You know, I hate to see new members driven crazy by the relentless sarcasm that can permeate these boards.

I hope that does not happen here.

Yes, Adam, about 80% of the members here are too clever by half, but that does not negate their message.

Quoted from AdamGoodman ...does it hurt the content or readability of the text? I say no.  do any of the formatting 'abnormalities' deter the reader from understand the author's intent?  I say no.

Nearly everyone who reads scripts will answer these questions with a resounding "yes".

Many debate the existence of iron-clad "rules", to be sure, but there are "standards", and you are going too far afield.  Unless you are just writing for the sheer joy of writing for yourself.  Which is cool.  Many do.
  
But there are certain expectations that a seasoned reader will bring with them when opening a script -- particularly one that clocks in at 172 pages -- which is a big red flag in and of itself.

And every author beats their head on the desk when a reader checks out at page 2 or whatever.

It is utterly maddening!

But blaming the reader for that is the lazy way out, and you know it.  You had a reader on the hook and you lost them.

You got some fixing to do with this.  Several readers have already given you some sound advice.  For free.  Fix this right, and you might even get the length closer to industry standards.  Myself, I would start by losing every "cut to".

Just be aware, the first 10 pages is about all you can expect a new reader to look at. They owe you nothing and are giving you their valuable time to read your work. If you can't grab their attention within 10 pages then how can you expect them to read the rest of your work? Your first 10 pages need to be stellar if you want to get them to stay for the other 100. This is pretty much what the industry standard is as well if you ever send this out. Some people may only read the first page. Harsh? You bet. But now you know, so make the first 10 pages your best. Until your next 10.

Also be aware, nobody here can read your story because of your formatting issues. There may be an amazing story underneath it all but nobody can see it behind the mistakes. You like baseball it seems. Somebody may be a great baseball player if they can throw hard and hit well, but if they don't know the rules, can't play the game, who will know just how great they are?

Hearing people say negative things about your work can be hard, but did you not post your work for feedback? If you wanted nothing but glowing praise save this for your friends and family who have no idea what a screenplay even is. But if you want to get better you need to work on your weaknesses. Everyone here tries to help. Don't get defensive; they are doing you a favor. After all, they are taking time to at least read some of, and comment on, your work. What have you done concerning theirs?

You know, these are very good questions.  Am I going to "shop" this?  And do I understand that readers have a ADD?  If probably my answer to the first question is that I am shopping it right now.  In its way, this is shopping it.  So, that answers that question.  Am I aware that readers have a hard time getting past the first few pages of any new material?  I think I understand that.  But there is an argument as to whether not the first sentence or the first 10 sentences or the first 100 sentences need to be so exciting or not.  I remember trying to interest a student in reading.  He wasn't doing any homework and thought reading "horse whisperer" was a waste of his valuable time.  So I open the file for the film "kids" and of course the opening sentence is showed us two adolescents having sex.  Boy, he really liked the second one. Until he read it to the end and found out everybody got aids. boy was he pissed!

But tell me, which was the better screen play though? A dream of a Horse running in the snow and Grace and Judie singing a Liz Fair song was not nearly as interesting as

"The very loud sound of people having sex. The sounds of deep moaning and sexual huffs and puffs. After a few seconds the sound grows even louder. It should sound as if the two people are fucking into a microphone. The sounds should be painful
and raw."

and which one was the better film?
really, Which one was the better film?

I think any reader has trouble getting into a new piece of material.  You don't know the story, you don't know the characters, and you're unaccustomed to the author's pace and style.  People put down books after 5 minutes all the time.  And really,  when  Hemingway opened "fiesta" by talking about whether or not he believed Robert Kohn was a boxing champion for several pages, you really think anybody knew what the hell he was talking about?

I'm sorry for nothing.  These are a couple of screenplays that I've written.  I like them.  Truthfully, I like "happiness" more this year than I did last year, but that has more to do was what has been happening to people during the process of reading it this year and their reactions to it.  And I'm not talking about family and friends.

So I'm just saying, please, give it a read and tell me if you like the story or not.  I would talk about character development or  how I portrayed  events all day long.  I just disagree that you're looking at some hillbilly, slapped together, duct tape and wire story.  The formatting is reasonably close.  I definitely think it's as close as anything and there is no absolute set form.  It looks like a screenplay, it reads like a screenplay.  All I'm asking is, if you guys would be so kind, just read it and then tell me how badly it sucked  and how I ruined your life  and how your girlfriend left you  and that you were thrown out of your apartment and your hair started falling out  and you lost all interest in sex and couldn't eat red meat anymore because of my terrible writing.  That I could work with.  That would be valuable time criticism thank you very much for your presence in my life, your interest,  your eyes and your ears, tears, fears, laughs and thoughts.  That would be A salam alechem brat, muchos gracias.

Kids was the better film Though Horse Whisperer was great.

You know, I'm mostly in agreement with you, Adam, on the larger points, but I think you also need to consider the context here. You want people to take their time to read your script, and offer criticism, for free. So far, you're discounting criticism that you're getting -- that the formatting and writing style are making it difficult for people to get into the script. That's on you, not on them. You believe that this stuff adds to the script -- others are saying that it detracts. That's direct criticism of your writing. It's not superficial. They're explaining their experience (and mine) of reading the opening pages of the script.

You can write in any style you like and you certainly don't need to be sorry for anything...unless you tell people that they should read your screenplay, for free, when they don't want to, when they've told you why they don't want to.

OK, that is fair enough.  But why are we so happy to consider this website a free screenplay criticism service?  Maybe I am completely crazy, but it seems to me this is a web site dedicated to collecting screenplays.  And, they have this possibility of putting your own screenplay  here so that it has a place to be shown.  

But I didn't see anywhere that I should be ready for a series of cheap shots by a bunch of wannabe film critics.  Are any of these guys ever paid for their time and criticism?  Have I been talking to anybody who works for some production company?  Are you saying that some of these " I read 16 words of your screenplay and I know everything about you and your history and  your writing style" sitting around with potential management contracts at the ready?  Because I sincerely doubt that this website has the clout or money backing to support anybody who would be worthy of the normal salary as a film critic.  And hey, I don't mean to be rude, but  do you really think that is such a bad assumption?

So really, I am not so thin skinned and I do appreciate constructive criticism.  I just think it's pretty emptily bureaucratic to be completely unable to think beyond microscopic formatting ideas and whether or not a work as a whole has literary merit.  Or in declaring that your attention deficit disorder is part of your personal style.

Trust me, this shit is intriguing.  Check it out  L.A.

Quoted from AdamGoodman But I didn't see anywhere that I should be ready for a series of cheap shots by a bunch of wannabe film critics.

Actually, we have had conversations in the past about people who post their script for public consumption but desire no feedback.

If you would like, I can lock this thread so no further posts can be made.  I can also go back and delete all prior posts, then lock it up.

Let me know.

A free screenplay criticism service? I suppose in a way it is since the forum here have members who love to write and read screenplays and anything related and will, if they feel like it, read scripts posted here and offer input. We all read out of goodwill. Often we swap reads. I read yours if you read mine, kind of thing. We are not a bunch of official critics that just sit around and wait for someone to post a script so we can tear it apart.

If you really want someone to read your whole script, maybe ask around and see if anyone wants to do a swap. Otherwise, it might be tough. Especially after the back and forth in this thread.

You know, you might be right.  Seems like a lot of back scratching going on and I'm not really sure I was doing anything but posting a script to see what would happen.  I guess I'm just very disappointed that the kind of criticism I got never had anything to do was what I was writing about.   And now you guys are crying that you don't like me.  I don't know.

I've been using some scripts as teaching aids for years and it has really helped me.  Sam Scripps is a really good bridge between simplified, single page writings and short novels and novellas.

My problem was not that the criticism was negative, my criticism is that nobody read  more than a page  but yet but yet immediately started talking.  And now, amazingly enough, you guys are getting all emotional and I'm criticizing your criticism and not respecting you.  Isn't that a little like the pot calling the kettle black?

On my side, I started reading the scripts that were along with me on this page thinking I would go from beginning to end and thinking I would contact the writer and tell them what I thought of  their script.  I mean, film scripts are not giant pieces of literature and they usually it only equal about 30 pages of prose reading which, if you read  at a normal pace, you can usually knock off one of these in 1/2 hour to an hour of reading.  I have never thought that this was such a dramatic work of physical effort to require of anybody.

I don't think you have to close this third and I don't think I need any special attention.  But I thought this site was for people  who read scripts.  I understand now that there are a lot of  hungry wannabes out there.  Good for you.  And I don't even understand why there needs to be anything special to do here at all.  Here, here is a film script.  It is an entire film script.  The film has been completed.  I'm not  charging you any money to read it and I sincerely hope, with all of my heart, that she like it or that it brings up some emotions and you are titillates your imagination in some way.

And so I will repeat myself for possibly the 40th time.  I am waiting only for criticism of the work as a whole.  I appreciate all the comments that came to everybody's mind so quickly in the first page, and you are entitled to close it up after pager to know and say you don't want to read it.  I only put it up here so that people could have a look at it and to see what would happen.  And, I still have not gotten a single comment from anyone who has gotten two "the end".

But boy, you  LA guys are sensitive.

and sorry for all of the typos in my comments, I am getting a little tired and using voice program right now. this has been a really long day with you guys...

Yeah, we've all had this exact same conversation with others about a few hundred times.
Don't get your thick skin hurt by being told you're not the least bit unique.
Every two weeks someone wants to be special.
Every two weeks.
It seems like everyone wants to be special and fight "the man."

Honestly, I'm more impressed with you sticking around for a fight and not just running away crying.

Whatever.
Back on task...

I asked you a direct yes or no question and you replied with some round about coy answer.

Quoted Text You know, these are very good questions.  Am I going to "shop" this?  And do I understand that readers have a ADD?  If probably my answer to the first question is that I am shopping it right now.  In its way, this is shopping it.  So, that answers that question.

In ten words or less: Yes. You're shopping this.

Sigh...

That makes what you're shopping a spec screenplay.

Surely you know what a spec screenplay is.

Then you need to present a spec screenplay here in spec screenplay format, otherwise we're all just wasting time.
If you don't care then neither will we.

Whatever your fabulous story is, I'd be shocked and amazed if anyone wasted their time and effort digging through what's been presented here so far for a product (the screenplay) that has no hope of ever getting anywhere or doing anything "as is."

Don't expect everyone else to change.
You change.

Industry readers for spec screenplays gotta read a dozen of these a day, day in and day out, for weeks, months, years on end.
They don't have time to create a whole new format interpretation rule book for each and every funky format screenplay.

Your, my, everyone's spec screenplay submission to agents and prodco readers compete with one another.

Your, my, everyone's spec screenplay submission is a piece of gravel in a gigantic pile to be processed, screened, and graded.

"Look! There's your screenplay right on top!
Yeah.
For about 0.5 seconds."


Funky rocks get tossed out immediately, not marveled over.
Standard rocks move on to the next level.

We will show you how to put your spec screenplay in spec screenplay format so that we can even read the [expletive] story if you'll please quit fighting us.

Your spec screenplay is NOT one-and-done.
Expect to make some changes.
Now expect to make some significant changes.



Today is a fine day.

So far you've learned:
A) You have a spec screenplay.
B) It must be in spec screenplay format if it's ever to get read by anyone who can produce it.
C) You're not the first h3ll raiser to ever drop an ill formatted spec screenplay here.
D) We're quite comfortable with h3ll raisers, they're better than sissies.
E) We will help you get ahead if you'll quit fighting us.

Hey Adam,
I think you might be better off sending off your material to other websites that offer free feedback.

Oh...what's that?... There ain't none?... They cost $60?...atleast?...

Maybe send to SimplyStories.com. They might even pay you to read your script.

Heh, asshole behavior aside, I hope you realize by now this is not a place to just dump your stuff and expect glowing reviews. I hate to keep repeating this damn mantra but you get back what you put in - read reviews and you will get read. That does not mean - unless you have a swap deal - anyone is obliged to read the entire script. Nor do they have to write something positive. Honesty is the best policy.

I think you need to respect the site you have sent your material to a little more before you pass judgement on its members. This is a FREE site, only because Don, the Don ( the webmaster)chooses it to be. Not only does he allow us to post our scripts for free, he puts in great effort to maintain this one of the greatest screenwriting sites there is. It's a privilege to even be able to post scripts for free with such a wide range of scouts and producers hovering the place; perhaps you should be a little more graceful with your words.

You might have the greatest story in the world but it is up to you to present that in a reasonable format. You can't expect anyone to  read your entire script when presented with such a carefree, I-don't-give-a-shit-what-you-think attitude.
Here's a thought: Perhaps YOU have done something incorrectly instead of everyone else? Maybe let the comments sink in before replying. Think before you ink.

Moral of the story:

Adam will ignore all of us inexperienced hacks, put his script "out there" and wonder forever why nobody is interested (except for his mom and close relatives/friends). He'll also continue to insult the intelligence of people who attempt to guide him politely (see earlier posts) on his journey.

He'll ultimately blame the lack of interest in his "piece" on "the world not being as smart/creative/inventive/literate/whatever as he is" and will believe that every reader is simply ill-prepared to deal with his level of creative genius.

Hey, at least that's one less person in the race.

Parting note to Adam: If you can't handle critique with grace, then you're going to really, really, really hate this business.

ok, it is now 7:00am and you all have had a lot of fun spitting on me. Meanwhile, while writing letters, doing my normal day's tasks and a couple of extra things, I happened to have found time to read two other screenplays. One I thought was a little off, I mean not for formatting problems, I could READ IT you know because it was in English and everything,  and the other I thought had a little too much style and not a think enough texture or substance to be really interesting. It was smooth reading, but there was not really anything to think about.
But I guess in regards to yesterday, what was interesting was that I seem to have found, I don't know what the number is, it seems like 8 or 9 cannibals out there who have nothing better to do than to defend the 'biz' against potential infiltration by... I have no words here... just a minute...stupid, innocent, fairy-tale believing, empty-hearted, style-less hacks, you know, like me and, you know, like themselves.
So, I went to sleep and the word I was thinking of before just I slept soundly and peacefully was jealous.  I am not saying you are jealous of me, I am saying you are blatantly and godlessly (because it is one of the commandments you know) covetous and seem to have no other way of dealing with the world.
What I want to say today is that yesterday, to me, was like a lesson showing my why the world is as bad as it is. I see yesterday as if I started the day going down to the river for a little quiet fishing.
I was thinking ‘ok, here is a place to hang out for a while, drink a beer, listen to some tunes, and hey, if I catch a fish, so much the better’. I am not a professional fisherman. Some people are professional fisherman and I am grateful for their existences because, you know, I like fish. But I like fishing and thought that hanging out at the river would be kind of fun. And let me add that I have caught fish and have had fun fishing for a long time. And that fishing has been part of my life for … uh.. several years and in a way, I teach some aspects of fishing rather successfully to others and this teaching has actually had an enormously beneficial effect on those who I have taught to fish. But I digress…
I get down to the river, this is in LA by the way, and immediately people start yelling at me over the color of my shirt. ‘I like this shirt. It is a very comfortable shirt’ I say, but without pause for breath, they begin to tell me all of their own opinions and thoughts and fears and ‘wisdom’. They yell this to me endlessly.
However,  I refused to agree to change my shirt to suit the needs of people I will 99% surely never have any meaningful relationships with and this made them really mad.
Then they told me that by arguing with them, I had embarrassed myself socially in their teeming, successful, laced with roses and joyous utopian society. But I told them that really, I don’t care for the simple reason that I do not believe they are a part of any teeming, successful, laced with roses and joyous utopian society. And in fact, I see them as a bunch of stupid, innocent, fairy-tale believing, empty-hearted, style-less, LONELY AND COVETOUS  hacks themselves.
And finally, they started to talk about how I am only seeking ego gratification by sitting at the river and fishing and nothing more. So, I tell them that positioning themselves as parental figures, freely and piously offering their ‘tough love’ and begrudgingly free advice is really more of a personal ego stroke for themselves.  They are who they are assaulting. they are not in any way on my side and really, are just a bunch of lonely, lazy losers who have nothing better to do. Just like me? Maybe. Just like everybody? Maybe.
So my thought today is about why they were yelling at me so much. And I came up with the thought that  they were not actually even talking to me, they were talking to hear themselves talk. Why did they do this? For the same reason I do it: because we admire the sound and texture of our own words.  The words they were screaming were making them feel more real and solid and sure of themselves.  They were giving themselves the validation that they needed. It was, rapturously self-gratifying to be able to use their words.
And as they continued telling me how I will never catch a fish,  that only they know so much about the waters and how to catch fish, what they were really saying was that Hemingway’s ‘Old man and the Sea’, in its own metaphoric way, was right.  All of our lives are spent fishing and dreaming of catching the great fish that will change our lives, but in the end, it is indeed hopeless.
So how do I rate yesterday? I don’t know why, but I think I just consider it to have been an interesting day. Some other wanna be writers started yelling at me and I decided to argue with them. Why is that a bad way to spend a day?
So, my plan today is to try and spend some of my free time reading some more of the scripts here on the page along with me and giving my opinion of what I thought about the works that these people have put together.  And, of course, to talk to people who might want to talk to me about Paradise and Happiness, two fine pieces of writing. I think this should make this a pleasant day.
Oh, and just two more things. I have a job that I like very much and which pays the bills surprisingly well while also allowing me enough free time. And finally, I’m originally from San Francisco and I hate LA.

Heartbreaking stuff.

NEXT.

glad you liked it. but don't be going around stealing my style, yo!