least keep my attention, the film did not.

Also, did they try to keep it PG? All the horror elements were totally removed from the film.

Not trying to start a debate, just still saying the script had something even if it wasn't "great" and the film was watered down into nothing....  


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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: October 8th, 2010, 4:06am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Murphy
Funnily enough over at Script Shadows there is a review today of a spec that has just sold for $1.5m. I am linking it here because Carson Reeves does talk about what made this script stand-out, why it might get passed by certain people and why sometimes scripts do not get picked up.

I thought it was an interesting review and does add somewhat to this debate.

http://scriptshadow.blogspot.com/2010/10/snow-white-and-huntsman.html



The script by the way is here, but not guaranteed to be here for long...


http://www.sendspace.com/file/dt5zev


Interesting. Cheers for that.

Had a brief scan, it's basically just a direct adaptation of Snow White. He's pulled a fast one there, fair play to him.
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Yeaster
Posted: October 10th, 2010, 8:03pm Report to Moderator
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This topic was an interesting read. I know that, for myself, I have a ways to go before I reach "pro" level. But on the flipside, it wasn't until recently that I started to take writing seriously (2005), and I'm still very young, so I'm not in a hurry. I just want to learn all that I can, and practice as much as I can, to reach my full potential. Not to be arrogant, but I do feel that I have something -- it just needs some tuning.

I feel that my skills as a writer grow tremendously within each year, with each story I write, and with each piece of advice I'm given. I do feel that I will reach "pro level" soon at the rate I am going...perhaps within the next few years. Granted, I want to do the whole-nine-yards and direct each of my stories as well, but I still want them (my stories) to be the absolute best that they can be.


---
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Murphy
Posted: October 11th, 2010, 1:50am Report to Moderator
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I might as well use this thread for this post, it is kind of on topic...

I am a bit of a fan of Script Shadow, The blog of some guy called Carson Reeves (though it appears not to be his real name). He basically just reviews scripts (most of them unproduced but pro level), and I find him very knowledgable and he had got a great knack for it. I think he works within the industry in some capacity, it is a good site and worth checking out if you are interested, in his opinion at least, learning what makes good scripts good.

Anyway, to my point, I am also a fan of Christopher Nolan, and know I am not alone on this front. So thought I would mention that Script Shadow are having a Christopher Nolan week this week and everyday will be dissecting a Nolan film. Could be interesting, first up is The Dark Knight...

http://scriptshadow.blogspot.com/
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rendevous
Posted: October 11th, 2010, 2:39am Report to Moderator
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Ow, me head. Fecking cooking vodka. Gonna go and buy ten bottles of Jameson later.

What separates SS writers from the pros?

Er, they argue more?

Love and dishes,

R ox


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Delboy
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A script is only as bad as you see it. I thought Avatar was an average script but throw on a fancy light show and there you go, money in the bank.

"its not what you know but who you know"

I think that what seperates the ss writers is they lack the conections to the big boys in order to get their script produced. Most pro's will know someone, even a friend of a friend, who'll get their script made even if it's badly written.
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VeselinStoqnov
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I'm not gonna lie. I'm a teenager. I visit this site regularly and see about script news and yesterday I registered here, so. I want to become a screenwriter and when I search here the new unproduced list the first thing I look is the title and the plot. If the plot doesn't make me read the script, it's not worth it. Second thing I look are the characters. If they are not interesting and they not grab me, I stop reading. I suppose that pro writers know how to use characters and create interesting headlines and plots.
This is my opinion.
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rendevous
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What separates SS writers from the pros?

Is it mountains of cash?

Quote=VS]I'm not gonna lie. I'm a teenager.[/quote]

Oooh, I wouldn't wanna be a teenager again. It's bad enough being an adult. What you say sounds fair enough.

And you're right.

If you wanna be a screenwriter you're in the right place. Just bear in mind some people, like me and Jwent tend to be drunk on here. Such is life. Don't believe all the hype. Good start, fella. Bulgaria is an ace place. I'm going back there one day.

Keep it cooking.

R xo


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Quoted from Murphy
Funnily enough over at Script Shadows there is a review today of a spec that has just sold for $1.5m. I am linking it here because Carson Reeves does talk about what made this script stand-out, why it might get passed by certain people and why sometimes scripts do not get picked up.

I thought it was an interesting review and does add somewhat to this debate.

http://scriptshadow.blogspot.com/2010/10/snow-white-and-huntsman.html



The script by the way is here, but not guaranteed to be here for long...


http://www.sendspace.com/file/dt5zev


Hey Murph, thanks for posting this link.
I'm a little late to the party, but I read the script today.
I'm much more impressed with the structure than the story here.
The writer clearly took the time to build arcs for his main characters.
There's nothing remarkable here, but it all works together.
It has that confident flow that I think many amateur scripts lack.

I found it fascinating to see the write punctuate his beat with underlining.
He practically spells it all out for the reader, you can practically hear the music swells.
I guess that's part of his way of standing out from the herd? Thoughts?
Perhaps finding an engaging way of holding the reader's hand helps?
At times, it was cloistering for me, but others may enjoy that kind of telegraphing.

I feel the story suffers from trying to please every marketing quadrant, sans toddlers.
For me, that tone rarely pleases, but it does intensify marketability.
And in this case, it worked, so good on him.
Anyone else here have thoughts on the writer's style?

Regards,
E.D.


LATEST NEWS

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is producing a short based on my new feature!

A list of my scripts can be found here.
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Death Monkey
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Whoa, whoa. I decided to visit Simply Scripts for the first time in close to a year, and I find this thread about something I've been wondering about for years. And now feel closer to answering.

(Also, hi everyone that remembers me!)

A quick recap: I've in the last two years been working with a director and had two funded shorts produced (€10,000 and €25,000 budgets respectively) one of which has played festivals worldwide (Tribeca, Newport Beach, Rushes Soho, Edinburgh, Galway etc.) while the other is in post as we speak. I have met and talked to a lot of other people in the industry (directors, producers, screenwriters), and read a lot of scripts, and as a result grown immensely as a writer.

So I thought I'd share some of the things I've learned, and which to me, have proven extremely helpful.

Now, I'm not a pro (yet). I don't make money off screenwriting. But I am in a place where it's looking like screenwriting is gonna be something I'm gonna do full-time and as a carreer. So I need to write pro-scripts.

And looking back at my own work that I wrote while at SS and what I'm writing now, I know one thing for sure. What separates amateur and pro-scripts isn't just luck. It's not just connections. It's understanding how to tell a story. An interesting story.

What Murphy said in this thread is quite true. 99% of characters in amateur scripts fail to be interesting or feel like real people. When you read the dialogue you don't feel like you're listening to an actual person speak. You're listening to the writer put words in the mouth of his character. For whatever reason. Maybe the plot needs it. Maybe there's a joke you wanna tell (but would the character?) etc.

But it's more than that. The epiphany for me was STRUCTURE. I'm not just talking about hitting the right plot-points. Most of us have had the three act structure beaten into our brains with a wooden bat. The revelation for me was how integral character is to structure.

Because structure is nothing without two things: Character Arcs and Theme.

You cannot write a good script without a theme. A script without a theme, and a pervasive, strong theme at that, is like a person without a soul or personality.

Before you start writing you need to know what your theme is, and you need to know how your character arc is gonna carry that theme.

Lemme give an example:

One of the movies I enjoyed most last year was Zombieland. Zombieland is a movie about taking chances. It's a movie about how some things are worth playing fast and loose for. In other words: it's a movie about conquering your fears.

So how does the movie put this, on its own, pretty bland theme to work?

Meet Columbus. A kid with so many fears that he could hardly function before the world ended. He's not just skittish. He's phobic. What's he afraid of? Well most things. as the VO tells us early on page 6:


Quoted Text

COLUMBUS
...I'm considering opening that bathroom door. Notice what a huge wuss I am. Seriously I don't have the guts God gave one of those trembly toy poodles, the kind that pees on eye contact. But I've survived so far 'cause I play it safe. Always by the rules. MY rules.

As Columbus navigates his way through the following action scene, he follows ALL FOUR RULES. And what he just said is the truth...we aren't watching a hero here...

...we're watching a COWARD.


Hello theme. Hello character who embodies the theme. Hello character arc.

So what we know through, not only the VO, but from the opening scene of Columbus' insistence on following rules is the following:

Columbus is a coward who has survived thus far BECAUSE he's a coward.

However, we also notice he's ALONE.

What happens in the movie of course is that Columbus meets other people, including a girl he falls in love with. Suddenly his rules are challenged. Is it better to play it safe and be a coward, if it means always being alone?

Columbus' character arc is then: "Columbus learns to overcome his fears and realize that some things are worth breaking the rules for. Even if it could get you killed."

Notice how that arc is intrinsically tied in with the theme. But not only that, it takes one of his specific fears, GIRLS, and makes that the stake. Columbus isn't just overcoming his fears because it's gonna make him a better person, he's doing it because it's gonna get him the girl.

That's a stake the audience will get behind and cheer for. And the reason it works is because it's connected at the hip to the theme and his arc.

That kind of synergy is essential in a Hollywood script.

Now of course this alone doesn't make a script up to snuff. You need to be able to write interesting character who can embody your theme. I'm not sure if this can be taught unfortunately. It can be honed, but I think it's a matter of "either you have it or you don't."

There's a lot more that separates the pros from the amateurs of course, but I will say that if you go on Script Shadow and you read any one of the top 25 scripts, and you can't tell the difference between that and the VAST majority of scripts on this site and others, I think you're kidding yourself.

At least that's what I've come to believe.

If anyone is interested in how you write good characters and good dialogue that's not flashy and trying too hard, check out THE F WORD: http://www.mediafire.com/?qn1wiy2zjml

It's a Canadian indie script (being produced with Casey Affleck and Mary Elizabeth Winstead though...) and as such does not work with the same broad brushstrokes as something like Zombieland, but it works because of it's central two characters are SO well-written and interesting. They are REAL. We care about them, and we care about whether or not they end up together.

Another script I would recommend for dialogue, (but for different reasons) would be 30 Minutes Or Less, which is incidentally being directed by Reuben Fleischer who did Zombieland: http://scriptshadow.blogspot.com/2009/12/30-minutes-or-less.html


Okay, hope any of this is useful to anyone. I have to get back to my exams now.

Great discussion!


"The Flux capacitor. It's what makes time travel possible."

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Quoted from Grandma Bear
Anyway, this was a great post and I agree 100%. We may not always be able to tell a pro script from an amateur one by reading one page, but it definitely shows when you read the whole script.


Or see the whole movie, right?

WRONG!!!!!!

The vast majority of "Pro Scripts" that get turned into movies, are piss poor, Everyone thinks characters have to be this, story has to be that, and the theme has to be whatever.

INCORRECT!!!!!!

Zombieland was awful...just terrible.  The whole thing was a frickin' joke, and IMO, there's absolutely no way anyone can or should point to these cartoon characters and try to make a point about anything.

Oh, welcome back Death Monkey!


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Zombieland rocked!

You suck!


Phil (End of discussion)
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bert
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Quoted from Dreamscale
The vast majority of "Pro Scripts" the get turned into movies, are piss poor...


The "vast majority"?  This just isn't true, Jeff.  How can you even say that?




Hey, it's my tiny, little IMDb!
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Dreamscale
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I can easily say that the vast majority of movies are not good...at all.

You can blame that on Producers, Directors, stars, or whatever, but most of the time, it comes down to the source material, which is the "Pro Script".

Zombieland was in the right place at the right time, and it benefited greatly from fantastic marketing and a well thought out cast.
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Death Monkey
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Quoted from Dreamscale


Or see the whole movie, right?

WRONG!!!!!!

The vast majority of "Pro Scripts" that get turned into movies, are piss poor, Everyone thinks characters have to be this, story has to be that, and the theme has to be whatever.

INCORRECT!!!!!!

Zombieland was awful...just terrible.  The whole thing was a frickin' joke, and IMO, there's absolutely no way anyone can or should point to these cartoon characters and try to make a point about anything.

Oh, welcome back Death Monkey!



Well look, to a certain extent things are a matter of taste. I recognize that. If you didn't like Zombieland, that's perfectly fine.

But what is indisputable is the fact that it's a movie that has crafted its theme, character arcs and plot in way that compliments each other to form a WHOLE. That means when the movie is over you know what it was about. You know what the hero wants, what stands in his way (internally and externally) and what's at stake if he fails.

And that' one of the things that separates the pros from the amateurs.

The movie was pretty much universally lauded, both critically and box-office wise, and I think it's one of the best examples out there of a well-written Hollywood entertainment in the last few years. So it certainly works for most people.

I think the problem many screenwriters have is that they think that the only thing that separates them from the big league is a matter of luck. Well you know, if your script is as good as the pros, stick in a a few major competition and it's gonna win. If the script is good enough, it will get noticed.

If it doesn't get noticed, maybe there's a reason for it.

Then again maybe your idea of quality writing is just categorically different from anyone in the industry. I'm sure that's a possibility. There are other opinions available out there. If for instance you're into art movies, you will find that you don't need to worry about any of what I just said.



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Death Monkey
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Quoted from Grandma Bear
Welcome back and congrats on on The Pool!

As usual your comments are very good, informative, intelligent and so on. There are a few people like that here...I'm not one of them.  

Anyway, this was a great post and I agree 100%. We may not always be able to tell a pro script from an amateur one by reading one page, but it definitely shows when you read the whole script.

Welcome back and hope you stick around.

Pia  


Thanks a lot, Pia

I'm not sure I am back. I try to stay away from message boards as I've found I easily get addicted to, and drawn into discussions, so I've gone cold turkey for the past year from all message boards. But I just had an urge to check out the old board and see what was happening...

And this is a great topic for discussion. Because if your attitude is that there is no difference between the amateurs and the pros, then that kind of exonerates you and puts the blame on "the crooked, nepotistic, stupid, greedy" industry, you know? It's not that YOU'RE a bad writer. It's that THEY don't know what good writing is!

I recently watched BEST WORST MOVIE about TROLL 2 and was shocked to see that so many people involved in it on the production side, actually thought they had made a great movie. The director, the screenwriter, some of the actors.

Delusion is a dangerous thing. And it's rampant in this industry. And you will never succeed if you can't look at your own work without bias. Be your own toughest critic.


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I use to think differently -- But now... Now I know the only thing that separates us lot from the pro's is the wonderful teachings of Tony Ramirez from Tampa Florida.
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It's been a while since I've been on the boards (quietly working on my craft, and nearly finished with a latest draft of my tv pilot).

But I saw this thread and started reading.  There are a lot of creative industries with the same problems you hear about here.  When I was getting a masters in polisci, most would-be political employers flat out told me they weren't interested until I graduated.  They then denigrated my day job as "volunteering" and thought I wasn't experienced enough for an entry-level receptionist type job.

For a different example, I also read recently about how one actor owed much of his career to being a childhood friend of Aaron Sorkin.  Not so much because he wasn't talented (he is), but because it gave him an even more successful contact with which to find work.

In many ways, no matter how talented you think you are, if you don't know the right people to give you a fair hearing, it's going to be very difficult to break out.

I've seen a lot of movies recently that suck.  It's gotten so bad, my roommate and I have adopted a "halfway-and-out" philosophy on movie rentals.  I had to do that recently with Get Smart, a spy-comedy I though I might like because of the Chuck series, but the comedy was dull and boring, Steve Carell really can't act, and they didn't really make us care much about the CONTROL/CHAOS fight.  (Although Dwayne Johnson and Ann Hathaway did good work on the flick).  I felt as disappointed by the Percy Jackson and Twilight adaptations, although suffered through them for genre-specific sequences that were good.

Anyway, point is, Hollywood has its own gradations of suck, mediocre, and success, just as we amateurs do.  There is bound to be some overlap.  And we generally don't benefit from writing full time, getting help on rewrites, or even working with a partner (a recommendation for serious screenwriters, supposedly).

It'll be interesting to see if any of us can rise above the mediocrity and find a way to bust through the glass wall separating us from Hollywood.
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Death Monkey
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Quoted from kendg8r
It's been a while since I've been on the boards (quietly working on my craft, and nearly finished with a latest draft of my tv pilot).

But I saw this thread and started reading.  There are a lot of creative industries with the same problems you hear about here.  When I was getting a masters in polisci, most would-be political employers flat out told me they weren't interested until I graduated.  They then denigrated my day job as "volunteering" and thought I wasn't experienced enough for an entry-level receptionist type job.

For a different example, I also read recently about how one actor owed much of his career to being a childhood friend of Aaron Sorkin.  Not so much because he wasn't talented (he is), but because it gave him an even more successful contact with which to find work.

In many ways, no matter how talented you think you are, if you don't know the right people to give you a fair hearing, it's going to be very difficult to break out.

I've seen a lot of movies recently that suck.  It's gotten so bad, my roommate and I have adopted a "halfway-and-out" philosophy on movie rentals.  I had to do that recently with Get Smart, a spy-comedy I though I might like because of the Chuck series, but the comedy was dull and boring, Steve Carell really can't act, and they didn't really make us care much about the CONTROL/CHAOS fight.  (Although Dwayne Johnson and Ann Hathaway did good work on the flick).  I felt as disappointed by the Percy Jackson and Twilight adaptations, although suffered through them for genre-specific sequences that were good.

Anyway, point is, Hollywood has its own gradations of suck, mediocre, and success, just as we amateurs do.  There is bound to be some overlap.  And we generally don't benefit from writing full time, getting help on rewrites, or even working with a partner (a recommendation for serious screenwriters, supposedly).

It'll be interesting to see if any of us can rise above the mediocrity and find a way to bust through the glass wall separating us from Hollywood.


THere is some truth in that. However a few points:

1) Acting is different from screenwriting. In screenwriting you have a product, a commodity, that can circulate to others without you ever being there. It can be copied, digitalized and distributed to millions at the same time. Acting is a performance, and you need to audition yourself to the right people.

2) Of course Hollywood movies suck. A lot of them anyway. But my point is that they suck in a different way than amateur scripts suck. Think of a bad Hollywood movie as a a bad band. Personally I think Celine Dion sucks. I would never buy any of her music. But she hits the notes, her songs have structure (albeit predictable), and the musicians on her album can play instruments. Celine Dion is a crappy Hollywood script.

Then there's the guy at the local pub who sings kareoke Led Zeppelin, but he can't hit the notes. He has aspiration to do something beyond the cookie-cutter mediocre crap of Celine Dion, but he lacks the basic ability to sing. He can't really play the instruments. This is a crappy amateur script.

Forgive the crude metaphor, but I think it's pretty apt.



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No, DM, that's a poor metaphor...really poor.

You may not like Celine Dion, but she's a fantastic singer and has sold Bigillions of records worldwide.

A better metaphor would involve a good singer, singing in a bar for $50/night, wondering why he can't "make it", because he knows he has talent.

Shows like American Idol and America Has talent show that everyday "nobodies" actually can possess talent, and  can actually become bigger stars than the ones we think are untouchable.
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No, your metaphor is quite apt.  I just think there's a lot of hobbyist karaoke singers who could do better than Celine Dion, but we never hear about them because they don't push themselves to get noticed, or just don't know how to get their demo tape into the right hands.

There are some in Hollywood who shouldn't be getting as much work as they are, and there are plenty of amateurs not getting a fair shake at doing better.

Even the widening array of contests aren't helping as much as they could, for they're starting to fill up with lower-ranking Hollywood staffers trying to end their internships or PA jobs and move into a career.  Which is all fine and dandy, but they already have something the rest of us don't - contacts in the industry - which is all the contests can offer long-term anyway.
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Quoted from Dreamscale
Shows like American Idol and America Has talent show that everyday "nobodies" actually can possess talent, and  can actually become bigger stars than the ones we think are untouchable.


Yeah, too bad there's no show out there like America Can Write TV.  (Or did I speak too soon?)

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Death Monkey
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Quoted from Dreamscale
No, DM, that's a poor metaphor...really poor.

You may not like Celine Dion, but she's a fantastic singer and has sold Bigillions of records worldwide.

A better metaphor would involve a good singer, singing in a bar for $50/night, wondering why he can't "make it", because he knows he has talent.

Shows like American Idol and America Has talent show that everyday "nobodies" actually can possess talent, and  can actually become bigger stars than the ones we think are untouchable.


But that's kind of my point. You may not like Zombieland. But it's written by someone who knows the craft, and has earned over a hundred million dollars.

I think the problem is maybe the "good singer" in the bar...isn't. But he thinks he is.

Again, there are screenwriting competitions. It may not be the coverage of American Idol, but if you put in a stellar script. It WILL take you places. Inktip is great too.


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Quoted from kendg8r
No, your metaphor is quite apt.  I just think there's a lot of hobbyist karaoke singers who could do better than Celine Dion, but we never hear about them because they don't push themselves to get noticed, or just don't know how to get their demo tape into the right hands.

There are some in Hollywood who shouldn't be getting as much work as they are, and there are plenty of amateurs not getting a fair shake at doing better.

Even the widening array of contests aren't helping as much as they could, for they're starting to fill up with lower-ranking Hollywood staffers trying to end their internships or PA jobs and move into a career.  Which is all fine and dandy, but they already have something the rest of us don't - contacts in the industry - which is all the contests can offer long-term anyway.


Absolutely. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying that anyone who sings Kareoke is necessarily a lesser singer than Celine. I was simply drawing a comparison between someone who knows the craft, but doesn't put it to use in a way that pleases me, and then someone who doesn't, but tries for something more interesting. Both fail to me, but for different reasons.

As for contests, they also serve the purpose of finding collaborators. That's how I met the director I'm now working with. So we got a short film done, which we then got into festivals, and got contacts and a calling card to secure funding for our second short. Then that's gonna do the festival circuit, and we're gonna get more contacts, and so on. and you meet people who will ask you if you have scripts they can read.

I'm not saying that inktip or competitions takes you straight into the studio boardroom. But it takes you some of the way.


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'American Writer' will never happen.  We came close with 'On The Lot,' but that show sucked because of judges who couldn't stop talking.


Phil
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Dreamscale
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DM, here's the deal, and point I've been trying to make for years....

You say that Zombieland was written by someone who knows the craft...sure,  maybe.  It was written by 2 guys who seem to collaborate fairly often but really haven't written much else that stands out, unless you want to count Cruel Intentions 3 as stellar, original material.

If you want to say that the success of Zombieland was based on these 2 writers and their script, that's great.  They are Pro writers, and if you think they put together a real Pro effort here. I have no problem with that.

But what about all the Pro writers who put together abysmal scripts...like Troll 2, for example.  If you check out these "writers" on IMDB, you'll see that they are definitely "Pros" and have written numerous Pro scripts...that all most likely really SUCK.

These 2 examples are on 2 ends of the spectrum, obviously, but there are so many Pro writers and scripts that fall somewhere in between major success and ultimate failure.

The point I'm skirting around is that Pro writers can write great scripts, good scripts, decent scripts, bad scripts, and piss fucking poor scripts...just like non Pro writers.

This fact is what has me laughing about all the little tests that have been attempted in here with threads asking if the 1 page excerpt is Pro or non Pro.  It doesn't matter...if it's well written, then it's good.  If it's poorly written, then it sucks.

Pros can and do write shit.  Non Pros can and do write shit.

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Someone mentioned earlier about people working on Troll 2 thought they were making a good movie; I see this happening in the music business for the last 15 years.

How can any of the people producing the garbage that passes for most music these days, think that what they are bringing out is actually any good? It makes me laugh and throw up!  Or is it because mthe standards of my favorite music are set so high?
I  reckon that all the best ever songs have already been written long ago and there will never be any more classic stuff.

But then it all comes back to the avergae dopey consumer demand factor, doesn't it? Same as movies.

All just MHO

stevie



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Quoted from Dreamscale
...like Troll 2, for example.  If you check out these "writers" on IMDB, you'll see that they are definitely "Pros" and have written numerous Pro scripts...that all most likely really SUCK.

The point I'm skirting around is that Pro writers can write great scripts, good scripts, decent scripts, bad scripts, and piss fucking poor scripts...just like non Pro writers.

This fact is what has me laughing about all the little tests that have been attempted in here with threads asking if the 1 page excerpt is Pro or non Pro.  It doesn't matter...if it's well written, then it's good.  If it's poorly written, then it sucks.

Pros can and do write shit.  Non Pros can and do write shit.



Jeff, you constantly fail to understand the difference between a bad film or a bad scipt on a critical / commercial level and a well written script, they are not mutually exclusive. A well written script can be a bad script critically, and vice versa.  

I have read plenty of scripts that I thought were crap, but still concede are well written. Until you understand what exactly people mean by a well written script you will never get it.

It is something you will never get from a single page, it is impossible to tell from a single page. The fundamental aspects of a well written scripts are great characters, great characters, great characters, good plot, great characters, structure and great characters.

There are many pro writers who write what I would consider crap films and yet are considered good writers in the industry and are constantly being turned to, and paid lots of money to do uncredited re-writes on scripts. This is because they know how to write a script, good or bad, they know how to write one. That separates them from the many thousands of other wannabe's filling Internet forums with bad scripts.
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Death Monkey
Posted: November 30th, 2010, 5:38pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale

The point I'm skirting around is that Pro writers can write great scripts, good scripts, decent scripts, bad scripts, and piss fucking poor scripts...just like non Pro writers.

This fact is what has me laughing about all the little tests that have been attempted in here with threads asking if the 1 page excerpt is Pro or non Pro.  It doesn't matter...if it's well written, then it's good.  If it's poorly written, then it sucks.

Pros can and do write shit.  Non Pros can and do write shit.


My point is it's different shit. It's like comparing a shitty Citroen CV to a box-car. It's shit on two different levels. One has grasped the rudimentary way to build a car, and just fucked up the execution. The other...isn't really a car yet.

I'll defer to Murphy's post above. He's pretty much said what needs to be said regarding this.



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Dreamscale
Posted: November 30th, 2010, 5:53pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Murphy
Jeff, you constantly fail to understand the difference between a bad film or a bad scipt on a critical / commercial level and a well written script, they are not mutually exclusive. A well written script can be a bad script critically, and vice versa.


Am I failing to understand this, or are you?

The arguments here (for the most part) are saying that a Pro writer writes better than a non Pro writer.  They also say that the major differences have to do with character and story.

Yet, every time I (or someone else) brings up a Pro script (and/or movie) that obviously is terrible in every way, I'm told that I don't understand or get it.

How can this be?

DM, you say it's shit on a different level, and you're right for the most part.  But what about the non Pro scripts or writers that don't suck and aren't shit?  Are they not better than the Pro scripts and writers that do suck and are shit?

I just completely fail to see what the infatuation is with Pro writers and this really weird ideology that their shit doesn't stink, and they can do no wrong.

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Murphy
Posted: November 30th, 2010, 6:13pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale


Yet, every time I (or someone else) brings up a Pro script (and/or movie) that obviously is terrible in every way, I'm told that I don't understand or get it.




Firstly, there are always going to be exptions to a rule. These need to be ignored, as we a taking a more general view of the differences between "pro" scripts and SS scripts.

Secondly, check your definition of "pro", I am not neccesarily talking about whether it has sold or not. There are a couple of scripts here on SS that I woulda consider pro level and yet not sold.

Thirdly, how many screenplays do you read? seriously, I am talking about spec scripts that are considered pro level, be they unproduced or not, bought or not. Once you read a hundred or so you will begin to see what a huge difference there is.

Most scripts that are sold never get produced, there are loads of them out there, all well written scripts but with something holding them back, usually commercial implications. But they all sold for a reason, the writers know how to write a script and therefore there is a good chance they will write another one that actually will get produced or more likely they can be added to to the list of people who are paid to write scripts on assignment.

It is nothing to do with having a good idea and getting lucky, it is the ability to demonstrate a clear understanding of how a good story is constructed and written. This is still rare when you consider how many scripts are written a year from people all over the world.

My biggest problem with this debate is the fact that so many people here seem quite happy to belittle the role of the talented screenwriter. It is weird. It is something that most of us want to aspire to be, to work hard and become good at this game. Why on Earth would anyone want to bring it all down to luck or suggest that there is no great skill to learn?

It's the same mentality as football fans watching a game and thinking they could do better if only they were allowed on the pitch. The guys that actually made in onto the pitch realised early on that it would take a lot of hard work to get there so they did just that.

It may seem that there is little separating great writers from average writers, just a few words here and a plot point there, but that final 5% is the biggest gulf of all, and the vast majority of people will never cross it. Again, it is exactly the same in all walks of life. Screenwriting is no different from being an architect, a lawyer, a salesman or a shop worker. To get to the top takes hard work and means learning skills most don't even realise are there to be learned. And you can always spot the losers because they are the ones complaining that John Smith only got to be Manager because he plays golf with the CEO.
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Death Monkey
Posted: November 30th, 2010, 6:20pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale


Yet, every time I (or someone else) brings up a Pro script (and/or movie) that obviously is terrible in every way, I'm told that I don't understand or get it.

How can this be?


Well, I guess what you're failing to see is that it's not terrible in every way. The way it's not terrible is that it knows structure, it knows arcs and theme (even if they are sucky). It knows how long to stay in a scene and it knows not let characters go off on tangents. etc. It knows set-ups and pay-offs. It knows reversals. Again the story might suck, the characters bland, but it how to fundamentally arrange and present a story.

And that's a huge difference, that's there even in crappy movies written by pro-writers.


Quoted Text
DM, you say it's shit on a different level, and you're right for the most part.  But what about the non Pro scripts or writers that don't suck and aren't shit?  Are they not better than the Pro scripts and writers that do suck and are shit?

I just completely fail to see what the infatuation is with Pro writers and this really weird ideology that their shit doesn't stink, and they can do no wrong.



The non pro writers whose scripts aren't bad have a good chance of becoming pro writers. Mind you, I'm not talking about two different races, or casts, and that if you're an amateur you will one forever. But 99% of amateur scripts on this site and others don't have what it takes to get attention. Because it lacks the aforementioned qualities I listed above.

Did you check out the script I linked to? The F Word? I'd be curious if you can tell a difference between that and SS scripts...





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Dreamscale
Posted: November 30th, 2010, 6:52pm Report to Moderator
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Murph, we agree on something finally!  You are correct…there are always exceptions to every rule.  They should not be ignored though, because they work in both ways…as in both sides of the discussion.

Definition of a Pro writer is one that has sold his/her scripts for money…or really, one who makes a living by writing scripts.  You are far from the one to judge what scripts or writers are Pro level.

I definitely don’t read as many Pro scripts as you do…that’s for sure.  But I bet ya I watch a hell of a lot more movies than you do.  This “difference” you keep referring to must not actually be what you continue to say the difference is, though.  The difference must be in the actual choice of presentation in writing.   If it was actually great characters and story, then every movie would include these, and the vast majority does not.

And this is the BIG problem, IMO. People get all worked up by what they perceive to be Pro writing.  They try their damdest to emulate it…to copy it…to make their writing look just like the Pro’s writing.  Same deal with the scripts that are being purchased.  They’re not being purchased because of how interesting, entertaining, and visual they will be onscreen. They’re being purchased because they “look” a certain way…a certain cool, hip, popular way.

Very true about the vast majority of scripts being purchased but not produced or turned into movies.  Why?  Because they weren’t solid scripts to start off with, and over time, the powers that be finally understood the error of their ways in paying good money for something that will never see the light of day.

It is completely about having a great idea and getting lucky.  Even Pro writers get lucky every day.  Pro athletes get lucky.  Pro entertainers get lucky.   Anyone and everyone can get lucky…or unlucky.

I for one, am not belittling Pro screenwriters one bit.  I’m merely pointing out all that glitters is not gold.  No one is 100% successful all the time.  Perfection is almost impossible to obtain.

Professional athletes are paid huge amounts of money to succeed.  If they can’t or don’t, they will no longer be paid those huge amounts of money, and won’t be Pros any longer.  It’s a much different world than screenwriting.

And finally, if you don’t think luck plays into someone either getting a big promotion or not getting it, you’re dumber than I thought you were.  It often comes down to looks and other factors that we don’t need to go into here.

The world is not a fair place.  Didn’t your parents teach you that long ago?
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Murphy
Posted: November 30th, 2010, 7:13pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
I definitely don’t read as many Pro scripts as you do…that’s for sure.  But I bet ya I watch a hell of a lot more movies than you do


I have to go, maybe I will respond to some of your other points later, much I disagree with, as always.

But this makes me laugh, how the he'll can you know how many movies I watch? What a ridiculous assumption to make.

I average around 6-10 movies a week, depending on what I have planned, if I am out all weekend or not.

And besides, I have seen your favourite movies. Quality trumps quantity all the time.
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Dreamscale
Posted: November 30th, 2010, 7:23pm Report to Moderator
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And what a ridiculous assumption you made in asking how many Pro-level scripts I read.  At least I have no problem in saying I doubt I read nearly as many as you do.

And there you go again...Murphy the all knowing, always correct, shit don't stink A-Hole.  Because my favorite movies aren't your favorite movies, means that what you like is better for some reason?

We're talking about Pro writers. Pro writers write all different kinds of Pro scripts.  At no time have we been talking about the cream of the crop in terms of movies or scripts, have we?

We're talking about what separates Pro writers from SS writers...simple as that.  many Pro writers make a living writing what most would call Grade Z scripts, which get turned into Grade Z movies.  Yet, for some unknown reason, you don't think that writer could be an SS writer.

I don't get it.
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Murphy
Posted: November 30th, 2010, 9:29pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale


I don't get it.


I know.

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Dreamscale
Posted: November 30th, 2010, 10:03pm Report to Moderator
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Well then...there you go, Murph.  Well said, mate.

I was actually going to apologize to you, as I didn't realize you watched that many movies.  Damn...that is a good amount, and I can't say I watch a Hell of alot more than you...only a few more here and there.

We just don't see eye to eye, and that's cool.  I understand.
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Murphy
Posted: November 30th, 2010, 10:15pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
Well then...there you go, Murph.  Well said, mate.

I was actually going to apologize to you, as I didn't realize you watched that many movies.  Damn...that is a good amount, and I can't say I watch a Hell of alot more than you...only a few more here and there.

We just don't see eye to eye, and that's cool.  I understand.


Lol, we never did and we probably never will.

Most of the time I am just arguing with you for the sake of it, it's fun, and an outlet! You are alright really. I have enough respect for you.

Remember, good writers can write bad films, and doesn't mean the script is bad either. This where it comes down to being a critical review of a script. Just like our choice of films it is totally subjective. You have the right to think a film is great even if I think it is shit, nobody is wrong and nobody is right, despite the fact that I think you're wrong,

But when talking about a well written script I am trying to get away from this critical aspect of it, there are certain things that a well written script has that are not subjective, that can be pinpointed. It is these elements that can be seen in pro scripts that are just not there in amateur scripts, regardless of whether it is an Oscar contender or a Michael Bay film.
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