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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Unproduced Screenplay Discussion    Horror Scripts  ›  Lychanthrope Moderators: bert
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  Author    Lychanthrope  (currently 8606 views)
crookedowl
Posted: September 8th, 2013, 2:35pm Report to Moderator
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Now this is kind of interesting, and sort of related. I don't know if you're into exploitation films, but I think they're fun. Switchblade Sisters, The Mighty Peking Man, Street Trash... films made for cheap back in the 70s and 80s for drive in theaters. According to Jack Hill (who wrote Switchblade Sisters), back then if you approached producers with an idea for a film, they'd give you a genre to work in. Maybe you wanted to make Hamlet or The Purloined Letter, whatever. So the producer will say, "set it in New York and make it a crime film about pimps". In the case of Switchblade Sisters, Jack Hill set out to make Othello, but they told him to to make it about a female gang.

So yes, I agree that some films draw influence from previous stories. Sometimes it's the movies you least expect.
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WillJonassen
Posted: September 8th, 2013, 2:41pm Report to Moderator
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Oh worthwhile?

Halloween I hadn't even thought of, shitte, and that puts a spin... more to discover... and I'll say I realize that with as complicated a thing as creativity is, most things all also come from multiple influences and points of view... many different directions at once... because here a person (or many in a team/crew) who all have entire lives worth of influence to fit into just a small space on a screen, and still the need to be original at the same time, must conglomerate nothing into something. It helps to pull from history.  

In some ways, what H.P. did for those films you mentioned is not just inspire the characters, but culturally open the minds of the masses to prepare the way.

H.P. Lovecraft did not see success in his life in large part because he was tossed aside as being too dark and evil. That his stories seemed so real and yet were not anything to do with God, but elder gods and ancient aliens and dark forces, he was thought quite literally to be an agent of the devil... but as time went on, passed his life once people slowly recognized his brilliance, it became much more acceptable to have these types of books and movies at all.

If he hadn't been born and writing, right then, there's a very good chance you might never have heard of some of your favorite filmmakers, in other words, because they would have been much more suppressed/oppressed. There's also something to looking at "How high the bar is set" when looking to become truly great or remembered. History repeats itself in cycles, so at least connecting and understanding a lineage to something can put one on a good footing, or tell them which way to go if they want to do something opposite and truly new. Sometimes, we have an idea we think is really original and then it turns out, no, even though you never heard of it it's been done before. That's something to avoid, especially.

Plus Lovecraft is like magic... I saw the world in a whole new way after knowing my place against his influence, that I didn't even know... don't like them today, for example, but loved all their early albums - so many Metallica songs are named after Lovecraft stories like "Ride the Lightning" and "The Thing that Should Not Be." Even watching SouthPark became more rich as a result of knowing Lovecraft, because they use his stuff ALL the time. Tool. Countless other rock bands, shows, books - not just movies at all. It's like the world I knew before Lovecraft was all a lie and a trick... and now it's a little bit less so.

And so what makes it worthwhile to me, is that by examining the flow of events and messages as a "zeitgeist," the way some people call it, leading to where the mind of the culture (or a targeted part of it) might be at this very moment... it helps me discover my audience and how I can reach out to them. It helps me discover myself, too, and what my own art means to me and might mean to others in the future. One can only guess how his work might be interpreted, though, and so it lastly helps me focus what interpretations I can into what I desire them to be, for later. What I have discovered so far? Shallow, and uncaring of larger things. Nihilistic. Dis-compassionate and un-empathetic. Uneducated, and enjoying being so - therefore ignorant, literally of a mind to ignore what that mind feels like. A people each for their own self. No soul. Money is god and king. Materialistic. Synthetic. Cold to the point suicide becomes an almost pleasant idea. That's the... audience. To me. To me, the audience represents the enemy of all things born of the light.

It's just a pit of sorrows, to me, sitting out there in those seats. It's like Mos Eisley space-port out there...  "A more wretched hive..."

Help me Obi Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope.

And when it comes to connecting Lovecraft to things, it's much about relaying credit to a poor genius who saw no success in his life, but deserves a heart-felt thankyou from us all - even if in spirit. He himself wanted to do the same back to Poe and Robert Blake, in terms of creative (not philosophical) credit.        

It's just about awareness of a great master, probably one of the greatest who will ever live.

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WillJonassen  -  September 8th, 2013, 3:23pm
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WillJonassen
Posted: September 8th, 2013, 3:05pm Report to Moderator
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It's like wondering how a car engine works but never knowing, and just being glad that it does... but when the day comes you hear about gasoline and what that is, suddenly, the whole machine makes sense. It still works like it did and would have anyway, but you just sit back and go, "Oooooohhhhhh... I see."


H.P. Lovecraft is the electricity in our light bulb.

He's the strings inside the piano.

He's the ocean around the fish.

If you're happy that a light-bulb just works, and go no deeper, then we can all be glad that you're just a happy and content person.

But H.P. Lovecraft should never be forgotten. If society crumbled tomorrow... I would make it my job to protect his works with my life, and pass them to my children with the exact same task that they must do anything possible, and nothing else, to make sure those books survive. No joke, and I'm not alone...



Quoted from crookedowl
I don't know if you're into exploitation films, but I think they're fun.




On exploitation films? Yeah... I totally love the idea, but they are something I know much, much less about... and it's because I find them rare and/or hard to come by with my limited means. Of course, it's something I would wish to look into for pure knowledge and experience sake - but to the process you mentioned about how they are made, that's got to be one of my favorite aspects of it for the quality of sheer, random FUN.

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WillJonassen  -  September 8th, 2013, 3:20pm
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crookedowl
Posted: September 8th, 2013, 4:40pm Report to Moderator
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Yeah, that makes sense. I wasn't trying to discount Lovecraft or anything -- I just said I wasn't sure if every one of those screenwriters were consciously influenced by his work. Not to say he didn't influence them in some way... and apparently in a very significant way.

It's like Citizen Kane. To me, that's the film that changed the way other movies were made. And even if someone today hasn't seen it, or -- gasp -- dislikes it, their movie will still be influenced by it in some way.

And the part about Lovecraft making society "ready" for modern horror isn't something I thought about at all. I can definitely appreciate that. Nothing is worse, to me, than a society that holds artists back and waters down their work. That ruined a lot of great works, particularly films. So anyone who paves the way for more creative freedom is a hero in my eyes.

And don't worry, I'll check out some Lovecraft ASAP. Unfortunately my local Target doesn't carry any (but they did have the Hostel movies).
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Dreamscale
Posted: September 9th, 2013, 1:25am Report to Moderator
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Reading WAY TOO MUCH into films that were about exactly what they were about.

Seriously...end of subject.

I don't mean to be an ass or anything, but it is what it is and you are going way too deep here.

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WillJonassen  -  September 9th, 2013, 9:02am
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crookedowl
Posted: September 9th, 2013, 1:37am Report to Moderator
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Reading into what? I was mainly talking about Lovecraft's influence on storytelling. Some films are what they are, but everything gets influence from somewhere.

Discussing a writer's influence on a specific genre as a whole and reading into individual films are two different things.

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WillJonassen  -  September 9th, 2013, 3:13am
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Dreamscale
Posted: September 9th, 2013, 9:03am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from crookedowl
Reading into what? I was mainly talking about Lovecraft's influence on storytelling. Some films are what they are, but everything gets influence from somewhere.

Discussing a writer's influence on a specific genre as a whole and reading into individual films are two different things.


Sorry, Will...not you.  I was a bit schlammied last night and posted this after I read a much earlier post by Will.

These discussions on influence are fine and I didn't mean for this post to come off like it probably did.

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WillJonassen
Posted: September 9th, 2013, 10:14am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
Seriously...end of subject.

I don't mean to be an ass or anything, but...


I understand that you aren't trying to be, bro, and I believe me when I say that I think you're great for your very own reasons.

But this is a site that is often, often, referred to students taking classes in script-writing in a college setting. Simply Scripts is listed many time in the course syllabus as a resource and study-guide, but just as much for examples of what not to do as for what works. They are encouraged to think about these things, it is often the subject-matter of the very classwork and required to know on tests, and etc., etc., so why censor or censure it's discussion in any way?

We're talking about young people who are full of all sorts of their own ideas about what they would like to make of themselves in life, and many of those ideas can be different than your own. Does that mean they'll all see success? Of course not, but that does not mean there is only one way to do OR think about these things. Some will think your way and absolutely hate the classes, in fact, for the same reasons you hate it, but to make it through with a grade those people just have to grit their teeth, I guess. You could hear a few of them moaning in the back, in fact, and even at really famous guest speakers from places like Pixar/ Dreamworks/ LucasArts that we've had visit (and you would expect them to be all-ears for), but most of that type (your type) just failed out. For everyone else, it's extremely fascinating from top to bottom.

I, myself, have been one of those students, and am thoroughly trained and successful in my area with award winning Short Films, such as "Mobius," By Ben Hammond, which one Best VfX in the Tampa Bay Film Festival in 2011, and the F8 challenge in 2012, and "America, I" by Heidi Garcia which is still currently running the circuits (on which I was Assistant Director and minor editor and Lead Story-Boarder of both), and working with producer Charles Box Jr (Sarah Silverman's former agent and you can see him on my facebook - a former Marine, too, I've enjoyed many lunches with him) who has his own film "In the South" in Cannes just this year, and on THIS VERY SCREENPLAY, "Lychanthrope" was made with at least some small input and help by TOM SAVINI (who I think might likely be one of your own heroes) He helped write the Bar-Fight scene in the second act, and is actually promised the part of the long-haired biker, Neil, as a result of his helpful interaction - if it does anything, but it's not made in that vein except for possible optioning. Tom is personal friends with the other original co-writer, going way back, and I literally have Tom's personal email right here. It's sitting right over there on my desk, and if I want to call Tom, all I have to do is give one of his buddies and publisicts Rick a holler, that is if he's not too busy getting hammered and having waffles with Qunetin. Quentin Tarantino. I've been extremely modest about my business connections throughout this with you. My make-up guy Allen goes and hangs out with Clive Barker, a Florida Resident also, on weekends. My Vfx guy just got hired by Weta Digital, which you see in the credits for darn-near everything these days... Internships and passed joints with people you wouldn't believe, or who've come and just slept on my couch for a few days. etc etc. On and on. Certainly, it's had something to with the good stuff I keep around the house, but that just makes conversation, often, even deeper.

I could go on and on and on, man, about the things and people I've met, known, and worked with.

Am I some big-shot? Hell no. These guys treat me just how they should, as the kid. But they're also great and extremely intelligent guys and gals who take things really seriously. They're extremely well spoken and educated, WELL-READ especially, and they'll talk about anything and everything often, and that's how and why they are successful. Big, open, minds.

Do you really want me to sit here and bullet point out you a list of all the outrageously legendary people who out-right disagree with you on every level? I could just cross-check Imdb for us and take up even more hours of all of our time - or continue formulating and developing my own creative ideas to share like I was doing! Let's seeee... Scorsese, Scott, Aronofsky, Cohens, Anderson, Refn, Hitchcock, Ramero, Gilliam; are all just some off the top of the head influences who went into THIS script, and have all kinds of depth going on behind them.

(And Crookedowl? Will 1? In the point you made about not really thinking about it AS you write? You're not wrong. When I considered it, I didn't really think about all those things either when writing this, actually much more just about memories of my life experiences while searching for interesting moments. It was built up on a moment to moment basis - same for those who helped make this script or had input to scenes. But I think what happens is those things still wind up coming out, or even being injected after-the-fact in the editing/polishing process for depth of content, when studied later in some class maybe, too, and I think it comes from just how the writer's who are most educated and smart almost can't help not just having it flow into their work because it's like muscle memory. Knowledge of things like philosophy, art, history, or whatever is inside the writer, will simply just flow out because that's what they have experience in most).  

Dream, you habitually come through people's pages and tell them what to think about this industry, but not once, ever, have you mentioned your own educational background. Not once ever have you mentioned any accolade on the academic end that I am coming from, to relate. I'm sorry, man.


It's one thing to present your opinion that you think you have one preference to movie watching and analysis, and it's another thing entirely to tell people what to think and do, let alone demand that they see it your way, let alone demand a conversation be cut short... for what? Your own annoyance? F that, bro. No one in the entire world cares about your annoyance levels except you... that's the hallmark of narcissism. OF COURSE you would like those movies with no content, because self-satisfaction is the hallmark of narcissism, pure and simple. Yes, this industry is full of people like that. We talk about people like you in class, in fact. But it's not completely full.

I'm TRYING to QUIT SMOKING CIGARETTES HERE!!! Aaaeeaaaaarrrroooaaarrggggggggg

And you have competition in the form of new students who will be giving you a massive run for your money (no pun intended) as there are some people who don't give two sh!ts about money or fun on the creative side (for those thing's sake alone even if the outcome still results in fun), but take the entire experience as piece of fully realized art, in and of itself, beyond all notions of money and time. Movies get churned out constantly like on a factory floor, but do you know which movies get taught about in school's and classrooms 50 years down the road? NOT the kinds of ones you are talking about. Have you been to school for screenwriting?

Maybe there are as many as ten students in every class who hear all about the old classics, and they hear the Professors and guest Lecturers from all over talk about why and how they got their starts, and those kids look up to them. The best of those who are able to hold a conversation with such guests show their salt, and are passed up the ladder a bit just like I managed do be handed along, and very nicely. Lucky, that was, but it also just came from being myself in many ways. And they related.  

It's often, almost always, about some deeply life-changing message that got into their heads and pushed them into film-making. And then these kids say, "Hey, maybe someone will remember my name in 50 years, too? And maybe some kid sitting in a room like this those 50 years later will have their lives changed, also, and become the next great themselves?" Or something along those lines.

But they come here to a site like this that is put in a reference section of the class, and they look to gain an understanding of their audience, and while you may be part of a true portion of that audience that they will have to deal with, you aren't even close to being representative of the whole, and you especially aren't representative of the creative side. This is nothing but discouragement, and not normal, but in a directly unfair and self-biased way on your part.

Is there fast money to be made when going for the quick regurgitation or thrill-ride of entertainment? Sure. But trust me when I say they take the time out of their lives to discuss the deeper things, too, because that separates certain individuals apart from being merely successful or known, from being legendary. They put reason behind what they do, and deeper meaning, sometimes literally just for, specifically, so some academics in the field can break it down in much later years and give it great critical acclaim as well as (or on top of) monetary success. For some people, it's about reaching minds and hearts just as much (or much more) than it's about reaching adrenaline glands.

One point of argument we had before, as example? There not a single, ONE SINGLE, person in the industry working in the academic/educational/critical side of MY school, and not ONE SINGLE STUDENT in my entire school (which has for a long time been well-regarded as a recruitment center for the best, Full Sail, but even going back to my Art Institute [less respected but in some ways larger] days it was also like this there) who thought anything about the movie "Avatar" was okay, from a film standpoint, and it's ONLY positive mark is in the vfx side and budget thrown at it... it's still left as a footnote in most CLASSROOMS, because among professionals, it's considered an awful F@cking movie. And it is. It fails to meet standards on so many levels, from plot, to some of the worst dialogue ever put on screen besides maybe Battlefield Earth.

And only people who have no idea what they are talking about and have never gone to school for it think otherwise, like sticking the short-bus kids on a roller-coaster with a missing track, and then not telling them about gravity.

That's what I think of your side on this debate.

And I think that about almost every one of your opinions, truth be told. So you don't ever have to click on such a conversation again, and if you see one, you can restrain your selfishness and remove your hand from the keyboard unless you can present the case/opinion in a citeable and unbiased (not telling as if you're the only person on the planet) way. You make kids, I'm not joking, want to cry and be completely discouraged with your negativity, and who do not deserve to be treated in that manner, or even be exposed to it at the stage they are in their education, with the directions they are going regarding the above.

Thanks


I won't be back for a while, because I've learned what I need to learn in class, honestly, from reputable experts and backed up by industry talents, and this site in general represents such a small, biased, and uninformed cross-section of the audience that it's almost not even worthwhile except to know that it exists, make technical comparisons, and to have a protected source of citation material for certain scripts that are unproduced or for fun. My final word at least to Dream, on this, is that there is no one way to do or think ANYTHING on this planet.

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WillJonassen  -  September 9th, 2013, 10:57am
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Dreamscale
Posted: September 9th, 2013, 10:29am Report to Moderator
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To each their own, always.  You are correct.

Sorry to upset you so deeply. Not sure how I did, but I obviously did.  My apologies.
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WillJonassen
Posted: September 9th, 2013, 10:44am Report to Moderator
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Because the kids man.


The crying children.


With broken dreams.


Bathing in their own tears and murdered hopes, now.


I also literally just now saw the part about your drinking, and I myself have not had a cigarette in about a week (which I am regretting most thoroughly, but sticking to because my mom died of cancer since last we talked), and that's the long and short of it, but still the essence of my point on how these discussions come from class, or my ideas do, as the heart of my contention.


I'll say this is opposite of my other, though... My ma didn't even open the first page of this script. I handed it to her a while back when it was clear she was running short on days, but felt I had to warn her about some of the violence and drug references, and she didn't even open it as a result. It was my sense that it was the best way she could get to know me on a deep level, too, for exactly those reasons and more, because she sincerely never did. It also may have been a source of "hope," I thought, because I'm not the marrying type and what-not... and you know moms. I'm only sharing that sob story to say that while I may have called your view-point single-minded, it's competitive and contends itself as a genuinedly real part of the industry... that OTHER is nothing more than CLOSED-minded, and I think, far far worse for this industry and world.

And at least you aren't like THAT.


I'm a Story-Board Artist by trade. I spend much of my time reading scripts from that standpoint, and trying to interpret what will go from words and into little picture in square panels. Line by line, page by page, scene by scene, sequence by sequence, act by act, I need to see everything that will help me form that picture - what will go into the little box next to the picture about what sounds are taking place during that moment - what will go in the box under that one about any dialogue taking place - what will be written underneath as the general description of action and character motivation. The only step up in terms of creativity in that process is working with the Director to decide what shots will look like (often having already scouted a location and come home with photos to reference) and which way the camera will move with little arrows. Those aren't in-script, but come very soon after. I go about all of the reading I can in that way, but of course it's much easier to have the writer/director in the process, if you aren't that yourself. This script was a collaborative effort, but in this version here, also a fun means to try to put myself in another's shoes that addresses some of the short-falls I too often see when trying to story-board other's work.

That's my real angle. The rest is just purely academic.

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WillJonassen  -  September 9th, 2013, 11:52am
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crookedowl
Posted: September 9th, 2013, 11:40am Report to Moderator
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It's all right, Jeff. I didn't take it personally.

And I'll see you around, Other Will.
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