Rendevous, I have a relatively thick hide, but the way you’re coming across now is getting a bit irritating, to say the least.  Also, extremely nit picky, and I don’t see anything remotely positive being thrown in for good measure.  If the case is that you think this is a piece of shit and has none or very few redeeming factors, than, that’s fine.  I understand.  But if you enjoyed aspects or parts of it, or even overall, you should let me know that, so I know what did work for you.

I always appreciate any and all feedback, so I’ll do my best to accept this as constructive criticism.

Good for Scriptshadow.  I’d agree that in most scripts/movies, it’s not the best way to go about things.   But, I’d also say that I really can’t think of a single movie that is completely devoid of characters sitting and talking.  IMO, it all comes down to the actual scene…what’s going on around them…how many people are involved…what’s being said…how it’s pulled off.

You obviously hate these scenes, so that’s duly noted.

I hear you about your writing group.  I don’t personally see these scenes as playing out that dully, or overly long.  IMO, there is a ton of information being passed on in these scenes.  There is also a definite tone being displayed that is intended to set up the 2nd half of the script.  Guess I could be one of the few who feels this way though, so your thoughts are, again, duly noted.

If those 10 people who tell you, you’re drunk, really know you, and have seen you drunk in the past, then I’d say chances are they’re right.  But, it’s also a very grey area, as we all carry our alcohol differently…and all act quite differently when we are drunk.  Some people are “good drunks”.  They’re funnier, more engaging, more outgoing, etc.  Others, though are “mean drunks” and when they’re hammered, they cause problems.  I’m one of those “good drunks”, BTW!

The movies you have mentioned are a completely different breed of flick.  Everything doesn’t have to be a clone of something else, or follow the same plot points.  American Werewolf in London is much more of a comedy than a horror film.  It’s also a movie that came out almost 30 years ago!  I take it, you have not seen Wolf Creek, Rogue, or even the Hostel films.  These are much more in the spirit of what I am after.

This is in no way a slasher script.  It does have elements of slasher, but again, that’s why it’s a hybrid. It is not intended to follow the setup or feel of a slasher script.  The tone, feel, and construction is so much different, and is meant to be different.

A difference of opinion here for sure about what a horror script is supposed to be like.  I have a feeling you are far from a horror fan, but then again, this is supposed to appeal to a wider audience than just hard core horror fans, so maybe I missed.

A fade to whatever simply closes that scene.  It does not necessarily show a passage of time.

Yes, this is the way Bobby and Jill talk with each other.   Maybe it is weird, but there’s nothing wrong with it.  It’s purposely written this way.  Sorry it doesn’t work for you.  Like most of these characters, they are a bit quirky. I really like them and think they are quite funny.

I hear ya about actual song references, but in the way they’re being used (except for Shimmering Highs, of course) the actual song is not being played.  It’s like a character referencing a movie or song.  I see no problem here, and for me at least, they stand out and make an impact…they’re memorable.  John Norum would be pretty stoked for 1 of his songs to play over the closing credits, I think.  Can’t see where or why he’d be against it, and it’s always a good plug for fans of his to tune in and check it out.

A few years ago, there were over 50,000 unsolicited scripts being dumped on Hollywood each year.  98% of them were pure crap and garbage.  No one had the time to read them all, and most readings ended after less than a page. That’s pretty much why it’s such a closed and locked door policy in tinsel town now.

Again, I’m not going for anything that is anyway normal or standard.  If someone doesn’t like that, then they won’t like this script.  I’m cool with that.  I’m trying to give myself every chance I can find, and when it comes along, I’m ready.

Again, man, you’re really splitting hairs here with Bobby and Jill. Here’s why though.   He just had this ski accident yesterday.  Bobby can usually take care of his own drinking.  This is a new situation here.  Does Bobby sit in front of his TV every night, slamming 32’s?  Actually, no, he doesn’t.  He’s in pain…he’s bummed to be missing this dump.  He’s drinking heavy, hoping to pass out.

OK, page 63, yes, shouldn’t be 2 “ands” in 1 sentence.  It’s changed…there’s 1 now…the 2nd one.  Just a visual with “open gloved hand”.  It’s been awhile since Danny’s been in the shed, so I was merely reminding that he had gloves on.  The word open doesn’t bother me here…it’s 1 word, and deleting it, doesn’t save me a line.

Well, that’s good. Glad you don’t have too many problems with the action prose.  That’s a plus, I guess.  That example is a tad long, but I actually think it’s cool the way it is and reads.  I understand your point about “gets ready to swing away”, but IMO, it’s very obvious what Danny is doing, as he’s being filmed.

After awhile, your brain should register the “Continuous” in the slug, and just skim over it.  There are alot of continuous scenes for sure.  Maybe you don’t like that type of movie, as most actually aren’t done this way.

There are certain words I always CAP…Heaven, Hell, Mom, Dad, OK, etc.  Maybe it’s that rebel in me again…not sure, but that’s what I always do, and you’ll find it’s just about as consistent as you’re gonna get.

I do not agree with you at all about your little Bond analogy.  Danny asked this point blank (or tried to, and was cut off because X knew what he was asking).  Just trying to throw in a little ambiguity, and some clues to what’s really going down here.

Glad you liked the latter part of the script a bit better than the beginning.  I actually think the first half is where the power is, and makes the 2nd half play out…and feel…like it does.

I don’t see alot of Scream here, but I do love the movie, and think it was very well done.

The version you read may have a top margin issue.  I realized this awhile back, when another Movie Magic user brought it up.  I talked with the customer service people as well and corrected the problem.  The draft I have now is cool on the margins.

Again, I’m shocked about your comment that you didn’t see the weather coming into play throughout.   It’s constantly dumping, and there are a number of outdoor scenes in the snow.  These scenes are purposely placed to show the beautiful weather.  Characters have winter wear throughout, or take it off.  Somehow I’ve failed here, and that bums me out.  The snow and colors are mentioned throughout as motifs, actually.  Guess you missed those as well.

Rendevous, hope I don’t come off as bitter, but I guess I am a bit.  I don’t think this last post helped in any way, but your opinions are respected, and all feedback is appreciated, as I always say.

That was obviously a joke, as I mentioned in a post.  You’ll have to wait for the sequel for the baby elephant to search for his mother.  I guess I chose to keep it rather tame with only 14 kills, and 1 near death dog sled ride.  There could always be more, but I liked this amount.  Maybe I’ll go for double in the sequel.  We’ll see.

Thanks, and take care.

You type fast. DS, I've said what I've said. Pages of it. You want me to change my opinion now? Okay - you first.

The last point was a vague effort to lighten the tone. That doesn't seem to have completely succeeded.
You have arguments backed up with other arguments. Then another set. They're like zombies. An army of argument zombies. Hundreds of them. Jesus. There's thousands.

I wrote what I considered honest and clear views about your script. I didn't really expect to have to prove them or argue them further. I've done Jury Service but I'm yet to appear in the Dock. Why do I feel like I am now? WTF?

You know the one about opinions and arseholes? Everybody got one and everybody thinks there's is the only one that's pretty and doesn't stink. It applies to everybody.

I've been knocking round here now for about six months or so. I can't recall ever having to go back over things and post clarifications or justifications.

Try this. How about you consider my points, all of them. Take them in the spirit they were given, which was one of helpful, honest and constructive. If you decide at some point to do a rewrite they may of use.

Or you can ignore them. Bin 'em. Chuck 'em out with the trash in the gutter.

Whatever you do I'm fine with. But what I won't do is play SS Argument Tennis. Life's too short. There's scripts to be written and booze to be drank.

Response to 7/26 post @ 9:32

Rendevous, listen, our 2 last posts crossed in the night.  My 2 last posts were responses to your posts of 7/24 @ 5:22, and 7/26 @ 2:09.  Because you split your posts up, I just tried to make it simple and follow along with each post.  I always respond to questions and issues that are raised, as you probably know.  If you don’t feel the need to respond back (as in back and forth), that’s totally fine and cool.  But when someone takes the time to read my script and post feedback, I’m going to give them some of my time as well, by responding to what they had to say.

Trust me here, bud, I’m not trying to get into an argument with you over anything, and everyone’s opinion is of equal value.  The slug thing just has me really confused.  The story from the plane to the time D & C finally get to their own rented house all takes place over 1 night.  If you don’t see a new “day” or “night” in the slugs, you should assume it’s still the same time of day.  Why wouldn’t you?

My comment about “scathing” and “negative” was referring to your “next post”, and was not being addressed here.  It was the words you chose to use, the things you chose to bring up, and the tone of your commentary that got a bit offensive.  I don’t know who Pauline Kael or Peter Bradshaw are, so that doesn’t mean much to me.

I am not at all bothered that you didn’t like it.  I’m really not.  No, I do not want to be falsely smothered in praise.  As I’ve said again and again, I totally appreciate any and all feedback…it all helps.  That’s cool, man.  When something is brought up, I’m always going to give my take on it.

Back to those damn snails…I mean slugs.   So, you disagree that slugs should be consistent and give as much information as possible?  You say they should tell you as much info as you need to know, and no more…what does that mean, though?  Why wouldn’t you want to give as much info as you can, when it doesn’t cost you a single line?  If “Continuous” is obvious and redundant, why didn’t you even know that my script took place over 1 night, even though it was laid out very clearly, so you’d know this?

Yes, this is a spec script.  What’s your point there?  Why would you want to have to completely change all your slugs if you turned it into a shooting script?  It’s just good and smart practice to do your slugs correctly, completely, and consistently...all the time.  I’ve tried to elaborate on this slug issue numerous times, but you are steadfastly against it.  You are not alone in your view about using “Continuous”, or the like, but I doubt anyone agrees that slugs shouldn’t be consistent.  Obviously, you can write slugs anyway you like.

Dude, I’m not arguing or dismissing anything you say.  I’m simply responding and commenting on the points you’re bringing up.  Isn’t that what drives communication?  Would you rather that I just disregard your comments?

I’ve thanked you countless times for reading and posting feedback, dude.  Again, if you bring something up that I do not agree with, I’m always going to tell you.  If it’s a difference of opinion, then that’s cool, isn’t it?  If it’s a technical issue, and I disagree with you, I’m going to try and tell you why what I’m saying is correct.  I don’t see anything wrong with that.  Sorry if my responses sound like rebuttals and denials.  Not my intention at all.

Part of the problem here is that you read the script in 3 parts, and posted feedback at 3 different times.  Because of this, we have posts going back and forth that aren’t even referring to the same posts.  It makes it tough…sorry if I’m at fault here.

Rendevous, you’re all over the board now.  Your comments seem to be about anything and everything.  My review of your script was meant to help.  I tried to bring up issues and the like so that you would be aware of them.  I always try and give a detailed review, and I spend a lot of time doing it.  All opinions are exactly that…opinions.  An opinion is never incorrect either, and I totally understand that.

Do I think my script is great and flawless?  I do think it’s great, but nothing is flawless.  I wouldn’t have written it in a way that I thought it sucked, or had all sorts of plot holes and technical issues.  It’s been through over a year of rewrites, and I’m very happy with where it’s at right now.  Why would anyone write and submit something that they didn’t think was good?  The only reason I can think of is because they have no clue.

Your comments are not utterly futile, dude.  I don’t know why you’re acting like this now.

I'm really sorry it took me this long to respond to you're script. Life got in the way of the internet for a while.

I think that this script has the potential to be great, which is more than half the battle. You're a really good writer and you've got a good visual sense. You can pace things out well and you're descriptions and nice and clear.

Now keep in mind that this is just one man's opinion and you are free to do what you will with it. But this STORY didn't grab me like I hoped.

I thought about it for a while and I think that my main problem with it is there is not enough game in this game. It doesn't feel physiological enough. We're not inside the killers heads enough to really get weirded out by what they are doing. I mean for people who would actually do this, what a freak show must being going on inside them! None of this psycho pleasure from taboo is anywhere in their outward appearance, and it should pour from them, especially after they showed us that they are the killers. They move too fast, expose themselves to quickly. You've missed too many opportunities to drive this action while all the other talky stuff is going on.

The opening doesn't feel real. It took my a while to understand it, but it's just this happens, then that happens, there's no build up. No game playing, and that's what you're killers are really doing, their playing a game, of sorts. Even if these people are killing for sport, there seems like there should be some level of stalking. That's got to be the rush, not the simple cut to the trigger pull.

Take the first time we are introduced to the killers. Seems like a lot of golden missed opportunities to have their interactions be less about her wanting a child, but about having a weekend of something special. What is that something special? Maybe romance, maybe some skiing, maybe some sport kill?? Who knows, but play it both ways, so they are stranger. Right now they just seem kind of card-boardy.

Staying with this scene for a second, It's pretty obvious what's she's talking about right from the get go and then this entire scene sits with the baby idea. You could have him try to turn the conversation away with a bit of double talk about what they are REALLY there to do. But mask the hell out of it, so it just sounds like he's distracting her. Talking about games and playing and what not.
Just a good opportunity to let the story slide in subtlety here.

Just my opinion, but I'd cut the following scene with the Rosie telling them what a lovely couple and asking them about being skiers. It reads better just having them go straight to exiting the gateway. Get us out of there, nothing is going on, the next part of the story is the newscaster on TV, so get to him.

And then you do what I think you should do more of. There seems to be a bit of double talk going on all of a sudden between these two. Danny can't talk about secrets. Good, now he's acting a little bit off and she's still the good guy. Keep her in the pocket for later, because the only real "What?" moment I got was when she turned out to be a killer also. Cool!

Another good thing you did, which I didn't like at first read, was have her always trying to catch snowflakes in her mouth in the next few scenes. I didn't like how dumb it made her seem, but it turned out to be a nice contrast for her later personality. I'd do more of that. Think of their motivations, what is really exciting them about what they are about to do? Deep down, it's the anticipation of all the nasty shit and then turn it on its head by foreshadowing it subtly  in their dialogue. To me that would have made this script really great. I understand you've over sweetened them to throw us off, but at least make them strange and curious somehow. They don't feel like real people yet. Just a girl who wants a baby and her dumb husband. They are smarter and more clever than this. So make them that way.

But don't make us not like them yet! Make us like them, but make what they are talking about intriguing to us. You're girl seems too dumb to like very much. Make her smart, intriguing and keep her innocence revealed until that great shower scene/closet scene where she shows us what side she's on!

Then we get to the biggest scene in the movie, the bar scene. I read some of the other readers posts, so I'm sure you can tell that its not quite playing they way you are hoping. The fact is, it really just sits there. But you've got a lot of character interaction going, the problem is, it isn't going anywhere, and really doesn't have anything to do with the arc of your story. I'm not trying to say to spell it out. In fact I'm saying the exact opposite. Somehow in this scene you should have lead us somewhere besides a bunch of people drinking and talking about their past and making small talk. Not that all of that shouldn't happen in some fashion in this scene, but its missing something. Some sort of thread that's pulling us to the next part of your movie. That's up to you to decide how to do, but I'd really try to interweave the dialogue of the killers with the group be a bit more double speaky. They seem to have found their prey, at least they think they do. They should be excited about that. They don't have to spell it out, but it should be their in their interactions.

To me, this is a perfect opportunity to up the game. I realize that you are going for a kind of, "everything is innocent until it just falls to shit at once" kind of a vibe. But the only way a scene this long is going to ever play is that its somehow driving the story. Right now, what is going on isn't intriguing enough to keep paying attention to. You're missing something here.

From there, it's starts to take off. The character's become more interesting as now they seem to be living in real time in their interactions with each other.  The lesbian story introduces an element of the "strange house" that everyone is now trapped in. Now we're stuck in the snow and people are starting to let their hair down. Things are heating up.

But I think the first kill happens to fast. It doesn't have to be stalky like Halloween, but its just too quick to even feel scary, or even out of place for some reason. It should build to this better. You killer is revealing himself for the first time. It would have been cool to have seen him actually struggle with the kill in some fashion. Like it would be obvious that he wanted it, but there was a bit of hesitation before he loses control. Watching people lose control is much scarier than watching people just hack away in my opinion.

I think that from there it would all play out more satisfactory if the build up to the end was more leading, as I've tried to describe. Once you get to you're third act, things are humming away really nicely and everything is more fun and interesting all of sudden. Now we're in the heart of a story that's unfolding that we now have a grasp of what we're involved in.

I really think that a re-write playing on themes of this game the killer's are playing and really subtly building to your ending would help the emotional pull of the story. And I think that getting more inside of the heads of your killers would then give us a better sense of the minds of all of those involved in this game, which would make it hit home a bit harder. Now its not just two freaks, there is a network out there and no one is safe. Little gut punch at the end.

I think you've got a strong story inside this script here. I'd love to see more of it come out.

B

Hey Brian, I apologize for not responding to your feedback earlier.  It’s not like me at all. I’ve gone through some tough times recently, and had to make a big move. The OWC also took a lot of time.  So here we go.  I wanted to respond to you to clear a few things up.

Thanks so much for reading and providing feedback on my script.  I appreciate any and all feedback so much.

Sorry the story didn’t grab you like you had hoped.  This is definitely not a psychological story in any way.  It was not my intent to put you in the heads of the killers.  I was going for a much different angle here, and I understand if that didn’t work for you.  It’s different, and it’s meant to play out and feel different.

SPOILERS     SPOILERS     SPOILERS     SPOILERS

Danny and Carlie are not playing a game at all.  Many are having trouble understanding exactly what’s going on and why, and it’s still quite baffling to me why that is.  Yes, things are supposed to be ambiguous, and up to each’s interpretation, but everything is laid out in here and shouldn’t be that difficult to figure out, IMO…but then again, I obviously could be way off here, since many are having difficulty with it.

Xavier is the key here.  The fact that he’s not properly intro’d until after the credits start rolling, is…well…different, for sure.  Far from standard structure in every way.  And in most purists minds, just downright incorrect.  I believe in braking the mold though.  I believe that different is good.

Xavier is Satan.  He is buying souls of individuals who have a propensity to kill (how does he find them and how does he know this?  Cause he’s Satan…it’s what he does). He offers riches or whatever one wants in return for a killing spree, based on his rules.  What does he get out of it?  Well, in theory, he gets the souls of the killers, because obviously, killing is a pretty big sin, and when you sin at this level, where do you go when you die?  You go to Hell.  Carlie doesn’t quite agree with this and feels that there are ways around this ultimate sacrifice.  Is she right?  We don’t know yet.

All this is ambiguous at best, but it’s definitely something that can be read in, and with actual visuals, I know it will be much clearer.

So, taking this into account, there is no game going on.  D & C are doing this simply because they are in a situation where they feel they are in great need of money.  It came as an offer they couldn’t refuse, and they see what happens when one doesn’t properly follow the rules first hand, when Tobias gets taken out.  Tobias was in the ame situation they’re now in.  Basically, once you’re in, there’s no turning back.

At their core, D & C are nice people.  Even good hearted people.  They’re cool, goofy,a nd totally in love with each other.  They’ve never done anything like this in their lives, and probably never thought they were even capable of such a thing.  How can they become these cold blooded, viscous killers on a dime?  Well, as X says, by agreeing to his deal, a certain “power” is obtained…something that they will thank him for later.  Ambiguous again for sure.

The structure is meant to follow such horror films as Hostel and Wolf Creek.  Both movies that are basically, 2 movies in 1.  Long, slow, meandering 1st halves, and then wam, bam, breakneck craziness.  The long, slow build up that seems to go nowhere is all done to increase the impact of the 2nd half.  

Obviously, story wise, this is nothing grand, and it’s not supposed to be.  The key here is 2 fold…a huge unexpected twist about 1/3 in (which you don’t come across very often, if ever), and then non stop action with brutal, graphic violence.  It’s supposed to play out real, and everything about it, from the action, to the dialogue, to the decisions that each and every character makes, it should come off as real, gritty, and downright brutal.

That’s it in a nutshell.  I’m so tired of the same old thing, over and over again.  I’ve seen so many movies that I pretty much know exactly what’s going to happen every time I see a new movie, and that pisses me off.  With this, you’re not going to have a clue what’s going to happen.  Even after the reveal, you’re still not going to know which way things are going to play out, because it doesn’t follow standard clichéd plotlines and structure.  No one is safe here and nothing is sacred.  Are you cheering for D &C or are you hating them?  Each will have to make his own choice, and I think it will be different for different people.

Hope that helps clear some things up and makes sense also.  Thanks again for the read and feedback.

Quoted from Dreamscale Hey Brian, I apologize for not responding to your feedback earlier.  It’s not like me at all. I’ve gone through some tough times recently, and had to make a big move. The OWC also took a lot of time.  So here we go.  I wanted to respond to you to clear a few things up. Thanks so much for reading and providing feedback on my script.  I appreciate any and all feedback so much. Sorry the story didn’t grab you like you had hoped.  This is definitely not a psychological story in any way.  It was not my intent to put you in the heads of the killers.  I was going for a much different angle here, and I understand if that didn’t work for you.  It’s different, and it’s meant to play out and feel different. SPOILERS     SPOILERS     SPOILERS     SPOILERS Danny and Carlie are not playing a game at all.  Many are having trouble understanding exactly what’s going on and why, and it’s still quite baffling to me why that is.  Yes, things are supposed to be ambiguous, and up to each’s interpretation, but everything is laid out in here and shouldn’t be that difficult to figure out, IMO…but then again, I obviously could be way off here, since many are having difficulty with it. Xavier is the key here.  The fact that he’s not properly intro’d until after the credits start rolling, is…well…different, for sure.  Far from standard structure in every way.  And in most purists minds, just downright incorrect.  I believe in braking the mold though.  I believe that different is good. Xavier is Satan.  He is buying souls of individuals who have a propensity to kill (how does he find them and how does he know this?  Cause he’s Satan…it’s what he does). He offers riches or whatever one wants in return for a killing spree, based on his rules.  What does he get out of it?  Well, in theory, he gets the souls of the killers, because obviously, killing is a pretty big sin, and when you sin at this level, where do you go when you die?  You go to Hell.  Carlie doesn’t quite agree with this and feels that there are ways around this ultimate sacrifice.  Is she right?  We don’t know yet. All this is ambiguous at best, but it’s definitely something that can be read in, and with actual visuals, I know it will be much clearer. So, taking this into account, there is no game going on.  D & C are doing this simply because they are in a situation where they feel they are in great need of money.  It came as an offer they couldn’t refuse, and they see what happens when one doesn’t properly follow the rules first hand, when Tobias gets taken out.  Tobias was in the ame situation they’re now in.  Basically, once you’re in, there’s no turning back. At their core, D & C are nice people.  Even good hearted people.  They’re cool, goofy,a nd totally in love with each other.  They’ve never done anything like this in their lives, and probably never thought they were even capable of such a thing.  How can they become these cold blooded, viscous killers on a dime?  Well, as X says, by agreeing to his deal, a certain “power” is obtained…something that they will thank him for later.  Ambiguous again for sure. The structure is meant to follow such horror films as Hostel and Wolf Creek.  Both movies that are basically, 2 movies in 1.  Long, slow, meandering 1st halves, and then wam, bam, breakneck craziness.  The long, slow build up that seems to go nowhere is all done to increase the impact of the 2nd half.   Obviously, story wise, this is nothing grand, and it’s not supposed to be.  The key here is 2 fold…a huge unexpected twist about 1/3 in (which you don’t come across very often, if ever), and then non stop action with brutal, graphic violence.  It’s supposed to play out real, and everything about it, from the action, to the dialogue, to the decisions that each and every character makes, it should come off as real, gritty, and downright brutal. That’s it in a nutshell.  I’m so tired of the same old thing, over and over again.  I’ve seen so many movies that I pretty much know exactly what’s going to happen every time I see a new movie, and that pisses me off.  With this, you’re not going to have a clue what’s going to happen.  Even after the reveal, you’re still not going to know which way things are going to play out, because it doesn’t follow standard clichéd plotlines and structure.  No one is safe here and nothing is sacred.  Are you cheering for D &C or are you hating them?  Each will have to make his own choice, and I think it will be different for different people. Hope that helps clear some things up and makes sense also.  Thanks again for the read and feedback.

Well now. That is not coming across at all and that's a shame, cuase that's a really cool angle. You find a way to really make that understandable and you've got something here.

But if it stays like it is now, and everyone who reads it misses that critical piece of info, then everything else about the first half seems to not really work that effectively.

That's a really cool angle, I'd find a way to make that a bit more obvious somehow. That really would change everything.
B

Brian, if you reread from page 105 (at least in the current version), the scene labled, "EXT.  A SKI RUN ON THE MOUNTAIN", you may see what I'm referring to.  You'll also want to reread the next scene in X's mansion on Camelback Mountain.  That's where all the info lies that wraps up what went down.

The fact that this is after the fact may make it come across differently, as in, you already "think" you know what's going on, what went on, and why.  Everything changes here and because of that, it doesn't work for some.  I also think that many may be missing this information, again, because they think everything is already done and this is merely wrap up, or tacked on.

But, it's actually the nuts and bolts of the entire story.  It's just told in a very different structure and plotting.  Kind of like, "you think you understand it all, but now let me throw this in, and see if it changes how you feel, or what you thought you already knew".

It's also the segway into the sequel, in which all these ambiguous issues will be played up, explained, etc.  I pesonally love when a movie ends in a way I didn't see coming. It makes me rethink everything I already thought.  It makes for good conversation after the fact.

But, maybe I'm just weird...no, wait...I am weird, but is that such a bad thing?  Depends on who you ask.

Enjoy the weekend!

Interesting. It is in there after all. By the time I got to this page, I just wasn't prepared for that twist. I seriously thought you were just being descriptive of X, as in metaphorically. I didn't realize you meant literally and it flew right over my head. That scene is a bit vague in really letting that punch unfold.

Hmmmm. Interesting.
B

Dreamscale

Very good horror flick! (Exclamation point intended, and not overused).

Much has already been said, so I won’t reiterate those discussions. You’ve very professionally acknowledged each and every note, and in the end, of course, every choice is up to you.

In addition, in the bigger picture I don’t think small issues about slugs, stylistic uses of prose and a line or two of overwritten or underwritten dialog is going to bury a script. In fact, I know it won’t. In previous comments about your scripts I may have mentioned that I was once married to a production company reader, and she and other professional readers invariably said while there may be small annoying issues in a script, what’s most important is the writer’s mastery of the STORY.  So, if you are skilled enough to grab them on page one, and keep the reader engaged, a fuzzy slug or a flowery description will not send the script to the shredder. The small stuff can be fixed, but a bad story is like 10-day old fish – you can’t wait to get rid of it.  And we all know, if God smiled on you, and your spec script is optioned, you won’t recognize it six months later. Guaranteed, the changes won’t be about slugs and prose, it will be about cutting scenes and characters, adding scenes and new characters, bending the plot, changing the beats, screwing with the title, including the producer’s housekeeper’s notes – well, you’ve seen that movie.

For me there are many things to like and enjoy about Fade To White, and I would have a good time seeing it on the big screen.

In particular I like the set up that Danny and Carlie are going to be the victims, when in fact it's shocking to discover they are killers –- very nice reversal. Impeccably formatted, strong character development and character-driven dialog,  excellent suspense and I like anything with a hint of girl-on-girl, pig that I am.

My comments are about structure.

Two things: I am not a big fan of “The Suddenly Appearing Character” at the end of story and I always feel a need to have a hint of the killer’s back story as a clue to why and how aggressively they will be planting hatchets in victim’s heads.

Combining these two thoughts– and, of course, you may strongly disagree – consider this:  

Let me stop for a minute:  since I am new to the threads here I don’t know whether it’s protocol to suggest a story change to the author, and if it isn’t I apologize for the following.  If it’s not…

What if Xavier is introduced much earlier in the story in a very short flash back, related only to Tobias’ character, thus keeping the reversal about Danny and Carlie a surprise?  What if, after the drunk is killed with the tire iron - which we assume is done by Tobias -  there’s a cut to Xavier’s scene and chilling philosophy that you have on page 106, “ There’s a power to death and killing…,” and only reveal Tobias in that scene.

This would also subtly tee-up the madness behind Danny and Carlie’s slaughtering, and when the story comes full circle back to Xavier and the three, it might heighten Tobias being blown away and give a deeper insight to Danny and Carlie.

Also, have you considered setting up a sequel at the end?  What if it ends with Danny back at his new and better office, seeing a potential patient late, after normal hours? In the pre-op examination, he picks up a scalpel…

Big Lew

Hey Lew, thanks so much for the read and comments.  Totally appreciate it!

Glad this seemed to work for you.  And yes, I always do respond to each and every person and do my best to cover their comments.

I totally agree with you on the small stuff, as well as the big stuff.  As unproduced writers, I feel it’s always in our best interest to produce something that looks and feels as professional as possible.  I do things for a reason, and have my own style, but I try my best to adhere to tried and true format, so if and when someone who matters gives it a look, if nothing else, they’ll know that I know what I’m doing, and that it matters to me as well.

Again, thanks for the compliments.  I too would LOVE to see this play out on the big screen.

The structure is definitely something that many don’t like, or don’t think is acceptable, being different.  I always want to go for the different, whenever possible.  This is actually why I decided to try my hand at screenwriting in the first place…because I was (and still am) so tired of all the cookie cutter movies that Hollywood continues to churn out.  I tried to make literally everything about this different…from the structure, the plotlines, the pacing, the reveals, and the genre norms and clichés.

Suggesting story changes, plot changes, whatever is completely cool and appreciated in here (by me, at least).    I understand what you’re saying about “suddenly appearing characters as well as back story.  In general, I agree with you.

SPOILERS     SPOILERS     SPOILERS     SPOILERS

Not only do I like your suggestion about revealing X much earlier, I’ve toyed with it for a long time.  I’ve actually toyed with all sorts of alternate ways to intro him and make things a bit clearer earlier on, without spoiling the big reveal.  When all was said and done, I always came back to the way it now reads, though.  Things just didn’t quite work or feel right, IMO.  Maybe because, IMO, Tobias doesn’t need any back story or explaining, and since he’s really only involved in the intro and xtro, I found it odd to try and play him up earlier. It just didn’t work.

Really, what I am going for here is on some levels a complete reversal to most horror movies…a killer(s) who is actually revealed long before the finale, but well after the audience has already grown attached to them in a positive way.  IMO, it’s not important exactly why a killer is killing until the end.  In reality, most movies with many kills, barely if ever even provide reasoning…and when they do, it’s usually weak at best.

An earlier draft actually had D &C killing, simply for the “fun of it”…as part of a killing club, much like Hostel, but outside of the controlled situation Hostel offered.  Early readers didn’t like the fact that there wasn’t really any reason for the massacre, and I tended to agree, thus the Xavier angle was introduced, and things too on a new angle altogether.

There is a sequel in the works, actually, and the story is just about complete.  The scene with Carlie and Blacky on the slope at the end, is the set up for the sequel.  He is going to be the new killer up in Telluride.  Did you miss that part?

In the sequel, all the unanswered questions will be explained and things will make a lot more sense.  Kind of like how Hostel 2 answered the questions that were left hanging from the original.  Also, like Hostel 2, my sequel will have a much different feel, because the element of surprise and shock will no longer be a major part of the story.  The sequel will be much more action packed to make up for the lack of surprise, and the body count will be even higher than it is here.  I’ve got some really cool ski scenes already worked out, which will culminate in some wild death scenes like you’ve never seen before.

Hope that helps shed some light, Lew.  Thanks again for your time.

Take care.

Dreamscale, you probably could have written and entire script with the time and effort it took you to respond to everyone's input!

Enjoyed your discussion and insights. Best of luck. I truly hope that Fade To White Fades to Green.

Big Lew

So Satan is Spanish.  A statement of some kind, Jeff?  

Now, this is the only horror script I've read to date, and I haven't watched a 'horror' movie since Friday 13th Part 3 in 3D.  To be honest, it is the only horror movie I've seen, so I have no basis of comparison whatsoever, so I'm just going on how it reads as a script.

Visually this script sings.  I could see it all.  Both the scenes and the action are spelled out clearly and concisely and nothing is left to the mind.  I like your meandering way of changing scenes by following a snowflake.  That is quite catchy.  The only action spot I felt could be changed, was when Danny walked out of the alleyway on page twelve.  I understand, after the credits, that he was leaving the scene of his Jeep/Tire set-up and the killing of the drunk to test his ability to do the job, but the way it is written seems as though he is still driving, and I had to back track to realize he was walking.

"Danny turns onto the main drag", could perhaps be changed to, "Now on foot, Danny exits a small alley onto the main drag."  

Just a small thing, for sure, but I think it is more clear that way.

The ease with which they achieved all of the killing surprised me, but the fact that they were the killers did not.  I don't know why, but when the transformation came over Danny in the shed, it didn't catch me off guard.  I was half expecting it.  Perhaps it was just premonition.  The way you set up Jake with that story about how he hit that guy with the pipe, seemed like it was trying to give the idea that he might be the killer, but I didn't ever feel that he could be.

I did like the characters.  I felt they had very realistic qualities.  Especially Nicole, who was a dead ringer for a young woman named Nicole who used to work with us.  Man, she could be a pain.  I'd hate to be her girlfriend.  Course, Megan doesn't have to put up with that any more, does she?

The pacing was pretty much 'real time', as you've said.  I too felt that the bar scene dragged a little, as a reading, but when shot, in 'chunks', I think it would work just fine.  It does reveal a lot, and does tie our killers to their prey in a fairly believable way.  The dialog seemed very 'herky-jerky', but that is how drunk people act, so I think it would play out okay.

One thing I think could be played up more is the dogs.  Danny only locked up one, and I think maybe the remaining dogs, lost without their mistress might be a greater danger of 'giving up the scheme', so to speak.  Maybe more of threat to leading someone to their bonked mistress, and putting them on their guard.  You know?

I have one question.  When the police were going over the scene of the crime, and the one officer said it was like the previous scene, why did the othe cop say not to go there?

I like the idea of 'filling in the gaps' during the credits.  I always watch credits all the way through, just in case.  Also, if you actually read them, I've seen movies where they throw in bogus joke credits.  I can't think of any of  the top of my head, as the last time I saw one was back in the 80's, but I always watch the credits.  I do have to tell you, though, that I did not pick up on the fact that X was Satan until I saw you explain it above.  Reading back, it should have stuck out like a sore thumb, but hindsight (with knowledge) is always 20/20.  It did explain why Tobias disappeared so quickly in the script, though.    And even though it was the devil who did it. . .

I'm glad Tobias died for killing the child.  There, I said it.  That is my biggest problem with horror/slasher flicks as a whole.  I have a very hard time distancing myself from the human condition in order to see something like this as 'just a work of fiction'.  I feel life is so precious, and it actually hurts me to watch something where life is just wantonly thrown away.  That is why this is the first script of this genre for me, and why I haven't even tried to watch a horror/slasher script in 25 years (or whenever that was).

Your script, however, is a very fine piece of work, Jeff, and you should be proud of your achievement.  It will always make people talk, as the eighteen pages of this thread prove out, so I hope that you are one day rewarded with seeing it on the big screen!!!!

Wow, 18 pages and still going!

This has to be the most discussed script I've seen in my short span I've been here.

I guess a lot of readers/viewers nowadays are more into a lot of action in their horror movies, cutting out slow build ups, probably why Rob Zombies Halloween got slated.

This definitly had the slow build up like Wolf Creek and The Shining, which works well for the big pay off which Fade to White delivers at the end.

I'm intrigued to know what you have planned for the sequal, and hope you start working on it the near future.

Hey Steven, thanks so much for the read and review.

Funny, yeah, in this interpretation, Satan is of Spanish descent.  I kind of picture Anthony Quinn, when he was in his 60’s.  No, no statement being made!

I feel very honored that you broke your self induced “punishment” of not watching or reading horror with my script. Very cool, thanks!

Thanks for the compliments!  I always try and write very visually, but also try to write concisely.  Glad it worked for you.  I also love the snowflake transitions.  Actually, I like any movie that tries something new and inventive in terms of transitions.  I think they’re cool and really add to the view.

I see what you mean on page 12.  I’ll make it obvious he’s walking immediately, so there’s no question.  Good point.

The ease of the vast majority of the kills was due to the element of surprise they had going for them.  I am very surprised you weren’t surprised to find out D & C were killers.  I don’t think a single person has said this.  Not to take away anything from your detective skills, but I just wonder if you hear something about it in passing conversations?  If not, you are quite  impressive, my friend!

Jake was indeed set up to be either a potential killer, or at least a strong foil for whoever turned out to be the antag.

Cool!  So glad you liked the characters.  I really tied to give them life and realistic behavior, as well as unique voices.  They do tend to sound alike at times, but they each have different mannerisms and personalities. The more I read it, the more I learn about them through subtle little things here and there.

Yes, the script plays out in mostly “real time”, and because of that, will hopefully raise the tension as events come together.

The bar scene does drag, but like you, I think it will play out much quicker based on the way it is broken up.  It’s a get to know everyone scene and is meant to play realistically, including the drunk talk and mannerisms.

I hear ya about the dogs.  I focused on Moses only, as he is the “leader” and biggest dog.  No one else is around in the neighborhood, so I don’t think it’ll come into play, but that is a good point for sure.

Originally, the crime scene “scene” was a bit longer and there was more discussion about the similarities between what took place in Steamboat 2 weeks earlier, and this in Durango.  I cut it all out, but left this in to equate the 2 events.  Basically Sherriff Hawkins is telling Officer Moore not to jump to conclusions, because what he basing this on is purely hearsay…neither officer saw the crime scene in Steamboat.

Glad the missing scenes during the credits worked for you.  Many don’t like it.  A great example of how it works to perfection is “Wild Things”.

Yeah, most are still having trouble understanding X is Satan.  That’s why I actually came right out and said it, but people still don’t catch on.  With visuals, it will be very obvious he’s not quite human…and is evil.

Yep, Tobias definitely paid the ultimate price for killing little Joey.  Many don’t like the brutality of killing a kid, which is why it occurs OS, but I did definitely want to make it worth while and be Tobias’ downfall.  You sound like my sister in this regard (which isn’t a bad thing at all, and actually a great thing!).  She is against anything bad or ugly, and has trouble watching, reading, or even hearing about such stuff.  It distorts her mind and she doesn’t want anything like that in there.

Thanks again, Steven.  Your words are much appreciated.

Take care!

Hey Jeff, I’m a little embarrassed to say that I haven’t read this until now.  It’s one of the many scripts I intended to read but as it had many reviews already, thought I’d give a struggling script a read instead.  Also during the OWC I think we had a difference of opinion and, I’m not saying this is why I read this, but I wanted to show that it’s water under the bridge chief lol.

Sorry if I ask questions you’ve answered many times before but I don’t want to read over too many comments in case it gives away and of the story.

Nice opening, and it caught me off guard for some reason.  I love the way you write your descriptions, they’re almost poetic.

I really didn’t expect Tobias to kill Lloyd and his wife so quickly.  Is it me or are Cyndi and Marshall brother and sister?  I think I’ve read it wrong, or is there some incest here lol?  Perhaps they’re husband and wife?

Carlie and Danny seem nice enough characters although I’m not sure about Carlie wanting to go shopping even before they’ve left the airport!  Surely reaching their destination would be first on their list, dropping off their bags and the like?

‘He’s shitface drunk’ Lol, love this line!

I like how you’ve made the snow into a kind of lead, to pull the story along.  I mean, how the snowflakes lead us to various scenes and characters, brilliant.

The introduction of the bunch of characters in the bar was pretty simple and their meeting actually came across quite natural.  I sometimes find that it can be awkward when characters meet in a story, like why would they even talk to each other but here it worked well.

Well that came as shock!  I never saw the sledgehammer attack coming and it was brutal.

When Lisa hits Danny with the log, you write SPLAT!  I don’t know why but I chuckled, I think maybe it doesn’t fit right, it would be more of a thud or whack?

I like the whistling Danny does.  It’s strange but true, if you whistle any tune slowly, you can make it sound eerie.

I like how you waited before revealing Bobby’s broken leg, a nice piece of misdirection.

When Carlie attacks Nicole, she tries to strangle her first, why does she not just stab her in the back when she passes?

Officer Jacobs reaction to the confusing situation is good and I know he’s in a panic but would a police officer really fall for the ‘there’s someone behind you’ routine?

This has probably been pointed out numerous times but you have a typo on the bottom of page 95.  Danny says ‘And how about you Ociffer’.  I’m guessing this is a typo?

This was beautifully written Jeff, I have no complaints about that.  I did think it ran a bit long, the slow build up was a tadge lengthy for what is essentially a slasher flick.  I had trouble picking a protagonist, as you seemed to kill them off with ease...I wouldn’t want to be character in one of your scripts lol.  The Xavier character left me a bit baffled, is he the devil or just a man with money and sick mind?  I also thought he was introduced a little late too.  I did however enjoy your snippets at the end, filling in the story, nice touch.  This was a good read and I was surprised at how quickly I finished reading it.  I thought the story was good but it’s the way you told it that made this stand out.  Really enjoyable.