Quoted from leitskev Regarding the inciting incident, I believe it is the first encounter in the teacher's apartment. All of their lives are changed by this eventually. The teacher at first becomes determined to take control of his classroom and his life. Sasha is more determined to accelerate her learning. Turrel, having seen his naked sister in the apartment, is set on killing the teacher. It is slightly late for an inciting incident, but not as late as it seems because of the cut to's in the opening pages.

I suppose my main issue with this is that it's not clear cut. I'm not a fan of obviousness, but it just doesn't hit me the right way. I'd make it more defined.

There are varius moments throughout the script that felt like they could be inciting incidents, but they don't really push the story forward. At least, they don't feel that way to me.

If Sasha is indeed the main character, I think the inciting incident should affect her in some way or the other. Sure, it can inadvertantly affect the teacher or the brother or the mother, but it has to provoke her to change or do something. And she doesn't. She's the same static character all the way throughout. Even Juno changed, despite the complaints that she's too static.

So, here's my question to you Matt -- what does Sasha desire and how does she change to get it?

You could say that she wants to further her education, but that goal dissapears in the third act. In fact, for acts one and two, she's more determined to seduce the teacher. She doesn't have a solid character arc. The teacher does. I'd pick one or the other to focus on. And, I never thought I'd say this, but if you haven't seen either of the two Nicholl winners I mentioned above, I think you should watch them.

They've got the same set up as yours -- depressed/reclusive/downtrodden teacher with dead family helps black kid succeed in one way or the other. I'd look specifically at the beats in both of those and try to place them a bit closer to the mark. You don't have to be obvious, but you can focus in on the main theme -- whatever that is. Par down to the bone, eliminate the melodrama (I'd advise ditching the incest too, as well as the abortion, or re-writing them), and really trying to develop either one of your main characters.

The thing about having Tyrell drive the script with his attempt to kill the teacher? It didn't really resonate with me. Either he really cares about his sister and thinks she was molested or he's jealous. And the jealousy thing doesn't fly. It's old and cliche. Even Cider House Rules has black father/daughter incest. And I liked that script, despite that.

Also, someone else, I believe it was Kevin, said something about Cora's reaction to having preformed an abortion. She does seem too calm about that. It just feels like a really busy script. You've got too much going on. I like that you're willing to push boundaries, but somestimes, too much is too much. And I'm not a squeamish person. Everything just kind of piled on and on and on.

Good luck

-- Cory

Hi Mark. I haven’t read any of the other comments yet.

As an admirer of the brave, dark shorts that I have read from you, I was looking forward to a feature.

In general, this was a real fast read for me. The first 30 pages seemed to fly by without a blink. Your action flows, and the premise was set up nicely. Being non-american, I’m obviously no authority on the dialect/slang of your characters, but I didn’t sense anything that felt out place.

That’s in general, allow me now to get a bit more picky.

I’m a bit of a lone wolf on things like this, but I didn’t like the technical aspects of your opening scene. Those ‘cuts’ just don’t work for me as an opener. I’d rather just have it in normal format. I don’t like things like that anywhere in a spec, so to do it on the first page really stands out as a no-no. I just think things like that should be left to the editor. Let them do the transitional jiggery pokery.

P.17 – 18. Ok, now here we go. As I said, I like your dark shorts, including the subject matter. However, there’s a time and a place. Considering the established tone of the piece, and the fact that this has been set up as a socially conscious drama, and considering the age of the girl – what happens here got a reaction from me. It’s probably not the reaction most people will have. We have a big hairy pube attack followed by seeing ‘wetness drips down her inner thigh’. My initial reaction was to laugh out loud about how innappropriate this was, and why you put in this level of detail. It’s easier to do this scene with a degree of subtlety, and I actually think it would have more impact.

I had a thought halfway through about Sazha. Why is she attracted to this man? I just can’t seem to fathom why she wants to sleep with him. So she has no father figure, she is intellectual compared to her peers, she feels sorry for him. But even with all the hormones of someone her age, I’m just having a problem grasping why she is so desperate to have him. Especially after Crandall has killed her brother…

P56 – “…she suddenly stops and looks at her crotch. A huge smile on her face.” This is followed by the phone call where she says that other thing. Again, I’m not sure how you expect to get away with this. More importantly, I don’t think it’s needed.

The incest part of the story – I was wondering if it was included to give us more of an understanding of Sazha’s behaviour, but I’m not entirely sure. A re-read may clarify this for me.  

Crandall’s suicide read really strange to me. How can we see the level of detail in the bathroom from Turrells bedroom window? That’s the only time in the entire script that I had to go back and read something to ‘get it’. (that’s actually a backhanded compliment – to reiterate: the script is really quick, Good work).

The anti-abortion angle was interesting, but as soon as we find out she is pregnant I knew that something bad was afoot…

Which leads us to the P83 when Cora decides to kick ass and drop the people’s elbow on her pregnant 13 year old daughter. Again, I’m not sure about the level of detail… as we then descend into the territory of underground Japanese hardcore-Gorno movies (that get banned in most of parts of the western world) I’m a fan, by the way. But tone-wise – do you need to go there in this story? Is it for shock value? Placenta art?  

There seems to be a conflict, Mark. On the one hand I think you may have a good social drama with interesting things going on, on the other hand we have some exploitation scenes which would be fine in a certain type of movie – but NOT a movie that has 13 year old children as their focal point.

I hope this makes sense.

I like your stuff Mark. I’m sure this script well get people fired up and talking. I look forward to the fall out!

Thanks for read.

EDIT -- I've just read the other posts. For the sake of balance. I'll say something that I may regret.

There's a alot of talk regarding -- inciting incidents/protags/antags/characters goals.

In my opinion (which may be mocked) I didn't see any problems here. Mark has correctly stated this would be in the realms of indie. Therefore, it's his perogative (some might say responsibility) not to follow such structured story 'rules'. To be slightly different.

I like movies where the character doesn't have a 'goal'. They do exist. I also like the occasional film where there isn't one main character who has to jump a series of walls to get from A to B.

The problems I have with the script are above, but not at one point did I start wondering about this kind of stuff. I didn't feel it was important to the story at hand.

Just my thoughts...

Quoted from B.C. EDIT -- I've just read the other posts. For the sake of balance. I'll say something that I may regret. There's a alot of talk regarding -- inciting incidents/protags/antags/characters goals. In my opinion (which may be mocked) I didn't see any problems here. Mark has correctly stated this would be in the realms of indie. Therefore, it's his perogative (some might say responsibility) not to follow such structured story 'rules'. To be slightly different. I like movies where the character doesn't have a 'goal'. They do exist. I also like the occasional film where there isn't one main character who has to jump a series of walls to get from A to B. The problems I have with the script are above, but not at one point did I start wondering about this kind of stuff. I didn't feel it was important to the story at hand. Just my thoughts...

I don't mock people who state their opinion in an honest, repectful way.

My point is that this is a very odd, often unorthodox way of structuring a story. Instead of actually having a goal (which, yes, even a lot indie movies give their characters) Matt's got a bunch of shocking torture porn, melodramatic events driving the script. It's like I'm reading a Tyler Perry/Jack Ketchum collaboration.

I'd like to see the movie defined by a character growing to acheive something, rather than bad shit happening, horrible shit happening, and even worse shit happening until it peeters out with a resolution. It works for super talented writers, read -- Toni Morrison, or stories that have bittersweet moments throughout, read -- Cider House Rules.

Honestly, I do read a lot of indie dramas. I love them to death. But even they have dynamic character who have arcs and goals and so on and so forth. This reminds me a bit of Blue Valentine, which, truthfully, I hated specifically because it revolved around melodrama, rather than an actual plot.

But I'm in the minority here, so I'll respectfully back out. I follow the rule of three. If one person says something, take it with a grain of salt. If two say something, think hard on it. If three say something, you've got a problem.

Once again, good luck Mark.

-- Cory

Hey, Basket.

I can respect that. Here's my thoughts on character goal.

The critical thing with a story is that there needs to be powerful engines driving the story at all times. A protagonist with strong goals, usually a likable protag who is actively pursuing those goals, is a common way of establishing a story engine. But it's not the only way. If something else is driving the story, then it's perfectly fine of the protag has no goals and isn't even likable. It's just harder to do it that way.

Think of a film as a book, and the idea is to always give the reader a strong reason to turn the page. If this is a film in the theater, make the audience stay in their seats. If it's TV, make sure they don't change the channel. That's what powerful engines do.

It's hard to do that if we don't like the characters. But not impossible. Think Phil in Groundhog day. And powerful goals keep us 'turning the page' because we want to see character achieve those goals. That's why their should always be stakes in play.

As far as inciting incidents, I actually don't really care either. I include it in the review because professionals that might look at his script might be interested in structure. But I don't care where the incident comes, or whether there is one, as long as something is driving the story.

The biggest problem I had here was overkill, and disbelief brought on by that overkill. It was too, too much. And it really isn't all needed. One or two really shocking things should be enough. They lose their power if there is too much. I think if Mark toned this down along the line suggested, this would work much better.

The say writing is rewriting. So Mark can absorb all the things that didn't work for people and address in the next draft. If he prefers. That system works pretty well.

Yeah, it's all cool. I'm not saying don't have these things. I love movies like that. I love generic, cliched stories as much as the occasional film that has a bunch of random stuff happening for ludicrous reasons. (which may be intended, or even at the core -- due to terrible writing!)

There's room for both. I just wanted to say that I didn't really spoil the read and I didnt really think about it.

Hey, Kev, Bloodfiend and BasketCase.

Sorry for not being around as much as I wanted to yesterday.  I'm kind of in the same boat today as I was yesterday, but I'll try and address some of the comments before I go to work.  I'm sorry I won't be able to tackle them all, but I'll have a few days off early next week and I'll be able to address some more things.

:-)  So, I guess not everybody's a big fan of my little tribute to the Grand Guignol.  I totally understand if someone didn't like this because of how graphic it was and how I really really pushed the envelope.  I do feel I have to defend myself (somewhat) against some of the comments or accusations, but in no way am I getting smart-aleccy or don't respect anybody's opinion about the story.  I'm just going to try and explain where I'm coming from.

As far as the way that Sazha's classmates talk...  that is just how it is nowadays.  I don't like it either and I don't like hearing it on the bus, especially coming from people so young.  Maybe, hopefully, it's not like that in all neighborhoods, but that's how it is here and this area is what I'm trying to portray in the story.  I'm not going to copy and paste dialogue from other teenage films because that's how everybody expects teenagers to talk.  I'm going to make them talk like I hear.  Of course, I'm not saying all teenagers talk like this, and I'm not saying that's how all black teenagers talk, but that's what I heard that's really popped out at me.

And trust me, Kevin, I admit I pushed this one really far.  This was just how the story came out to me.  I set out to write a tragedy, and the bad things just kept piling up.  I'm not going to say it's how real life is, but in my life, all the bad things seem to just pile up at once and at the end, when the wave finally breaks, I'm left just trying to push on with life and I try to get through it with a smile.  Eventually, I even find myself happy and don't think about how hard those times were until much, much later.  And that's what this story was ultimately about.

I'm sorry that's all I have time to write for now, but I should be able to get to your comments tomorrow, Cory (bloodfiend) and BC.

Once again, I apologize for not being able to comment all at once.  And thank you again for all taking the time to check this one out.

I'll talk to you guys later.

- Mark

Hey Cory.

I think I got a pretty thick skin, so you don't have to worry about being blunt around me.  There was only one thing said where I think I'll have to stick up for myself anyway, but with the rest I do understand where you're coming from.

One thing I do have to say, though, is that I'm really not up to speed on movies lately.  Yes, I used to watch a ton of movies when I was a teenager and in my early 20's, but I haven't seen much of any movies lately, unless it's those stupid 'couple comedies' that the girlfriend has been dragging me to.  So, unfortunately, almost all of the movie references you made were lost on me.  I might have seen one of them, I think, but some of the others I've never even heard of.

I know, I know.  It's bad form for a writer not to be up to speed on his craft, but something tells me I'll survive.

All right.  Down to the nitty gritty.

Quoted from bloodfiend Maybe there's some "deep" message about human nature hidden behind it.

I like to think there is.  In fact, I think the story says a lot about human nature.  (Or at least the way that I view human nature.)  With this story, I intended to focus on the good and the bad in us all.  Every character in the story has good and bad in them that I tried to bring to light.  Even the minor ones.  That's what I wanted to portray, that side of humanity.  No matter what, we're going to do something wrong.  I'm hoping that people take a moment to stop before they go through any immediate reactions to something.

Maybe it is thin for some to see, but I know I see it in spades.

Quoted from bloodfiend I'm wondering if all scripts about black people have to have them fucking their relatives

No.  Absolutely not.  I have white people do it, too.  :-)

Quoted from bloodfiend You're trying too hard to be Spike Lee.

Not even close.  Never even seen any of his movies.  Only thing I know about Spike Lee is what I've seen of him at Knick games.  I'm not saying I wouldn't be a fan of his stuff, but one thing I can promise is I don't try to be like anybody.  Yeah, maybe I wrote some of this in the style of Grand Guignol, but I certainly don't set out to be like somebody.

Quoted from bloodfiend What's your inciting incident? Is it Sasha trying to seduce the teacher or the teacher killing her brother? And what do these have to do with pushing the story forward?

I think this just might come down a difference of opinion for everybody.  To me, I think those incidents are exactly what pushes the story.  Is it more exciting than humans fighting an alien invasion?  No.  Is it more exciting than someone in a shopping mall defending themselves against mutant zombies?  No. Is it more exciting than a teenage mortal falling in love with a heartthrob vampire?  Well, probably, yeah.  But the point is, the characters still have to react to the situations. In fact, the whole story doesn't even revolve around one inciting incident.  The incidents keep escalating and escalating.  

Some have said now about how quick and easy this reads.  I was very surprised to hear that, for a drama.  Yes, sparse writing may have something to do with that, but I'm sure the pace that the incidents are set up may contribute, too.

Quoted from bloodfiend Don't have the white dude as the only normal person

Whoa.  I'm not sure where you got that idea in the story.  The man's severely depressed.  He can't even make his own decisions for himself.  The whole story, people are telling him what to do, adults and children.  And in the end, he gets his just desserts, I feel.  Maybe I wrote him as a character to feel sorry for, but in no way do I portray him as someone to empathize with.

Quoted from bloodfiend Also, I found your formatting kind of wacky. Why are the scene headings bolded? And why are there so many cuts?

The bolded scene headings are just a personal preference.  I really like the way it highlights scene separation.  The cuts were an experiment for myself, and only on the first page.  I agree with how weird they are.  I was just trying something.  I plan of finding another way of opening this.

Quoted from bloodfiend And the ending? Where suddenly Cora is a good guy after ripping a child out of her daughter?

Hmm.  I'm a little curious as to how you came to that conclusion.  Yes, Sazha's going to try her best to forget, (she's unfortunately absorbing some of Crandall's traits in just having to move on), but in no way is Cora redeemed.  She even has to tell Sazha to lie to keep herself out of trouble.

Quoted from bloodfiend And then you have the wise old man who imparts wisdom for no particular reason?

I'm sorry to say, I'm lost there, too.  What wisdom does he impart?  He only helps her out cause she seems to be in a bad situation.  In no way (at least not purposely) did I have him impart wisdom.

All right.  Sorry the story seemed to have angered you.  There is another issue I want to get to that you bring up, Basket Case brought it up, also.  About the incest.  I'll get to that in my next reply.

Thank you very much again for sharing your thoughts, Cory, and welcome to the boards!  Do you have anything posted here on SS yet?

I'll be seeing you around.

- Mark

Hey Mark,

Since the OWC double barrel dust bowl is settling, thought I'd crack this open.
Apologies for the delay, but you know I've had my hand in many jars as of late.

I'll take notes as I read, then sum up a bit after each section.

P. 4  Patton's line here reads odd. You need to stick it through and
        work through it. The double through tripped up my read.

P. 9  I'm just as perplexed as Crandall. Why would he do that?
       No teacher in their right mind would consent to such an arrangement.
       I've not gotten any indication that Crandall is off his nut either.
       Save for being a bit of a wimp with the taunting kids in class.

Stopping at page 20 today, pretty breezy read.
That's nothing new from you. Heh. Bit more unfilmables from you than usual.
Nothing wrong with that, just noting it's a bit of a departure for you.

Overall, I'm intrigued to continue.
However, I have a low tolerance for stories that hide events for too long.
Whatever is in the past of these characters better start getting doled out soon.

Sazha's advances didn't shock me, because you set it up.
Which turns part of the shock into genuine attraction for the girl.
She's wounded and sees something even worse off than her. I get that.

Let's see where we go from here.

Regards,
E.D.

Hey E.D.

Quoted from Electric Dreamer I've had my hand in many jars as of late.

Yeah, right.  You're probably one of the laziest people on the boards that I've come across.  

Thanks for taking the plunge into this one, Brett.  Hope you enjoy the ride.


Re: Pg. 4  -  The 'through' and 'through'.  -  I did catch that before in my editing, it even made me stop.  I'm at a loss as to why I didn't clean that part up when I first came across it.

Re: Pg. 9  -  Crandall agreeing to Sazha's terms.  -  I'll let you get a little more insight into Crandall's character, first, before I give you my opinion on that situation.

Quoted from Electric Dreamer Heh. Bit more unfilmables from you than usual.  Nothing wrong with that, just noting it's a bit of a departure for you.

  I'm guessing you're talking about the pubic attack, right?  If I were the director, I would be sure to show Sazha (namely, the 18 year-old actress playing Sazha) come up behind Crandall and rub her crotch against his elbow, but I do agree that the wetness dripping down her thigh would probably be unfilmable.  The wetness was just an example of something that I wrote for the short story making it into the screenplay, just to put a powerful image in people's heads.

Just out of curiosity, though, were there any other unfilmables you happen to remember offhand?  I thought I had edited them all out.  (And trust me, unfilmables were rampant in the beginning, so it doesn't surprise me that a couple slipped by.

Thanks, E.D., for taking a look.  I hope you enjoy the rest of it!

Quoted from rc1107 Hey E.D. Re: Pg. 9  -  Crandall agreeing to Sazha's terms.  -  I'll let you get a little more insight into Crandall's character, first, before I give you my opinion on that situation.

I realized that while I was reading, but here's the thing.
I let it go, because I know you, not because I accepted things as they were.
If I didn't know who the writer was, I probably would've dropped the script.
Seemingly arbitrary behavior with a sensitive subject matter never washes.

IMO, the script needs something to anchor the audience to Crandall's decision.
It could be just a hint of things to come, but the pages need that "tease".
Whatever about Crandall that goes along with this, "bread crumb" it right there.
Because if you don't, folks aren't going to come along for the journey, IMO.

Quoted from rc1107 Just out of curiosity, though, were there any other unfilmables you happen to remember offhand?  I thought I had edited them all out.  (And trust me, unfilmables were rampant in the beginning, so it doesn't surprise me that a couple slipped by. Thanks, E.D., for taking a look.  I hope you enjoy the rest of it!

Oh, there was one about Taye Diggs that I thought was cute.
And this on page six stuck out...
The whole class breaks into hysterics. Except Sazha. She
lowers her head and frowns, embarrassed for him.

The embarrassed for him part, was a little unlike you.
Not complaining here, just noting a style departure.

E.D.

Hey Mark,

Going to pick up from page 20 today.
My first thought...
I'm hoping to get some quick insight into Crandall's decision making.

P. 20 Here's another unfilmable, since you asked about them
        Sazha laughs. The ice between them breaks a little.
        I don't mind, they read fine, just not your usual fare is all.

P. 23  Didn't care for the drawn out explanation of the quote.
         Crandall "tramples" it with his first words, that part's fine.
         But Sazha expounding even more rang false to me.
         Too much immediate insight from her into Crandall kills the effect, IMO.

P. 27  There's a word or two missing in Clyde's line here...
         I have to concentrate on what needs changed in me and my attitudes.

P. 28  I'm confused here, I thought it was against the rules to know folks at AA.
         It seems Clyde is a colleague at Crandall's school?

Stopping at page 40 today.
I like the progression in Crandall, though it could be a little more subtle.
Then the reveal with Turrell, you took it a different way.
And if you don't divulge the details of said incident later, I'll be cross with you.

Looking forward to picking this up tomorrow.

Regards,
E.D.

Oh yeah.  I forgot I had one about Taye Diggs.  I did put that one in there knowing that it wouldn't translate well to film.  With all the heavy-handed things going on, I felt a little comic relief wouldn't be bad for the reader.  :-)

All the other ones you pointed out, though, I didn't even think of them as unfilmables as I was reading over them.  They just felt so natural while I was writing them as prose, they snuck in on me.

Ah, the explanation of the quote.  I'll have to go back over that again.  When I read over it with my tired eyes, I thought it might have been a little melodramatic and on the nose, but decided to see how it would play out.  I'll revisit that.

As for AA, it's bad form to know your sponsor personally, but there's no hard rules against it.  And there's no rules (that at least I know of), that people who know each other can't attend the same meeting.  At least, that's how it works around here.  Although, I'm not 100% on anything.  I've attended meetings before (forced and not forced), but I've never considered myself a member.

Anyway, thanks again for your time, Brett.

I'll talk to you later.

- Mark

Quoted from rc1107 As for AA, it's bad form to know your sponsor personally, but there's no hard rules against it.  And there's no rules (that at least I know of), that people who know each other can't attend the same meeting.  At least, that's how it works around here.  Although, I'm not 100% on anything.  I've attended meetings before (forced and not forced), but I've never considered myself a member. Anyway, thanks again for your time, Brett. I'll talk to you later. - Mark

I've never been either, but it stuck out to me for one reason:

Just had watched the new episode of "Homeland" and it came up on there.
In that scenario, one character was using that point to lure another into talking.
As if, they would be "bad together" and somehow bond because of it.

Had I not just seen that, I wouldn't have probably gone there.
So, I'd pretty much ignore me then on that one!

Regards,
E.D.

Hey Mark,

I'll climb back into "Thistles" today.
It will help me take my mind off the big elephant event tomorrow!

I'm picking up from page 40 this afternoon.

P. 41  For some reason I saw intercuts in my head here.
         The funersal service intercut with Crandall as he cleans.
         Screw the timeline, those visuals really impacted me for some reason.

P. 49  The margins appear to be off for these two lines of dialogue
        
          CHESTER
          All right. I'll walk you out to your car, then.
          CRANDALL
          Mr. Clyde send you here to make sure I didn't
          take anything from the school?

P. 51  General note: I enjoy how Cora holds onto her hate, literally even.

P. 52  This line would be great, with one change, IMO:
         CORA
         My baby just died! Ain’t no child should
         have to die.
         Lose the on the nose first sentence.
         Drawing direct attention to her hate here, robs the scene of its power.

P. 56  A sprinkling of pleases from Sazha here would work better.
         "Don't deny...." reads more like an order, and I don't think you mean that.

Stopping on page 61 today.
I'm not done processing the events that took place.
I have questions, but good questions, not a matter of clarity or logic.
I know why everyone hates themselves in this script, but Sazha.
Because to me, her connection with Crandall didn't come from a "good place".

I'm looking forward to finding out what Sazha's "picket sign" of hate is.

Hope this helps. To be continued.

Regards,
E.D.

Hey E.D.

Hope you're having fun at the event!

Ah, pages 40-60.  These scenes I wrote were heavily inspired by a few certain songs I had in my head while writing them.  That's why there's a lot of images and not too much dialogue.  I hope it doesn't read too much like a music video.  (It's also the main part where I'm afraid I might have gotten a little too artsy-fartsy.)

I'm not too sure what you mean about the dialogue lines on pg. 49.  I did only use Microsoft Word Processor writing this, but they seem to keep in synch in the pdf version.  Do you mean they go a little too far to the right marginally?  I have been guilty of that a lot, lately.  Just my way of avoiding some orphans.

Quoted from E.D. pg. 56 - "Don't deny...." reads more like an order, and I don't think you mean that.

:-)  Actually, I did mean for it to sound like an order.  She knows Crandall can be forced into things at this point.

Quoted from E.D. I know why everyone hates themselves in this script, but Sazha. I'm looking forward to finding out what Sazha's "picket sign" of hate is.

It's right around the corner.  :-)

Talk to you later!