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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Unproduced Screenplay Discussion    Horror Scripts  ›  Fade to White Moderators: bert
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Dreamscale
Posted: April 30th, 2011, 12:30pm Report to Moderator
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HaHa...c'mon now...there are nice people in my scripts...aren't there?  I did definitely lay it on thick how nice, goofy, and cute they were, and early on, most readers hated them just for the fact that they were so nice and cute, which always surprised me.


Didn't you expect Tobias to show up and start killing again?  That was definitely the plan.

Tell Wonka not to read the draft posted here, s it's quite old.  Have her hold out a few days till the rewrite is complete.

Thanks again!
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leitskev
Posted: April 30th, 2011, 12:32pm Report to Moderator
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I actually read this closely last night too, when I first read. I'm not sure if you are trying to suggest Xavier is Satan, or just Satanic, or the leader of some Satanic cult. It really isn't clear to me, so I will just let you spell it out.

Eight huh?  Guess they missed one.
Danny actually killed a guy in town
before we got started...said he needed
to make sure he could go through
with it.
--This one last night seemed like a possible later add on that resulted from other reviews. I suspected people complained that Danny did not seem like a first time killer when he killed Jake.

Was there another murder before Jake that I missed somehow?

If Jake's first murder was not actually seen in the script, then that is another huge missed opportunity. As the heart of this movie is about the killing experience, we absolutely need to see Danny's first kill.

Ok, I will have more thoughts after your explanation for the end. Thanks!
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leitskev
Posted: April 30th, 2011, 12:34pm Report to Moderator
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I was always wondering how you would tie Tobias in to it. I had no clue. All I knew was that couple had to be the opposite of what you were setting them up as. But no, I didn't find them annoying.
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Dreamscale
Posted: April 30th, 2011, 12:57pm Report to Moderator
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Yes, Xavier is actually Satan.  He searches out "good people" in need of something, of a "certain mindset" (not opposed...or maybe "open" to killing to get what they want/need), and makes them an offer they can't refuse.

The idea is that once they make their deal with X, they become empowered, different people.  They look at life completely differently.  They do and are capable of things they never would have really even considered before.  They come to enjoy it.

Carlie tells Blacky that she believes they can close the doors that X opened, and that she's still the same person she was.  This is actually the segway into the sequel, in which things are very different, questions/confusions are answered, and Blacky is the main star.  I've pretty much got it written in my head, but never put it down on paper yet, because this continues to evolve/change and I want to get this right before I start the new one.

I know it's ambiguous and I want it to be. I want it to be open for each person to have their own ideas and I want it up for debate. I just never thought so many people would be completely clueless.

Danny killed the old drunk guy when he parked the car.  You didn't see who did the killing, so you hopefully thought it was Tobias, or maybe even one of the kids.

The initial thoughts came to me as I was sitting on the patio of a ski chalet in Durango, over the Christmas Holidays.  It was dumping snow, and my girlfriend and I were having a smoke and relaxing. I had been thinking of possible ideas for a script for a few months and everything I was coming up with, or wanting to do, was very cliche, very Texas Chainsaw Massacre setup.

I heard what sounded like a blowout up on the highway, and I thought to myself, what if I flip the old "innocent kids walk into a nightmare situation when their car breaks down" and turn it all upside down.  It started there and morphed into what it is.
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leitskev
Posted: April 30th, 2011, 2:12pm Report to Moderator
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I actually totally got the Satan thing on first read, but was not sure if it's Satan in reality or something more symbolic. And like you said, that's how you wanted it, vague, ambiguous. That's why I really didn't discuss it as a plot specific. But I did get it. In fact, you even said he looks "Satanic" I think.

I still think, strongly, what I said last night, and I suspect part of you has been thinking the same thing for a long while. And that is that the plot revealed at the end should really be the story. Carlie and Danny are the main characters. Everyone else is a prop. So the story needs to be built more around their process of succumbing to evil.

A story about that process is not original. But your developing it around the notion that nothing makes you feel more alive than killing is somewhat original.

I would definitely suggest something like this, as an exercise to start. Write, as a short story, not a script, the tale of Carlie and Danny. What makes them tick.What is their history, as a couple, but also individually. How are they different? And does this affect the dynamic between them? How do they meet Xavier? Why do they agree to this?

If you have these details filled out, if nothing else, the dialogue and actions of Carlie and Danny in Fade will really be a lot sharper. But what I think you would really find is that their story is much more interesting, and you would build it into a new Fade.

Has anyone requested a hero? A good guy at least, someone to root for? You have all kinds of opportunity, and he/she can be sparse in appearance in the script. Maybe a mercenary , or detective, or a hitman...has lost a loved one to the work of Xavier. Maybe's someone who used to work for him. In any case, he tries to stop Xavier's people from killing, and Xavier sets him up with clues.

BTW; why would Satan care about killing children?

I actually had totally forgot about the old drunk. But what I said still applies. His first kill is a critical development in his progression to evil. We should see what's in his eyes when it happens.

Ok Jeff, good luck with the rewrite. Don't know if I helped as much as the other more experienced commentators, but I tried.

Oh, the bar scene. almost forgot. Do you remember my fight scene from ghost catcher, in the bar, when they were having a philosophical/theological discussion? I know you didn't like that scene, but here's what I was trying to do: I wanted to have this discussion, but to keep the audience awake, I mixed in the fight. It's a little Hollywoodish, not very realistic, but you have to admit, it would keep the audience more awake than if I just had them discuss this in the bar.

As a more experienced writer, maybe you could pull this off better than I did. It doesn't have to be a fight, just something to add tension. Maybe the bar loses power, and they stay open by candle light waiting for power to return(yes, I've done that many times, so it happens). Maybe they get in a Karaoke contest. Or maybe they do get in a fight. Something to create tension and interest.

And I do realize that this is much longer in pages than in minutes. But it still seems to run at least 10 minutes. Long time for a quiet bar scene in a horror movie. And I think the big thing is this: we don't really get to know these characters much later, and their purpose is really just to die. They are just props for Carlie and Danny's development.

Ok Jeff. Lakers suck.
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Dreamscale
Posted: April 30th, 2011, 2:56pm Report to Moderator
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Kevin, your feedback is extremely helpful and insightful.  I'll PM you a few other things later/tomorrow, as I do have complete backstory and character profiles for everyone.  Alot had to be cut out, or just didn't make the final cut and maybe that's a problem.

I'm leaving for the day.  HUGE UFC card tonight!!!

Lakers will coast into the Championship!!!  We'll see what happens with Boston and Miami, as I really don't know what to expect.
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DietCokehead
Posted: August 3rd, 2011, 1:25pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Jeff,

While I doubt I can shed any new light on this heavily reviewed script, I'll go ahead anyway. This is my first review here on SS, so please bare with me.

**SPOILERS**


I can see that you have a real knack for description. None of it seemed excessive, but it was very well written and I got some great visuals out of the script.

The opening scene was great and really got me hooked. It really saved the script for me during the bar scene/beginning of the second act.

The bar scene was an insane amount of dialogue. I'm not against that, I like dialogue heavy movies myself, but the characters spent a large amount of time not really doing or saying anything except doing shots and making cheap blows at each other. I really didn't think any of the kids were very likeable.

There were several times from around page 15-45 I almost gave up on the script, but I hung in there knowing that soon they would all be killed off and I would have to hear anymore out of them.

I get that they are all friends, and they like to joke around with each other, but they spend so much time making mean jabs at each other that I don't understand why they would even want to be in the same bar as each other. Maybe I'm just hanging out with a different crowd, but while sure we make fun of each other because we know each other so well, we have so many more moments laughing about the good times, talking about *fill in the blank common interest*, etc.

After the killings started, I was along for the ride. It was fun, gory, and I was happy to see all these unlikeable people get killed off.

The scene with the cop in the third act was very tense, and definitely my favorite scene in the whole script. I realized after read that why you seem to be one of the staples of the community here. Very well done.

Now for the ending. I can buy that people sometimes just kill at random for the thrill of it. That kind of thing happens in real life all the time. But that Danny and Carlie are working for Satan just seems silly when it's randomly tacked on during the credits. After having spent 100 pages with nothing supernatural going on, it's really hard to believe that.

I get that a big twist of the movie is that our lovely young couple are psychotic, but it seems to me that if you spent more time developing their story and the real reason they are in Colorado much earlier, it would work better both as a screenplay and as a story.

So much time wasted watching annoying kids do Jagerbombs or whatever when you have a very interesting, and very dark story that could be being developed instead. Personally, I think stories about Satan and stories about murder for the thrill are the most disturbing types there are out there. You could be sitting on something really great with that.

Overall, it was very well done. I'll reiterate that the descriptions were fantastic. The murders seemed more realistic in this than in a lot of other screenplays I've read. I liked that this was a horror story with no 10 minute chase scenes that are so over the top.

Uhhh...not really sure how to draw this to a close haha. Good read Jeff, sorry if I'm not the best review. Give me time.


"A writer is someone who has taught his mind to misbehave" - Bag of Bones by Stephen King.
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Dreamscale
Posted: August 3rd, 2011, 2:33pm Report to Moderator
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Hey DietCokeHead, thanks so much for reading and providing solid feedback.  That's a funny name you've got there...although I detest diet soft drinks, I guess omitting the "Diet" in your screen name would have some iffy implications.

Thank you for the compliments.  Glad you enjoyed it.

The draft you read is quite old...I really need to get the latest, greatest draft posted.  I have made numerous little changes over the years and am/have been working on a "final" draft, which cuts down the bar scene significantly and also adds some false plot points that seem to paint our group of kids as not exactly what they seem to be.

It's funny, cause I've sat down many times, intending on chopping out the long story, McD tells, but literally every time, I just can't get myself to do it, as I like how it reads and plays out.  I know I have to though and have figured out a way that will work, but will cut down on the face time we have with the group getting to know each other.

I've said this many times, and I'll say it again here...I know it seems like a long, meandering, pointless ride until they get to the house, but in a filmed version, it would play out much faster, as conversation between a large group of peeps takes up alot of page length, while going much quicker on film...but I do understand it's TOO long, and it is being changed.

One thing I find funny, or mystifying, is the fact that most readers don't like the group of kids. I'm just not sure why that is, as IMO, most of them are cool, good people, who I would think are likable.  The vast majority of ribbing comes from Nicole, once she gets drunk.  She's the outsider, and Meg is the only one who knows her.  She doesn't handle her alcohol well, and she's also cut from a different mold.

Most are also in agreement with you on the final twist/reveal, involving Xavier.  Personally, I love it, but I understand how peeps see it as arriving out of left field.  For me, it comes off as an added bonus, thus the placement after the credits start to roll.  You can think throughout that D & C are just insane whacko killers, if you want, and the actual motivation doesn't even need to really come into play. But there are others who won't buy into that and appreciate the fact that there is an additional thread at work underneath the surface.  basically, what I'm saying is that if you liked it up to that point, hopefully the final reveal won't be a letdown.

Again, thank you so much for your time.  If you have something you'd like me to look at, just let me know.

Hope you enjoy your stay at SS.  It's a cool place and you can learn so much here.

Take care.
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Electric Dreamer
Posted: August 3rd, 2011, 3:04pm Report to Moderator
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Taking a long vacation from the holidays.

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Quoted from Dreamscale

The draft you read is quite old...I really need to get the latest, greatest draft posted.  I have made numerous little changes over the years and am/have been working on a "final" draft.


Me waiting for this draft.
Me wants to read the super draft with fresh eyes.

E.D.


LATEST NEWS

CineVita Films
is producing a short based on my new feature!

A list of my scripts can be found here.
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Dreamscale
Posted: August 3rd, 2011, 3:10pm Report to Moderator
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I'm trying to get ramped up, Brett.  I've been in a very bad mental state lately (as you may know).

I just had a fantastic interview today and feel very positive that this cold be the break I've been waiting on.  I'll get to it.  I promise.  It will be done within the month.

Thanks for the interest!
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leitskev
Posted: August 3rd, 2011, 9:08pm Report to Moderator
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Diet's reviews touched on many issues I had. My conclusions were slightly different. I both liked and disliked the end. The way it is, it seems disconnected. But I actually liked it if it can be developed more, liked it a lot. I've tried hard to talk Jeff into bringing that aspect of the story more into play, which would also make this more thematic....probably why he resists!

I did not think that the characters were unlikable. I just don't think we developed a real bond with any of them. So I wouldn't say we want them to die. But possibly we know they're gonna die so want to be over with, I guess.

One thing I'm really seeing as a trend at SS stories is this: no true protagonist. Either the characters are ensemble, or the protagonist has no real character arc. Even those that think they are sticking to standard structure are often confusing key story points with the plot points of protagonist development. And you know what? Protagonist development is hard! But it is also the key to story, what usually makes us interested in a story, what makes us connect.

I shared PMs on this with Jeff. I think the killers her should be the protagonists, better still, pick one. And this would tie in with the mysterious Satan figure at the end, who wants to bring people over to the dark side. So we could see the character development where the protag not only evolves toward evil, but evolves to love killing. It fills an emptiness in his life, makes him feel alive. But we need to make one of the protags sympathetic to a degree, and in which the battle of good vs evil plays out.

I like the idea of antagonist here to. My hope was for a private detective on the trail of the killers. And as a twist, the detective was sent by the same Satan who has recruited the killers.

Just ideas to spin around!
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Dreamscale
Posted: August 4th, 2011, 11:34am Report to Moderator
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Hey Kev, thanks for chiming in here.

Yeah, you and I have discussed your ideas, but what you're looking for is a very different story and feel.  It would completely do away with the twist/reveal of D & C, and because of that alone, I don't want to go there.

In terms of this not having a true Protag, that's what makes this unique, IMO.  There's no true Antag either, until late in the game.  It's what it brings to the table that makes it what it is.

It's obviously a non standard structure and an element that creates a choice for readers (hopefully viewers) in who they choose to back.  People don't tend to love D &C when they're supposed to, but when it's revealed that they're actually the Antags, some will relate to them, and actually cheer for them to be successful in their killing ways. Or maybe, subconsciously hope they survive, since the story is told through them, for the most part.  Others will hate them for their coldness, and cheer for whoever can survive.

If nothing else, it's an ensemble piece in many ways, and as the cast is whittled down, our true Protag is revealed in who's left standing at the end...and that's Janelle, who I tried to make the most well rounded, likable character, who's connected to everyone.

Since it bucks pretty much everything in the system, and flies against expectations, it's always going to be a polarizing script (movie?).

I'll get the final draft completed this month and posted...hopefully.

Thanks, man!
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Atlas
Posted: August 5th, 2011, 11:12am Report to Moderator
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You've got plenty of comments, so I thought I would take a look at the most important part of spec script: the first page.

EXT.  STEAMBOAT SPRINGS, CO. - EVENING

What does Steamboat Springs look like? I have no idea. Colorado is a big state. How about EXT. COLORADO ROCKIES - EVENING?

A single snowflake falls through the darkening sky.  Below, miles and miles of runs crisscross the mountain in ribbons of white.

What's a "run"? If I hadn't seen your profile picture and signature, I probably wouldn't have known you mean "ski run."

Huge, beautiful mountain homes line the lower trails.

Trails, or runs? Best to be consistent.

EXT.  MOUNTAIN HOME - REAR DECK - CONTINUOUS

LLOYD PATTERSON, late 50's, distinguished, tends a grill on the deck of a beautiful mountain mansion.  The snow flake floats lazily down, landing on his balding head.  Steaks and burgers sizzle on the grill.


Here, you haven't written what you think you've written. In the first sentence, the snowflake "falls through the darkening sky." That's a completed action. It falls through the frame, then we focus on the runs and the mountain. Then we see a guy and a snowflake lands on his head.

What I think you intended would be something more like this:

EXT. COLORADO ROCKIES - EVENING

A mountain peak, sharp against the darkening sky. Miles and miles of ski runs crisscross the mountain in ribbons of white.

A single snowflake appears from above. It floats lazily down, down, down--

EXT.  MOUNTAIN HOME - REAR DECK - CONTINUOUS

--into the thinning salt-and-pepper hair of LLOYD PATTERSON (late 50s). Lloyd, in front of a gas grill, flips a burger with a chrome spatula. He sets the spatula down next to a CHEF's KNIFE.


("Tends a grill," does not create a specific image in the reader's mind. The chrome spatula helps create an image for the fork that comes in later. The knife creates suspense via the Chekhov's Gun Principle, and sets up the death-by-fork as a payoff.)

Back to your original:

TOBIAS (O.S.)
(thick European accent)
Excuse me, sir?


What's a "European accent"? Why not just write "German accent"?

He twirls around, startled, squints his eyes in the gloom.


Just to be clearer, I would say "Lloyd twirls..."

Gloom? Is it evening, or dusk? Are there no lights on the deck? How cold is it?

LLOYD
Huh?


I think you can lose the squinting and just make it:

LLOYD
(twirling)
Huh?

TOBIAS, 40's, hard, chiseled features, stands at the gate of the deck, a warm smile on his face.

TOBIAS
I'm sorry to bother you.  I'm staying at your neighbor's...next door...I'm Tobias.

Lloyd smiles, walks forward.


Which way is "forward"?

LLOYD
No problem at all...come in...come in.  I'm Lloyd Patterson.  You sound...is it German?


Is Lloyd supposed to be a moron? He's just been approached by a "hard"-looking foreigner who claims to be staying at his "neighbor's," in the back of his house, (possibly) at night. His unwariness is childlike.

I'm going to stop here present an alternate take, continuing from what I wrote above.

EXT. COLORADO ROCKIES - EVENING

A mountain peak, sharp against the darkening sky. Miles and miles of ski runs crisscross the mountain in ribbons of white.

A single snowflake appears from above. It floats lazily down, down, down--

EXT.  MOUNTAIN HOME - REAR DECK - CONTINUOUS

--into the thinning salt-and-pepper hair of LLOYD PATTERSON (late 50s). Lloyd, in front of a gas grill, flips a burger with a chrome spatula. He sets the spatula down next to a CHEF's KNIFE on the grill's sideboard.

Lloyd hears a CREAK behind him. He twirls. TOBIAS, 40's, hard, chiseled features, stands at the gate of the deck, smiling.

TOBIAS (O.S.)
(thick German accent)
Excuse me, sir? I'm sorry to bother you.  My name is Tobias. I'm staying at your neighbor's...next door.

LLOYD
Which house, the Lebowskis or the Knutsens?

TOBIAS
The Knutsens.

LLOYD
Ah, come in. How is Dick Knutsen?

Lloyd turns back to the grill. He uses a two-tined BARBECUE FORK to move a raw steak from a plate to the grill.

TOBIAS
He is good. I smelled your food and I have hunger, and wanted to cook, but I have no fuel. How do you say, pro...pane?

LLOYD
Is that the best you could come up with?

TOBIAS
(confused)
I--

LLOYD
(interrupting)
Dick Knutsen died three years ago. His wife moved to Denver.

Lloyd sets down the fork and picks up the knife.

LLOYD
Now, why don't you tell me--

He turns, but Tobias is ALREADY ON HIM, jamming up his knife arm. Tobias snatches up the barbecue fork and rams it into Lloyd's neck.

Lloyd gurgles and collapses, bleeding out.

Tobias picks up the spatula and begins transferring the meat from the grill to a plate.


However, I think the larger problem is with the nature of the scene. From the other comments, this is a horror script inspired by Wolf Creek.

But this isn't a Wolf Creek opening. I don't think it's a horror opening at all. A rich guy is killed by what appears to be a professional. This is a Pelican Brief opening.

You can get into the scene later and take the focus off the circumstances of the murder and put it onto just the fact that it happened.

EXT. COLORADO ROCKIES - EVENING

A mountain peak, sharp against the darkening sky. Miles and miles of ski runs crisscross the mountain in ribbons of white.

A single snowflake appears from above. It floats lazily down, down, down--

EXT.  MOUNTAIN HOME - REAR DECK - CONTINUOUS

--into a STEAMING POOL OF CRIMSON ARTERIAL BLOOD, melting on contact. As the hot blood melts the thin layer of snow underneath, GAPS appear in the pool where the blood drains between the deck slats.

PULL BACK TO REVEAL LLOYD PATTERSON, late 50's, prone on the deck with a BARBECUE FORK sticking out of his neck.


That's probably more noir/crime than horror, but it's closer.

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Dreamscale
Posted: August 5th, 2011, 12:52pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Atlas, thanks for giving my script a look.  I always appreciate feedback, and I always respond in detail to feedback I receive.

You’re making quite a splash with your first 3 posts.  I got a kick out of your first post on Daniel’s Ghost of John.  Although you definitely had me howling in laughter, you also had me wondering what the heck you were trying to accomplish, and why you’d want to enter a forum like this, in the manner you went about your review of his first page.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I was not a fan of that script.  Several of your line by line analysis actually made sense, but there really isn’t any need to go about a review like you did.  It didn’t appear that you were offering your words to help, and much of your advice was downright comical and even incorrect.

And then I realized that my Fade script had just hit the top of the heap, and I hoped I wouldn’t have to get into it with you on a similar themed post…and here it is.

Well, God knows I like to play, and peeps in SS know I love a good back and forth, so, let’s have at it.

First of all, Atlas, I’ve got a reputation of giving very harsh, brutally honest feedback.  And it’s true…I do, but it’s always meant to help, and the vast majority of the time, it’s based on actual mistakes that writers don’t realize they’re making…grammatical errors, punctuation errors, technical formatting errors, and awkwardly phrased passages.  If things don’t make sense, I’ll question it.  If dialogue is not good, I’ll note it.  If character actions and reactions are unrealistic, I’m going to make it known and ask questions.

Your comments here are rather strange, have nothing to do with much of anything, incorrect, mean spirited, and also kind of humorous.  It doesn’t appear you’re here to provide any help or even give your opinion of the script or writing.

Let’s address each of your attacks and see what we’ve got here.  I won’t be able to quote your comments, or this will turn into a double post, so hopefully you can follow along as I respond to your questions and points raised.  Cool?  Cool…let’s go.

I agree that the first page of a Spec script is very important.  I tried to provide a very visual picture of this opening into.

Steamboat Springs is a large ski resort.  Since this is a short intro that takes place 2 weeks before the story proper begins, it doesn’t matter what it looks like exactly.  We only have so much space to provide details in a script, and certain words should provide enough of a visual for you.  A few pages later, it is made clear that this intro scene took place in Steamboat Springs, so the Slug needs to be specific, IMO.

I’m sorry you didn’t understand that Steamboat Springs is a ski resort containing “runs”.  IMO, it’s pretty clear with the “miles and miles” and “crisscross the mountain in ribbons of white”, that we’re looking at a ski resort.

Consistency is great in many respects, but definitely not in word choice in descriptive prose.  Quite the contrary, actually.

IMO, what I wrote works perfectly, and makes perfect sense, as well as giving a very visual picture.  The action of the snow flake is not completed in the opening line, as there’s nothing that says it falls all the way to the ground and is gone.  And to be quite honest, does it matter one bit if it’s actually the same snow flake that lands on his balding head?  Of course not.  C’mon, man…

Your suggestion adds nothing but extra words, which are unnecessary and actually an example of over writing.  “chrome” spatula?  Is that remotely important?  “Chef’s” knife”?  There’s no knife here, nor is there a need for a knife.  “Chekhov’s Gun Principle?  LOL…no, not a concern of mine.

Most Americans aren’t going to be sure whether an accent is German, or from some neighboring European country.  I’m sorry that made such a big deal to you.

Is “twirls around” less clear than “twirls”?  Is either actually unclear, or are you trying as hard as you can to bring up anything you can possibly think of?  Dude…c’mon now…

Is it evening, or dusk? – Well, the Slug pretty clearly states that it’s evening, right?   The opening line mentions “darkening sky”.  IMO, that equates to “gloom”.  Are there no lights on the deck?  I don’t see anything that mentions whether or not there are lights on.  You can’t describe every single possible detail of a scene.  That’s not the way to do it and it doesn’t come into play here at all.  How cold is it?  Well, it’s snowing, so that should give you an idea of the temperature. Would you like to be directed to a thermometer on the deck somewhere for some reason?  Or would you prefer an unfillmable in the prose, saying it is now 30.3 degrees Fahrenheit?  This is fun…

OK, so the fact that Lloyd squinted is an issue, huh?  OK, I can live with that.

Which way is "forward"? – That would be toward Tobias, in the direction he is now standing, after he “twirled around”, away from the grill he was tending.

Is Lloyd supposed to be a moron?  No, definitely not.  He’s actually a very intelligent, wealthy man…a Publishing mogul, to be exact.

He's just been approached by a "hard"-looking foreigner who claims to be staying at his "neighbor's," in the back of his house, (possibly) at night.   Tobias is not “hard-looking”.  He has “hard, chiseled features”, as well as a “warm smile on his face”.  This is an exclusive area.  These mountain mansions are not occupied by their owners all year long.  They are rented out, especially during ski season, and ESPECIALLY during the Holidays.  You are not aware of this now, because you stopped after 1 page, but it’s a week and a half before Christmas.

His unwariness is childlike.  What did Tobias do or say that would come off as threatening?  Why would Lloyd be weary of a friendly guy asking for a propane tank?  Totally disagree with you here, Atlas.

Your alternate take is nothing I am remotely interested in, but thanks for sharing.  I won’t bother ripping it apart, either.  I always have to laugh when someone comes along and provides such suggestions or alternate takes, based on reading a page or so (I’m referring to other people’s scripts, BTW).  It just baffles me.

This script shares certain things with Wolf Creek, but in no way is it a clone or anything even remotely similar, actually.  It’s not supposed to be a Wolf Creek opening…what’s your point and what in the world are you talking about?

I’m not sure how you can tell me this isn’t a horror opening, after reading 1 page of the 3 ½ page intro.  Can you?  It comes off as horror to me…that’s for sure.  It’s even a bit controversial.  What makes Tobias a professional?  Because he was calm and relaxed?  I’d say it’s a bit risky (or even downright foolish) not bringing a weapon, wouldn’t you?  Pelican Brief, huh?  OK…there we go.  Maybe I should move this to a different genre thread.

You can get into the scene later and take the focus off the circumstances of the murder and put it onto just the fact that it happened.  Sure I could, but I chose not to.  The importance of this opening scene is the killing itself.

This entire script is about killing, actually.  I’m a huge horror fan and I personally like seeing the kills take place, not see the aftermath.  Totally not what I’m after in any way.

So there we have it, Atlas.  Hope I responded to your concerns and shed a little light here and there, into the gloom.

Thanks for opening up my script and going over the first page.  I look forward to seeing some writing from you and would be happy to give you my thoughts and provide any help I can.

Take care and enjoy the weekend.
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Atlas
Posted: September 5th, 2011, 4:03pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
I always respond in detail to feedback I receive.


Apparently. Why?

Every screenplay or fiction workshop I've ever been a part of has had a rule about responding to criticism. Either it's not allowed at all except for responses to direct questions, or it's highly limited, as in five minutes total.

The reason for that is that responding to criticism serves no purpose.


Quoted from Dreamscale
you also had me wondering what the heck you were trying to accomplish, and why you’d want to enter a forum like this, in the manner you went about your review of [Daniel's] first page.


If it’s not obvious, and it is, I’ll tell you what I was trying to accomplish: helping Daniel. The first page (which you agree is the most important) is not well-written. That’s something he needs to know, and no one else had told him. No production company or agency reader or film industry professional would care to read past that page. Which is a shame, since from his posts in this thread, he's got a handle on what makes a movie.

"Did you know that we all can tell by page one that your script is no good?"--screenwriter Terry Rossio (Men in Black, Pirates of the Carribean)

"Bad writing doesn’t spontaneously improve...In the case of scripts, it means that you can stop reading quite early."--screenwriter John August (Go, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory)

In short, I was trying to accomplish exactly what you were trying to accomplish with this post about coding herman's MEMWIPE.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Several of your line by line analysis actually made sense, but there really isn’t any need to go about a review like you did. 


Obviously, I think there is a need. Since I haven't asked you to do it for me, whether or not you think there's a need is irrevelant.


Quoted from Dreamscale
It didn’t appear that you were offering your words to help, and much of your advice was downright comical and even incorrect.


I don’t recall offering much advice. If my advice was "incorrect," well, don’t leave him hanging, get over there and set me straight!


Quoted from Dreamscale
And then I realized that my Fade script had just hit the top of the heap, and I hoped I wouldn’t have to get into it with you on a similar themed post…and here it is.


Actually, you don’t have to "get into it" with me. You chose to.


Quoted from Dreamscale
First of all, Atlas, I’ve got a reputation of giving very harsh, brutally honest feedback. 


Yeah, well, I have the death sentence on twelve forums.


Quoted from Dreamscale
And it’s true…I do, but it’s always meant to help, and the vast majority of the time, it’s based on actual mistakes that writers don’t realize they’re making…grammatical errors, punctuation errors, technical formatting errors, and awkwardly phrased passages.  If things don’t make sense, I’ll question it.  If dialogue is not good, I’ll note it.  If character actions and reactions are unrealistic, I’m going to make it known and ask questions.


Great. But no one should do the same for you, is that it?


Quoted from Dreamscale
Your comments here are rather strange, have nothing to do with much of anything,


I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about. Strange in what way? How, exactly, do my comments "have nothing to do with much of anything"? If you haven't caught on, my comments generally refer to the quoted screenplay portion directly above each one.


Quoted from Dreamscale
incorrect,


My opinions are incorrect? OK, got it.


Quoted from Dreamscale
mean spirited,


Show me one mean-spirited comment I made. Can you even try to help someone mean-spiritedly? I don't think it's possible.


Quoted from Dreamscale
and also kind of humorous.  


In the future I will attempt to make my comments as unfunny as possible.


Quoted from Dreamscale
It doesn’t appear you’re here to provide any help


If you don't think pointing out exactly where and how a passage or scene doesn't work is helpful then I really have no idea what to tell you.


Quoted from Dreamscale
or even give your opinion of the script or writing.


Would it be better if I just said "your script is bad"?


Quoted from Dreamscale
Let’s address each of your attacks and see what we’ve got here.  


I think this sentence really shows the problem here. Not a single one of my comments is an "attack." I am not attacking you. We are not adversaries. You posted a screenplay on a screenwriting forum for feedback. I am providing feedback. If you didn't want feedback, well, why did you post it in the first place?

Every word of this post and my previous post is intended to help you. I understand that it's hard to receive negative feedback, but it's part of being a writer, and part of becoming a better writer.


Quoted from Dreamscale
I won’t be able to quote your comments, or this will turn into a double post, so hopefully you can follow along as I respond to your questions and points raised.  Cool?  Cool…let’s go.


What's wrong with a double post? Is there a fine for that? I'm new here, I need to know these things.

Also,  you actually have quoted some of my comments, only without the clarity and readability that the quote function provides.


Quoted from Dreamscale
I tried to provide a very visual picture of this opening into.


I'm trying to decide if you meant "I tried to provide a very visual picture of this opening intro" which is redundant, or if you forgot a word after "into." I'll assume you meant something like "I tried to provide a visual opening."

If that's the case then, and I apologize if my honesty offends you, in my opinion you did not succeed.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Steamboat Springs is a large ski resort.


And you assume that the reader knows that, and knows what it looks like? Until I googled the name, I assumed it was a fictional place. If we were talking about midtown Manhattan, I could see assuming the reader knows what it looks like. Even if they've never been there, hundreds of movies are set in Manhattan. I don't think a single one has been set in Steamboat Springs.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Since this is a short intro that takes place 2 weeks before the story proper begins,


The very fact that you describe it as outside the "story proper" should tell you something.


Quoted from Dreamscale
it doesn’t matter what it looks like exactly.


I can't believe I just read that. "I tried to provide a visual opening...it doesn't matter what it looks like." Yeah.


Quoted from Dreamscale
We only have so much space to provide details in a script, and certain words should provide enough of a visual for you. 


Yes! This scene is lacking such salient details.


Quoted from Dreamscale
A few pages later, it is made clear that this intro scene took place in Steamboat Springs, so the Slug needs to be specific, IMO.


I don't see why. The reader will pick up on it--you just said it's made clear later.


Quoted from Dreamscale
I’m sorry you didn’t understand that Steamboat Springs is a ski resort containing “runs”.  IMO, it’s pretty clear with the “miles and miles” and “crisscross the mountain in ribbons of white”, that we’re looking at a ski resort.


I didn't say I didn't understand. It just tripped me up a little. Do you really want to risk tripping up the reader in the first paragraph?

Reader: This tripped me up.
Writer: No, it's clear. I would rather be right and risk tripping up every studio reader than add three letters.

Do you see what I mean?


Quoted from Dreamscale
Consistency is great in many respects, but definitely not in word choice in descriptive prose.  Quite the contrary, actually.


No, you need to refer to objects consistently. Really, you do.

You read:

INT. HOTEL ROOM - NIGHT
The slow pounding on the door intensifies. The wood starts to CRACK and SPLINTER. They're ALMOST THROUGH.

Jeff frantically scans the room, spots a KNIFE on the coffee table. He BOLTS to the table, GRABS the dagger.

The door EXPLODES into the room.


You think: Huh? Dagger?

You want the experience of reading the script to have the ease of watching a movie. That means consistency.


Quoted from Dreamscale
IMO, what I wrote works perfectly, and makes perfect sense, as well as giving a very visual picture. 


Obviously your opinion is that it works perfectly. You would have changed it already otherwise.

I can tell you're going to have a hard time with this, but here's the thing: Your opinion doesn't matter. I am the reader. You are the writer. I am telling you my experience of reading the piece.

If you're going to stick to your opinion anyway, again, what's the point of posting the screenplay here? Are you just looking for a pat on the back? If that's the case, I'll oblige and be done with it:

Good job, Dreamscale. Well done. No need to read further.


Quoted from Dreamscale
The action of the snow flake is not completed in the opening line, as there’s nothing that says it falls all the way to the ground and is gone. 


This is grade school stuff. Simple present tense denotes an action that is completed at end of the sentence. That's how screenwriting works.

Jeff opens the door of his car. Jeff gets into his car.

Is it necessary to have a sentence in the middle saying, "The car door is now open"? Of course not--the action of the door opening was completed in the first sentence. It's understood.

Also, when something goes/falls/travels/passes through, it goes in and out. That's what "through" means. "The bullet goes through his head." Is the bullet still in his head at the end of that sentence? It wouldn't make sense to say, ""The bullet goes through his head. It explodes inside his brain." Because at the end of the first sentence, it's already out of, or through, his head, and so cannot explode inside his brain.

I think you know this. I think you would argue that squares are round if you had written that.

You have problems with verbs and prepositions elsewhere, as well. For example:

Quoted from Dreamscale
Marshall leaps out of the water, a few feet away.  A
thunderous BANG.  The shot goes high, missing her completely.


Now, ignoring the other problems in this paragraph, what you've written is that Marshall, with one jump, completely leaves the water (the deep end of a pool). That's what I thought when I read it. It might look something like this.

That's impossible for any human, even an Olympic athlete. Certainly not something someone who has just been electrocuted and drowned could do.


Quoted from Dreamscale
And to be quite honest, does it matter one bit if it’s actually the same snow flake that lands on his balding head?  Of course not.  C’mon, man…


So you're arguing that it IS the same snowflake, AND that it doesn't matter?

"A single snowflake falls through the darkening sky...The snow flake floats lazily down, landing on his balding head."

"A snowflake...The snowflake." This is more grade school stuff. Do I really have to teach you the difference between definite and indefinite articles?

I don't think I do. You obviously intended it to be same snowflake. You're arguing that squares are round again.
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