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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Unproduced Screenplay Discussion    Drama Scripts  ›  The Secret War - 7WC Moderators: bert
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  Author    The Secret War - 7WC  (currently 4649 views)
Don
Posted: May 7th, 2012, 8:33pm Report to Moderator
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So, what are you writing?

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The Secret War by Stewart Wadwell (macduff) - Drama, Historical, Fantasy, War - British and German forces search for a girl who possesses supernatural abilities that could help turn the tide of World War 2. 112 pages - pdf, format


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leitskev
Posted: May 7th, 2012, 9:17pm Report to Moderator
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This was one of my favorites from the OWC. I think I voted for it, in fact, but it seems so long ago. I'm 10 pages into it, Mac, and it's still fine work.

I am taking extensive notes for you, particularly on the dialogue. There are a lot of areas where things can be shortened. That's typical for a first draft. I will email you the PDF with the notes. They are just my amateur opinion, hopefully they help.

If I don't find your email, I'll put on dropbox and post the link here.

Another thing I note is something I've had trouble deciding on in my own work. And that is the use of contractions when it comes to characters that we want to sound foreign. By contraction, I mean 'there's' instead of 'there is'. I forget if contraction is the word. Maybe it's conjunction. You know what I mean, anyway.

You don't use them at all. I assume that's because you want them to sound like they have foreign accents. I'm really not sure what's best, but I would argue it might be better to use some, to reduce the formal sound of things.

My notes will be more extensive for the first act, as I think that's the most critical part of a spec script. After that, I will focus on story, and it make take me a couple of days.

First ten pages are very solid.

I'm not sure if you care about structural elements, such as inciting incident and act turns. I will only mention any of these things if I happen to notice them.
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MacDuff
Posted: May 7th, 2012, 11:24pm Report to Moderator
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Thanks Don!

leitskev - thanks for quickly jumping on this, greatly appreciated.

Ah, yes - contractions. You are quite correct and it was intentional. It may be one of the things that gets altered in the subsequent drafts. You may notice the dialogue flow a little better as the script goes on.

I am interested in any and all comments and I really appreciate you taking the time to go through it and make notes!!

As I don't really send out first drafts, I'm a little nervous on the feedback for this. I usually dedicate the first few drafts to action sequences, pacing and structure. Once I'm happy with those elements, I start working on character development, story layers and then dialogue. I am concerned a little about a few of the characters, but I'll let the readers see what they think.

Again - much appreciate the read.

Stew


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khamanna
Posted: May 8th, 2012, 10:08am Report to Moderator
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Hi Stewart,

I started reading your story and got immediately sucked in. I've read already 20 pages, didn't take notes - want to finish reading to give you overall impression first. So far - I'm very much interested.

SPOILERS
I do have one question which seems like an important one - why Helen didn't do her magic before nazis started the killings, but will be looking for the answer in the pages to come. I did notice she pleaded to her mother - so I think the magic doesn't work all the time perhaps, but let's see. Don't tell me just yet

I'll add further comments to this post here.

I'm almost done - on page 90.
I  liked your first 35 very much. I'm also very fond of the idea for this story.
You posed many questions - the chant of the witches, Anna pleading to her mother instead of getting rid of the soldiers right away, what exactly their plans for her mean. --these are good questions, they added to the plot, I was anxious to get to the answers.
I don't think you answered all of them. THe witches - I know what they were about. I think the witches made it more on the fantasy side and made it less believable. I'd probably consider getting rid of them.
Maybe the Nazis could say something about capturing the others, getting them together and... - I want to know what for. Because even now, I don't clearly understand their plans for her. Probably you have a very good idea for it, but chose not to go into it, thinking that it's clear to all - not to me. Or maybe, I missed it.
on p34 (and actually throughout) I had hard time believing that Ewan will tell someone "I'm on a mission". I think Andrei could learn about it easily if he saw Ewan killing a Nazi soldier.
Ewan also says "I'm a British soldier. I've got a job to do. Secretly". -think you should look for another way to let Andrei know who he was. Maybe someone else sees Ewan killing a german soldier and tells Andrei after Andrei captures Ewan?
on p37 he shares that with Helen.
p40s I don't understand why Ewan is helping Andrei with his rescue mission.

She sounds a bit irrational when wanting to revenge just one man. I don't understand that. And Ewan changes suddenly. He wanted to take her to Britain and defeat Germans and now he wants her not to kill (p82) - that was a bit confusing.

Some of it was a bit easy - Weiss conversing with Ewan (p86 onward)- I don't think things like that happened and even if we can invent those - doesn't seem believable to me.

The good thing is all of it can be fixed. You also can take it many different directions. I'd think that you better try big changes and see how it plays out (but it's your call)- like Helen gets captured. Or maybe Andrei gets captured - he's Ewan's friend now, will Ewan go with the mission, or ask Helen to rescue Andrei.
Captured mother is a good turn for the story, but a bit not exciting (--might be just me!).

I think the beginnings of a great story are there. And I really liked how you got British search for her and fight for her with Nazis.

The double agent is a good twist. Thinking we should start suspecting earlier. And also, the dialog on p95-96 is a bit heavy-handed for me. The thing is Andrei learns everything about Ewan from dialog, so do Helene and Ewan eariler - and I already made a suggestion about it. Just a suggestion though

Well, everything I said just one person's opinion, I did enjoy the read and if you rewrite this and want another, please let me know.

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khamanna  -  May 8th, 2012, 10:18pm
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leitskev
Posted: May 8th, 2012, 10:39am Report to Moderator
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It's a good question, Khamanna. This was how I understood it: Helen is really just learning how to use her power. It's not the kind of thing that could be used to fight yet. And she only is able to call on it when she's desperate.
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Mr.Ripley
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I've read around 10 pgs.

In regards to what khamanna asked, this was one of the many problems I had with this script in the owc. I suggested that Macduff establish Helene's problem early on before the nazis' come. However, Macduff chose to continue to do it. He has his reasons; I respect that. He is overall the writer.

Also, I think you introduced many German characters. Not sure what role they play in but I will continue to read onward.  

Gabe



Just Murdered by Sean Elwood (Zombie Sean) and Gabriel Moronta (Mr. Ripley) - (Dark Comedy, Horror) All is fair in love and war. A hopeless romantic gay man resorts to bloodshed to win the coveted position of Bridesmaid. 99 pages.
https://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-comedy/m-1624410571/
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MacDuff
Posted: May 8th, 2012, 1:48pm Report to Moderator
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Hi all,

Thanks for the quick replies. Yes, there are some issues - I'm hoping the feedback will help determine what changes need to take place.

SPOILERS

Gabe - I did give a lot of thought to opening with Helene, but I didnt like that sequence. There is a conversation later in the script that references this omitted scene.

Again,
Thanks for the feedback!

Stew


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leitskev
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Stew

Got to about page 30 so far. I have extensive suggestions on the PDF I'll send when done. Hope some of them prove useful. I find it worth putting in the time for this script, based on the potential.

Keep in mind as always my opinions are RANK amateur, and use accordingly.

I just ran into a big story issue which will need to be fixed. I'll get to it in a moment.

First, I want to discuss the writing. There are times that it feels pro, including the dialogue, and it's exciting to see that! I read a lot of pro scripts, so when I see that here, I really do get pumped up by it.

But then I do run into areas where things slide back towards what I would describe as competent amateur. I would guess that much of the explanation is that this is first draft. My notes will only involve dialogue and story. Action lines I don't care about. They're generally very good here.

The scenes in Britain were handled particularly well. Those felt pro.

The scenes in Germany need a bit more work IMO. I think we have to always be careful in these stories not to make the Nazis too cartoonish. And I would suggest promoting this sergeant sent to find the girl. Maybe a colonel. I mean, it's been explained to us that this girl is worth more than all the armies in Europe. She's worth sending a colonel to track her down.

The biggest issue pops up at what I will call the end of act one, where Anna is rescued by what appear to be Russian partisans. The problem is this story takes place in 1940. The Germans and Russians were allies at that point. They had signed a pact where they agreed to divide up Poland. It was not until June of 1941 that the Germans surprise attacked the Soviet Union. There would have been no Russian partisans in Poland or in the Soviet Union fighting the Germans at the time.

If you switch the year to 1941, that will cause other problems in your story, such as the Dutch landing of Ewen. That could be easily adjusted. But I'm not to sure about Russians and Poles working together at any time of the war. Russians and Poles have been mortal enemies far longer that Russians and Germans. Many centuries. Even after the Germans invaded the Soviet Union, the Russians oppressed and killed Poles whenever they could.

Also, there is a pretty big country between Russia and Poland, I believe: the Ukraine. At the time, it was part of the Soviet Union, but Ukrainians are not Russian.

I'm not sure where things go since I'm only at page 30. Maybe you could just have it be Polish villagers rescue her? Maybe even Jews who have escaped?

I'm enjoying the story, which is the main thing. Scriptwriting is hard work, and this is a great start for one.
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Reef Dreamer
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Hey Stew (apologies for calling you steven first time around!),


I enjoyed this and it has a nice feel to it, old fashioned in some ways, in the sense it reminded me of films like where eagles dare, a lot.

SPOILERS

My notes as i went along are below, nothing good detailed. I have to say for a first draft it is generally sound work.

Like Kevin above i have raised some date issues but i'm sure its nothing that could be adjusted. Standing back i would raise a couple of issues;

1] he finds her too easily and without any information that we know of
2] the twist in act 3 is fine but in some ways lacks some realism. I think this could be easily adjusted.
3] Ewans character varies. From decent chap to almost needless killer - on balance i would tone him down and make his rescue of her personal, add emotion. why does he do what he does?
4] we see nothing of the British Majors until the end. Films like "eagles dare"  have scenes back in the command centre and it is effective for tension between mission, belief in the character (maybe they could express doubts about his ability to escape)

good effort

cheers

bill


The Secret War - feedback
Before starting i accept this is a first draft. I wouldn't let a soul near one of my first drafts so i respect this situation.
P1 black-gloved hands - i thought they were someones else�s at first Black eyes - ? what are these
P2 how did oscar feel/react after two were shot?
Small point - had they started to gather jews in 1940?
P7 mountain castle - i think this would be better with a name, even if made up. along with the following scene i immediately think of where eagles dare - the castle the main room with table etc. Not saying thats bad, just brings back a memory/comparison.
P8 needle in his arm? Hand? needs full stop as well.
Three orphans on one page ! dont show jeff!
P10 age of Mj Barnes?
P11 after jesus, there seems a great opportunity for a flippant line, �No, but close.� Majors - wonder whether it is clearer using barnes and Smith rather than major in the character slugs?
P12 - dialogue again similar to opening scene (in office ) of eagles dare - just saying, plus it has a major smith!
P13 slug already states command centre
Setting - i accept this is a military compound but just wondered if you could have the reval somewhere unusual, like a church crypt
deep underground - then a fire place roars? also - could it be argued that deep underground could affect their ability to connect. probably not, just thinking out loud.
P14 evil purposes - perhaps a better phrase could be used?
P15 - perhaps the girls could offer ideas of what the girl does, what they feel, give us a tone, make him wonder what he will face.
At this point i�m just reflecting on who�s story this is. This seems to be a catalyst moment so i assume the story is as much about Ewan as helene. time will tell.
P17 - take her to dungeons? Maybe �take her away� or �lock her up�
P17 �Win the war� - perhaps a more sinister suggestive description??
P21 Car - i feel as there needs to be a pass word or some check on who ewan is
P23 �the british are aware� wonder how he knows this
P24 - character titles German Jeep Soldier and passenger , seem a bit long
P28 just a thought but if this is so important why didn't they fly him to poland or switzerland rather than running the risk through france?
P29 parachuting into forest is extremely risky as the SAS will tell you - just saying
P30 do we need to know how he finds this house/secret place - ie the intelligence he was given.
p31 how would he know to take the photo of anna?
p34 british ID when behind lines?
P36 i promise i wont go on about orphans but bottom of p36 you could eliminate the extra line by using �he sense someone behind.� (drop him)
P37 nice line - re tug
P38 reference is made to what they do to them in the camps - in 1940?
P39 bottom line - i think instructions or orders are better than funding
P40 no needs to trail off after Hilter i think
P44 i think OC is off camera and more used for television - i think? OS would normally be used, until someone corrects me of course
P45 is it meant to be �Ok, then we need to bury our friends� if not do you need the then? P48 wasn�t wholly sure about vogel going off on one
p54 nice scene with razor blade
p58 Ewan is obviously a good solider and brave etc but he also comes across as a decent bloke so the various kills slightly jar. Yes, he kills if attacked but the kills into the tower maybe unnecessary unless he is sold as a darker character
P59 broadsword to dannyboy...aka...greyfox to foxhole. ilke that kind of stuff
Maybe with the communications tower he could be more subtle, sneak in, drug them ?? so no fire or killing. Read next page ,see why you did that.
The rebel soldier finding them like that seemed a bit easy
P66-67 decent scene with combinations of tension and surprises
P68 - Ursula - she obviously has decent powers which makes me wonder quite why she is at the mercy of the germans. i feel her power is almost too much
P75 nice reversal girl going dark - again the clash with ewan decent character is required so i refer back to his killings at the tower
P80 - you have taken nearly three pages to make himmler put pressure on weiss - i think they could be quicker?
P80 helene dark side - you maybe about to use this but i wonder about her taking her anger out on a rebel that mucks up rather than a german
P84 nice, a twist with ewan which play will this play out
P95 the switch by Ewan having got the rebels into the castle in the dungeon just feels a bit far fetched. could he not have spared them and agreed for them to be waiting int he shadows outside, ready for his signal?
p102 not sure why weiss would call himmler - ok see that later
p105 nice touch with the clairvoyant cavalry appearing
p110 i like the end with her, decent way out


My scripts  HERE

The Elevator Most Belonging To Alice - Semi Final Bluecat, Runner Up Nashville
Inner Journey - Page Awards Finalist - Bluecat semi final
Grieving Spell - winner - London Film Awards.  Third - Honolulu
Ultimate Weapon - Fresh Voices - second place
IMDb link... http://www.imdb.com/name/nm7062725/?ref_=tt_ov_wr

Revision History (1 edits)
Reef Dreamer  -  May 10th, 2012, 12:47pm
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MacDuff
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Quoted from leitskev


The biggest issue pops up at what I will call the end of act one, where Anna is rescued by what appear to be Russian partisans. The problem is this story takes place in 1940. The Germans and Russians were allies at that point. They had signed a pact where they agreed to divide up Poland. It was not until June of 1941 that the Germans surprise attacked the Soviet Union. There would have been no Russian partisans in Poland or in the Soviet Union fighting the Germans at the time.

If you switch the year to 1941, that will cause other problems in your story, such as the Dutch landing of Ewen. That could be easily adjusted. But I'm not to sure about Russians and Poles working together at any time of the war. Russians and Poles have been mortal enemies far longer that Russians and Germans. Many centuries. Even after the Germans invaded the Soviet Union, the Russians oppressed and killed Poles whenever they could.

Also, there is a pretty big country between Russia and Poland, I believe: the Ukraine. At the time, it was part of the Soviet Union, but Ukrainians are not Russian.

I'm not sure where things go since I'm only at page 30. Maybe you could just have it be Polish villagers rescue her? Maybe even Jews who have escaped?

I'm enjoying the story, which is the main thing. Scriptwriting is hard work, and this is a great start for one.


Hey Kev (it's Kev, right?),

Thank you so much. This is a very big oversight on my behalf and you are entirely right. There would be no such Russian partisan presence in Poland.  Switching the dates do change things - especially the travel and scenes within Holland - I think that was my original concern (as I needed Ewan to be able to get to Switzerland, etc).

I think you are right - the easiest solution would be to change them to displaced Polish villagers. Infact, I really like the idea of making them Jewish, it sort of fits with the thematic elements with Helene. I like it.

Cheers,
Stew


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VaultMan
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Quoted from leitskev

The biggest issue pops up at what I will call the end of act one, where Anna is rescued by what appear to be Russian partisans. The problem is this story takes place in 1940. The Germans and Russians were allies at that point. They had signed a pact where they agreed to divide up Poland. It was not until June of 1941 that the Germans surprise attacked the Soviet Union. There would have been no Russian partisans in Poland or in the Soviet Union fighting the Germans at the time.


First, Germans and Soviets were never allies. The German-Soviet non-aggression treaty you are referring to was, for the most part, a standard treaty that many countries had with Germany. The countries that had that pact included Poland, Latvia, Great Britain, Denmark, Estonia, etc. All were attacked later on. Were they German allies?

And second, why wouldn't Russians be in Poland in 1940? It's like saying that Canadians can't be in the US because US isn't a part of Canada. There's no problem here, it makes perfect sense.


Quoted from MacDuff

This is a very big oversight on my behalf


No oversight, in my opinion.


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khamanna
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I added more notes to the earlier post.
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leitskev
Posted: May 8th, 2012, 11:30pm Report to Moderator
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Vaultman, ahh, no.

The German-Soviet treaty made them allies of a sort. Friends? No. But the deal was more than non-aggression. The Russians were required to ship substantial amounts of resources, food and raw materials, to the Germans every month. In fact, even after Stalin was warned by spies that the Germans were planning an attack, he insisted on continuing the shipments to Germany in hopes of avoiding an attack. The Soviets had purged much of their officer corp, and were not ready for war.

Standard agreement? Were there any other countries that worked out a deal to divide Eastern Europe? No. The Soviets not only received part of Poland, but the Baltic states as well. Economic cooperation, secret deals to support each others territorial ambitions...that makes them allies.

I didn't say there would not be Russians in Poland. I said there would not be Russian partisans. You know, groups of armed militia fighting the invaders/occupiers. And there certainly would not be.

To my knowledge, there are no Canadian partisans fighting in the US.  Except during hockey season!

edit: from Wikipedia

The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact is commonly referred to under a number of names in addition to the official one and the one bearing the names of the foreign ministers. It is also known as the Nazi–Soviet Pact, Hitler–Stalin Pact, German–Soviet Non-aggression Pact and sometimes the Nazi–Soviet Alliance.

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leitskev  -  May 8th, 2012, 11:57pm
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leitskev
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Stew

I think the Jewish partisan angle could work quite well. Did such groups exist at that time in Poland? My guess is probably not. But that doesn't matter, because it's very plausible. So if it fits the story, yeah, I like it!

I'm a rank amateur when it comes to scripts and films. History is another matter. Glad I could help.
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Quoted from leitskev
The Russians were required to ship substantial amounts of resources, food and raw materials, to the Germans every month.

In exchange, they received German machine tools used to produce shells that were somewhat superior to what Soviets could produce themselves. That's more like trading. Everyone traded with Nazis.

Quoted from leitskev
In fact, even after Stalin was warned by spies that the Germans were planning an attack, he insisted on continuing the shipments to Germany in hopes of avoiding an attack.

He received warnings almost every day, every time showing a new date. Naturally, when a real date popped up, it was very difficult to tell whether it's the real one. There is evidence suggesting that the Soviets waited for the attack. It wasn't a surprise.


Quoted from leitskev

Standard agreement? Were there any other countries that worked out a deal to divide Eastern Europe? No. The Soviets not only received part of Poland, but the Baltic states as well. Economic cooperation, secret deals to support each others territorial ambitions...that makes them allies.

For example, Poland had a non-aggression pact with Germany and when Germany invaded the Czech Republic, Poland occupied the Cieszyn Silesia part of it. So Poland itself was not quite a lamb it tries to look like.

This is not to say that the Soviets tried to ally with Great Britain, France, Poland and other countries of the future anti-Nazi coalition, before signing any treaties with Germany. All their attempts faced s brick wall: this is too radical, this is too early. From everyone, including Poland.

And by the way, are you suggesting that these Polish should have been given to Nazis? That they would have been better off under SS battalions?


Quoted from leitskev

I didn't say there would not be Russians in Poland. I said there would not be Russian partisans. You know, groups of armed militia fighting the invaders/occupiers. And there certainly would not be.

There is only one Russian in the screenplay, from what I've read so far (approx page 60). A Russian who happened to be in a Nazi occupied part of Poland. What should he do? Hide in a basement or join the Polish partisans? Absolutely reasonable and logical, in my opinion. He could be a Russian citizen of Poland. There's a reason why I defend his character so much: I think there could be a lot of tension between him and Ewan due to the language barrier. I wrote more on that in my notes to the author, but I haven't finished them all yet.

Quoted from leitskev

edit: from Wikipedia

Wikipedia as a source? Seriously? It is quite biased, for understandable reasons.

Dear Moderators, we have digressed from the script itself, but only a bit. Please, don't delete this, since it has to do with the reality of a certain character being where he is

leitskev, this is an interesting topic for discussion, but this probably isn't the right place to talk about it. You could PM me, though, if you want to continue the discussion (unless it has to do with the script, then posting here would be more appropriate and would help the author).


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leitskev
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Vault man

I don't wish to have a historical debate in a script's thread. I'll respond once here since it does potentially impact the development of the story.

Wikipedia was not the source for anything I said. Thus the "edit". After I posted, I went to wiki and glanced at it.

I don't really have time begin new research on a subject I am familiar with anyway. There is really no question Stalin was taken by surprise, despite numerous warnings. The Russian military was clearly caught off guard. Warnings were ignored or not believed. To suggest otherwise is to cut completely against the grain of conventional historical thought.

People might quibble over whether it was an "alliance" or not, and parse the meaning of alliance. But the world at the time viewed this as an alliance. Even American communist newspapers, and newspapers secretly run by Stalinists, suddenly became more pro-German, against US involvement in the war.

What purpose does Wiki have in making the "alliance" up? What bias does it serve? The pro-Ribbentrop support club? The quote is even footnoted.

But as far as Stew's story, the main issue is why would there be a Russian partisan in Poland? One can always concoct a reason. For example, he's married to a Polish girl. But to muddy waters this way would be a poor choice. My impression was that there was more than one Russian partisan, but I could have been mistaken in that. Certainly, the Russian is prominent, which would be unusual. And the writer has already admitted this was a mistake on his part. He clearly wrote this with the idea in mind that the Russians were then at war with Germany. The main purpose of my post was to point out that they were not. They were in an alliance at the time, though an uncomfortable one and a temporary one.

Consider the fact that Russia was at war with Poland. They had invaded from the east, part of their deal with the Nazis. And the Russians and Poles had been enemies for a thousand years. At one time, it was the Poles who terrorized Russia with invasions. In fact, even in the struggle after the Lenin Bolshevik takeover of Russia, a large Polish army invaded. It's inconceivable that a partisan Polish militia would accept a Russian soldier within their number, let alone as their leader. Inconceivable.

In a sense, one can go ahead in a story and put anyone with those partisans. You might choose to place an American or a an Englishman. But these can't be just random choices on the part of a writer. Having an American there would be very unusual, which means it would have to be a conscious choice of the writer and play some critical part in the story.

Vault, I love historical discussion. The issue is time, however. These are pretty much settled matters of history, but I am open to unsettling any matter for the sake of discussion. I am open to alternative views. The problem is time. I have work to do, and I want to finish these scripts in this 7WC as well. In my reviews, I always make clear that I am an amateur writer. One of the reasons is because I don't sugar coat. I give me thoughts straight, because I think that helps the writer the most. I expect the same on my work. But I know this kind of thing occasionally rubs someone the wrong way, provokes a reaction. "Who the heck is this guy?" I choose to risk that, because I'm trying to help. Stew will no doubt apply the same honest approach to my own material. He knows I'm a fan of this story, and that's why I'm willing to put in the time.

Best regards
Kevin
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bert
Posted: May 9th, 2012, 12:31pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from VaultMan
Dear Moderators, we have digressed from the script itself, but only a bit. Please, don't delete this, since it has to do with the reality of a certain character being where he is


Naw...you guys are good.  And if Stew is reading all of this with an eye towards story, there may even be something valuable to be taken away.

And if memory serves, doesn't Kev have a history degree from somewhere?  Of course, that does not preclude him spouting utter B.S. -- I am certainly no expert -- but at least it lends him a little extra cred in these matters.  Sounds like you guys are wrapping it up yourselves, anyway.

But this type of discourse is hardly the stuff that gets deleted.  Just saying.  And don't call me "dear" -- I am nothing of the sort haha.


Hey, it's my tiny, little IMDb!
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leitskev
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I do have a history degree, but to be fair, that adds little weight to what I'm saying on this subject. My specialization was 17th and 18th century European intellectual history. Ewww. No one wants to see any of that! Including me!

The points I made were just to help Stew. They are easily verified, and Stew himself recognized the mistake as soon as it was pointed out. The issue was partisan Russian fighters in 1940 Poland, and it would be extremely unusual to find them there. Pretty close to impossible.

BTW, Stew's got a very nice script going here. Very talented guy. I'd be proud to do half as well with a script.
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VaultMan
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I've sent my notes in a PDF, if the email will malfunction or something, please tell, I'll send them again.


Quoted from bert

And don't call me "dear" -- I am nothing of the sort haha.





Quoted from leitskev
The issue was partisan Russian fighters in 1940 Poland, and it would be extremely unusual to find them there. Pretty close to impossible.


I don't know what else I can add to what I have already said on this matter. Thousands of Russians lived in Poland in 1930's, many of them in the Nazi occupied territories, being Polish citizens. Why they can't be partisans? Why one of them can't be a small partisan group leader? Is it a national thing, "if you're not Polish -- don't fight?"

Having changing this character to a Jew or something wouldn't be much out of the ordinary. It's a fine choice, but we're aiming above fine, right? It's like having a criminal character being forgiven by someone - if we make him being forgiven by some random priest, it's nothing out of the ordinary, we get it - yeah, OK, priests forgive people all the time. But if we make him being forgiven by his victim's relative that's a whole different question. A poor analogy, I know. What I'm saying is, if I see Andrei, I think "Hm, interesting." If I see a Jew in his place, I think, "Oh, OK, moving on."


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MacDuff
Posted: May 9th, 2012, 1:22pm Report to Moderator
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Hi everyone,

I have no problems with the history discussion - I've been interested in modern history anyways, so it's no problem. The insightful discussion is also helpful to me too. Even though the story contains some 'fantastical' elements - I'm still trying to place the story amidst true events.

Thanks for the positive comments, Kevin.

Cheers,
Stew


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leitskev
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Vaultman, you do understand, and I have said so above, that the Russians invaded Poland with Germany, right? I mean, I suppose there could be German partisans fighting alongside the Poles too, but it would be a little strange, wouldn't it?

If the writer chooses to do something unusual, like place a Russian partisan in a country that Russia is at war with, fighting a country Russian has joined with, it has to be a choice that is filled with meaning for the story. Because to anyone that knows the history, it will draw attention away from the main story. Which might be ok, if this is going to become a central part of the story.

Stew:  In the old balance of power games played by European powers for centuries, it was not unusual for allies and enemies to switch and change, based on new treaties. The Russians and Poles had been enemies for a thousand years. The Russians and Germans had been allies, for example the Napoleonic Wars, and enemies, such as WWI. It was expected they would soon fight again, as they were the main powers in the region.

In a shocking development, the Russians signed a deal of cooperation with the Nazis. A series of deals, actually. The gist of it was they agreed to a 10 year peace, and agreed to divide up Eastern Europe. The biggest target, and relevant here, was Poland. The Germans invaded from the west, did most of the work, but the Russians came from the east, and absorbed the parts of Poland agreed to with the Germans. This was the final coup that really ended Polish resistance.

So you can imagine how most Poles felt about the Russians in 1940. If for some reason there was a Russian fighting with the Polish partisans, he would be the quietest guy in the bunch. Not the leader.

If you're going to keep a Russian partisan, I think you have to keep all this in mind.
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VaultMan
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Quoted from leitskev
Vaultman, you do understand, and I have said so above, that the Russians invaded Poland with Germany, right? I mean, I suppose there could be German partisans fighting alongside the Poles too, but it would be a little strange, wouldn't it?

By the time the Soviets entered Poland, Polish government had long fled. There was no law in the territories that became part of the Soviet Union. The choice was, either these lands go to Nazis, or they go to Soviets. I understand that you see no difference here, but it was there, and was quite significant. If Russians that stayed in Nazi part of Poland were genocided and treated like animals and untermenschen alongside with all the others, why wouldn't they fight? It makes no sense to bring up German partisans here.

Quoted from leitskev

If the writer chooses to do something unusual, like place a Russian partisan in a country that Russia is at war with, fighting a country Russian has joined with, it has to be a choice that is filled with meaning for the story.


If my memory serves me well, there were cases of Germans (very, very few, but they were, especially in the first days of the German invasion into the USSR) fighting alongside with Soviets against Nazis. I can remember at least one case of this, and I won't be much surprised if there were more. If that crazy alliance is possible, then Russian families, for many generations living in Poland, trapped on the Nazi part of it, fighting alongside their Polish brothers, makes even more sense than Germans fighting alongside with Soviets.

Quoted from leitskev

The biggest target, and relevant here, was Poland. The Germans invaded from the west, did most of the work, but the Russians came from the east, and absorbed the parts of Poland agreed to with the Germans. This was the final coup that really ended Polish resistance.


I asked you before, and you chose to ignore it. I will try again: are you saying that those territories had to be given to Nazis? Would the SS battalions do better in those eastern Polish territories? And to add to that, would the Polish resistance be able to fight successfully, without any official Polish government, against Nazis on its own (meaning, without Soviet involvement)?

Quoted from leitskev

So you can imagine how most Poles felt about the Russians in 1940.

About half of them (the ones in the east) probably knew what is going with their Polish brothers, not to say about Jews and gypsies on the other side.


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leitskev
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Quoted Text
I asked you before, and you chose to ignore it. I will try again: are you saying that those territories had to be given to Nazis? Would the SS battalions do better in those eastern Polish territories? And to add to that, would the Polish resistance be able to fight successfully, without any official Polish government, against Nazis on its own (meaning, without Soviet involvement)?


I'm not sure what I ignored. Actually, I'm not even sure what this question means.

I am going on memory, not any current research. I don't have time, I'm afraid. The Polish government abandoned ship early enough, but there were still active Polish armies which survived by moving east. There were discussions of regrouping and continuing resistance. And there was still a government in exile, with the army if I remember correct. When the Russians invaded from the east, that ended all discussion of regrouping and resisting with the sizable remaining army. And the exiled government moved to London for the duration. Where they were betrayed by Stalin and forced to suffer behind the Iron Curtain until Welesa.

I'm not sure I can answer what I don't understand as far as the question. The Nazis and Russians worked out what territories would be theirs. The Soviets took the Baltic states and part of Poland. The Germans got  most of Poland. There may have been an understanding about the Slavic states in eastern Europe such as Yugoslavia, where they had competed, but I'm not sure about that.

SS battalions in eastern Poland: not sure what you mean. The issue was whether the Germans would have to fight the Russians in eastern Poland. That's why the Nazis worked out the alliance. So they would not have to.

Partisans generally don't work under a government. If there is a government in exile, they may cooperate, and usually do. But the very idea of a partisan is that they fight locally within a conquered territory. An independent command.
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VaultMan
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Quoted from leitskev

I'm not sure what I ignored. Actually, I'm not even sure what this question means.


It seems to me like you are equating the German attack on Poland and the Soviet taking of Polish east. The bottom line is: if the Soviets didn't have that treaty and Germans didn't give the east of Poland to them, the Nazis would have taken it themselves, bringing the same hell they brought to western Poland to all of it. Therefore, Soviets receiving part of Poland was, in fact, a blessing to those who lived in the east. Because the alternative was Nazis.

Quoted from leitskev

And the exiled government moved to London for the duration. Where they were betrayed by Stalin and forced to suffer behind the Iron Curtain until Welesa.

This is a bit confusing. Who was betrayed by Stalin? The Polish government that abandoned their country in the time of troubles? And they were betrayed by Stalin in London? And they suffered in London behind the Iron Curtain that was "invented" by Churchill?


Quoted from leitskev
SS battalions in eastern Poland: not sure what you mean. The issue was whether the Germans would have to fight the Russians in eastern Poland. That's why the Nazis worked out the alliance. So they would not have to.

If eastern Poland didn't become Soviet territory, it would have become German territory. With all the consequences to the population. That's what I was saying.


Quoted from leitskev
Partisans generally don't work under a government. If there is a government in exile, they may cooperate, and usually do. But the very idea of a partisan is that they fight locally within a conquered territory. An independent command.

I wasn't talking about partisans there, sorry for the confusion. You said that the final coup that ended the Polish resistance, meaning the army, as far as I understood, and not the partisans, was Soviets absorbing east of Poland. What I was asking was, would that official resistance, the remains of the army, be able to successfully oppose Nazis if the Soviets didn't attack them in the back?


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leitskev
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I'm not sure how I want to approach this. I opened this last post with the intention of negotiating my own peace: the Treaty Of Kev/Vaultman. And I intended to try and make the first gesture. Perhaps I still can. We'll see how it goes.

Because I forgot, though. In my last post, I laid a trap. A bear trap.

I have been frankly surprised by this whole discussion from the start. The things I said were pretty much accepted history. That doesn't mean they're true. Accepted history is turned on its head once in a while.

But when you took on this debate, from the first post, I almost sensed...anger. And I couldn't really understand the source of it. At first I blamed myself. I know I rub people the wrong way in here, no matter how hard I sometimes try. So I figured it must be me, and that's what forced you into arguing a rather unusual position.

But the more I thought about it, that didn't seem to be it. You haven't been here long enough to hate me yet!

So it had to be something in the historical stuff I was alluding to. And you seemed to be taking it personally. There were only two things I could think of that might cause that when discussing the German-Soviet treaty. Either you were Russian, or you are...naw, can't be. Well maybe. We'll get to it soon.

Let's consider the first. That you might be Russian. Well, I respect the Russian people. I don't think anything anti-Russian was stated. And I don't think the treaty with Germany reflects too poorly on the Russians. It reflects more on Stalin. The Russians had little control over that.

So could it be...? Are you a communist? Wow, I haven't met a communist since college. And they weren't REAL communists. They were just spoiled kids looking for a cause. Now they are Occupiers.

But a real live honest to good communist! That would be neat. Is that what we're talking about here? Is that why you are so defensive of the Soviets?

Back to the discussion. Yes, the Germans could have taken all of Poland. And did in 1942 under Barbarosa when they attacked the Soviets. But this is all besides the point. The Polish people did not know that was going to happen in 1940. All they knew was that the Russians had invaded. And, I'm sorry, but they invaded in a cowardly way. They waited until the Germans took the brunt. I suppose cowardly could also be called devious and clever. Either way you prefer, I promise you, the Poles were not happy about it. You would not want to be caught by yourself near a Polish village speaking Russian in 1940.

Chruchill coined the phrase Iron Curtain, yes. After the war. But the curtain itself came down long before. The English tried and tried to help the Poles. They felt obligated, because they went to war in the first place for that reason. They achieved several promises out of Stalin that the Polish government in London would be given a say. That there would be elections. Churchill even flew out to Moscow to negotiate that very thing. The problem was, Stalin was lying. The Brits new he almost certainly was. There was nothing they could do. The Soviet Army was already the most powerful in the world. So when the terrible oppression that WAS Stalinism and IS Communism came down on the Poles, the world could do nothing but watch.

A reign of terror descended on that part of the world that lasted a half a century. Communists might tell otherwise. Believe them at your peril.

And the wave of freedom that finally freed Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union began in...Poland.

Could the Poles have held out in 1939 if the Russians had not advanced? No, though they were game for trying, and that's part of the record; and that would have tied up the Germans, used up resources that were later used in France.

The question is this: would the Germans have attacked Poland if they new the Russians, along with the English and French, would have backed the Poles?

I don't know the answer, and I'd love to see a historian answer that question. It's not as obvious as it seems. We look now at how the Germans attacked the Soviets anyway in 1941. But that was different. Because France was cooked by then. The thing that Germany needed to avoid was a two front war. They had feared it for a hundred years, and it proved to be their undoing in WWI. If the Russians had joined the allies in protecting Poland, I feel confident Hitler would not have attacked Poland. German strategy depended on knocking Poland out in a few weeks, before the Allies could mobilize, before the Brits could move troops to the continent. The treaty allowed them to do that. They took out Poland, then immediately transported most of the troops to the French and Belgian border.

But they could not have done that if Russian armies were advancing on them. And Polish troops would have stayed in the game. They actually had quite sizable armies remaining in the field.

Look history is...history. It's in the past. There is no denying what the Soviets did to Poland was terrible. Both in 1939 and after the war. And if Stalin was not evil, there's no such thing as evil. But it's water under the bridge. Like I said before, historically, back in the middle ages, the Poles were powerful and invaded and enserfed the Russians over and over. It's time for new history. A fresh start. Bygones be bygones.

As long as it's without communism. Humanity should not have to keep making that mistake.
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VaultMan
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Quoted from leitskev

Because I forgot, though. In my last post, I laid a trap. A bear trap.

Was there a need for that? You could have just asked

Quoted from leitskev

I have been frankly surprised by this whole discussion from the start. The things I said were pretty much accepted history. That doesn't mean they're true. Accepted history is turned on its head once in a while.

You were partly right in your "suspicions." I am Russian. I don't live in Russia. No, not a communist, too. The reason I got a bit emotional is, I hear most of those facts you listed on a daily basis from quite educated people. I understand that this is mainstream, conventional thought. I presented my reasons for why these things are not true. Simple reasons that are often overlooked.

Quoted from leitskev

And I don't think the treaty with Germany reflects too poorly on the Russians. It reflects more on Stalin. The Russians had little control over that.

The treaty was a normal part of the politics of that time. The two years of time that were won by this treaty are the reason Nazism was defeated.

Quoted from leitskev

And, I'm sorry, but they invaded in a cowardly way. They waited until the Germans took the brunt. I suppose cowardly could also be called devious and clever. Either way you prefer, I promise you, the Poles were not happy about it.

The Polish elites have fled. The Polish army will be destroyed in a matter of days and the people of the territories not yet German soon will be become theirs. It's not coward or clever, it's normal - why, in the world, give these territories to Nazis? And if they attacked at the same time as Nazis, that would be more noble?

Quoted from leitskev

The English tried and tried to help the Poles. They felt obligated, because they went to war in the first place for that reason.

No, they didn't. They liked to talk a lot, though. Phoney War, that's what it was later called, right? For those several weeks Germans were in Poland neither French nor British did a damn thing, even though they declared the war to Germany. And they could have defeated Germany in those days, as some astonished German generals later recalled. When Polish army asked them to bomb Germans, they first received an answer from the French that they will, then that they do. But they didn't.

Quoted from leitskev

A reign of terror descended on that part of the world that lasted a half a century. Communists might tell otherwise. Believe them at your peril.

I don't need to "believe." My family lived in Poland for quite some years out of that half a century. I don't know what to add here.

Quoted from leitskev

The thing that Germany needed to avoid was a two front war. They had feared it for a hundred years, and it proved to be their undoing in WWI. If the Russians had joined the allies in protecting Poland, I feel confident Hitler would not have attacked Poland.

This is true. They feared a two front war and were terrified when Brits and French declared the war. And were awed when nothing followed later on.

And I must correct you: not "If the Russians had joined the allies in protecting Poland," but "If the allies agreed to join Russia and convince Poland that it needs protection." Britain and France refused making an alliance when the Soviets proposed one in mid-April 1939. They wanted Soviet help in case of German attack, but they didn't want to sign anything significant that would bind them to help the Soviets. But that's normal politics. The thing that astonishes me the most is that Poland itself refused Soviet help, many times in 1939. It thought of itself as a barrier that protected Europe from communism.

And how could the Soviets go to war with Germany without having any common border with them? Poland refused to let them through their land. And if the war started in this case, Soviets would have to passively wait until Germany crushes Poland and only then engage in combat. How reasonable is that? If Poland allowed them, they would have been able to oppose the Germans alongside Polish armies. But Polish were too stubborn. How were they supposed to act? Help Polish out against their will?

Quoted from leitskev

But it's water under the bridge. Like I said before, historically, back in the middle ages, the Poles were powerful and invaded and enserfed the Russians over and over. It's time for new history. A fresh start. Bygones be bygones.

It is a mistake to say so. History can be perverted in any way, and then just add: bygones are bygones, why do you bother? It's the past, anyway.

Please, don't get me wrong: my goal is not to prove that you are wrong. I do understand I am taking your time. We can stop this any time you want. I, personally, don't see any reason to argue here if you will think that I am saying this because it is personal and only because of my nationality. I would have said the same things if I was anything other.


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leitskev
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Good morning, Vault.

I agree with much of your latest post. And I'm glad to learn of your first hand and family related accounts from that part of the world. If only I could visit and hear them first hand! I would enjoy your opinions.

I agree that it's a mistake to think the water is truly under the bridge. When it comes to these things, it never is. Memories are long, lasting beyond generations, and in this case, many of the witnesses to that history are still alive. I made this suggestion  of bygones being bygones as a conciliatory gesture. I would rather have peace with you than war.

I am grateful that you at last recognize that my presentation of the historical facts is indeed how history has recorded things. As I said, the recording of history sometimes changes as new facts or arguments come to light. But the things I have been saying are what is conventionally thought to have happened. I welcome to hear your alternative version, but it is important that you recognize that it is in fact alternative. You need to recognize that because this is a thread for someone's script, and he should know that some of your suggestions are unconventional.

The Soviet Invasion of Poland: I don't think you are really suggesting this was noble, or done for the Poles. The Russians and the Germans had been gobbling up Poland for two hundred years. This was only the latest effort at that. Whether the Nazis would have taken the eastern territories is irrelevant to assessing the motivations of the Soviets. And I'm quite confident in how the Poles felt about it.

the Soviet/Nazi Treaty: did those two years result in the Nazi defeat? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Certainly the Russians bore the brunt of the burden of that war. But let's not impart some nobility on that treaty through the magic of hindsight. The Germans were not that strong in 1939. Their armaments were not ready. They went to war anyway. The Soviets were vulnerable because of Stalin's paranoid officer purges, which decimated the Soviet armies. And yes, the Soviets and the Allies had been negotiating. And yes, the Poles did refuse to allow Russian armies onto their territory. Very understandable, given the history, and knowing what we now know came with Russian occupation later.

The treaty was purely a chance for the Russians to expand their territory and influence. The Soviets were very expansionist at the time, as the Fins could tell you. You could take the position that this was business as it had been for centuries in Europe, as nations played their game of empire. But there was no higher or noble cause involved.

When I said the English tried to help the Poles, I was talking about efforts to get Stalin to agree to let the Poles determine their own future after the war. The Brits were powerless to land armies in Poland. That would have been suicide, at any time. The British land forces were tiny compared to German or Russian forces, and the distance was too far to support them. The only power they had was diplomacy. And Stalin was a snake, so there was not much to be done. But they did try.

This idea that the Soviets invaded Poland in 1940 to either protect the Poles, or as an advance step toward thwarting the Germans...come on, Vault. That's not gonna stand, if that's your position. It's just not gonna stand. It's really hard to avoid the determination that you are twisting historical facts to avoid conclusions you are uncomfortable with. The Russian presence in that part of the world was not positive. It was hardly better than the Nazis, if at all. I'm not knocking the Russian people. Communism and Left Wing extremism is the problem. Notions of central planning, not just of the economy, but of society itself were grafted onto the 19th Century impetus of nationalistic empire, and the result was brutal oppression.

No doubt, as the Soviet occupation left behind Russian families in the former parts of its empire, it can be very uncomfortable for them. I don't have an answer to that problem. Certainly the solution has to lie in an honest reckoning of the history, and not one which is designed to avoid discomfort of the former occupiers. Whatever the case, I hope things are worked out peacefully.
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VaultMan
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Quoted from leitskev
I welcome to hear your alternative version, but it is important that you recognize that it is in fact alternative. You need to recognize that because this is a thread for someone's script, and he should know that some of your suggestions are unconventional.

I didn't make this version up. Conventionality is set by the dominating ideology. The one that dominates now is attempting to equate Soviet communism and Nazism, after which rehabilitate the latter. This is why the version I am presenting is called alternative, not because it is far from true or is speculative. You almost blamed me for speaking from a communist position. The thing is, I'm not the one here who's arguments are influenced by ideology.


Quoted from leitskev
Whether the Nazis would have taken the eastern territories is irrelevant to assessing the motivations of the Soviets.

It isn't? Really, why would Soviets care if Germans, a year or two before a new war, will gain some more territories, some more people. The Germans were stopped for the first time 70km before Moscow. That is less than the Polish territory that went to the Soviets, if I'm not mistaken. Without it, Moscow would have been lost. Why would we think of this as of an irrelevant fact?


Quoted from leitskev

And yes, the Poles did refuse to allow Russian armies onto their territory. Very understandable, given the history, and knowing what we now know came with Russian occupation later.

Very wise and understandable. Especially considering the fact how close the Poles and Nazis were, occupying certain countries' territories together. I am not claiming anything right now, but I wouldn't be surprised if Poles were dreaming of going east together with their Nazi friends. And anyway, being occupied by their friends, the Nazis, is much better that allowing Soviets fight for them along with Brits and French, isn't it?


Quoted from leitskev
The Soviets were very expansionist at the time, as the Fins could tell you.

The friends of Nazis, the Fins, could tell us a lot. They could, for example, tell that their soldiers wounded several and killed at least one Soviet border guard. They could also tell that they had blue swastikas painted on the wings of their planes in 1940 and helped Nazis besiege Leningrad later on, killing a million people there. Which, of course, is understandable and didn't mean anything. Did it?

The expansionists, by the way, were exactly the people that were purged in 1937-1938. They were the people that saw Russia as firewood for the world revolution. Stalin stopped that.


Quoted from leitskev
This idea that the Soviets invaded Poland in 1940 to either protect the Poles, or as an advance step toward thwarting the Germans...come on, Vault. That's not gonna stand, if that's your position. It's just not gonna stand. It's really hard to avoid the determination that you are twisting historical facts to avoid conclusions you are uncomfortable with.

They did invade their part of Poland as an advance step. Why is that such a surprise for you? You do know that strategic decisions tend to get made in politics. And if the Soviets realize that Germans will occupy certain countries to use them as a springboard for attack in a matter of a dozen or two months, it is understandable that they want to take the lead, a first step of which was to try to make an alliance with the West. What should they do when the alliance doesn't work out (thank you, Poland)? Say screw it, let them have their Poland? The actions of the Soviet side are very sequential, but they don't fit the picture where them and Nazis are allies.

And now it turns out that I'm twisting facts? It would be very interesting to know what facts exactly did I twist.


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VaultMan  -  May 10th, 2012, 11:19am
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leitskev
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Vault, I'm sorry, I have to bow out of the argument. You've become irrational. It's a waste of my time. The fact that you would defend the Soviet invasion of Finland, even using the old Soviet ruse of a scuffle on the border with a guard. Unbelievable, really. You live in some Stalin created propaganda world. No one will ever reach you there. If only we could all create our own worlds to inhabit. Have fun in there.
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VaultMan
Posted: May 10th, 2012, 11:46am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from leitskev
You live in some Stalin created propaganda world.

Goebbels-created propaganda world is no better. I sincerely hope you will find your way out of it, to whatever the real truth is.


Chukcha not reader, Chukcha writer!
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MacDuff
Posted: May 10th, 2012, 11:56am Report to Moderator
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Hey guys,

While it was an interesting discussion, maybe we should guide ourselves back to script talk?

SPOILERS

For me - I think there are pros and cons for making Andrei Russian OR Polish OR Polish-Jewish. I will take all the comments and suggestions away and consider what is best for the story.

From the great feedback I have received so far, there are definitely some issues with the characters and decisions.  

Ewan - definitely needs to be fleshed out. What his arc is - I'm still struggling with. I need to work in his background story and what it means to the current story. He's too passive.

Weiss - I need to work on his story too. At the moment, he's too passive.

Helene - I want to keep her tragic arc intact. War was a tradegy and that's what I want to show with her journey. She's very repetitive. That needs fixed.

Quick question about Ewan's arrival in Holland - I chose Amsterdam, but should it be Rotterdam? Would that cause issues. Keeping in mind that I'm keeping the story setting in 1940.

Again, thanks for the feedback.

Stew


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VaultMan
Posted: May 10th, 2012, 12:14pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from MacDuff

Ewan - definitely needs to be fleshed out. What his arc is - I'm still struggling with. I need to work in his background story and what it means to the current story. He's too passive.


He does need to be fleshed out, but I thought that the story wouldn't suffer that much if he didn't have an arc, and  stayed the same guy he was, serving his country. His lack of arc is compensated, in my opinion, by the stories of Andrei, whoever he will be later on, and Helene. The lack of theme (at least I didn't notice any, maybe I just didn't catch it) was a more serious problem that I forgot to mention in my notes.


Chukcha not reader, Chukcha writer!

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VaultMan  -  May 10th, 2012, 12:24pm
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Reef Dreamer
Posted: May 10th, 2012, 1:22pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from MacDuff

For me - I think there are pros and cons for making Andrei Russian OR Polish OR Polish-Jewish. I will take all the comments and suggestions away and consider what is best for the story.

From the great feedback I have received so far, there are definitely some issues with the characters and decisions.  

Ewan - definitely needs to be fleshed out. What his arc is - I'm still struggling with. I need to work in his background story and what it means to the current story. He's too passive.

Weiss - I need to work on his story too. At the moment, he's too passive.

Helene - I want to keep her tragic arc intact. War was a tradegy and that's what I want to show with her journey. She's very repetitive. That needs fixed.

Quick question about Ewan's arrival in Holland - I chose Amsterdam, but should it be Rotterdam? Would that cause issues. Keeping in mind that I'm keeping the story setting in 1940.

Again, thanks for the feedback.

Stew


Stew (sorry for calling you steven)

My thoughts;

Overview - what sets this apart from others War stories is the psychic element. i feel all characters, angles should be woven into this. do they believe, do they fear etc

1] Date - personally i won't get too hung up about it. its fiction not even set around a specific event. Hollywood changes things all the time.

After all this could be a gypsy girl in south france and would still work - maybe set up more conflict and interest.

2] Ewan - i feel he should have a conflict between the mission and the belief that it works which is then changed to a fear of it and a clash between fulfilling his mission versus handing the allies a destructive force. his external conflict Mission v Fairness/Morality should be the external play of an internal disbelief/loyalty to male forefathers  v fairness to mother/honesty.

Maybe he could come form a family of soldiers (dad, grandpa etc) but his mother was a white witch. He chose the father route over his mothers but inside there lies a nagging belief. Maybe the mother died without seeing him or he blamed her for something.

I aslo feel his killing needs to be toned down - i feel you have a decent soldier wrestling with morals.

The end scene instead of to the front line how about off to the desert to join the Long range desert troop (early SAS)

3] I didn't feel the boat scenario worked. i would have gone for parachuting into switzerland. More realistic.

Maybe his coming could be foretold as an entrance to the film - the question we are left with is who is making the prediction?

In Where eagles Dare, they start with the plane and flashback to why they were in the plane.

4] helene - i thought her exit was right. Based on a fear of oneself, of what you can do, for the greater good, like a soldier. But maybe it could be more heroic, such as the keeping of ursula occupied whilst the bombers arrive to kill them all- i.e. she's dynamic and fights for it.

more idea will follow

cheers

bill



My scripts  HERE

The Elevator Most Belonging To Alice - Semi Final Bluecat, Runner Up Nashville
Inner Journey - Page Awards Finalist - Bluecat semi final
Grieving Spell - winner - London Film Awards.  Third - Honolulu
Ultimate Weapon - Fresh Voices - second place
IMDb link... http://www.imdb.com/name/nm7062725/?ref_=tt_ov_wr
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Mr.Ripley
Posted: May 10th, 2012, 11:09pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Macduff,

SPOILERS!

Got to finish the script. I overall liked. As from the beginning, I always digged the idea.

I like Helene's arc and especially what happens to the end. It makes sense why she would do that.

However:

How does Vogel recognize Helene before he's captured?

Also, I think you portray the Nazi's too friendly. I don't know if it's the media that has affect me but, in the scene where Helene is rescued by the Russains, the Nazi soldiers are too friendly. Make them be meaner.

As mentioned before, Ewan and Weiss need a better character arc and a bit more depth. Particularly Ewan. Weiss could seek more attention from his father who's a higher up in the Nazi hierarchy? Maybe have Ewan save someone else from his past?

Also, show Helene practicing and gradually getting stronger with her powers.

Since this is a first draft, I know you're going to rewrite it. lol. Enjoy.

hope this helps,
Gabe
  


Just Murdered by Sean Elwood (Zombie Sean) and Gabriel Moronta (Mr. Ripley) - (Dark Comedy, Horror) All is fair in love and war. A hopeless romantic gay man resorts to bloodshed to win the coveted position of Bridesmaid. 99 pages.
https://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-comedy/m-1624410571/

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Mr.Ripley  -  May 11th, 2012, 7:04am
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leitskev
Posted: May 13th, 2012, 10:47am Report to Moderator
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Ok, back on the job, Stew. Sorry about the delay. And sorry about the forced history lesson. I'm about at the half way point.

The writing is strong, so no problems there. The story still has a lot of potential. It's definitely going to need several more passes to make things convincing to me. The biggest problem I'm having is in buying into much of the dialogue. Of course, this is the hardest part to get right in a script, especially in a first draft when you're really just kind of fleshing out the story.

I don't want to get this going again, but I do think Andrei needs to be Polish. Enough said on that.

Ewen's finding Andrei and Helene is way, way, way to easy. That has to be explained. Poland is a HUGE country. We're talking a needle in a haystack mountain. For Ewen to be taking a piss, and then knocked out by Andrei is the mother of all convenience. Even though Ewen knew where Helene's parents house is, so had a rough idea. Certainly the Germans had an even better idea.

I'm not sure I buy into Ewen's dialogue when captured. He stopped sounding British and started sounding like an American teenager. That can be tweaked easy enough, because you had the Brit voice down very well earlier. Also, are they speaking Polish? Would Ewen be so quick to identify himself without knowing his captors? Would he be carrying ID like that, since it would result in his getting hung if caught? Just questions that came to mind. In a story like this, you want to try to get things close.

There is room for artistic license, so I'm not sure where the line is. I'll bring these kind of things up, and ultimately you'll look at all the various opinion and make the call.

This is a very ambitious and difficult story for a pre-pro writer. I admire your taking it on, glad you have. It's not going to be easy, though. WWII is a big stage, one of the biggest.

I also want to address the Germans. The Nazi era Germans make the best bad guys, of course. But we have to be careful not to caricature, I think. It's a difficult line. We want evil, but not unsophisticated evil. The Nazis were into the occult, so maybe they knew about the witches for a long time, even before they came into power. Things to consider.
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kingcooky555
Posted: May 14th, 2012, 1:48pm Report to Moderator
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Finished this one. I liked the story. I've never seen/read WW2 with witches before. The story had an Indiana Jones feel to it. Nazis. The Occult. Action/Intrigue.

The writing was very clean. I only found a few issues which I'll detail below.

Ewan - I like the double agent idea. However, I questioned why he didn't use his German credentials to take a more direct route in Act I. Here he was sneaking into Amsterdam, jumping off a parachute in Poland. Why not just go to Paris, flash his German I.D. and go to Warsaw via train? From there, find ground transportation? Finally, was he speaking in English when he meets Weiss at around page 85 or so? I would think he'd be showing off his German to back up his credentials.

Anna - As I kept reading, I saw the change in her. It felt like you were hinting that something was growing inside her, taking over her decision making. I can see that as she becomes more violent in the end. I really thought a demon was growing inside her. She would get her revenge and finally she cracks and goes all out evil. Then she goes after Ewan and Ewan ends up killing her to get the demon. She reminds me of Jean Grey/Phoenix from XMen. Maybe that's why I was expecting some demon or something.

Weiss - doesn't get his hands dirty enough.

Here's my page by page notes. Few technical issues as your writing is clean:

pg 1 - "Leave Us Be" - I prefer "Leave us."
pg 1 - "We will" to "we'll" in the next two pages Weiss uses contractions so makes sense to use them here.
pg 3 - "Leave them be." Again I prefer cutting out "be".
pg 4 - After Vogel says And the rest? I would have Weiss pull out a gun and shoot Oscar and point blank range. Then he utters - "Take the rest to the barn and burn it."

I just think Weiss doesn't get too bloody (early on). Here is an opportunity early on to show he's not afraid to take matters into his own hands. Sends a message to his own men and reaffirms his position of authority.
pg 6 - reminds me of Magneto in the concentration camp
pg 10 - Hits inciting event by page 10 - Anna taken Helene stays. Possible it's Helene who has powers
pg 26 "The raise..." should be "They raise"
pg 30 The slug Polish Village - House... can be simplified to "House". In fact, in the next scene you cut out the Polish Village part.
pg 63 "unharmed and freely to these people." Freely reads awkward and is unnecessary. How about: He promises to release my mother, unharmed to these people?
pg 67 Ewan hopes a fence... should be hops
pg 70 For you parents - should be "For your.."
pg 89 Why speaking in English?
pg 109 I guess no demon or anything guiding her?
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darrentomalin
Posted: May 14th, 2012, 7:58pm Report to Moderator
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I read the 7wc in order so came to this last so won't go over spelling, format advice etc as it's already been mentioned.
I'll comment on structure, I found it hard to find your act breaks, the mid point should be a switch.  There is the foreshadowing of Anna's growing ability and perhaps a darkness in her (that needs a stronger payoff) but nothing that really lept off the page at me.
The story was well written but basic wording caused the script to lack any real punch or colour. THis will come on rewrites as you re-address some over used adjectives and find new ways of saying more with less words. That's what the re-write is for after all The same goes for the dialogue. Ewan and Weiss did stand out for me. Ewan had dashes of Mal Reynolds (Firefly/Serenity... which is a good thing... especially when he executed Vogel without blinking)  He could become a real neat anti-hero once you go through your redeveloping of his character.
Vogel turned into Mr Exposition a couple of times around midpoint.
The story was quite brutal, the opening and Anna's treatment. Not sure what rating this would go for.

Positive thoughts about it are numerous - I love the idea and the bare bones, old school action coat this is all wrapped in; a hero sent behind enemy lines on a secret mission but... WITH WITCHES yeah!
Ewan was cool and thought you made your bad guy REALLY bad at the start (he lost a bit of his edge later when Himmel turned up, he's isn't needed IMHO)
So in short, my advice for any rewrites:
Ramp up the jeopardy midpoint, dig deep and pull on some creative threads for your action and dialogue, make your heroes really suffer by end of act2 to come fighting back for the finale in act3.  They have to SUFFER to contrast their victory when it comes.
Good job.
Daz


http://darrentomalin.webs.com/index.htm

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steven8
Posted: May 18th, 2012, 1:16am Report to Moderator
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Last to be read, but by no means, least.  I read this in the OWC, and I really felt then that it did have what it takes to be a feature -- and it does!  This was a really good story.  I love reading everything I can about the Vril society and the psychics being used during WW2.  This was wonderful story based on the possibilities.  This has possibly moved into my favorite spot, but it's close!


...in no particular order
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c m hall
Posted: August 5th, 2012, 11:47am Report to Moderator
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SPOILERS
Good effort, certainly, there's much for a reader to enjoy in the story, there's a great deal of energy and some memorable characters.
The twists and turns in the plot keep the story moving, maybe too fast, at times.

I find this to be an exciting story but the dialogue hinders more than helps.  I suggest you let the action carry the story as much as you possibly can (mere looks of distrust, worry, hatred etc. can carry much information, I think, and could enhance the feeling of doubt about motives).

The various miltary officers convey some needed information in their dialogue, I guess there's no way around that.

In truth, I thought the ending didn't live up to the first 3/4 of the action, and it fell into the dreaded  "oh no, she's too powerful!" mode.  On the other hand, by about page 77, I think there was more action, less dialogue and that was an improvement.

Anyway, good story, I think, and I will be happy to read any revisions of this, if you want.
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MacDuff
Posted: August 5th, 2012, 2:33pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from c m hall
SPOILERS
Good effort, certainly, there's much for a reader to enjoy in the story, there's a great deal of energy and some memorable characters.
The twists and turns in the plot keep the story moving, maybe too fast, at times.

I find this to be an exciting story but the dialogue hinders more than helps.  I suggest you let the action carry the story as much as you possibly can (mere looks of distrust, worry, hatred etc. can carry much information, I think, and could enhance the feeling of doubt about motives).

The various miltary officers convey some needed information in their dialogue, I guess there's no way around that.

In truth, I thought the ending didn't live up to the first 3/4 of the action, and it fell into the dreaded  "oh no, she's too powerful!" mode.  On the other hand, by about page 77, I think there was more action, less dialogue and that was an improvement.

Anyway, good story, I think, and I will be happy to read any revisions of this, if you want.



Thanks for the read!

I've gathered all notes and added it to my rewrite pile. Hoping to work on it in the fall and post a revision.

Again, many thanks for your comments. They've been noted  

Cheers,
Stew



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