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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Screenwriting Discussion    Simplyscripts Collaborative Effort  ›  Shiva - Discussion Part 2 Moderators: Mr. Blonde
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  Author    Shiva - Discussion Part 2  (currently 8888 views)
Dreamscale
Posted: February 2nd, 2009, 8:45pm Report to Moderator
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I think it's been fun and I guess it has helped in some ways.  You've pretty much got to deal with whatever the other posters wrote when you're up, and it's not always easy...as we've had some wild turns of events that are difficult to stay with.

I personally don't see this being rewritten into a final script, but I bet others feel differently about that.

We'll see...
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MBCgirl
Posted: February 2nd, 2009, 8:56pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Grandma Bear
hey guys,

I have to admit that I have not followed this "game", but I am curious. How do you guys feel about this collaboration? Has it been helpful/beneficial to your own writing? Do you think you will rewrite it into a final feature? Just curious.  

Thank you


I think this game has been good for me...I will speak for myself on this.  I do believe we have only scratched the surface on the story and the characters, as I mentioned earlier and I would like to see this developed more fully.  Infact...the last one standing is supposed to write the ending...but in my mind...I think we should amp it up and have a contest to see who can write the best ending from all of the writers in this post.  I have, what I think, is a great ending...but someone may write it better!  

I felt that at times there was a bit of a disconnect between scenes...even the ones that were related and I'd like to see those shored up.  Overall...I have enjoyed this story and exercise.  Cornetto has done an excellent job of keeping us moving forward and on track...  Thinking about it now objectively...he could have had even tighter reigns at times to keep the story more solid|connected in the end   I know a few won't agree on that level.  If you're writing Seinfeld episodes, disconnects are great but for something like this I think fluidity with back stories is a better fit.

That's my 10 cents for now


http://www.myspace.com/mbcgirl  

I love words and the fact that when the page is blank...there's nothing there until words are formulated in my brain. Those thoughts...rushing through my viens and out my finger tips, find "life" on the page.  

When people and places come to life...that to me is exciting.


MBCgirl =)
My finger nails should look nice while I type - Red works!
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mcornetto
Posted: February 2nd, 2009, 9:05pm Report to Moderator
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It's a battle deciding if I want to exert some kind of control of the story or if I want to leave it up to you all.

In some ways it would be better to work from some sort of outline, but that isn't the sort of first draft conditions I'm trying to emulate with these games.  

These are strictly, sit down and write a story and work it out as you go - get the first draft together and then edit it into a cohesive script.  

I think we have plenty of material if we wanted to edit Shiva, but I think that it won't be an easy job.  There will be lots of decisions to make and lots of material to add and remove.    
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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: February 2nd, 2009, 9:11pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


What if the Hokey Pokey, IS what it's all about?

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I feel I learn a lot by doing anything. Not by reading about it, but by doing it.

This collaboration, no matter what faults we find is that kind of opportunity.

You don't learn to write by reading books about writing, you learn by doing it. Like cooking, like driving, like piano... etc...

This game has taught me not to waste time on a character/s that come in half-way into a script, (no matter how appealing they seem to me, or how relevant, I may make them out in my own mind).

It's taught me that clearly defined good guy versus bad guy is a good thing to include in the set-up no matter how simple it sounds.

It's taught me that when you're dealing with a "God" or an "Alien" or anything huge, you need to analyze and write its qualities and sometimes bring the being down to earth in some way that we can relate.

From my perspective, it's been a challenge because Shiva is mostly a secret. We see the apparent affects of Shiva, but not Shiva. What wouldn't be understood by the audience (unless they're Hindu) are all of the aspects of Shiva including Rudra-- the healing aspect.

Writing and studying the script in a variety of lights and from different perspectives I think is extremely beneficial.

Sandra






A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.
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George Willson
Posted: February 3rd, 2009, 9:57am Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


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I think my main disappointment with Wolf is that I didn't know I'd never have a scene to write with him, so I'd never have a chance to really use him for myself. His character went directions I never thought he would, and his end threw me for a loop. I actually had a relatively decently developed backstory about who he was before he became a mountain man for when I had a turn with him, and then I learned that my two turns were it for me, and I was kind of like, "oh."

I'm not devastated. I'll just have to save the character part of Wolf for another time, since his true character never came out. I don't even think it came up at any time that he didn't dream because he was on medication for night terrors, and so he actually had no idea who these people were seeing in their dreams. I think that's the secondary disappointment. I tried to come up with something truly unique in this world we have: a non-rabid animal and a man who doesn't dream. Yet, he is drawn to the same place. Why? If the dreams weren't drawing them, then what was? Wolf showed that there was something greater at work than just dreams. But no one really used any of Wolf's character traits. He was mostly a cardboard cutout that made you wonder whether he was hero or villain and in the end, he remains an unknown.

I think it was a really good idea to bring in new characters late in the game because it gave us the challenge of trying to maintain the momentum of the climaxing story yet trying to take a few moments to develop some new characters within that framework. Did we succeed? I don't know what Piscivorus' intent was, but I hope he seems to have had more use and development at least. I think Wolf was a complete failure, though. He was kind of a point of interest, but nothing more.

RIP Wolf. No one really knew you, but if ever I can find another story for you, you will come back. Perhaps we can fill you out more completely in the rewrite.

If I had any comment about his death, it should have been defending Timber as opposed to...um....whatever the hell happened to him.


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stebrown
Posted: February 3rd, 2009, 10:50am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale

Also, as you said, his death was strange, and I think it would have been better if he died doing something, as opposed to just having snakes start popping out of his eyeballs.


Yeah, sorry about the sudden death. The problem was, I didn't realise I needed a kill in my scene, so there was no build up for that at all. I went back to add in a kill but without rewriting the entire scene, the death was going to be a bit out of the blue.

The Primitives have a link to the spiritual side of Shiva. The Leader was controlling this side in order to stop Wolf protecting the two that they wanted....but, yeah, a pretty bizzare death.


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MBCgirl
Posted: February 3rd, 2009, 11:25am Report to Moderator
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George I hear you with regard to developing your character.  I think when we have this many characters it is hard to bring them to life and do them any justice to some degree.  

Even when you are able to write a scene and develop your character like I did with Sam in my last post...I took most of her weakness away...and she surged with a new found inner strength after spending her time in the church and reading the Book of Mysteries...and then in the following scenes she goes back to being a simpering female that is unable to walk or hike and ends up being carried.   

But as I have said...that is my biggest complaint about this exercise...the disconnects we see from scene to scene.   A part of the exercise...let's say for me is to see how I can develop the character(s) and tie them in to the story I was left with or build from the point I entered the scene.

I left Sam totally equipped...she was toting a Baretta Double Barrel Shotgun and two Rugers with 17 rounds a piece are riding on her hip in a holster and if she goes out without a bang...it would be a huge disappointment for me as well.   

And I suppose...there in lies the beauty of this work...it's a bit like a patch work quilt that is beautiful in it's own way.  


http://www.myspace.com/mbcgirl  

I love words and the fact that when the page is blank...there's nothing there until words are formulated in my brain. Those thoughts...rushing through my viens and out my finger tips, find "life" on the page.  

When people and places come to life...that to me is exciting.


MBCgirl =)
My finger nails should look nice while I type - Red works!
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George Willson
Posted: February 3rd, 2009, 12:05pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


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Don't get me wrong here. I'm not complaining that Wolf died. Not at all. That's part of this game, so that's not an issue. Nor am I concerned about Timber and his fate.  I'm also not complaining about how he died. That's fine, Ste. I also don't want to come off as whining because my character got killed off. I'm not as petty as all that.

What grabs me are all the opportunities that we had with him to further explore the story that were neglected in the interest of letting him be the equivalent of the token black guy in a horror flick. No one knew him, nor was anyone interested because he was never developed. This made him an easy kill because no one would miss him and he contributed nothing (or very little) to the story. That's unfortunate.

You're right, Jeff. No one knew him. We need to consider why that is. Was it my background info of him? Did I need more out there? When we write, we tend to focus on plot and neglect character, when character should be what moves the plot. I kept hoping something more would come out about him, and I was continually surprised as to what was done.

So he remains a mystery. A guy who no one was interested in exploring. A guy who didn't dream in a world where dreams were integral to the system. A pet timberwolf in a world where the animals had gone mad. Anyone wonder how those two factors might have tied together? Were the animals really crazy or did they feel the presence in the humans' dreams? Or was Timber just special? We won't really know now.

Oh well. It does make me a bit sad, but not for his death...

EDIT: I just read MBC's post, and it is a patchwork quilt at this point. Hopefully, the rewrite will serve to turn the seemingly random patches into a cohesive work of art. I guess we all have a certain affinity for our own characters, and hope the best for them much like a parent for their children, and it makes us sad when they are under utilized or even stereotyped, such as Sam seemed to be.


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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: February 3rd, 2009, 1:07pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


What if the Hokey Pokey, IS what it's all about?

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Quoted from George Willson
I think my main disappointment with Wolf is that I didn't know I'd never have a scene to write with him, so I'd never have a chance to really use him for myself. His character went directions I never thought he would, and his end threw me for a loop. I actually had a relatively decently developed backstory about who he was before he became a mountain man for when I had a turn with him, and then I learned that my two turns were it for me, and I was kind of like, "oh."

I'm not devastated. I'll just have to save the character part of Wolf for another time, since his true character never came out. I don't even think it came up at any time that he didn't dream because he was on medication for night terrors, and so he actually had no idea who these people were seeing in their dreams. I think that's the secondary disappointment. I tried to come up with something truly unique in this world we have: a non-rabid animal and a man who doesn't dream. Yet, he is drawn to the same place. Why? If the dreams weren't drawing them, then what was? Wolf showed that there was something greater at work than just dreams. But no one really used any of Wolf's character traits. He was mostly a cardboard cutout that made you wonder whether he was hero or villain and in the end, he remains an unknown.

I think it was a really good idea to bring in new characters late in the game because it gave us the challenge of trying to maintain the momentum of the climaxing story yet trying to take a few moments to develop some new characters within that framework. Did we succeed? I don't know what Piscivorus' intent was, but I hope he seems to have had more use and development at least. I think Wolf was a complete failure, though. He was kind of a point of interest, but nothing more.

RIP Wolf. No one really knew you, but if ever I can find another story for you, you will come back. Perhaps we can fill you out more completely in the rewrite.

If I had any comment about his death, it should have been defending Timber as opposed to...um....whatever the hell happened to him.


If it makes you feel any better at all, I feel the same as you. I spent so much time working with Wolf and Piscivorus trying to find a reason for their appearance and their relevance only to find it was all for nothing.

In my mind, both Wolf and Piscivorus are now dead because without the fight they've always had for aeons of aeons, they die. Not just in this life, but eternally.

I don't know where that leaves the other characters. I suppose in a very very deep and empty void. No opposites. No life.

Very sad.

Sandra



A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.
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MBCgirl
Posted: February 3rd, 2009, 2:38pm Report to Moderator
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Don't worry Sandra...I had some thoughts of Pisci and Wolf in my mind from their always warring against each other from your last dream. I had already planned to bring those aspects into my next post...

I feel Sam had a connection between Wolf and especially Timber...and it plays into how I "think" the story is going...but who knows...maybe I'm a goof...okay...I am a goof! (How I hate to admit that )

I understand how you and Georgio feel though...and that is what I have been trying to say...in this context of a writing exercise...I think with this many writers, that it seems especially hard to develop things or should I more correctly say, continue to develop characters and circumstances in a "connected" fashion...at least that seems to be the case.  

The other aspect is that we were aligned with another writer so that they would be a sounding board...I have to say Dreamscale (as tuff as he can be) is a great partner for that - as he makes me think about multiple angles...and that makes me think about how it will affect the other characters.


http://www.myspace.com/mbcgirl  

I love words and the fact that when the page is blank...there's nothing there until words are formulated in my brain. Those thoughts...rushing through my viens and out my finger tips, find "life" on the page.  

When people and places come to life...that to me is exciting.


MBCgirl =)
My finger nails should look nice while I type - Red works!
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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: February 3rd, 2009, 6:27pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


What if the Hokey Pokey, IS what it's all about?

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Quoted from MBCgirl
Don't worry Sandra...I had some thoughts of Pisci and Wolf in my mind from their always warring against each other from your last dream. I had already planned to bring those aspects into my next post...

I feel Sam had a connection between Wolf and especially Timber...and it plays into how I "think" the story is going...but who knows...maybe I'm a goof...okay...I am a goof! (How I hate to admit that )

I understand how you and Georgio feel though...and that is what I have been trying to say...in this context of a writing exercise...I think with this many writers, that it seems especially hard to develop things or should I more correctly say, continue to develop characters and circumstances in a "connected" fashion...at least that seems to be the case.  

The other aspect is that we were aligned with another writer so that they would be a sounding board...I have to say Dreamscale (as tuff as he can be) is a great partner for that - as he makes me think about multiple angles...and that makes me think about how it will affect the other characters.


It really is hard because we do have to look at so many different angles and upside down and sideways. The upside is that we've got a team of people here; so we've got an enormous amount of mind-power. That's a benefit and we know of its negative side already, but everything has a negative side.

Our job is to work through it and filter through the material. Funnel it, sift it, sort it and do whatever we can to achieve the package that is "Shiva". Do we know what that is yet? Not yet. I think that comes after a lot more hard work.

In "The Strangers" thread we talked a lot about character or the lack of it and we also talked about atmosphere and mood.

Have you ever (of course you have) walked into a room and you proclaimed, "It was so thick you could cut it with a knife?" You know the tension I'm talking about here. When people have been fighting about something.

Well, in "The Strangers" when the couple enters the beginning scene, it's all about that. The context of the scene. In this case, the dialogue means nothing and it's all (that) thick tension.

Weaving this kind of meaningful tension into each and every scene (with a few breathers and juxtapositions) is very skillful indeed.

This kind of goal is big and tricky I know.

I agree that Jeff is very astute and its his kind of work with various considerations and analyses that are critical to working through murky territories in story development.

I give Jeff high commendations for his contributions on these boards.

Sandra








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Dreamscale
Posted: February 3rd, 2009, 6:47pm Report to Moderator
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Well, thank you so much for those kind words, Sandra!  I really appreciate them.  I do what I can, and the best I can.  I'm a perfectionist at heart, and I know it shows sometimes in my comments.  I can obviously be a bit on the negative side sometimes, but I do that in a way that is intended to help...hope it comes off that way...at least most of the time.

I've gone back to the very begining of our script here, and copy/pasted every single scene with Leona and Sam in them, and am reading the entire script to see what I can figure out about both characters.

I'm shocked because there are over 80 WORD pages that involve the 2 of them (not together, but involve either one, in any way).  There is so much that was started and then completely forgotten, or dismissed, and I just don't understand why.  I think for the most part that certain people just decided to go their own direction, and not continue certain character elements that were not only introduced, but came up again and again, and should have been very important.

I'm going to try and pull off a very big scene here and it will bring up some of these lost elements that should have been in play throughout the entire script.  We'll see how it goes.

The point I'm trying to make is that writing in a collabratively based scenario, requires that you know what took place earlier in the script.  You need to know the charcters personalities and abilities when you include them in a scene.  You need to know where characters are, so you can keep the integrity of the script intact.

Again, this isn't easy, and it's very time consuming.  But it's also very important, and I'm doing everything I can to pull this off successfully.  Hope you guys like it...I know everyone won't, but understand that I'm doing my very best here and it really does matter to me.

I can't rush this, cause there's so much info that I still am taking in.  I still think I'll be able to post by tomorrow evening.
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George Willson
Posted: February 3rd, 2009, 7:18pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


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I just went through the whole thing and copied it to into Final Draft (where auto formatting is awesome) to see what we were up to.

First of all, Are we missing a dream or something off the game thread? There seems like there should be something between posts 17 and 18 -- Mr. Ripley's scene(s). The boat goes off at the end of one post and then Leona jerks awake at the top of the next. Thought that was weird.

Anyway, we are up to 209 pages! And we're not done! This isn't a movie. It's a mini series.


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Dreamscale
Posted: February 3rd, 2009, 7:32pm Report to Moderator
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209 pages????  Damn, that's amazing..shocking, actually.  And even more amazing, is that, in theory, we're only 6 hours or so of real time from the very first word on the page.

Amazing...
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George Willson
Posted: February 3rd, 2009, 7:47pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


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Quoted from Dreamscale
209 pages????  Damn, that's amazing..shocking, actually.  And even more amazing, is that, in theory, we're only 6 hours or so of real time from the very first word on the page.

Amazing...


Dang, I never even thought about that. I'll bet you're right, though. That does move quick, doesn't it?


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