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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    General Boards    Questions or Comments  ›  Multiple protagS?
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  Author    Multiple protagS?  (currently 3643 views)
Reef Dreamer
Posted: August 27th, 2012, 9:41am Report to Moderator
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Hi folks,

Thanks for all that.

Yup, made my mind up. Whilst I will have several protag, a gang of friends, there will be a lead story, with character arc and a need for the underlying theme to be related to that arc. The others may change in some degree, just not sure how much etc

I am sure that Tarantino and others can pull off a story without lead, but for now I will stick to a bit more traditional.


My scripts  HERE

The Elevator Most Belonging To Alice - Semi Final Bluecat, Runner Up Nashville
Inner Journey - Page Awards Finalist - Bluecat semi final
Grieving Spell - winner - London Film Awards.  Third - Honolulu
Ultimate Weapon - Fresh Voices - second place
IMDb link... http://www.imdb.com/name/nm7062725/?ref_=tt_ov_wr
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leitskev
Posted: August 27th, 2012, 10:00am Report to Moderator
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Sounds like a good, practical decision, Bill. And don't forget, it's still good to give supporting characters their own arc when you can.
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Dreamscale
Posted: August 27th, 2012, 11:13am Report to Moderator
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I'd even suggest giving any pets in the script a deep arc as well.

While you're at it, if there are any parents intro'd, make sure they have some sort of arc also - like maybe tie in an old war story, a drinking or drug problem, or maybe a side story of their everlasting search for an old flame.

If for some reason, you have to intro a waitress in a bar, don't feel bad if you decide to add a few pages about their pursuit of a college degree or their hardship at home.

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leitskev
Posted: August 27th, 2012, 11:35am Report to Moderator
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Jeff, arcs don't mean you have to have some deep thematic or highly intellectual aspect to your story. It just means it gives your characters depth when they want something, have a flaw, have to learn something, experience growth.

Look at The Expendables, which is a pretty shallow movie. The Jason Statham character struggles with finding out the girl he left behind did not wait for him, and is with another guy. Is this important to the film? Yeah. It gives the character depth.

But it also contrasts with the Stallone character, which has hardened his heart. His journey is that he has to learn how to care again or risk "losing his soul", as Micky Rourke put it.

The arcs of both these characters play off each other. Take them out, and the film loses much of its emotional power(not that it has it that much, but just enough to entertain).

We're not talking artsy fartsy film festival stuff. But this is the stuff that makes movies work, even your basic action hero films.

It's ok to learn how to scratch just a bit below the surface. It won't hurt, I promise.

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Dreamscale
Posted: August 27th, 2012, 4:48pm Report to Moderator
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Kevin, do you think Statham's arc is the reason the movie was successful?  Do you think the vastly male action movie type really gave 2 craps about this?  I highly doubt it.

IMO, these all important arcs are way over-rated.  I like how Pia puts it usually, just wroite your story and chances are if it's a decent to good story, all these things will be included even though you honestly don't give a crap about them.
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Pale Yellow
Posted: August 27th, 2012, 9:03pm Report to Moderator
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I've seen movies with ensemble casts...but for example ...what if you are writing a rom/com. There are sort of ...two protags if you think about it. I've seen many like this that I can't really say one is more important than the other. Also, it's weird but in a rom/com sometimes the antag is not necessarily another person.

Am I way off base here?
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leitskev
Posted: August 27th, 2012, 9:42pm Report to Moderator
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Jeff, these things are in movies, and they don't just spontaneously appear there.

Look at Star Wars. Han Solo has to learn how to not be self absorbed, and he's certainly not the protag. He has an arc.

Statham's arc is not THE reason in Expend, but it's part of it.

Most of this stuff the viewer does not consciously think about. But the writer has to. That's his job.

I feel like at this point you are being stubborn about this part of writing because you have the idea that thinking about these things either means one is conforming to some formula, or is trying to craft a Canne's Film Festival script.

When you realize that this stuff is in every film, it will only help your work. Would you agree conflict is critical to film? Well, learning how to set up your characters with conflicting goals/desires/needs, and the path they take to achieve them(arcs) is crucial to conflict.

It's the hardest thing to master, but we have to try.


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Dreamscale
Posted: August 28th, 2012, 3:43pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from leitskev
Jeff, these things are in movies, and they don't just spontaneously appear there.

Look at Star Wars. Han Solo has to learn how to not be self absorbed, and he's certainly not the protag. He has an arc.

Statham's arc is not THE reason in Expend, but it's part of it.

Most of this stuff the viewer does not consciously think about. But the writer has to. That's his job.

I feel like at this point you are being stubborn about this part of writing because you have the idea that thinking about these things either means one is conforming to some formula, or is trying to craft a Canne's Film Festival script.

When you realize that this stuff is in every film, it will only help your work. Would you agree conflict is critical to film? Well, learning how to set up your characters with conflicting goals/desires/needs, and the path they take to achieve them(arcs) is crucial to conflict.

It's the hardest thing to master, but we have to try.


Kevin, I was going to quote various lines here and respond, but decided it's not worth the effort.  I do want to say a few things though.

You say that the stuff we continually disagree on is something that the viewer does not concsiously think about, but it's the writer's job to.  Why?  Why would the writer have to worry about something that means little to nothing to most viewers?

I think that's my point in a nutshell.  The only reason you and others like you believe this to be true, is because your gurus have pounded it into your head and told you that you must, so you feel you need to.

And this could be why numerous critics pan movies that think outside this box.  Could be a reason that most horror movies get such a bad rap.  Sure, most deserve it, cause they do indeed suck, but it's not due to the lack of main Protag character arc or pet/parent arc.

This stuff is not in every film.  Sure, maybe you or Balt or the like could read way into something and find something that relates to all of this, but again, why?

Why can't a scrpit/movie just be a fun ride?  Entertaining?  2 hours to take your mind away from all the stress we deal with on a daily basis?

It can...and more should.

Horror needs to be horrorific.  Comedy needs to be comedic.  Drama needs to be dramatic. Mystery needs to be mysterious.  Thriller needs to be thrilling.  Action needs to be action packed.  It's really quite simple if you want it to be, or let yourself write it that way.

Your goal as a writer is to entertain...plain and simple.  If you feel the need to shoehorn in some arcs and imagery, go for it, but don't continually tell peeps that their scrpits suck because they don't have a strong character arc or the like.

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Andrew
Posted: August 28th, 2012, 5:05pm Report to Moderator
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It's a really interesting post. In lieu of a character as a protagonist, it's surely the story, plot or a theme assuming the role.

Guess that depends how slippery we think the definition of protagonist is.


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leitskev
Posted: August 28th, 2012, 5:14pm Report to Moderator
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Jeff, who is my guru? I've been writing less than 2 years, and only one person mentored me: you.

So first of all, thank you.

Second of all, get off this constant reference to gurus. There aren't any. I've never taken a class. I've read a few books, who hasn't?... but I don't keep them under my pillow. I read them once, moved on.

I don't think you really read my posts. Not only have I said this before, many times, but I made clear above, this IS about entertainment. I am not talking about a film making a point, or achieving something intellectual.

Let's take horror. The purpose is to horrify people. Well, to do that, you want the audience to care about the characters. To be effective at that, those characters should be 3 dimensional so they seem real.

To make them 3 dimensional, there are things that help. Give them a goal, give them a flaw. This is what is meant by creating an arc. Make them have to learn something. Put them through a trial of having to overcome objectives.

Also, conflict is important...for entertainment. To create conflict, characters need to have conflicting goals. To keep these goals aligned in conflict, it helps to give them conflicting arcs.

Now...get things right. PLEASE. Before you post a response, please review what you write and make sure it's accurate. I have done a lot of reviews on this site. And I have never told someone their script sucked. Or anything even remotely like that.

Are you mixing me up with yourself? Are you projecting?

I ALWAYS try to give the writer suggestions and ideas how to strengthen the script. They may be bad ideas, I am an amateur, but they are honestly and constructively given. Will you withdraw your statement that I "continually tell peeps that their scripts suck"? Because you know this is nothing near the truth.


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Baltis.
Posted: August 28th, 2012, 5:39pm Report to Moderator
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Pepper the script with substance, but do it in moderation... Nothing is worse than something forced upon you.  If your character doesn't bend the spoon with his mental powers after he's spent the entire movie trying to advance those powers -- Fine, whatever.  Save it for the sequel, or chalk it up to him just being a flawed individual... That's his arc.  He was flawed and he worked and worked and worked on being better and he's still flawed.  We can't say he didn't go nowhere in the script or his character didn't "advance".  He obviously did, he just didn't advance into the level he wanted to -- That level being the level of bending spoons with his mind.

So for every high arc there is an equal and negative low arc that can still be considered an arc.  

I agree with you Jeff, some characters you create should just be there to advance the other characters and they do not need war stories, drug and alcoholism or wife beater syndrome to make them stand out.
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Felipe
Posted: August 28th, 2012, 6:45pm Report to Moderator
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I have to agree with Kevin here.

Jeff,

You're saying all writers need to worry about is making an entertaining script and everything will be fine. That's like saying "just make sure you have a great story and then you will have a great story." Al you are doing is generalizing what it takes to make a great story.

As Kevin said, everything needs conflict. Not just the main conflict of the story, but a scene needs conflict and characters need conflict. They conflict isn't always external, and not every background extra needs it, but the people the story is about and other major players need to instill conflict into the story. You can't just make a character who wants to save the world and is perfect and strong and expect people to be on the edge of your seats when they know he has to prevail because he is perfect.

No one would watch Mad Men if Don Draper was just a great guy who is nice and great at everything.

Superman is perfect is most ways (minus the whole kryptonite thing) but he still struggles with the woman he loves.

Conflict is a part of life and, while they may be out there, I doubt there are many successful movies out there where the major characters don't have internal and external conflicts.

Denying the existence of arcs and calling it "writing a an entertaining story" is fine, but it's the same damn thing.


'Artist' is not a term you should use to refer to yourself. Let others, and your work, do it for you.
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Dreamscale
Posted: August 28th, 2012, 7:53pm Report to Moderator
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Kev, 3D characters do not necessarily need some shoehorned conflict to make them interesting, engaging, or just affective.

I did not intend on you or anyone thinking that you trash scripts.  Period.  What I meant was that in your advice and suggestions, it almost always involves some kind of arc, or shoehorned character trait or situation, that is not what makes scripts and movies work.

It is my belief that when we read a script or watch a movie, we should not try to reinvent it.  We should merely note what works and more importantly, what doesn't work...and why.

Things that don't make sense are the killer of most scripts and movies.  Characters who don't act, speak, or react like humans is a killer.  Situations that just don't compute, like piss poor setups, destroy a script instantly.

If you literally read a script and your only complaint is that a character doesn't have enough conflict working against him, or doesn't achieve a powerful and important arc, or the like, to me, is ludicrous.

What I'm saying is that there are so many much more important aspects that jump off the page or the screen.

Felipe, you're saying in jest what I'm saying for reals.  It may sound stupid or naive, but I tend to break things down to their smallest and most simple components, and when you do that, you sure as shit don't worry about your character's arcs and their shoehorned conflict.

Balt, you rock.  Hope you're recovering.  I just started working out again, after a year layoff. Damn, have I been sore, but it's the good type of sore.  The muscles are remembering, and I've already dropped 10 pounds.  Keep us up to date on Frostbite!!!
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leitskev
Posted: August 30th, 2012, 1:45pm Report to Moderator
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Sometimes, Jeff, when we read a script it's not easy to identify what exactly the problem is. All we know is that there seems to be something not working, and we do our best, constrained by our own ideas of course, to discover the problem.

When people read my scripts, there are times when all of the readers seem to stumble over a certain part of the script, but yet each has a different explanation of what they think the problem is. Cumulatively, this still helps me, even though no one hits the true problem right on the head. I usually come up with a solution no one envisioned, but their comments were critical in helping me identify what I think the problem was.

I don't go into a script read looking for anything but for the story to work for me. I don't care if there are act turns or where they are, how many protags there are, or whether there is a theme. It's only when things seem to come off the rails for me that I start looking for an explanation. And I might not hit the mark, but I'm trying. The bottom line in those cases is that the story is not working for me.

A lot of these things I am talking about you don't want to look at because you think it's some ivory tower type artsy fartsy stuff. But it's not. Flaws, conflicting goals, lessons learned...these are in most films. You might not recognize them, especially when they are done well, but they are there.

I watched Tucker and Dale the other night. Great movie, a riot. And these things are built right into the script. Dale's flaw is he is insecure and unassertive, wants to please others too much. He has to learn how to stand up for himself in order to get the girl.

There's no need to make it deeper than that. Dale's lack of assertiveness creates comical conflict with Tucker and with the girl. Dale wants others to accept him, Tucker wants to be left alone to fish. Even in a film like this, they build in a flaw and an arc which fuels a good chunk of the story and bonds the audience to Dale.

Learning how to do these things helps us write scripts. That's what most of us are here for.
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Felipe
Posted: August 30th, 2012, 4:14pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
Felipe, I need you to p*ss on me.


Sorry, buddy... Not into that kind of stuff.



'Artist' is not a term you should use to refer to yourself. Let others, and your work, do it for you.
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