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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Unproduced Screenplay Discussion    Horror Scripts  ›  Fade to White Moderators: bert
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Atlas
Posted: September 5th, 2011, 4:04pm Report to Moderator
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Part 2/4


Quoted from Dreamscale
Your suggestion adds nothing but extra words, which are unnecessary and actually an example of over writing.


No, it isn't, Dreamscale. Adding a single adjective to a scene that has almost no concrete adjectives is not over-writing.


Quoted from Dreamscale
“chrome” spatula?  Is that remotely important? 


Is it remotely important that the "boom box"/"music box" is on small table? Is it remotely important that Joey's nightlight is Winnie the Pooh? Is it remotely important that Danny's bag is red and nylon?

The answer is: If it helps the reader see the scene in their head, then hell yes it's important.

(By the way, these are boomboxes. These are music boxes. But consistency isn't important, right?)


Quoted from Dreamscale
“Chef’s” knife”?  There’s no knife here,


I don't know what to think of this. This is a scene. You can put a knife there if you want to. You can put an elephant there if you want to.


Quoted from Dreamscale
nor is there a need for a knife.


Oh, is Lloyd the kind of mogul who cuts his steaks with his teeth? Or maybe you meant there's no need for a knife in terms of the craft of screenwriting. Again, you need something. There's no revelation of character, tension, conflict, suspense, or dramatic irony in the scene. Or are those also things that are, LOL, not concerns of yours?


Quoted from Dreamscale
“Chekhov’s Gun Principle?  LOL…no, not a concern of mine.


If you choose not to concern yourself with an important principle of visual storytelling as articulated by one of the greatest playwrights who ever lived, I guess that's up to you. The fewer tools you have to work with, the better, right?


Quoted from Dreamscale
Most Americans aren’t going to be sure whether an accent is German, or from some neighboring European country.  I’m sorry that made such a big deal to you.


Do you really think most Americans can't tell the difference between, say, a German accent and a French accent? (Lloyd does it himself!)

But that's not the point. Why would you say "European"? Why be vague? Just say "German" and let the reader "hear" the German accent in their head.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Is “twirls around” less clear than “twirls”?


I'm not sure whether you're pretending to misunderstand or not. I was saying you should replace "he" with "Lloyd" for the sake of clarity.  

On that subject...this is what you've written:

Tobias reaches down, grabs the steak fork from the grill.

TOBIAS
Lloyd?

LLOYD
Yeah?

Lloyd turns to face him.

Tobias moves quickly, rams the fork into his throat. Blood shoots out instantly.
Lloyd SCREAMS, falls backward onto the grill.


Now, watch this. No trickery involved, I promise.

Tobias reaches down, grabs the steak fork from the grill.

TOBIAS
Lloyd?

LLOYD
Yeah?

Lloyd turns to face him.

Tobias moves quickly, rams the fork into his throat. Blood shoots out instantly.

Lloyd SCREAMS, stumbles away, shocked that a stranger just stabbed himself in the neck with a fork for no apparent reason.


Up until "Lloyd SCREAMS" it's exactly the same as the original. Can you see the problem?


Quoted from Dreamscale
Is either actually unclear, or are you trying as hard as you can to bring up anything you can possibly think of?  Dude…c’mon now…


If they're both clear, then obviously "around" is unnecessary and you should delete it. By changing it from a line of scene description to a parenthetical, you reduce it from three lines to one.


Quoted from Dreamscale
"Is it evening, or dusk?" – Well, the Slug pretty clearly states that it’s evening, right?


Evening is vague. The sun can still be in the sky in the evening. Evening varies widely depending on season and surroundings. That's why screenwriters generally stick to DAY, NIGHT, DAWN, and DUSK.


Quoted from Dreamscale
The opening line mentions “darkening sky”.  IMO, that equates to “gloom”.  


"Darkening" does no equate to "gloom." "Darkening" equates to nothing, because darkening is a process, not a state.


Quoted from Dreamscale
"Are there no lights on the deck?"  I don’t see anything that mentions whether or not there are lights on.  You can’t describe every single possible detail of a scene.  That’s not the way to do it and it doesn’t come into play here at all. 


Seriously? OK, fine, I'll go there.

I'm not asking you to describe every hair on Lloyd's head. Lighting is an extremely important detail of the scene. That's why you put DAY or NIGHT right there in the heading. Without lighting, it's impossible to visualize. Since you described the conditions only vaguely (evening, darkening, gloom) the scene is extremely hard to see.

Is there no light coming from the kitchen through the sliding door? Maybe it's one of those opaque sliding doors.


Quoted from Dreamscale
How cold is it?  Well, it’s snowing, so that should give you an idea of the temperature.


It's not snowing. You specifically said there's a single snowflake. One. This is the Rockies--you know, high elevation. Maybe it's the first or last snowflake of the season. We have no way of knowing anything if you don't tell us.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Would you like to be directed to a thermometer on the deck somewhere for some reason?  Or would you prefer an unfillmable in the prose, saying it is now 30.3 degrees Fahrenheit?  This is fun…


I would prefer that it make some sense. If it's cold, if it's the middle of December in the Rocky Mountains, then why the hell is Lloyd grilling on the deck like it's the Fourth of July? And in the dark? And then a neighbor comes over and wants to do the same!

Lloyd is definitely not wearing a hat. You don't mention coats or gloves or sweaters, or how their breath steams in the air. You don't mention snow on the deck. Lloyd doesn't shiver, he's not in a hurry to get back inside where it's warm. He doesn't act at all like a human being would in the situation he's supposed to be in.

And then, instead of Lloyd's wife saying something like, "Have you come to your senses?" when she thinks he's coming inside, she says, "Are you ready for the buns?" as though it's perfectly normal to be grilling outside in sub-freezing weather.

Can it be done? Of course. But it would be worthy of comment, you know?
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Atlas
Posted: September 5th, 2011, 4:05pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
OK, so the fact that Lloyd squinted is an issue, huh?  OK, I can live with that.


No, the fact that Lloyd squints is not an issue. Maybe the reason you can't convey an image of the scene to us is that you can't "see" it yourself. Let's break it down:

Lloyd grilling--probably a medium-close-up over his shoulder from behind.
Lloyd hears something and twirls--a full-body action, so probably at least a medium shot, maybe a little longer.

Now what? Do we go in for a CU or ECU so we can see Lloyd squint? No, of course not. It adds nothing to the scene and the audience doesn't care if he's squinting or not. They just want to see what made him twirl (ie, his POV or a reverse shot).


Quoted from Dreamscale
'Which way is "forward"?' – That would be toward Tobias, in the direction he is now standing, after he “twirled around”, away from the grill he was tending.


Yes, exactly! Why be vague? "Lloyd walks forward" is not visual. You've got three elements in space in this scene: Lloyd, Tobias, and the setting (house/deck). The more you can connect them, the more visual it will be.

Compare:

"Lloyd walks forward"

with

"Lloyd, right hand extended, crosses the deck toward Tobias."

There you've got all three elements and the reader doesn't have to try to keep track of which way everybody's facing.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Is Lloyd supposed to be a moron?  No, definitely not. 


Fooled me.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Tobias is not “hard-looking”.  He has “hard, chiseled features”


Ah, I see. I thought you meant hard abstractly. Apparently it was simply redundant--how do "hard, chiseled features" differ from simply "chiseled features"? You don't chisel cotton, you know?


Quoted from Dreamscale
as well as a “warm smile on his face”. 


So this takes place in an alternate universe where all smiles are sincere?


Quoted from Dreamscale
This is an exclusive area.


In your experience, are wealthy men who live in exclusive areas pretty accepting of strange foreign men who approach unannounced in the dark from the back and make strange requests?


Quoted from Dreamscale
These mountain mansions are not occupied by their owners all year long.  They are rented out, especially during ski season, and ESPECIALLY during the Holidays. 


Tobias didn't say he was renting the house next door. He said he was staying there.


Quoted from Dreamscale
You are not aware of this now, because you stopped after 1 page, but it’s a week and a half before Christmas.


No, I was not aware of that because you didn't put it in the scene. How can I read the scene with information that doesn't appear until later?

Check out any other movie that's set during the Christmas season. Two come to mind: Die Hard and Lethal Weapon. The first word of Die Hard's script is "Christmas." McClane is in Nakatomi Tower for a Christmas party. Lethal Weapon's first major scene--Riggs's character introduction--is set at a Christmas tree sales lot. Do you see the difference between those and yours?


Quoted from Dreamscale
"His unwariness is childlike."  What did Tobias do or say that would come off as threatening?  Why would Lloyd be weary of a friendly guy asking for a propane tank?  Totally disagree with you here, Atlas.


The whole situation is hinky. Who asks a stranger for a propane tank? It's not like a cup of sugar. And in December?  Are Tobias' oven, stove, and microwave all broken? Do the stores in Steamboat Springs close in the early evening during the high season? And I guess Domino's is the same way? At least have him ask for a burger instead of propane.

Even if none of that matters, it's his duty to be wary (not weary, by the way). The rich are kind of targets for crime, you know? A lot of them even have ransom/kidnapping insurance. He's got a multimillion dollar house. His wife and children/grandchildren are inside.

Could someone behave as he does? Of course. But it's not believable, and that's what matters.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Your alternate take is nothing I am remotely interested in, but thanks for sharing.  


I don't understand. I'm not trying to "interest" you in anything. I was trying to shake up what has obviously become very stagnant thinking. Have you even considered alternate ways the scene could play out?


Quoted from Dreamscale
I won’t bother ripping it apart, either. 


Oh, you won't bother, huh? Well, my dad could beat up your dad, but he lives in Canada. And you're lucky these guys are holding me back.

Am I supposed to care if you rip it apart? I wrote that in like three minutes. It's what my screenwriting professor used to call a "house number"--a quick-and-dirty example to demonstrate something (like the dagger/knife bit above). It's not intended to be a quality finished product.

I wish you would rip it apart, though; it's a great way to learn.


Quoted from Dreamscale
I always have to laugh when someone comes along and provides such suggestions or alternate takes, based on reading a page or so (I’m referring to other people’s scripts, BTW).  It just baffles me.


It baffles you that people try to help others improve their scripts and writing on a screenwriting forum?


Quoted from Dreamscale
I’m not sure how you can tell me this isn’t a horror opening, after reading 1 page of the 3 ½ page intro.  Can you?  It comes off as horror to me…that’s for sure.


Any movie that depicts a murder is horror? Is that what you're saying?

Let me put it this way: what makes this screenplay horror? Sure, people die, right? People die in Saving Private Ryan, too, and that's not horror. OK, people are murdered in cold blood. People are murdered in cold blood in lots of movies, the Pelican Brief for one, and they're not horror. Is it because a kid is murdered? Kids are murdered in Mystic River and The Boondock Saints, and they're not horror.

So what aspect of this screenplay makes it horror, as opposed to, say, a thriller? You actually referred to it as a "real time [sic] thriller." Can you point out a scene where the audience will be scared?

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Atlas  -  September 5th, 2011, 6:58pm
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Atlas
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Quoted from Dreamscale
What makes Tobias a professional?  Because he was calm and relaxed?


It's my impression as a member of the audience. First-time killers hesitate. There's even a term for it: hesitation cuts. Tobias doesn't hesitate at all. Therefore he's killed before. Couple that with the nature of the target, and it seems like a professional on assignment to me.


Quoted from Dreamscale
I’d say it’s a bit risky (or even downright foolish) not bringing a weapon, wouldn’t you?


I missed the line where you wrote "Tobias has brought no weapons." Speaking of which, where did the "small handled axe" (AKA a hatchet) come from? Also, isn't one of the rules that they can't bring weapons? (Yeah, I read the ending.)


Quoted from Dreamscale
Pelican Brief, huh?  OK…there we go.  Maybe I should move this to a different genre thread.


I think you should, yes.


Quoted from Dreamscale
"You can get into the scene later and take the focus off the circumstances of the murder and put it onto just the fact that it happened."  Sure I could, but I chose not to.  The importance of this opening scene is the killing itself.


After reading a little more of this screenplay, I can say the importance of this opening scene is actually nil. It should be cut. The first thing a good producer or director would do is cut Tobias's murders because they have no purpose in the narrative and would be expensive to shoot. Tobias doesn't even appear again until near the end, and then he's simply killed.


Quoted from Dreamscale
This entire script is about killing, actually.  I’m a huge horror fan and I personally like seeing the kills take place, not see the aftermath.  Totally not what I’m after in any way.


Killing in itself is not an interesting thing to watch or read. The audience doesn't care if unknown people are killed by other unknown people. When there are killings or deaths in the beginnings of movies, it's because they either set up the inciting incident (Lethal Weapon, Jaws) or set up later suspense and dramatic irony. Tobias's murders do neither.

These scenes also need to be relatively brief--a page or less; certainly not three and a half pages. You described it as a "short intro," when, in fact it's longer than nearly every movie scene. Once you hit the three-page mark, you should reevaluate the scene.

While I'm on the subject of scene length...The "Horny Toad" sequence is essentially one long scene, about 20 pages. Twenty pages of drinking and messing around. (For the first eight or so pages of that, your main characters aren't even present--they seem to be in a sporting goods store for some reason.)

I'm not the first person to bring this up. I read a few more of the posts in this thread and I see now that a lot of what I'm saying echoes previous posters. Both about the script and about your reaction to feedback.

In other posts you say the pacing was inspired by movies like Wolf Creek, which you found "painfully slow and really dull." I gotta ask: why in the world would you want to emulate a movie like that? It boggles my mind; I got into screenwriting because of great movies where I loved every minute.

In a reply to electricsatori, you said:


Quoted from Dreamscale
Daniel, as I said, literally everything about this script goes against everything that any screenwriting book will tell you. There’s no 3 Act Structure, there are no clear antags and protags, there isn’t even a clear plot until the very end of the script.  Everything about it is meant to be different. I’m not one that plays by the rules, and I never will be.


I don't know what rules you're referring to. I know of no storytelling rules, only principles and guidelines. These principles have existed as long as human language. All art forms have similar principles, such as the principles of composition in photography.

The principles of storytelling are not arbitrary rules, like "keep off the grass." They are a guide to creating a work of fiction that is interesting to human beings.

You can subvert the principles, of course, but it takes a master of the form to pull it off. Picasso did hundreds of realistic paintings before founding Cubism.

If you attempt to subvert the principles of storytelling in the ways you're doing, as an unknown writer, in a spec script, it just looks like you're one of the thousands of wannabe screenwriters who have never studied storytelling on any level.

In fact:


Quoted from Carson Reeves (Scriptshadow)
THE NEVER STUDIED STORYTELLING ON ANY LEVEL SCRIPT
invariably comes from a first-timer and someone bold enough to believe they can write a good screenplay without any previous storytelling experience whatsoever. Signs of a NSSOALS?

  • There is no overarching plot/character goal to speak of.
  • The script reads as if the writer is making everything up as he/she goes along (because they are).
  • The script often jumps back and forth between genres.
  • Because the writer hasn’t learned how to build characters yet, the characters contradict themselves constantly (i.e. An introvert will try and get his friends to go out to a party).
  • The writer often makes the mistake of infusing “real life” into the script, and is surprised when the randomness and lengthy dialogue scenes reminiscent of real life are categorized as boring by the reader.
  • Instead of using screenplay real estate to develop already-introduced characters, new characters are brought in as if they’re coming out of a clown car, even though they have no real connection to the story and we’ll never see them again.
  • Seemingly important subplots will end lazily or disappear altogether.
  • Characters tend to spend most of the story talking about their situations as opposed to being actively involved in situations.
  • Since there’s no central goal for the main character, the writer rarely knows what to do with the ending (if there’s nothing being pursued, then there’s nothing to conclude).


In short, the setup is confusing, the middle has no conflict, and the resolution is unsatisfying.


Does that sound familiar? Even if we give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your script is not of this type, surely you must admit that it has many elements in common...and that's all readers will see.

If you don't have a protagonist or antagonist or plot, you at least need to replace it with something equally interesting, like a mystery (Citizen Kane) or quirky characters in unusual situations (Me and You and Everyone We Know) or a really interesting conversation (My Dinner with Andre). You don't just say it's purposefully boring. Boring is boring, intentional or not.


Quoted from Dreamscale
I don’t follow the path of least resistance;


How is it that you think you're not following the path of least resistance? Writing a script with a great, fresh, gripping story is hard. That's why great specs sell for a million dollars. Whereas your Horny Toad scenes could be replicated by sending a stenographer into any bar in the country.


Quoted from Dreamscale
I’d rather blaze my own trail, and see who follows.


You're going to blaze a trail by following in the footsteps of Greg McLean and Eli Roth? Trust me, boring, chatty scripts where nothing much happens...that trail has been blazed already, and it leads nowhere for spec scripts but Desk-Drawer Gulch.

Plus, if you want to emulate low-budget torture-porn, you kind of have to...write low-budget torture-porn. I don't see anything like torture in this script (maybe I missed it) and it's not low-budget.

Film executives are not gamblers. Wolf Creek got made because it was cheap. Wolf Creek's budget was about one million dollars (which actually came not from a studio, but from the government of Australia). The first five pages of this script alone could blow through nearly that much.

From IMDb, it looks like Wolf Creek has four named characters. How many do you have here? Let's see.

Jake
Johnny
Joey
Jill
Janelle
Danny
Carlie
Cyndi
Blackbourn
Bobby
Xavier
Sara
Tobias
Lloyd
Marshall
Megan
Martin
Mrs. Patterson
Mrs. Jacobs
Nicole
Lisa
Officer Jacobs
Officer Moore
Sheriff Hawkins
Rosie

I count 25.

(By the way, you have Jake, Johnny, Jill Jacks, and Janelle. Marshall, Megan, and Martin. Carlie and Cyndi. It's a good idea not to have multiple characters' names start with the same letter because so many without faces it can get confusing for readers.)

Why do you think Wolf Creek has four characters instead of 25? It's not because McLean couldn't come up with 21 more characters. It's because 1) screen-time must be divided between characters, and 2) more characters=more actors=higher expenses.

If you want violence to be shocking, don't try to do it by making the script so boring that we're shocked that anything at all is happening. Do it by making us care about the characters.


Quoted from Dreamscale
So there we have it, Atlas.  Hope I responded to your concerns and shed a little light here and there, into the gloom.


I could use a little more light, actually.

Why did you post this screenplay here? What do you hope to get out of screenwriting? Is it just a hobby for you?

Did you come to this forum to become a better screenwriter and improve your screenplays, and if so, do you believe the members of this forum can help you do so?

You wrote this script more than three years ago. You had a decent twist--that the couple are the killers--but it needed to be rewritten. The earliest responses raised a number of issues, most of which you apparently "disagreed" with, and thus did not address, though you seem to have cut about twelve pages.

In the meantime, a movie with the exact same twist--you know the movie I'm talking about--was filmed and released. If you had rewritten this script and had come up with a better title and logline, you could have had sold it. Well, maybe not sold it, but had it optioned. Production companies and studios sometimes do that when they have a similar project in development just to head off Antz vs. A Bug's Life-type competition.

Instead, here it sits.

In February 2009, you said,


Quoted from Dreamscale
I actually just finished the FINAL rewrite [of Fade to White] about 4 hours ago.


Not just a final rewrite, but a FINAL rewrite. This screenplay was done, er, DONE, two and a half years before I first posted about it. Is there a reason you didn't just say, "Thanks for your input, but this screenplay is done"? Why haven't you had this thread locked to prevent people from wasting their time on feedback?

I've already spent way too much time here, so I'll leave you with this. You participated in the 7WC and it seems like you enjoyed the challenge. I have a challenge of my own for you: don't reply to this post--I'm not going to read it anyway. So don't "IMO" me. Treat all my questions as rhetorical; food for thought. Read, consider, move on. Write.
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Dreamscale
Posted: September 5th, 2011, 5:21pm Report to Moderator
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Thank you Atlas for your very thorough evaluation and insight into screenwriting.  It is very helpful to me, as I am actually completing "another "final" draft of this old script.

It sounds like you're having a wonderful Labor Day, spending hours going into extreme detail here.  It is very appreciated.

As I said before, I look very forward to reading some of your work.  Take care.
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: September 5th, 2011, 5:22pm Report to Moderator
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Pretty damn good review to be fair, whether you wholly agree with him or not!
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leitskev
Posted: September 5th, 2011, 6:02pm Report to Moderator
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Not sure what Atlas' intention is, but that must have taken a very long time to comprise. Either he really is a big friend of Jeff's, or he does not like him at all and it's personal. Either way, there's some useful opinion for Jeff to weigh. When someone reviews my stuff, if they make 20 points, and 1 point helps me, I consider it a great service.
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Dreamscale
Posted: September 5th, 2011, 6:59pm Report to Moderator
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It is a wonderful service and although Atlas and I are not friends at this point, he seems like he would make a wonderful friend to have.  I look forward to a long and rewarding friendship with Mr. Atlas.
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leitskev
Posted: September 5th, 2011, 7:08pm Report to Moderator
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Whatever the intention, he did put a lot of time into it. I'm sure there are helpful suggestions. No doubt you will return the favor if the opportunity arrives.
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Dreamscale
Posted: September 5th, 2011, 7:13pm Report to Moderator
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Yes, as I've said twice before, I look very forward to reading some of Mr. Atlas' work.
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leitskev
Posted: September 5th, 2011, 7:16pm Report to Moderator
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Congrats on 5000 posts! This put you over the top. Let's do shots!
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Dreamscale
Posted: September 5th, 2011, 7:17pm Report to Moderator
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Damn...I need a life!  

Yes, shots are always in order for me.  Great idea!!!
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kelo
Posted: September 18th, 2011, 11:57am Report to Moderator
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Wow. That whole exchange was very interesting, to say the least. Atlas has taken the reviewing of a script to a level I've yet to see, having been on Triggerstreet, and Zoethorpe. It must be the kind of full on critique you'd usually pay for, something I've yet to do. It didn't seem personal to me, as some may think. Whether he's new here or not, makes no difference, and whether you agree with his critique of Fade to White, makes no difference either.

For someone to put that much energy, and thought into someone else's script tells me one thing, Atlas loves screenwriting. Now Dreamscale has helped me before with my script, making me aware of its issues that needed correcting. Mostly, punctuation, and how to structure action passages effectively.

But the line by line breakdown Atlas has done is just as useful. Now, I'm not asking for a read from anybody, as I have yet been able to read someone else's script, but I wouldn't shy away from any input Atlas would care to make on my script. I don't fear criticism, I use it, or not.

Even if  you have gotten the death sentence on  twelve other forums, LOL. I'm here to learn what is going to make my writing better, and I already realize, there is no such thing as a perfect script, or movie, or review.


Keith J. Love 

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leitskev
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You are correct, Kelo. In fact, after Atlas review here, I invited him to exchange reviews on my work any time. Ass kickings only help me, so I welcome them...at least in writing! In real life, they're not much fun. Though fortunately I can take a punch!

You seem like a fair minded guy, I'll watch for your work. We're waiting for Dream to get in gear and start his new feature. At some point you gotta stop marinating the steak and throw it on the grill!
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kelo
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Thanks, I just try to be honest about this writing thing. Hopefully it comes out as fair. I just downloaded your Gangster vs Zombie saga. I'll let you know what I think about it.


Keith J. Love 
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DV44
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Hey Dreamscale - Just read your script and i loved it. The opening was great with Tobias killing at will and it left me wanting more soon after but than the long played out bar scene came and toned everything down a bit. That's fine with me as you were introducing several new characters and building them up. I think it would have been interesting to know that Danny was the killer before entering the bar. That way you're wondering if Carlie is going to find out at him or maybe she already knows. Will Danny be alone with one of the bar patrons and kill them in the bathroom or behind the bar? Just a food for thought to maybe add a little tension to the entire scene but that's just me. I'm a rookie when it comes to writing and your script is the very first one that i've read. Like I said at the beginning, Great Job on the script. Hope to read more from you in the future.
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