I see you've already got a lot of feedback on this already.  I didn't slog through all of the responses, but I read the first few pages and the last few pages, and feel like I have a little to add.  Sorry if I'm just repeating, though.

First off, I want to second what Shelton said here:

Quoted Text From the first time you introduce them, all the way up to the next set of intros in the lounge, I really disliked the interaction between Dan and Carlie.  It's sickeningly sweet, and rI was waiting for one to call the other "schmoopie".  We know they're married and that their relationship seems to be on pretty stable ground.  No need to beat the reader over the head with it.

This was a huuuuuuge problem for me, and made me want to quit reading.  It was bad enough on the plane, but to continue past that was simply punishment.  The scenes between the airplane and the bar did nothing to advance your plot, either.  I really loathed both of these characters by the end of page 6.  In fact, this led me to pegging them as the killers rather early on.  And while you want the audience to hate your villains, I hated them for the wrong reasons.  If these two had been handing out toys to orphans, I still would've hated them.  I actually had this same problem with the Rob Zombie movies.  I didn't hate the Fireflys because they were psychopathic killers, I hated them because they were obnoxious.

Also, I have to echo what George said here:

Quoted Text It takes way too long for something to happen. This is a horror script and after the teaser, no one gets whacked until page 57. That's page 57, dude! I mean, whoa! I hit page 20 on my first read through, and started getting worried that we were just having a whole lotta talking heads. I just started flipping through pages looking for something to happen, and I finally found it.  Your target audience that you love so much and defend so many movies for won't wait an hour for their next victim, no matter how bloody and naked your intro is

I saw you responded to this, and cited Wolf Creek in your defense.  I actually watched Wolf Creek last week, and disliked it for this same reason.  I know supporters of that movie have touted the first hour of that movie as character development, but I don't see it.  My problem with that film, as well as your script, is not that there's no killing happening in the first hour (outside of your opening scene, of course).  It's that there's nothing happening in the first hour.  If there was legitimate story/character development, I'd be down.  But watching the victims-to-be drink beer for hours and tell stories about a guy that isn't even in the movie...that doesn't add much to your story.  It's basically an overextended introduction.  I'm not learning anything new about these characters, I'm simply having my first impressions reinforced.

I'd suggest shortening the bar scene...a lot.  Get your characters in a situation where they're doing something, rather than simply talking.  Adding six characters and a band doesn't make your scenario any more interesting than WC, imo.  In fact, I'd say it's worse because it's more distracting.  Additionally, you can't really have any tension at the bar.  We know that nobody's going to get killed there (or are they? killing someone in the can would really pick up this scene!).  Rather than telling us about some past bar stories, why don't you just have it happen there?  Let somebody puke, get into a fight, anything!

Overall, I felt like the dialogue was really unnatural.  This starts off with the sheer multitude of pet names that Danny and Carlie have for each other, but continues on in the bar scene, where several characters are referred to by various names/titles.  In addition, I think you're overusing names in dialogue.  When you're speaking directly to someone, how often do you actually say their name?  Something like this could be a character trait, but all of your characters do it.

I see you've been taking some flak over the dogsledding bit.  Personally, I thought it was fine, and I thought the scenes at the Jacks residence were some of your best written and most interesting (though Bobby still uses too many names for Jill, imo).  As you said, the foreshadowing for the accident was definitely there.  The problem is that it doesn't really resolve or tie-in enough.  I know that's how they got the cop there, but I'd like to see a little more tying these events together.  Use those scenes to build tension.  Bobby is laid up with a broken leg, after all.  Drunk, sucked into the TV.  He's totally vulnerable.  You can exploit this before revealing the real killers.

I feel like interspersing the scenes through the credits is a bit gimmicky, and also the director's call rather than the writer's.  More importantly, the scene at Xavier's is integral to your script, in order to explain Tobias.  The rest seem a bit extraneous.  Additionally, I think adding the monetary motivation for the killings is a bit pointless.  If you had portrayed the couple as remorseful, killing against their will, then it would make sense.  But those two were sick bastards.  Killing for killing's sake seemed to fit just fine.  In fact, needing the money is contradictory to how they are presented.

In some ways, this script really feels to me like a nod to the old-school slasher movies.  But in the end, I feel this isn't really a slasher movie.  Victims in a slasher movie (after the few) are usually aware that there is a killer, and make some sort of effort to escape/fight back - one or more of the victims are the protagonist(s).  Janelle falls a bit short of this role, however.  Your protagonists are the killers, so I think they need to overcome more challenges, and be somehow changed at the end.  I was really hoping for one of them to turn on the other at the end.  Carlie killing Danny because he didn't want to have a family would be great, and would pick up that abandoned idea from the beginning of the script.

Hope that helps, sorry if I focused on the negatives a bit.  Interested to see what you did in your next draft.

Hey Jake, thanks for the read and comments.  Sorry it wasn’t what you were hoping for.  This has got to be one of the most negative reviews I’ve had, but I understand that this isn’t for everyone.

I really don’t know what set you off so much between page 4 and 6 with D & C, but as you quoted Shelton, you obviously weren’t alone.  As I’ve said so many times, I honestly can’t see anything about D & C’s characters that would garner such harsh comments.  I think they’re great characters.  I think they’re likeable, cool, and unique.

I’m even more shocked to hear you say that you pegged them as the killers early on because you disliked them so much.  I don’t see anything at all that would alert anyone as to what’s to come with D & C.

Actually, I don’t want my audience hating D & C.  I want them to make an individual choice as to how they feel about them, once they know they’re not who they thought they were.  Many will actually be routing for them to survive, others will be unsure how they “should” feel, and some will indeed hate them.

Funny you mention Zombie’s “Fireflys” from House and Rejects.  I feel 100% the opposite, as I loved the characters and that’s why I loved both movies.  Otis, Baby, and Captain Spaulding are amazingly well done characters, and come off as despicable yet likeable at the same time.  Their quirks make them unique and although one could say they’re merely altered versions of more notable movie bad guys, I wouldn’t agree.

The long build up in Wolf Creek, and in my Fade, isn’t only serving as character development.  It’s meant to lull the viewer into a false sense of security.  It’s purposely slow and long, and is exactly the opposite of how the 2nd half plays.  It’s meant to do something that actually unnerves the viewer, and makes the hard hitting action hit even harder…when it hits.  It constantly builds until it all boils over in the finale.

Jake, again, I am kind of shocked that you think the dialogue was “really unnatural”.  I feel the dialogue is extremely real and natural, and if nothing else, I consciously made a constant effort to make it so.  I guess with this “type” of dialogue, it all depends on how you “read” it.  I am very confident that if you heard it being spoken by a professional actor, it would come across much more real and natural.

As for pet names or nicknames, I find that in reality (other than a formal business setting), nicknames are a constant.  I rarely if ever call a friend by their actual name, and when it comes to a wife, girlfriend, or whatever, I always have pet names that I’ll use.  I know it’s not just me, cause I hear it all the time.  As people become comfortable with a person, the formality goes away and nicknames rule.

Glad you liked Jill and Bobby…some love ‘em, and others hate ‘em.  Most seem to think like you and mention that other than calling in the cavalry, they don’t really move things forward.  But keep in mind that this isn’t your typical horror flick and isn’t meant to be.  Characters and scenes serve their purposes…maybe not in a classic way, but everything that’s in here, is in here for a reason.

Sorry you didn’t like the missing scenes during the credits.  I personally love them.  I don’t agree with you either about them being the director’s call, as they all serve the story and overall script.  Yeah, they’re showed out of context and after the fact, but they’re there for a reason, and I think they work really well.

D & C were not killing for the sake of killing.  I realize that most don’t get the real motivation here…hopefully it’s a bit more clear in my final draft.  They are doing what they’re doing for a reason, and yeah, it is driven by a need or want for monetary gains, but there’s more to it.  This will all be explained in the sequel.

This is definitely not a slasher flick.  In a way it is a nod to old school horror, but I’d rather call it something like “new school horror”, cause although it resembles old school, it’s done in a very different and unique way.  The line between antagonist and protagonist is definitely and purposely blurred.  That’s one of the ways that this is different and unique and makes it hard to compare to other movies.

I’m interested in hearing what you think of the final version, which is now up.  It’s a lot tighter and better written all around.

Thanks for taking the time to read and review this for me.  I appreciate it.

Ok, I read through the new draft, as well as the extra pages of replies on this thread.  First off, it looks like my comments didn't really add anything that hadn't been said already.  In fact, I feel like I basically restated what Sniper said.  So sorry to just hammer the same stuff into you.  

I think you did make some notable improvements in the new draft.  I like that you took out all the song cues, and I think the bar scene is much more readable.  It feels less lengthy, and I like that you toned down the band and added more action.  I still find the Cancun story to be largely irrelevant, though.  You keep mentioning that you want to establish Jake as a badass so as to make it surprising when he drops first.  However, anybody who's ever watched a horror movie knows that being tough has no bearing on surviving.  The only thing that can help you survive is being the female lead or her love interest.  Secondly, being trashed and cold cocking some unarmed dude with a lead pipe doesn't really make me think of him as a badass.  Third, this is a classic example of showing rather than telling.

To clarify what I said earlier about using names, my problem isn't with using nicknames, but with using so many for one person.  You cleaned this up a lot in this draft, though Danny still refers to Carlie with about a dozen or so different names.  Also, people rarely use somebody's name (or nickname) when speaking directly to them, except for emphasis or to get their attention.  This is primarily what I meant by "unnatural dialogue", though I was also referring to Jake and Lisa's reactions to being attacked.  Sniper pointed this out as well.  In short, if someone I met a few hours ago hit me with a sledgehammer, my response wouldn't be "Danny, what are you doing?".  I probably wouldn't waste my breath calling them names, either.

I don't really have anything new to add, unfortunately, but just wanted to emphasize two main points.

As I mentioned before, I HATED Danny and Carlie.  This was easily my biggest problem with the script.  Had I liked them, I think the script would've worked for me overall.  The problem for you is that pretty much everyone else has mentioned this same thing, to varying degrees.  I know you've said that you don't get why people feel this way, but imo, figuring this out and fixing it is the most important thing you need to do with regards to this script.  FYI, one thing I do think works very well is Carlie catching snowflakes in her mouth.

Secondly, I think a lot of your other problems are caused by putting too much effort into things with very little payoff.  Examples of this would include the Cancun story, the Ski Shop scene, Jacobs' call to his wife, the explosive device on the tire, and the whole Xavier thing.  As I said before, I liked the stuff with the Jacks' family, and upon rereading, I do think it contributes enough to be worthwhile.  One change you might consider making is bumping their introduction scene up in the script, perhaps using it to break up the bar scene.

Ah, forgot I wanted to respond to this part.

Quoted from Dreamscale The long build up in Wolf Creek, and in my Fade, isn’t only serving as character development.  It’s meant to lull the viewer into a false sense of security.  It’s purposely slow and long, and is exactly the opposite of how the 2nd half plays.

It isn't a false sense of security, though.  At best, it's a real sense of security, because nothing happens.  The characters ARE safe for this part of the movie, and we don't have any fear for their safety.  At worst, it's a real sense of boredom, as the viewer waits for the story to take off.

I don't think there's anything wrong with delaying the killing.  Halloween is a great example of a movie that does this right.  After the opening scene, there are no on-screen deaths until about 53 minutes in.  The original Black Christmas is another, with the first kill at about 12 minutes, and the second at 41 minutes.  The problem is delaying the plot, which is what I felt happened in Wolf Creek - particularly since it didn't have much (any?) plot to speak of.  It's happening to a lesser extent in Fade to White, primarily because you DO have more setup required.  There is definitely still a lag before things start happening, though.

Hey Dreamscale, just read a few pages of your script. I love how your descriptive writing is, I was wondering where you learnt to write like that?

I'm currently re-writing my draft to make it the best it can be, but struggling with the descriptive side, and not making the scenes jump off the pages like you do, any tips?

Hey Muse, thanks for the compliment!  So nice to hear positive stuff.

Send me a scene or 2 of your script (E-Mail) and I'll take a look at it and see if I can offer any suggestions.

To answer your question, I've been writing all my life and I really enjoy writing.  The screenwriting thing is rather new to me, as I started about 4 years ago.  The way I write is by first "writing" everything out in my head, to the point that I actually "see" everything as it happens.  I want to make sure that everything makes complete sense, realistically.

When writing a screenplay, you obviously have to be aware of how much info you're actually giving.  So much happens within a scene that can't be included on the page.  But if you play it out in your head enough, you'll know exactly how it's going down, and from there, you can (hopefully) figure out exactly what needs to be played up to create the best reaction (emotion, horror, violence, fear, intensity...whatever).

I tend to spend alot of time, making sure what I've written is acceptable to me and the vision I have.  I rarely write more than a few pages at a time, before going over them again and again until I'm happy with them.  Then the process continues.

I find the hardest part is finding the right words to describe what I'm thinking, So always tend to the basics, probably when I read it back to myself I can visually see it but I can't express it in words if you get me?

I'll send you a scene now.

Jeff, when you asked me to look at this script, I told you I wasn't fond of slasher films; you told me it wasn't one.  And lo and behold, five people are brutally murdered by some lunatic in the first 3.5 pages.  This was a big turn off for me.

I got up to page 35 before I stopped reading.  After the initial massacre, we have another 30+ pages of dragged out, artificial and tiresome dialog by a handful of characters whose names I can't even remember.  What is the point of all that?

You have to trim a lot of fat from this script.  And fix your upper margin; that's just cheating the page count and the reader.


Phil

Oh Phil, I was hoping you'd stick with it.  The long, slow build is there for a reason.  Just because there are a bunch of murders does not mean it's a slasher script.  It is not a slasher flick at all.  The opening scene is there to hit you over the head and let you know nothing and no one is sacred.

What are you talking about the upper margin being off?  It's not.  Maybe when it was converted to a PDF, something looks odd about it...I don't know...it looks exact to me, and is the same exact amount of pages as it is on my Movie Magic Screenwriter software (which I love, BTW).

I'm bummed, as I was really looking forward to hearing what you thought of it (the whole thing, that is).  Oh well, I tried.  Thanks for at least giving it a look, and sorry it's not your drink of choice.

Quoted from Dreamscale Oh Phil, I was hoping you'd stick with it.  The long, slow build is there for a reason.  Just because there are a bunch of murders does not mean it's a slasher script.  It is not a slasher flick at all.  The opening scene is there to hit you over the head and let you know nothing and no one is sacred.

Opening up with a bunch of murders is just shock value material, nothing more.  The fact that you're introducing these people as they're being killed means that the reader does not have the time to develop any feelings for these people.  Their deaths have no impact.

Your slow build would actually be about thirty minutes of screen time, about a quarter of your film.  Reading that much banter is completely unnecessary.

And you shouldn't list a bunch of characters together, like you did.  It just overloads the reader's mind and nothing stays in his head.

Quoted from Dreamscale What are you talking about the upper margin being off?  It's not.  Maybe when it was converted to a PDF, something looks odd about it...I don't know...it looks exact to me, and is the same exact amount of pages as it is on my Movie Magic Screenwriter software (which I love, BTW).

When I printed it, the top of the page looks like it has a quarter inch margin.  This actually gives each page about three additional lines of copy.  Over the course of your script, you 'hide' about ten pages off the page count.  If you were to submit it to a competition, or to a script reader, it could be tossed for this reason.

Quoted from Dreamscale I'm bummed, as I was really looking forward to hearing what you thought of it (the whole thing, that is).  Oh well, I tried.  Thanks for at least giving it a look, and sorry it's not your drink of choice.

Sorry.


Phil

Pia, what do you mean by this?  Who is MM?  I don't understand.  I've never heard any other complaints about the formatting, and I do use a Professional screenwiting software package that I thought was spot on.

Please clarify...thanks!

Quoted from Dreamscale Who is MM?  I don't understand.

Movie Magic.  Your software.

Quoted from Shelton Movie Magic.  Your software.

I thoght she meant Marty McFly, but your guess makes more sense.

Thanks you guys.  Yeah, I talked with MM.  I can change the settings.

As far as I can tell, proper formatting calls for a top margin of between .5 and 1 inch.  My current setting is a little more than .5.  To change it to what MM calls "proper", it is close to 1 inch, but still a tad under.  It raises my page count by 4 pages and throws my outline off, so I don't think I'm going to worry about it at this point.

My question to them, which they didn't have a good answer for, was why is it loaded with somehting that's under what they refer to as proper?

Either way, MM has amazing technical support.

Quoted from Grandma Bear and it will not be disqualified in competitions btw.

It can.  If you enyter a competition where the maximum length of a script is 120 pages....and you give them 119 pages with narrow margins, they'll know it's over the limit and disqualify you.

Jeff, can you reset the top margin to one inch and see how many more pages your script becomes?  I'd be curious



Phil