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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Unproduced Screenplay Discussion    Drama Scripts  ›  Christmas Story - 7WC Moderators: bert
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  Author    Christmas Story - 7WC  (currently 8994 views)
Mr. Blonde
Posted: July 27th, 2012, 7:43pm Report to Moderator
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What good are choices if they're all bad?

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Quoted from Dreamscale
But first, I want to give you my overall impressions.  I liked it…a lot, actually.  Wonderful attention to detail displayed throughout, which is rare to come across.  You obviously took your time planning this all out and it shows.

There is power here.  There is raw emotion.  There is insanity, jealousy, brutality, and lots of sadness.  It’s Christmas like I’ve never imagined.


That's okay, I'm exactly the same way. Usually, you bring up quibbles you have and they tend to continue throughout the script so there's less need to mention them at the end.

I had to take my time. This script was the biggest pain in the ass. Fucking filed kept getting screwed up. It probably helped the quality in the end, but it's one of those things where I keep thinking, "Is this really worth it?"

That last sentence is something you'd see in a commercial advertising the movie.


Quoted from Dreamscale
I think it can be better, though, even.  As I’ve brought up many times below, you tend to overwrite.  You tend to have too much dialogue.  You tend to repeat a little too much.  These are relatively easy fixes, however, and if you choose to cut some of this fat out, you’re going to find you have a good 10-15 pages to work with…and I think the stories could use another 10-15 pages of additions.


That is my biggest problem (beyond differentiating my characters) is overwriting. I rely on my dialogue as my prose isn't exactly... up to snuff? I'd probably have to do a whole lot of planning to figure out what I'd do with those fifteen pages because, as they say, timing is everything.


Quoted from Dreamscale
I would have liked to see more of Maggie and her story.  I definitely feel Mathew is the weakest, or least developed character, and I was hoping to learn more.  As it sits now, he is a mystery, but not a good mystery.  I’d develop his story a bit more, as he didn’t quite work for me.


I kind of wrote it in a particular way. I didn't necessarily intend to stick to a beat sheet but it kind of happened that way. As for Maggie, she shows up in the script about an equal amount as everyone does but I didn't want a story to be specifically hers. Exactly the same as Matthew. They're there to deal with one specific character but they find themselves connected to others (as well as each other) just by chance.


Quoted from Dreamscale
But Sean, let me say this in all honesty and seriousness. I think you have something here and you know I rarely say that.  It reads a little slow as written and as I said above, I think it needs a few tweaks here and there, but I love what you’ve come up with.  I love how you structured it.  It has a Pulp Fiction and Go vibe to it and those are 2 kickass flicks, IMO.  If I were you, I’d put some more time into this and turn it into all it can be. It’s rare that I get emotional while reading a script, but I did here…several times.  I was even surprised several times.


Well, I really appreciate you saying that. I love Pulp Fiction but I watched Go (all the way through) for the first time about a week ago. Beyond Olyphantastic, I wasn't big into the movie. I plan to keep working on it, but improving is tough because I have kind of a hard time creating defined characters and their quirks. I'm actually curious what parts made you emotional and/or surprised.


Quoted from Dreamscale
I haven’t read any feedback yet, but I’ll be very surprised if others don’t see the power on display and attention to detail here.  This is some fine work, Sean – easily the best I’ve seen from you before.  You should be proud, bro.  Hell of an effort.  Now fine tune this baby, and you will seriously have something on your hands.


I have noticed that each thing of mine you've read I've gotten a better review on. I'm just waiting for the first one where it begins its decline again.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Page 1 – Your opening passage/Slug isn’t really necessary.  It’s a good visual, but since you’re not really showing us anything important, you could just as well start with your 2nd Slug, and have the police car pull up to a stop, next to the other cars.


That is why it was there. The visual or as the beat sheet says, the "Opening Image". I don't really care about the beat sheet but I wanted it to start special... and at the end.


Quoted from Dreamscale
OK, opening dialogue sounds pretty good, but my only concern is that I don’t feel you need a whole page to show what you’ve shown so far.  Not a bad page 1 by any means, though.  If I were reading on my own, I would continue, so that’s a good a sign.


It's not as bad as it was but re-reading it, I still don't like how that scene came out.


Quoted from Dreamscale
I don’t really follow the dialogue exchange between Chris and Ambrozik.


Another sequence I never liked but I had to have Chris be at the liquor store before going to the diner. So, I wrote in a mini McGuffin.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Page 3 –  “DAVE’S – FRONT” – Ummm, not sure what you’re trying to do with this Slug – FRONT is not a time element.   EDIT – I really dislike “Dave’s” for the name of the Diner, especially since David is a main character.


I was told to drop most of my Continui because it follows a character going from one place to another. So, that was technically a mini-slug as I was signifying the front of the diner but I left off the continuous.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Page 7 – OK, I actually like this scene here with Chris reconnecting with his Mom, but again, IMO, it drags a bit.  Also, you should immediately intro the Mom and kid, since you do later here.


Yeah, it drags but it's a breeze compared to how long and overdrawn it used to be. I know. That was a bad case of me directing. I wanted to imply that they were there without focusing on them yet.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Chris’ Mom’s dialogue could use a little freshening up – she sounds a bit robotic in places and maybe you’re going for the distance between them, but I think it could use a look or two.


Yeah, she does. Her character was one of the toughest when it came to giving her a proper voice. Definitely something I need to work on.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Page 13 – Woooo, not where I thought this was going…at all.  I guess that can be considered a good thing.  Same thing I want to say again – I like your dialogue but there’s too much of it, IMO.  I don’t see this as being near 13 minutes of film time.  Much of this is based on how you’re choosing to write what you want to say.  Also, there are definitely many lines of dialogue that don’t need to be here.


Surprises are good, I suppose. I know, I know. The dreaded overwriting and overdialoguing.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Page 19 – “We all go a little mad sometimes” – NICE!  Love it.  I enjoy when writers can weave in a classic line form a movie and have it make sense.  Creepy, actually, but effective.


That was something I had added in the new draft. See, in the old one, I spelled out the fact that Vincent was a voice in David's head. In this one, I tried to leave it a little more ambiguous but tried to give subtle clues. That was one of them.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Page 21 – Sean, this has some serious potential, but again, this death scene is another example of you writing too much and losing the effect…the power of this powerful scene.  Too much talking takes away from what just went down.


There was a lot less talking in the old one but I had changed Sasha up between the two drafts so I needed her reaction to be different this time.


Quoted from Dreamscale
I’m also confused now about this Vincent guy on the phone.  Unless he’s literally just offscreen, his dialogue has to be (V.O.).  I’m wondering if he’s even a real person or some figment in Dave’s mind.  We’ll see.

I was always under the impression that V.O. was reserved for inner monologue, but it does makes sense that Vincent would be V.O.

[quote=Dreamscale]Page 33 – IMO, you don’t need or want all the exact same stuff happening again, as we just saw it happen.  We know exactly what’s going to happen, so unless you play this scene from a completely different perspective, it feels old and stale.


It's one of those things where the angle is important because of Vincent virtually controlling David's thoughts and actions. If I didn't have that, I'd have cut his story much shorter.


Quoted from Dreamscale
So, my recommendation is to cut out the fat and add some new stuff to spruce them up a bit.


I've been trying to find ways to do that, but it still has to fit within the confines of the story I've put the characters into.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Page 35 – Wooo – love it – “never shake the Devil’s hand”.


I didn't exactly mean it literally but more his thoughts on people who hire him to kill other people.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Page 46 – Sean, again, I like what you’re doing with this new scene but this one is even longer than the others and it’s 2 peeps in a diner talking with nothing happening around them.  Too much dialogue can sometimes kill good dialogue.  Needs to be trimmed or something exciting or interesting needs to happen.


Like I told you in the beginning, I apologize in advance for stories two and three, specifically three.


Quoted from Dreamscale
You are doing a terrific job of tying this all together. I am very impressed, actually.  It takes a real attention to detail and you’ve obviously put the time in and done your homework.  It shows.  Good job!


Now, if only I'd paid more attention to creating an interesting situation for my characters to be connected to... =)


Quoted from Dreamscale
For awhile, I was thinking this wasn’t going anywhere, but by bringing in Kacey and Abby, and then having Jason give away the winning ticket, which will most likely be the final nail in innocent Randall’s coffin, is well played.


Yeppers. Poor, sad bastard Randall.


Quoted from Dreamscale
“Chris saves himself by grabbing of the railing.” – Not sure what this is supposed to say.  Typo in here, maybe?  Otherwise, very awkward.


Yeah, that's bad writing and after re-reading through the script again, I found a sentence that didn't have a period at the end of it. So disappointed.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Page 83 – I’m definitely confused as to who Mathew is, and his connection with Jason, but I’m sure I’m about to find out as we go into another story angle.  EDIT – We never find out and that’s a problem.


I don't think it's a problem. He has no connection to Jason other than knowing that the money was his.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Page 87/88 - “DAVID’S HOUSE” – This entire scene is way overwritten.  Too much description, too much everything.


We can agree. It was another case of me directing. I mentioned everything that was going to be referenced during the next sequence, but it's not all necessary in a spec.


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danbotha
Posted: September 8th, 2012, 1:27am Report to Moderator
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Hey Sean, I'm going to be quick with this as I really don't have much to say. Sorry about that.

I have to admit, when you first went back and told the exact same story from a different perspective, I didn't approve. I've never been a great fan of that and I believe you have to be a truly great writer to pull it off... I guess that makes you a truly great writer, then

You pulled it off, in this and the way those stories intertwine in the end is just brilliant.

Just putting it out there, it reminded me a bit of 'Crash.'

Overall, I couldn't fault this. Not a single problem. Not even the start of a single problem.

I think it's fairly safe to say I enjoyed it. Great work!

Dan

P.S. Sorry this was so short. I'm feeling a little guilty, but there really isn't anything else I can say...



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Mr. Blonde
Posted: September 8th, 2012, 2:25pm Report to Moderator
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Dan,

Thank you for the read and I'm glad you liked it so much.

A lot of people say that story overlapped too much and there was going to be a version of David's story I wrote where there was no Vincent. But, the story lost virtually anything we didn't learn from Chris or Sasha's story so I kept it.

I highly doubt I'm a great writer. After all, I'm sure you could come up with something better than this if you spent three years on it, non-stop and re-wrote it from scratch thrice. It was just kind of an "I'm going to finish this damn script" mentality.

I'm also glad the ending worked out as well. Some people liked the tie-up, some didn't. I don't have it exactly what I want, but I'm nearly there.

Yep, I've gotten Crash. Crash, Pulp Fiction, Go, Babel, The 25th Hour and 11:14. Now, if only it were actually as good as those instead of just reminding people of them. Then, I'd be going somewhere. Lol.

No problems at all? No over dialogue, no under dialogue? Nothing wrong with Chris', David's or Sasha's stories? No melodrama in Randall's or too much retreading in Jason's? There's always problems but if there's none of any discernable note, then I can accept that. There's still things I have to, and am going to, change.

I'm happy you enjoyed it and thank you for the praise.

I don't mind it being short. If you couldn't find anything you didn't like, I like that. Less work I have to do to it in the future.


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Guest
Posted: March 3rd, 2014, 1:40am Report to Moderator
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Hey Sean, you sent me this (and another script) to check out in my thread that I posted in the script exchange forum ("send me some good stuff").  It's been a while and I'm sorry I never got around to taking a look.  For some reason it always escaped my mind.  Apologies.  Sincerely, dude.  I took a long time to get around to this.  I briefly glanced over some comments before I started reading.  Jeff's glowing praise for 'Christmas Story' got me pumped, because you hardly ever see him so behind a feature on here. haha.  I wish I could share his feelings.  But, before I go on, let me just say I'm nobody special.  I have nothing produced.  I'm not a professional.  I wanted to like this, because you seem like a really cool cat around here, Sean, but I just could never get into any of the story.  I'm really sorry, man.

I have no real big problems with the script.  Your writing is quick and easy to read.  The rest was just not my cup of joe, sorry.  The one thing I think I really liked were the surprise kills (Chris, Sasha, etc).  I wasn't sure if they were going to buy it or not -- especially Chris, since he looked to be our main character.  You set it up where it could go either way.  The flip side to that coin is that these characters aren't that well developed yet in a lean 90 page script which has a lot of other stuff going on as well.  It's a nice "jump" type moment, but it's not a gut wrenching, effective moment.  So when some of your dead characters are back on the page, I didn't really have anything invested in those scenes because I already knew what happened to them.  

I wasn't a big fan of the dialogue.  There were numerous times I found myself re-writing the scene in my head, trying to replace the OTN stuff.  I wasn't fond of the David/Vincent exchanges.  I felt that went on far too long.  The ending reminded me of The Departed.  You think David gets away with everything and then Jason shows up and just blows him away.  

In conclusion, this wasn't for me.  I see such films as Pulp Fiction and Crash were mentioned in some posts.  Yeah, I'm a fan of interconnecting stories and what not, but I just feel this wasn't as good as it could be.  To me there just wasn't enough stakes or urgency.  Nothing thrusting us forward big time.  Moving on to your characters, I think they could stand out more if you threw in some memorable/infamous scenes.  Jules has his speeches, Butch kills off the sex whackos with the sword, and Vincent has a couple scenes too, dancing, always being on the can when something bad happens, and that suspense filled sequence trying to save Mia.  Find something whacky and cool you could toss into this script.  Michael Madsen will forever be remembered as the psychopathic Mr.  Blonde because of one infamous scene/sequence from a film that's 22 years old.  Try to write a character that an actor will be remembered by for a very long time.  Easier said than done, though, right?  Haha, I'm trying to do it myself.   Take care, Sean.


--Steve

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Mr. Blonde
Posted: March 4th, 2014, 11:50am Report to Moderator
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Steve,

I appreciate the read, but how share you NOT shower this with glowing praise! Lol. I'm kidding. But, I don't really care whether or not you've had something produced, I think everyone's opinions around here are equal, so yours carry just as much weight.

So, in general, it doesn't work? The story, characters, etc. I have been told that before and it's one of those things (as you know from reading) that would be very challenging to change because changing one thing probably affects two or three others. So, the best I can do is try and up the dialogue and interesting character cues (I've been trying to do that in subsequent rewrites, but I've been told that they're just as mediocre as before).

Stakes, urgency, dialogue, more/better character and interesting scenes (biggest challenge of them, because I write in a very non-descript way which doesn't offer itself to those kinds of scenes). I'll definitely see what I can do. But, thank you again and sorry you didn't like it better. =)

-Sean


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Dreamscale
Posted: March 4th, 2014, 9:06pm Report to Moderator
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Interesting...

Seems like my bro, Steverino, in his new SS name, and I do not see eye to eye.  And that's completely cool.  We all like what we like and the reasons why don't really even matter.

But, IMO, on an amateur platform like this (amateur, yes, but understood there many produced wruiters here as well), with so many painfully poorly written and conceived scripts, it always surprises me when well thought out, well written (for the most part) scripts get put down.

Sure, we all know there are many ways to improve this script or really any script.  Steve wants more wild, crazy, memorable scenes or characters. I get that.

But, this is good as is.  No way around that, IMO.  Look at the crap that gets produced and tell me those scripts couldn't and shouldn't have been MUCH better.  Really?

Sean, have you made any changes since 2012?  Is there a new draft available?

Peace, my brotehrs and sisters...  
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Mr. Blonde
Posted: March 5th, 2014, 9:26am Report to Moderator
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Jeff,

That's okay. Steve did echo a lot of things I've heard, even from yourself; character and dialogue issues, plain and simple. Problems are problems, regardless of how they stack up against something else.

It doesn't really bother me. I mean, I'd be really disappointed if somebody found nothing wrong. Just, for example (and I'm not calling you out), when Daniel Botha reviewed it and didn't mention anything wrong with it, it seemed like he liked the script more than I did. I know there're issues, ones I'm always working on trying to fix and there's no such thing as a perfect script.

That's the problem, though. Everyone (up 'til a couple days ago) never really had a negative thing to say in regards to the structure (except that the first time it flashes back, it's a little confusing, which is understandable), but those are issues, problems I need to clear up. It's my job to make things clear, to make them as good as can be. Let's face it, this script isn't anything special. If you were to play this in consecutive order (kind of in the same way as if you did that to Memento), it wouldn't feel nearly as clever, I'm willing to bet. Then again, Memento had good characters and interesting (albeit not great) dialogue. Christmas Story doesn't.

I was working on changes earlier this year, hoping to put it into PAGE. But, I changed my mind. It's not ready. So, yes, I've been making lots of changes, but the new draft isn't available because the script is a mess right now because I'm gutting certain parts to rewrite them from scratch. Long story short, there's one coming eventually, but I'm too focused on trying to finish script in a rough draft form than putting a month into fully rewriting Christmas Story again, especially since I had just rewritten it in January. Marnie had really good notes about what was wrong, but the problem with them was that she told me the exact same thing I had always been hearing; cut down on dialogue, improve dialogue and make the characters stand out more. So, I joked that it was like "Groundhog Day" because it seemed like the last rewrite never happened.

Anyway, I appreciate the words of encouragement, Jeff, but Steve is right. After so many years, this should be better than it is. It needs better character and dialogue and I'm sure that if I could clear those up, the story issues (rather, lack of interesting scenes) would resolve themselves.

-Sean


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Guest
Posted: March 5th, 2014, 4:04pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale

Seems like my bro, Steverino, in his new SS name, and I do not see eye to eye.  And that's completely cool.  We all like what we like and the reasons why don't really even matter.

But, this is good as is.  No way around that, IMO.  Look at the crap that gets produced and tell me those scripts couldn't and shouldn't have been MUCH better.  Really?



Yes it's me, Steverino. haha  

As far as Sean's script goes, it's not bad at all.  I read the entire thing.  Most of the time I don't.  I can see why you're a fan:  there's no camera directions, typos or grammar issues, there's no asides or any of that hoopla.  You got a genre that you like, and I can understand why you like this script.  I had no real major issues with this, it just wasn't my cup of joe.  I don't believe it was perfectly executed.

I'll agree with you about the crap that gets produced.  Would I be mad if Christmas Story was produced?  No way in hell.  In fact, I'd be excited to watch it just to see if the director and the cast elevated the story, because I do see a good story here.  I just didn't like the way Sean went about it.

I also think over the past few years, Jeffro, that you and I have changed, writing wise, story wise, etc.  We've always been good buds off and on, when I leave the board for periods of time and come back, we can talk to each other as if we never stopped, etc. but I just think you and I have different styles and taste now.  It's all gravy, though.

--Steve
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