Quoted from Stumpzian God almighty. You'd think this script was "Finnegan's Wake," given the voluminous analysis/comments. But, Jeeze, people are going on and on and on with their own personal opinions about this and that, page by page, pontificating. Lord! Too much feedback is just that -- too much. Especially if you're new to SS. Andy's been a member for, what, four days? Now, I suppose he may well say, "No, it's fine, I appreciate the reading, the ideas, the valuable suggestions. I welcome criticism." But to Andy, I say,  trust your instincts.  Some of  what you are reading is show-off analysis. All of which raises the issue of feedback in general. What do individual writers want from feedback?

What? Are you saying there's too much feedback??? That's why most people post their scripts here. To get feedback...for free. It's invaluable! It's feedback like this that I learned from. I seriously don't get your comment...  

Quoted from Stumpzian God almighty. You'd think this script was "Finnegan's Wake," given the voluminous analysis/comments. This not a knock on "Piper Creek." I read enough ( 20 pages or so) to know Andy has talent. But, Jeeze, people are going on and on and on with their own personal opinions about this and that, page by page, pontificating. Lord! Too much feedback is just that -- too much. Especially if you're new to SS. Andy's been a member for, what, four days? Now, I suppose he may well say, "No, it's fine, I appreciate the reading, the ideas, the valuable suggestions. I welcome criticism." But to Andy, I say,  trust your instincts.  Some of  what you are reading is show-off analysis. All of which raises the issue of feedback in general. What do individual writers want from feedback? Henry

Henry...WTF?  What are you saying exactly and why in the world are you saying it?

What do you think SS is?  Andy's been doing exactly what every member should do...Quid Pro Quo.

Why are you irratated?  I honestly don't get it...

Hey Henry,

Thanks for the nice comment. I hope this next bit doesn't seem like I'm undercutting it.

To everyone in general, I both know what Henry is getting at and see his point of view, sure - AND also genuinely appreciate the level of comment. Inside each post so far has been at least one or two meaty points that clicked in my head and gave me a good insight.

In fact, I have just submitted a revision that reflects a lot of it. I have made over a hundred edits to the action to replace passive language, the 'is' abuse and take out all the 'we see' and delete redundant descriptors. (at time of writing, the site hasn't confirmed it's there yet)

What I think this does, is make a quicker, more dynamic read that allows the reader to 'get' the more stylistic parts. The tone of this movie when directed would be a little more absurdist/self aware, enough to 'hang a lampshade' on the preachy parts. The first draft I posted here dragged too much in the action writing and took away from experiencing the scenes properly.

Chris, your latest, second half, post makes good points on what works in what ways, and if they are compatible or not. Maybe in my head they work in a certain tone, but am I communicating that tone, and is it consistent.

It just so happens that I am the kind of person who will read that level of feedback, and while not compromising my idea, take some of it on board and make actual changes. It might be just me though.

I will post here separately to say when the new draft is confirmed as up. Although the main dialogue and scene content is the same. If anyone gives it a look, I'll read a second script of theirs, no problem.

Quoted from Heretic ^ My review of Finnegan's Wake: probably brilliant, definitely awful to read. I'll be sure to be similarly terse and bland should I ever come to review one of your scripts, Henry.

Thank you. Bland is not necessary. Just no 4,000-word essays.

Quoted from Grandma Bear What? Are you saying there's too much feedback??? That's why most people post their scripts here. To get feedback...for free. It's invaluable! It's feedback like this that I learned from. I seriously don't get your comment...

Of course I want feedback. I just don't want to read someone's dissertation.

Quoted from Dreamscale Henry...WTF?  What are you saying exactly and why in the world are you saying it? What do you think SS is?  Andy's been doing exactly what every member should do...Quid Pro Quo. Why are you irratated?  I honestly don't get it...

I think you've confused the names. Andy is the script writer, not the one giving feedback.

Yes, some feedback irritates me -- the self-important kind. The kind that shoots from the hip.

Ok just a post to say that the script linked in the first post is now a revised version.

There are shed loads of edits, mostly paring down and reworking the action lines, as discussed before. There are a few minor changes to some scene contents and dialogue too, just a few.

I'll take on some more Monday unproduced postings when they come out, but, if anyone who already commented takes a look at the revised script, that would be above and beyond and I'll definitely review a second script of theirs too.

Thanks.

I'll give it a look this week, Andy.

Thanks for reviewing Chupacabra, Andy.

I've read the first ten pages. I'll go a little more in depth when I can get around to it, so here's a Cliff Notes version of my full review:

The opening scene takes up ten pages. Halloween didn't do this. Friday the 13th didn't, either. I've been writing a slasher of my own, and the opening scene is over and done in three pages.

You've got a few orphan words -- single words taking up their own line.

Code She turns and looks at him. She smiles broadly, noticing his expression.

Some of the dialogue is on-the-nose. We can see that Sebastian is nervous; he doesn't need to blurt it out. Don't say that something is beautiful, show it.

The cutting back and forth between the scene and the killer's POV reads awkward on the page. But I've figured out a way to get around this in my own script.

Try something like:

Code Dani slips her skirt down and over her feet. She tosses it into the car, onto the seat. Sebastian starts to undo his shirt buttons nervously. A STALKER watches them from across the lot. The two students are behind the car. They continue to undress. SEBASTIAN stands awkwardly in his boxers. He winces and looks at his bare feet on the gravel.

I would cut down on parentheticals. That's telling the actors how to say a line; it's directing on the page.

You should turn off (MORE) and (CONT'D) in your screenwriting software, unless it's a shooting script.

In your slugs, I wouldn't keep writing that it's night, unless it spans multiple nights. Just write it as:

Code EXT. IN THE WOODS - NIGHT Sebastian and Dani do something. EXT. ALONGSIDE THE CREEK Sebastian and Dani do something else.

It's understood to still be night. Look at Chupacabra for example. Only write the time of day if it changes from day to night, or night to day. Or it takes place in more than one day/night.

I don't know about the gun. Remember what The Joker said.

Code JOKER Do you know why I use a knife, Detective? Guns are too quick. You don't get to savor all the little emotions. See, in their last moments, people show you who they really are...

It's pretty good, though, so far. Keep it up.

Quoted from ChrisBodily The cutting back and forth between the scene and the killer's POV reads awkward on the page. But I've figured out a way to get around this in my own script. Try something like: Code Dani slips her skirt down and over her feet. She tosses it into the car, onto the seat. Sebastian starts to undo his shirt buttons nervously. A STALKER watches them from across the lot. The two students are behind the car. They continue to undress. SEBASTIAN stands awkwardly in his boxers. He winces and looks at his bare feet on the gravel.

Chris, although you can definitely use character or subject mini Slugs, they do not and will not duplicate a P.O.V. shot.

A P.O.V. provides a unique "angle", coming from someone or something.

In your example, you infer to show the stalker watching them.

Quoted from ChrisBodily In your slugs, I wouldn't keep writing that it's night, unless it spans multiple nights. Just write it as: Code EXT. IN THE WOODS - NIGHT Sebastian and Dani do something. EXT. ALONGSIDE THE CREEK Sebastian and Dani do something else. It's understood to still be night. Look at Chupacabra for example. Only write the time of day if it changes from day to night, or night to day. Or it takes place in more than one day/night.

That's not correct.  If you are properly using mini Slugs (and few do), you would not repeat the time element, but if you're using full Slugs, which you really should, you'll need the time element.

It is not understood that if there's no time element, it's still the same time.  What is understood is that the writer made a mistake.

Quoted from Dreamscale That's not correct.  If you are properly using mini Slugs (and few do), you would not repeat the time element, but if you're using full Slugs, which you really should, you'll need the time element. It is not understood that if there's no time element, it's still the same time.  What is understood is that the writer made a mistake.

According to Dr Format...

Quoted Text QUESTION Someone told me that using CONTINUOUS in slug lines [scene headings] is wrong. Is that true? ANWSWER (sic) What that person may have meant is if it is already obvious that one scene follows continuously a previous scene without any jump in time, then writing CONTINUOUS is not necessary. For example: INT. HOUSE – DAY John opens the door and steps out. EXT. HOUSE John steps onto the porch. In the above situation, it is obvious that one scene follows the previous scene continuously. However, if that is not clear, then definitely use CONTINUOUS so that the reader doesn’t misunderstand. FOLLOW-UP QUESTION QUESTION How about DAY or NIGHT? ANWSWER (sic) The same logic applies, but don’t outsmart yourself and confuse a reader who may wonder for a given scene, is it day or night?

I guess you're fine, Andy. I would "tread lightly" on the DAY/NIGHT argument.



Edit to add:

Here's another answer to the dreaded "Do I have to use DAY/NIGHT on every slug line?" question:

http://messageboard.donedealpro.com/boards/showthread.php?t=1411

Quoted Text Sir Pink Feb. 23, 2004 Is it necessary to put a DAY or NIGHT on every slug line?? When is it absolutely necessary to use LATER or SAME?? TwoBrad Bradley Feb. 3, 2004 Rules for people who believe there are no rules: 87. It is not necessary to put a DAY or NIGHT on every slug line. 88. It is never absolutely necessary to use LATER or SAME. MrErdnase Feb. 8, 2004 If it is an establishing shot/scene of THAT NIGHT or THAT DAY. Then it is absolutely necessary. But if there is another scene in another place on THAT SAME DAY happening at ABOUT the same moment or just moments later, I guess a "time" slug won't be necessary. Just as long as the reader knows that its the same day, same hour, etc... Hope that wasn't too confusing.

From http://www.writingclasses.com/Products/PubsDetail_Excerpt.php/ExcerptID/700:

Quoted Text MISCELLANEOUS MISTAKES Every slug line needs a time reference -- DAY, NIGHT, DUSK, MORNING.

I always use NIGHT or DAY if it's a new slug.
Use LATER or whatever in a mini-slug -- because you have established the main setting, and of course, time won't have changed drastically., you're just saying it's a little bit later. I know people frown on LATER as a mini-slug, but I have no problems with it if you use it well enough and for good reason.

I always keep DAY or NIGHT as part of the main scene heading.
Have to agree with Dreamscale on this one.

Once you cut away from the established scene, you need to say it's either night or day.
I'd politely propose a small change to fix Chris's suggestion.

EXT. IN THE WOODS - NIGHT (main slug)

Sebastian and Dani do something. They discover a creek.

ALONGSIDE THE CREEK (mini-slug)

Sebastian and Dani do something else.

INT. DANI'S HOUSE - NIGHT (main slug)
Dani and Sebastian look at wonderful photographs of them killing chickens on the Creek.

The POV can be suggestive... I'd just go with a heading of where we are and someone watching, depending on scene.
SOMEONE (underlined, not caps) watches so and so, breathing heavy like Myers, having a great time with their hands... whatever, whether they rush towards them or whatnot, and you need to switch reactions, is simplified by this method. It saves page space and it's understandable.
You don't want POV shots coming out of every page.

I read the opening page and it reads pretty well.
I'm not keen on the lonely "Then", or the parenthetical that describes his facial reaction. Not needed, and it costs you space.
First thoughts are that it's written well, but you could condense the opening page.
Then they chat a bit for 4 or 5 pages... it gets a bit bland.
Good writing, for the most part, all the best.

Hey Guys,

Been reading the discussion on Slugs carefully, thanks all.

Scoob, thanks for checking it out. I actually like slowburn horror and slashers with a  certain structure to them. It's definitely a choice, based on examples I like, but not the jump every ten mins model.

Saying that, It may not be a good choice, or the only choice. I've been doing a lot of condensing already, based on feedback here - and it was all for the better. Just the fact that you thought it was competent, but were not inclined to read on, makes me take the feedback seriously. Thanks again.

Quoted from Scoob Have to agree with Dreamscale on this one.

What exactly are you disagreeing with, Scoob?

Quoted from Scoob The POV can be suggestive... I'd just go with a heading of where we are and someone watching, depending on scene. SOMEONE (underlined, not caps) watches so and so, breathing heavy like Myers, having a great time with their hands... whatever, whether they rush towards them or whatnot, and you need to switch reactions, is simplified by this method. It saves page space and it's understandable. You don't want POV shots coming out of every page.

If the writer wants to use a POV, then it needs to be labeled as a POV.  The only way a POV works, or is effective, is when that POV is different than a normal shot.

It's shown through  different colored lens, blurry, distorted vision, through the eyeholes of a mask or the like, through leaves in the woods, through fence slats, from under a bed, inside a closet, or the like, or from a completely different angle - high up like a T Rex looking down at its prey, or down low, like snake looking up at its prey.

POV's should be used sparingly or not at all, as it is a form of trying to direct the shoot.

One should not worry about the extra line required to format it properly - worry more about writing it correctly and if you should be using it at all.

Quoted from Dreamscale POV's should be used sparingly or not at all, as it is a form of trying to direct the shoot.

Agreed. It's okay to play with a pov if it advances the story somehow -- like a killer who's face you dont want to reveal immediately, but if the director doesn't want to use your pov then you are just wasting space in your story.

OK, Andy, as promised, I revisited your script.

The intro is written much better now.  That's for sure.  IMO, there are still numerous issues, and I'll address them below.

Please understand I don't hold back on feedback and I tell it like I see it.  It's meant to help you as a writer, not hurt your feelings or put you down.

The beauty of feedback and advice is that the writer gets to decide what to listen to and what to ignore.  As you've seen already on this very thread, you're going to get many differing opinions.  It's up to you to decide what's right for you, what makes sense, and what doesn't.

Please note I got to Page 49 this time around, and I really wanted to keep going and even finsih, but nothing was happening and very little did actually happen.  You're way overwriting, and IMO, the 49 pages I did read should probably run about 25-30 pages max.  This means that your 85 page script is really only about 45-50 pages worth of screen time - more on this later...

SPOILERS     SPOILERS     SPOILERS     SPOILERS     SPOILERS     SPOILERS

OK, so I'm going to break this down for you into 2 parts.

This post will be on the technical stuff.  I'll write a 2nd post later on story, plot, dialogue, characters, and action.

Let's jump into the technical stuff first, and understand I did not take page by page notes, so this will be general, but also very important, IMO.

As I said, your writing is much better.  You took out most of the passive writing, and the "we sees/w hears".  Good job.

You've got typos still and awkward writing, but that takes time to catch, but you will definitely want to give this another serious sweep.

You have a tendency to write lines without any verb at all - maybe a result of trying to pull out the "is" stuff.  Nothing really wrong with this, but understand that when the majority of your lines are complete sentences, the ones that aren't stick out.

You also have a tendency to describe a character's traits or clothing well after they have been intro'd, and that's a mistake.

A bigger mistake is that you continually describe in great detail what each and every character is wearing, and unless it comes into play, it's a waste, as it's not your job to dress your characters, and it really gets in the way of the read, especially based on the vast number of characters you have (more on that in the 2nd post).

You're going way overboard on your wrylies.  The reality is that it's very rare that you ever really need them, unless you need to establish a speech pattern, an accent, or an occasional "whisper" or raised voice.  Every time you do this, you're using a line (or in some cases, 2 even, which you should never do), and you've got a boatload here.  It looks like you're averaging about 1 per page, meaning you have a page and a half of nothing but wrylies, which is way, way too much.

POV's look better, but can still use some attention.  Understand that when you use a POV, you need to describe exactly "what we see" and "how it looks".  The stalker is wearing a sock and a football helmet, so the view needs to reflect this, and you need to describe it that way.

BIGGEST technical issue is the extreme overwriting going on here on every single page.  First of all, you have to understand and believe that 1 page equals 1 minute of film time, averaged out over the entire script.  It's not an exact science, but you'll be surprised how close it will be, when the writing is "correct".  Because of this, you cannot note every detail you want to.  You cannot write every single action that takes place.  There are numeruos "things" that every good reader will assume happens.  No one wants to read about characters opening and shutting doors, unless there's a reason for it.  Same with all other assumed actions that aren't important to the story or tone.

If you look closely at your pages, you'll see how "dense" they are.  Even action heavy scripts can be written in a way that they won't be so dense.

Don't go over 4 lines in any passage.  Just don't do it.  Aim for 2 lines on average, and you'll be golden.  Nothing wrong with a 3 or 4 line passage, but they should not be the norm.

Passages should be broken up based on a single shot, thought, or description.  Think about it this way - if you filmed this yourself with a single camera, each time you have to move the camera, you should begin a new passage.

Once you get this down, you'll notice 2 things - first, you'll have alot more white space on every page and the read will be easier.  Secondly, you'll notice that because you now have more blank lines, your script will become longer, which means you have to write more effeciently...tighter, and avoid unnecessary detail.

AS I said above, I stopped because so little had happened in 49 pages, which should be the first 49 minutes of the film.  It's because of the overwriting and it's always a killer when this is the case.

Part 2 coming up a little later, as I have a phone call coming up.

Hope this helps and makes sense.

Andy, just ran through the first 12 pages, interesting stuff.  The naked in the woods thing makes one feel very venerable.  The psycho has a lot going on with him, didn't know where you were going to take that but it freaked me out.  I will keep reading but just wanted to give you some feedback.