As I go:

Page 2:  I suppose I tend to imagine things in a Sam Raimi-esque fashion a lot of the time but my initial reaction was that someone walking to the door and being hit by a flying axe was very funny.  The rest seems serious.  Maybe that’s just me though.

Page 4:  Kid says, “Daddy?  I heard noises.”  Tobias says, “I’m afraid not…”  Does he mean, I’m afraid it isn’t Daddy?  Just a little unclear here…kid should probably say “Daddy?” one more time at the end of his line.
I guess I don’t really feel like this opening sequence has much to offer.  We’ve seen scary Germans, naked women, and gunned-down children before…what’s our hook on the violence here?  I sorta get the feeling that what might make it cool is seeing how easy it is to start with no weapon and go kill a bunch of different people in quick succession, but if that’s what is going to set it apart, I think you need to go a little further with that…maybe have him use one more found weapon before getting the gun, or something.

Page 5:  BOSE earphones?  Product placement in a script?  Wouldn’t “expensive earphones” work?
I feel like the dialogue here is a little redundant.  This is a conflict we’re used to.  Carlie wants baby, Danny doesn’t, Danny’s a doctor, they’re on a ski trip.  Gotta be able to do that in half the lines at most.

Page 6:  The scene as they get off the plane adds nothing.  We already know they’re skiers and we definitely already have a sense of menace.  You know what might be cool is if you saved Rosie’s “parents” comment until here.

Page 7:  I really like that Carlie’s klutzy!  I hope that’s used in the script!

Page 10:  They’re starting to compliment each other a little too much for my liking.  I get it, they’re in love…they’re in their 30s, they should be over this.  Unless they’re newlyweds.  Are they newlyweds?  

Page 17:  Jake kinda flip-flops between not wanting this story to be told and participating in the telling.  Kinda strange.

Page 30:  I guess I don’t really have that much to say about all this dialogue stuff.  There’s nothing wrong with it, per se, and I like hang-out time with characters, but at the same time it seems like all this space could be used to develop the story thematically a bit more.  The relationships are well-drawn and so we come to understand them pretty quickly; after that time we are just having fun.  I will have more to say about this once I figure out a little better what this film is about, thematically.
On a side note, mid-20s people should be over talking about how drunk they are while they drink.  The amount of times each character mentions that they’re wasted kinda makes them all sound like dumbasses.  To my eye, anyway.

Page 38:  I dunno if Danny would question Carlie’s drinking quite so obviously in front of a bunch of younger people.  One nice thing about married couples is that they know each other really well, so you might just have him raise an eyebrow and then Carlie whisper her line back to him.  Still don’t know why everyone is so focused on booze, by the way.

Page 41:  “Bone Yard baby…”  Is that the name of the band?

Page 42:  “Holy Moses!”  This joke is really funny but it won’t sell unless we know the dog’s name beforehand.

Page 45:  I like the introduction of Jill and Bobby but it seems kinda odd to me that we cut in between them and Johnny, Janelle, and Martin (great scene there by the way).  Structurally, it’s a bit awkward; it seems like the only reason they’re introduced here is because you wanted a third party to intercut with while the tension starts to rise.  I feel like if we’re going to see them in multiple scenes they should have been introduced earlier.  Maybe they stop by when Danny and Carlie spin out and ask if they need help or something?

Page 50:  Hee hee!  Nice surprise here.  Wasn’t expecting that.  Not sure how you did it but the tension in the whole scene is very palpable.  Good writing!

Page 51:  I think it might be cool if you put the Martin/Janelle scene before the murder.  Leave people with something warm and fuzzy and then get them with the hammer.

Page 62:  I like Jill’s death a lot…funny but scary when thought about.  Makes her character feel a little bit pointless though.  You know what might be really good would be if she saw Jake’s body, or Danny trying to murder Lisa, or something, so that when she died, she was trying to carry vital information to someone.

Page 69:  “He has a funny look on his face”.  This doesn’t really mean anything, especially considering he just killed two people.

Page 74:  Camera direction at the top of the page here…only two in the script so far…I’d lose this one.

Page 75:  Johnny was trying to get Janelle to hold hands, but now when she touches his shoulder and flirts he instantly reminds her of Martin.  Seems like a bit of a flip-flop.

Page 76:  That’s a pretty full sentence that Nicole gets out while being strangled…

Page 77:  Personal preference here but I’ve always found it to be totally classless when women get murdered while naked.  

Page 83:  If Johnny calls Janelle “Beautiful” one more time I’m gonna shoot myself in the head.

Page 85:  “She has an innocence about her…”  Way too late for this kinda description and unnecessary anyway.  We’ve got it, we know what she’s like.
Hey ho.  Is she hearing Johnny being killed in the kitchen?  If so, this is a flashback and the first moment of non-chronological storytelling in the entire script.  I would avoid this.

Page 95:  I forgot about Carlie’s klutziness!  I wish that had come up more in the script…a klutzy female killer would be very enjoyable…
Is he supposed to say “Ociffer”?
“Carlie pulls the trigger twice.  There's a loud BANG! BANG!”  Fairly redundant description…

Page 102:  How could Hawkins possibly know a butcher knife is missing from the kitchen?

Page 105:  You don’t choose the music.  Or when the credits start, for that matter…I ignored the smaller instances of musical choice but this is all a bit much.
I guess I see why you made it clear that this stuff was during the credits.  Kinda neat idea, I suppose.  I’m not sure whether I like it or not…maybe the parts that you have here is stuff best left unsaid?

Thoughts:

Lotsa plot and no story.  Enjoyable stuff, but what's the point?  You have interesting, well-drawn characters with great natural conflict, but they just don't grow.  No-one learns anything.  No themes or morals are presented.  No point is made.

What are you trying to say?  Is it in there somewhere?  Did I miss it?  The writing is decent and the twists are great, but this isn't going anywhere without an actual story to tell.

Maybe your response will give me a little bit to go on.

Thanks for the reading experience!  Probably filled my violence quota for the day

On an unrelated note I think you've left this script very open in terms of budget size.  Easy enough to shoot for $300,000 up, in my opinion.  Good job on that.

Hey Chris, thanks so much for the read and comments.  Totally appreciate it.  I’ll give you my response based on the page # you were referencing…

Page 2:  It’s supposed to be very serious in terms of the plot and definitely the violence.  Hopefully, it’s just you!

Page 4:  Yes, Tobias means it isn’t Daddy.  Daddy just got killed in the pool.  I hear you and see where it could be misleading.  I’ll look at it again…thanks.

The opening sequence is supposed to set the stage here for what’s to follow…a lot of graphic violence, and the fact that nothing is sacred and no one is safe.  I really tried to make each and every kill, unique, violent, and memorable.  The highlight here is how Cyndi is gunned down through a floor to ceiling plate glass window.

Page 5:  Yes,  product placement!  Actually, there’s quite a bit of product placement.  IMO, done the right way, it really adds to the realism of a script or film.  Yes, much of the dialogue is redundant…I know.  It could all easily be trimmed down, but I really like the feel of it now, and until someone tells me I have to cut it down, I won’t.

Page 6:  The scene as they get off the plane comes into play much later, as you probably realize now.

Page 7:  I like that Carlie’s klutzy too.  I actually had this “theme” play into more scenes earlier, but most have been cut out.  I think the only remaining “klutzy” scene is at the end.

Page 10:  Everyone seems to agree that they are too cutesy.  It’s funny to me, because I see this kind of relationship all the time, as most of my family and even friends act this way…it’s almost kind of a joke in a way, but they do love each other.  They like messing with each other as well.  No, they are definitely not newlyweds…they’ve been together since college.  

Page 17:  Yeah, Jake kinda flip-flops a lot period when he drinks.  Very mild mannered and polite most of the time, but get him ripped and you don’t know what’s going to happen.

Page 30:  Thank you for being one of the few who doesn’t have a big problem with the bar scene and all its unnecessary banter.  It definitely doesn’t need to be here but it kind of sets the flow and feel again, and I like the deliberately slow, ponderous build up, as long as there’s a killer payoff, and that’s what I went for here.

Thanks, glad the characters and their relationships seem real to you.  Very important to the script here and definitely what I was after.

Others have mentioned the talk about being wasted as well.  IMO, I don’t see a lot of it, but guess that’s just how I am maybe?

Page 38:  I hear you, but IMO it’s OK the way it is now.

Yep, I guess you’re right; everyone is pretty focused on booze here!  Funny.

Page 41:  The Bone Yard is a heavy metal music channel on XM Satellite Radio, featuring such artists as Metallica, KISS, AC/DC, Rush, Aerosmith, Mötley Crüe, Cheap Trick, Ozzy Osbourne, Def Leppard, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, and Megadeth.

Page 42:  Yeah, good point about Moses.  Bobby uses his name a little later on the page, but this is the first onscreen intro…I’ll look into fixing it up…thanks

Page 45:  Cool!  Glad you like Bobby and Jill…many do not.  I did want to intro another option here…another possible savior, foil, or potential victim.  Thanks, really happy you like the scenes at the bar with Marty and Janelle.  I considered introing them at another time, but decided this worked best.  Good point and idea, though!

Page 50:  Thank you…so glad this worked as it’s obviously the crux of the whole thing.  The long, slow build up is what makes this hit hard, IMO.

Page 51:  Good point.  I’ve gone back and forth about the exact placement of these scenes.  I’ll give them another look.

Page 62:  Cool! I also love Jill’s demise…as you know she turns out to be the only survivor.  I did consider having her “see” something, but decided against it.  Good idea though.

Page 69:  Good point…just trying to give an “open” look at Danny…as in however the actor and director feels works and looks best.  Danny is quite the enigma, actually.  It’s tough to really figure out what his deal is.

Page 74:  Yeah, I did everything I could to eliminate all camera directions, but I felt like I needed this one for the reveal of why he’s been just sitting there acting odd the whole time.

Page 75:  Johnny is just Johnny.  It’s the way he rolls, so to speak.  He’s used to getting what he wants and he knows how to make it happen.

Page 76:  I don’t know, I don’t see it as a problem, but I hear what you’re saying.

Page 77:  Have to disagree, or just throw out my personal preference that I enjoy seeing women getting murdered while naked.  You don’t see it very often, and that in itself is kind of cool, IMO.  

Page 83:  Yes, you caught on to Johnny’s ways.  He calls every woman, “Beautiful”.  A definite character trait of his.

Page 85:  Good point about the “aside” here.  I could definitely lose it.

Yes, she is hearing Johnny being killed in the kitchen.  And this is a good “catch” here.  Everything is in “real time”.  It’s basically just showing “her scene” right after Johnny got taken out.  Do you have a suggestion on how to write this better?

Page 95:  Return of “Klutzo”!

Yes, he is supposed to say “Ociffer”?  Kind of a joke, as in mocking him…like when you’re pulled over and you’ve been drinking, you want to sound as sober as you can, and the first thing out of your mouth is a slur.

Yeah, I guess, but it doesn’t really take up any extra space or anything.

Page 102:  At this point, a number of people have already gone through the place and they saw firsthand the injuries to Megan and Nicole.  They don’t know for a fact this was the killing instrument, but old Hawk’s been around and has an eye for this.

Page 105:  You should have seen the script in its first incarnation!  I actually did choose the entire soundtrack, but agreed with everyone that it was foolish.  I left this in for the Hell of it, as it’s at the end of the script, so I didn’t really care if anyone was opposed to it.  Same deal with the credits thing.

I always really appreciate when a movie does something different while the credits roll.  It’s a great way to keep butts in their seats and also answers a lot of questions you may have had.

Here’s the part I really want to comment on and even open this up for discussion.

“Lotsa plot and no story.” – Hmmm, I have to disagree with you here.  First of all, I always have difficulty distinguishing plot and story.  Here’s one definition…“A story is a series of events recorded in their chronological order.  A plot is a series of events deliberately arranged so as to reveal their dramatic, thematic, and emotional significance.”
Enjoyable stuff, but what's the point?  The point is an enjoyable, thrill ride, structured unlike anything you’ve seen before, involving interesting, well-drawn characters with great natural conflict that hopefully, you’ll want to route with, fear for, and even cheer on, maybe.  I’m not big into characters having to grow, per se…especially in a horror movie.  Instead of having to grow, the protagonists have to survive and the antagonists have to get away with it.  Actually, everyone learns something or another in here…most don’t live long enough for it to matter, though.  The kids (and Officer Jacobs) all learn not to trust a book by its cover.  Danny and Carlie learn very important life lessons, although they’re not revealed quite yet (they will be in the sequel, where many such questions are answered and everything is made much clearer).  Themes and morals are actually presented…they’re just left open for each individual to draw their own conclusions on.  You did understand the Xavier stuff, right?  Which is actually the whole crux of the plot, just revealed at a very strange and late time.

What I’m trying to say is rather ambivalent, and that’s obviously done on purpose.  IMO, there are so many things one can draw from this.  On the surface it may come across as very simplistic, but there’s a lot going on, actually.

This isn’t going anywhere without an actual story to tell. – I hope you’re not correct, here, Chris.  If you think about it, what are most horror movies trying to say or tell?  What’s to be gotten from watching a masked killer kill a bunch of stupid, cartoon-like characters, running around in the woods?  Or a creature killing the same canon fodder?  IMO, a script or movie doesn’t have to be anymore than what it is, and if it’s a fun, horrific, intense thrill ride with wild, unexpected twists and turns, a no holds barred blood bath finale, and another completely unexpected twist ending?  IMO, that’s all it needs to be.

Actually, I see this with a budget of at least $5 Million.  I’d prefer the budget to be closer to $10 Million, actually.  In talking with Indie Producers, done on the cheap cheap, 1 guy said he could do it for $1 Million, while another said it would be closer to $3 Million.  Obviously, it would all depend on the cast.  I can always dream, right?

Thanks again, Chris.  Hopefully I’ve cleared up a few things.  I’d love to hear your thoughts back, if you have any.  If you have anything you’d like me to look at, just let me know and I’m all over it.

Take care!

Holy shit, you have a bunch of reviews.  Well, i didn't read any of them before i read your script.  Anyways, what i did was write notes as i read your script and then i wrote a summary of what i thought.

•Intriguing title
•I sort of feel like an idiot, but your first scene labeled Steamboat Springs, Co, at first, I thought it was Steamboat Springs Company not Colorado.  I guess I’m just not familiar with the area.
•P. 3.  I don’t know if I would be swimming naked with my girlfriend if my parents were in the same house.
•P. 3 – shotgun is one word.  You have it as one word a page before but here you have it as two.
•P. 4.  I don’t think you hit turbulence as much as you experience turbulence.
•P. 16.  To spice-up the wording, might want to change puking to projectile vomiting.
•P. 18.  After Johnny gives the moral of the story, I’d love it if someone said “A little puke wouldn’t stop me.”
•The scenes riding from the airport and the bar scene are dragged out.  There’s important information being revealed but some of the dialogue seems superfluous.  If each page is a minute on screen, the bar scene is around twenty minutes long.  Might lose the audience with such a lengthy scene.
•P. 33 “I’m just kidding Lees, there’s nothing wrong with your small breasts.”
•P. 37 I’m not sure why Danny wouldn’t change the tire.  Seems like a hassle to call AAA just to change a tire.
•P. 49. “A man’s got to do what a man’s go to do.”  Cliche
•This feels like a 48 hours mystery
•P. 65 some of the crew is still downtown.
•P. 72 Meg should protest that Carlie is married
•P. 73:  You have both killers saying “Holy shit” when they’re splattered with blood.  I don’t really like that.  What do they expect to happen when they smash a person with a sledge hammer or cut someone’s throat at close range?  Maybe you should word it where holy shit is said in like a sexual pleasure way.
•I’m not positive but I believe that a lot of the V.O.s you have can be turned to O.S.s.
•P. 78  Could have a morbid joke about Meg and Nicole being in the closet (lesbians).  Might go with “dead in the shed” line.
•P. 95 Typo – occifer to officer
•Seems to convenient that Carlie and Danny’s tire blew out.  
•P. 101 Why can’t Moore go there? (talking about murders at Steamboat Springs)
•P. 105 Why do you have the credits roll here?  Most people would leave at this point.
•Wasn’t sure what was going on with the end at first.  You should probably mark this FLASHBACK
•I’m pretty sure an audience would be annoyed with 20 seconds of credits every minute

The beginning scene made me think that there were going to be mysterious killings throughout the movie by some German guy.  The FADE TO WHITE put a good image in my head.  However, the movie’s pace was too slow for me.  I was reading page 65 and some of the people were still downtown near the bar.  The dialogue was real and very true to characters, but a lot of it could have been cut.  For instance, what was the point of the story of the wild time in Cancun?  And then why did you tell us that Jake bashed some dude in the head with a pipe?  The stories might have added a little to character development, but they didn’t really add to the overall story.  I wasn’t sure what was up with the old neighbors, and I didn’t know what the point of keeping the old lady alive was.
     
As with most horror/slasher flicks, there doesn’t seem to be any motive for the killings.  The killings supposedly empowers people, but why do Carlie and Danny need to get with Xavier to kill someone?  Xavier might have been funding the killings, but I wasn’t sure why Carlie and Danny needed money to kill someone when the people being killed were selected at random.  Why not just drive to another county and kill someone at the Seven-Eleven?  It seems like going on expensive trips to kill people is pretty conspicuous.

The ending in between credits doesn’t work for me.  It seems sort of like all the questions that the audience might have are being answered in the last two minutes of the movie.  

Overall, the movie could be improved by giving the killers a motive.  I thought you were going to turn the Jake-pipe story into a motive of some sort.  I honestly thought Danny was the bouncer.  Also, maybe drop subtle hints about Carlie and Danny being the killers.  Streamline the story by cutting dialogue.  You might have to add some more scenes for time, but I believe that’d be a good thing.

Hope this helps,
JP

Thanks for the read and review, JP.  Totally appreciate it. You brought up some good points and caught some things that have gone unnoticed for years.

•Steamboat Springs is a major CO ski resort town.  Durango is as well, not nearly as well known, nice, or upscale.

•P. 3.  Cyndi is Marshall’s wife.  Marshall is Lloyd’s son.  You actually have given me a great idea here that I’ve been meaning to work on.  I think a few extra lines in here would make this whole “scene” a bit clearer.  I’ll make it crystal clear why it’s no big deal going skinny dipping.  Thanks.

•P. 3  shotgun is one word.  Damn good catch!  WOW, I can’t believe this has escaped all this time.  Thanks!

•P. 4.  At first, I thought you may be right, but I looked up turbulence, and many actual reports speak of “hitting turbulence”.

•P. 18.  Funny!  I may add something like that here.

•Here’s a topic I want to explain a bit (and have explained many times by now).  Basically, every scene after the intro is dragged out…especially the bar scene.  It’s purposely done this way to create a certain tone and feel, although many do not like or appreciate it.  You’re right, there is important information being revealed but much of the dialogue is definitely superfluous.  Yeah, the old 1 page equals a minute on screen time rule of thumb, is simply that…a rule of thumb. You can’t assume every page of text works this way.  Action and dialogue are very different in terms of how they play out on screen.  For instance, this bar scene is basically all dialogue, and it’s back and forth dialogue that pretty much is fired out without pauses.  It will play out on screen much, much quicker than it appears and it will also play out much more interesting than you’d think, as we have 9 main characters talking, as well as lots of background action and “noise” taking place.  Also, if you notice, there are several different scenes within the bar scene, involving different groups, so the dynamics will always be different, and hopefully, interesting and entertaining as well. Many have agreed that I will lose the audience here, but I really don’t think so.

•P. 33 I really didn’t want to use the word “small” here, as there hasn’t been anything said about her breasts before.  Basically, Nicole is just being a bitch, and few if any have as nice a rack as she does, and she knows it.

•P. 37 It’s snowing so hard, first of all, and secondly, he blew the tire on purpose, as you now know, so he wanted this accident to take place, so they could get into their house with them.
P. 49  “A man’s got to do what a man’s go to do.”  Cliché – Yes, it is…I actually enjoy using some cliché’s every now and then, but I like using them in places where they come across as odd or funny to me.

•This feels like a 48 hours mystery – Aw…one of my favorite shows!

•P. 65 some of the crew is still downtown. – I don’t understand this comment.  Yes, Johnny, Janelle, and Martin are still at the Horny Toad.

•P. 73:  The thing is that both “killers” have never killed before, so they aren’t prepared for the blood, etc.  It seems like this is a point I need to drive home somehow.  It’s not a sexual pleasure thing at all, but many have suggested something like this.  D & C are doing for 1 reason and 1 reason only…THE MONEY!

•A V.O. shows that the character is nowhere near the actual scene.  An O.S. shows that the character is just off screen, as in, he’s in the scene, but the camera isn’t on him.

•P. 78  Yeah, kinda like that idea, actually toyed with it a bit, but couldn’t make it really work.   The “dead in the shed” line is a tip of my hat to Mr. Tarantino from Pulp Fiction, where Bruce Willis says, “Zed’s dead, baby. Zed’s dead.”

•P. 95 Typo – occifer to officer – No, actually, it’s an inside joke that no one seems to be getting.  It’s an on purpose slur to mock the cop.

•Seems too convenient that Carlie and Danny’s tire blew out – as you now know, it was planned all along.

•P. 101 Why can’t Moore go there? (talking about murders at Steamboat Springs) – Sheriff Hawkins doesn’t want rumors starting about a mass murderer killing innocent people in ski towns.

•P. 105 Why do you have the credits roll here?  Cause I think it’s a cool thing to do.  Ever seen “Wild Things”?  It’s a great example of how this works.  Most people would leave at this point.  This is the reason to do this…to keep the butts in their seats and actually watch the credits.

•Wasn’t sure what was going on with the end at first.  You should probably mark this FLASHBACK – I guess I could, actually.

•I’m pretty sure an audience would be annoyed with 20 seconds of credits every minute – I doubt it.  I for one actually love when a movie offers stuff as the credits roll.  There are several possible ways to make it work.

The beginning scene made me think that there were going to be mysterious killings throughout the movie by some German guy.  – That’s exactly what I wanted you to be thinking.

I understand that some people don’t like the meandering pace in the first half.  That changes drastically though as the 2nd half rolls around…kind of like 2 flicks in 1.

I was reading page 65 and some of the people were still downtown near the bar.  – Yes, and what does that mean?  There are 3 stories going on at once here.  The idea is that you should understand that at some time, all will come together somehow, and all will be in some type of peril.

The dialogue was real and very true to characters, but a lot of it could have been cut.   – Agreed, but I definitely was going for a talky script.  I know many don’t like this aspect of it.  Thanks for the compliment.

The point of the story is so that the readers/viewers all of a sudden start thinking that maybe Jake is going to turn out to be an antag.  Or, that Jake will definitely be a tough foil for whomever the antag proves to be.  He’s already killed a guy, so he should put up quite a fight and could be the savior here…but, as it turns out, he’s not only the first to go, but he doesn’t even put up a fight.  I actually think this is why the initial kill scene with Jake in the shed hits so hard…at least that is what I was trying to accomplish here.

Why are you referring to Bobby and Jill as “the old neighbors”?  They are both in their 30’s…same age as Danny and Carlie.  The point of keeping Jill alive is twofold…first of all, as a surprise, as I’m sure no one thought she was still kicking it.  Secondly, she may come into play in the sequel, as she’s the only survivor…who knows what she knows or saw?  She’s not an old lady!
    
Apparently, you didn’t get the actual “plot” here…the motives for the killings.  Again, you are not alone in this, and although I have tried everything I can think of (even coming right out and literally saying it), it’s just not getting through for some reason.  I honestly believe that it will be much clearer in a filmed version, because the visuals for Xavier will give it away.  Yes, X does say that killing empowers people, but that’s really not what it’s all about.  Danny and Carlie don’t need X to kill, and until now, they never had any desire to kill.  They do have that certain something that allows them to kill, but that’s it.  X needs them to do his bidding.  Maybe if you reread the last few scenes with Carlie talking to Blacky and then the first missing scene in X’s office, it will make more sense.

X is not funding any killings.  He is funding Danny’s new office…that is what D & C are getting out of the “deal”. What is X getting, though?

X makes the rules about where and when the killings take place and he has his reasons (which aren’t revealed here).  If you think about who he is though, it may be clearer why he wants random people killed in upscale ski resorts.

In the original draft, many moons ago, there was absolutely no motive for the killings and initial reaction was that they should have a motive.  They do have a motive now, it’s just a bit ambiguous and I see that you didn’t get it.

Definitely didn’t want any hints at all about D & C being potential antags.  Wanted it to come as a complete shock.  Actually, there are a few little clues buried here and there that could lead one to believe they may not be who they seem, but few if any have actually seen them or noticed them.

This does help. Thanks JP, I appreciate it.   Feel free to respond to any and all my comments.  I don’t mean to argue or anything like that, but I always am going to state my case about the hows, whats, and whys.

Take care!

To strengthen the part with Jake...forget mentioning the fight in dialogue...have him get involved in a brutal fight there and then.

That will make the opening more visually interesting, throw in a curveball that he could be the killer and also strengthen the part where he gets killed.

Hey Rick, thanks for jumping in here.  You know I love a good back and forth.

I realize that I have a rep for not wanting to listen to anything anyone says in terms of making changes, when it comes to my scripts.  It's not actually true, though...I do listen, I do contemplate, and then I do what I feel works, or makes the most sense.

You bring up a good point here, and actually one that was brought up a long time ago that I considered...and still am not really apposed to, if it came from someone who was going to be in charge (and it was a necessity to getting this made).

Here's my take on it though...

For me, throwing anything into a script that is such a huge (obvious) red herring, kind of defeats the intention...as it's just so obvious then that it's either a red herring or Jake is a psycho.  I prefer little clues that many won't even catch.

But more importantly, I really want the script to play out slowly for as long as possible, as I really like the feel and flow it creates.  I know the vast majority do not agree with me here at all, and I understand why. I really do.

Adding a big fight in the bar (or something else along that line) really changes things up and takes away from the laid back "good times" going on here.  It would also really alter Jake's character, as well as the interplay that takes place here.  Many people keep bringing up the fact that up until the killings (and even during them) there really isn't much (or any) conflict), which is true.  I made a conscious effort to bring about tension in a very different way, without conflict, and without endless chase sequences, which I absolutely despise.

I am not one who believes everything in a script/movie has to hum along and be so important to the overall plot/story.

I like "different", and if you knew me in person, you'd definitely see what I'm talking about.  Almost everything I do...and think, is "different".  My friends laugh and make jokes about various things I do and believe (good hearted jokes, BTW, not like they're making fun of me).  The funny thing is that once they see the method to my madness, many actually not only understand why or how I do certain things, they even start doing it that way as well...cause it makes sense  It's quite funny, actually.

The vast majority of things that I really like or love, are things that most don't get, like, or understand...or even want to understand.  I kind of like it that way.

You do bring up a great point though, and it's appreciated!  Thanks.

Hey Jeff.  Some of the notes I took were more for me, like the p. 65 note about the guys still being downtown.  I had this as a note to me because it was over halfway through and some of the people were still near the bar.  The 48 hours thing was a comment for tone, which I thought was good.

And my bad on the “old neighbors comment.”  I’m not sure how I misread their description.  I guess I was thinking that the guy was old because he wasn’t getting out of his chair, and the two had a ton of dogs.  Besides the initial description, there was nothing to tell me that the people weren’t old.

I reread the pages with Xavier, and I guess I just don’t get the motive still.  (The killing kids thing is similar to one of my favorite movies: In Bruges)  I just don’t see how the promise of a new office will be motivation enough to go on a killing spree.  I guess people are being recruited to kill others so they can witness the fragility of life.

No, I definitely understand you defending your script.  I know you wanted constructive criticism and I tried to give that.  

JP

I hear you.

You've got to do it your own way to some degree anyway...better to stand and fall on your own beliefs, so at least you know where you stand.

Just to add to the conversation....there's two issues that may or may not be relevant. The first is that a writer of your skill should be able to disguise red herrings without making it too obvious, just make it an organic part of the story. Plus you can layer information, add other bits and pieces that cast suspicion elsewhere so the audience is constantly engaged and guessing.

The second is that what is obvious to people like you and me is not necessarily obvious to the general public.

We understand structure and have seen all the tricks in the book. Most people don't have the same dialogue with a film, they just watch it and get emotionally involved in it and go with the flow, if you like.

JP, thanks for staying the discussion.

You definitely did provide constructive criticism, and I appreciate that.  In terms of “defending” my script, I believe that everyone should…as long as they truly believe in what they did, and have something to defend.  We’re all so different that it only makes sense that there will be differing views and the like.

OK, so back to the main plot, which again, is purposely ambiguous.  I’ve come right out before and stated what it is, but I don’t want to continue doing that.  So…I’ll draw your attention to the following pages for clarification (if you’re so inclined)…and then, I’ll get to your script.

Page 104, bottom half of the dialogue between Carlie and Blackbourn is the first clue to what’s going down and “who” Xavier is.

Page 105 – Xavier’s description comes right out and tells you exactly “who” he is.

Page 106 – Another description of X should let you know he’s not your everyday baddie.

Page 107 – Another description of X’s appearance that isn’t quite right.  Also, X’s speech should give away a lot of info as to who he is and what he’s after.

Hope that helps.  I’ve found that many are glancing through the end and not really “reading” what they’re reading, as they think everything’s done by this point.  With visuals, again, I think it would be much clearer.

Thanks, man. Let me know if you get anything more now.

BTW...One thing that I would have to call you out on is this comment:

"I made a conscious effort to bring about tension in a very different way, without conflict".

It's basically impossible. I think you really know this yourself:

"Adding a big fight in the bar (or something else along that line) really changes things up and takes away from the laid back "good times" going on here."

You're deliberately avoiding conflict and by definition, avoiding tension in your story.

Suspense or tension, is the feeling of uncertainty and interest about the outcome of certain actions an audience perceives.

The key to it though is this: There has to be a perceived danger AND, crucially, a ray of hope. The hope is of critical importance because the feeling danger creates without hope is merely despair.

Tension cannot exist without conflict. It is a by product of conflict.

For instance. A man has to diffuse a bomb, the time is running out. Tension is created by the perceived danger that he is going to die and by the ray of hope that he can stop it before it explodes.

The equation is set in stone..it's just a part of human psychology. If in that instance it is made impossible for the protagonist to stop the bomb, all the tension disappears.

IMHO there's only one part of your script that is really tense...the face-off when the Police appear and there is the dispute over the identity of the killer. It works because of what I've just said...there is the knowledge that she is in danger and the hope that she can survive. The second she isn't believed all that tension goes.

It's commendable that you want to forge your own path, but I would be careful about how far you stray from certain things. We can play with structure and story lines, but human psychology works in quite predictable ways when it comes to drama.

Rick

Hey Rick, love the discussion, BTW!  Thanks.

First of all, in response to your earlier post, I agree with your 2 issues…

I could and can disguise red herrings when necessary.  I could add some sort of violent act from Jake and make it come off as no big deal…just a character trait…BUT…that would be a very obvious character trait, that Jake doesn’t really have.  I could do it though for sure…you’re correct.

You’re definitely correct about you, I, and the general public, and that’s not to say anything negative about the general public at all.  Point is that this is not supposed to be a script/movie for the general public.  I do think the general public would enjoy it, as it has many elements from many different genres that will come off well on screen, IMO.

OK, now on to your last post about conflict and tension.  Maybe I misspoke in what I said, or how I said it.  Let me try again…

I made a conscious effort to bring about tension in a very different way, without conflict between the characters.

The characters don’t feel the tension or danger most of the script, because nothing happens that would allude them to what’s going on.  D & C seem like really cool people and nothing they say or do contradicts that.

Jake doesn’t even get a chance to defend himself, cause he has nothing to fear in Danny, as far as he knows. ..the audience doesn’t either.  But, when Lisa goes out to the shed with Danny, not knowing Jake is already dead, the audience does know, and should be feeling major tension for what’s about to go down.

Same deal with Carlie, when she first goes upstairs and talks with Meg in the closet…neither Meg, nor the audience has anything to fear in Carlie (although, since Danny has already outed himself, there is a good possibility that Carlie’s in on it as well, in the audience’s mind).  Once we know Carlie is also a killer, the tension should be high again when she stumbles into the bathroom with Nicole…Nicole doesn’t have anything to fear in her mind, but we should be fearing for her.

In your example, if we the audience know that a bomb is about to blow up, but a character has no clue, that’s tension, IMO, done in a different way than the norm.  We know and fear, but the character has no clue and in many ways, to me at least, that’s much scarier and more intense than having the guy trying to defuse a ticking bomb that he is fully aware of.

Does that make sense?  You’re right, I do like forging my own trails, and will continue to try. If it doesn’t work, then I guess I’ll have to try and play nice and color within the lines.

Thanks Rick.

In theory I agree with what you are saying here.

In reference to Fade, the problem I had with this is that I didn't care about the cast particularly.

The reason for that is two fold.

1. We started following D & C from the beginning. So my sympathy, or point of view was with them from the start.

2. The rest of them aren't doing anything..they aren't actively seeking something in the story...so they have no dramatic purpose in the story and therefore I have no interest in them as a viewer.

That's the problem with mixing things up a bit...you have to make sacrifices elsewhere ususally. By following D & C from the start you disguise their role as killers, but make them the emotional centre of the film...so your extended cast just become body count.

One thing that you might think about is creating tension not by structural change (although that's what I would personally do)...nor by creating more conflict between the characters, but by creating more conflict within the two killers.

At the moment they are quite emotionless about the damage they are doing. If they were more repentant, reluctant about it and we're essentially trying not to do it you'd be posing a lot more dramatic questions because you'd be adding an element of doubt about whether they are going to continue the killing spree and also raising questions about why they were doing it....which would also significantly strenghten the twist at the end.

Rick.  

Great points, Rick.  I've considered this and should probably bite the bullet and actually do it.

The thing about D & C is that originally, they were simply killers, so they didn't have any remorse and actually enjoyed what they were doing.  Why?  No clue.  But, I changed things up long ago and altered their story line (by adding X and his "motivations").  I never changed any of the reactions of D &C like I should have and actually needed to.  There's also a few great opportunities where I could make things a bit more clear even about X and what's going down.

I think I'll actually do it, damnit!  Thanks.

As for saying the group of kids is nothing more than body count...isn't that really all everybody is in horror scenarios?  I mean seriously, take any slasher or creature feature, and you pretty well know that everyone is either going to die, almost die, be a killer, or save the day.  You know?  That's one reason I wanted everyone's "status" to be somewhat up in the air until the killing takes off.

I've got some ideas and it appears it's time to make some changes.  We'll see how it turns out.

Thanks again!

Congratulations Jeff! Your script now has over 300 posts!!!!! You deserve it. You read a lot. More than anyone else probably. Now you need to write a new feature though. We're waiting.