Part 2 to cover story, plot, dialogue, characters, and action.

As before, this will also include SPOILERS     SPOILERS     SPOILERS     SPOILERS

STORY

49 pages in and I honestly don't see a story here.

With the horror genre, story is often lacking or low on the totem pole, but even a simple slasher or survival horror has a story - and that usually involves a group or a person trying to survive from something.  Hell, this simple story even pertains to the  disaster genre, if you really think about it.

But, this isn't the case here at all, as far as I can see, and it's a big issue, IMO.

Since I did not finish the script, I can't and won't tell you there's no story here, but within the first 49 pages, that seems to be the case.

PLOT

Just to be clear, plot relates to the events that make up a story.

In the first 49 pages, very little has occurred.  Let me try and recap...

Two "college aged" kids get attacked near Piper Creek by a "hulking man" wearing an odd getup with multiple killing instruments.  It is assumed that both Sebastien and Dani get killed, but no kill is actually shown.

From here, we meet a HUGE cast of High School students who talk an awful lot, a pair of younger Goth kids, and various others.

Sebastien shows up at a local bar and acts like he knows nothing about Dani's disappearance.

The kids go skinny dipping back at Piper Creek, drink beer, smoke weed, and make out.

One of the main group, Jay, hits on the Goth girl, Zoe, and when she refutes his advances, he punches her and tries to rape her, so she kills him with her switchblade knife.

Everyone shows up at "THE PARTY HOUSE" and a big party goes on.

That, in a nutshell, is all that's gone on in the first 49 pages, and for me, that is a huge problem.

DIALOGUE

This is another big problem area.  Everyone talks way too much.  Just look through, page by page, and see all the huge dialogue blocks.  Peeps don't speak this way, especially friends who are for the most part, just hanging out.

Much of the dialogue is unrealistic as well, IMO.  It's also heavy handed in tone about feminism and anti feminism.

All the characters sound the same.  Now, I know that many groups of friends talk that way, which is why they're friends, but some need to stand out...they need to have personality that shows through what and how they speak.  I don't see that here.

CHARACTERS

First off, there are simply way too many characters here.  Absolutely impossible to keep track with who is who.  Part of the problem is as I mentined above - no one stands out as being unique.  Another part of the problem is that characters come and go, have nothing to add to the scene, and nothing really happens in each scene, anyway.

You give many of your characters first and last names, which I appreciate, as it shows you put real thought into this.  Some characters even have middle names given, and I think one character had four names!  Then, you have many characters with generic, silly names - dancing girl, bar guy, etc.

Although I could name many of your characters, I can't really picture any of them, nor do I "know" any of them.

Bottom line - Just way, WAY too many characters, many of which are completely unecessary and really muddle things up.

ACTION

Well, there's been very little action to speak of, but your writing details every little action possible.

IMO, you're sorely missing action, but part of that problem is the amount of characters in each scene, the amount of pages given to each scene, and my inability to follow the importance of what's going on, or why you've chosen to include it.

RANDOM THOUGHTS

When I gave you feedback on your intro, I noted that you had multiple opportunities to show what all "good" horror flicks need - nudity and violence.  Now that I've read to Page 49, I have to step back and tell you that IMO, you've gone way over the line in terms of nudity, sex, and even graphic dialogue.  Your intro now has both characters completely nude, running around for minutes of film time.  The skinny dipping scene has 10+ characters all completely nude for many minutes of film time.  IMO, that's just too much and over the top, although the graphic violence part is still very underwhelming.

Andy, I just don't see any story here.  The plot that makes up the story is also very weak so far.  Way too many characters that all seem like clones of each other, spout off insane amounts of dialogue that goes nowhere for me, nor does it give character to anyone.  Action is few and far between and the first 49 pages could very easily be condensed and tightened to 25 - 30.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, as that's not my intent.  I do hope this helps you in some ways.

Take care, bro, and best of luck with this.

Hey guys.

Firsty, Tim, saw your comment in there, thanks. I got snowed under at work in the back end of the week, will defo get you some feedback on yours.

Dreamscale. That's awesome that you read on and gave so much feedback again. It's very gentlemanly of you to keep apologizing in advance, thanks. But, as you saw in the second read, I can take it and will make serious changes based on feedback - especially the technical side.

I am 100% going through again, thinking about the stuff in the technical advice. On the genre/creative side though, when you listed the main plot points above, I was pretty happy. Like, it didn't sound like a bad thing to me, as a movie. There are plenty of modern horrors that go slow and have way less story, two of my favorites are Ti West's House of the Devil, and Trigger Man. Of course, he directs them himself and funds them too, so I guess he could write note form on toilet paper. As for me, I'm here to get better at the format so a big thanks for the second read and long posts. And as you know from the first round, I'm definitely taking it seriously.

Thanks again to everyone who posted so far.

Andy, I actually finished your script yesterday.

If you want to hear my final thoughts, let me know, but IMO, things go downhill once everyone reaches the party house, and the final reveal didn't work at all for me, mostly because this character was never even seen a single time up until he's demasked...or better put, dehelmeted.  

Let me know, bro.

Hey, Andy, you can forget what I said about POV shots.

According to StorySense, this is how you should do it:

Quoted Text When a shot originates from a particular character’s point-of-view, it’s customary to break it out with its own slug line. This slug line must state the character by name and refer to what the character sees. It’s not enough to simply write “SHAMUS’ P.O.V.,” for example (using periods because it’s an abbreviation), without also specifying in the slug line what Shamus sees:

The example they give is:

Code Shamus' [should be Shamus's] P.O.V. - THE KILLER emerges from the shadows, his blade glinting in the light of a street lamp. BACK TO SCENE Shamus turns back, quickens his pace.

In your case, you can leave it as:

Code STALKER’S P.O.V. - ACROSS THE LOT The two students are behind the car. They continue to undress. BACK TO SCENE Sebastian stands awkwardly in his boxers. He winces and looks at his bare feet on the gravel.

Or try this:

Code STALKER’S P.O.V. - SEBASTIAN AND DANI The two students are behind the car. A STALKER watches from across the lot. They continue to undress. BACK TO SCENE Sebastian stands awkwardly in his boxers. He winces and looks at his bare feet on the gravel.

Looks like you got it pretty much right.

As far as the DAY and NIGHT thing, forget what I said in my first post. You're doing it right.

Quoted from Dreamscale What exactly are you disagreeing with, Scoob?

I probably meant I disagree with Dreamscale. That would make more sense, haha. But, perhaps we share similar thoughts regarding the NIGHT and DAY issue, that it should be used constantly unless you are using a mini-slug.  You don't just change from NIGHT when it turns to DAY, or when DAY turns to NIGHT, you keep it constantly in the slug.

That's what I do, and have done, and it's served me fine.  I'm sure some do it another way, like Dr. Format, so whatever.  There is no absolute definitive rule, and that's great.  Some see it one way, some see it another.

A spec, or a script, is just a blueprint anyway... it's not the end of the journey, it's merely the beginning. Worry about the story first. Format is important, but only the basics. It's going to change... constantly.

Quoted from Dreamscale If the writer wants to use a POV, then it needs to be labeled as a POV.  The only way a POV works, or is effective, is when that POV is different than a normal shot. It's shown through  different colored lens, blurry, distorted vision, through the eyeholes of a mask or the like, through leaves in the woods, through fence slats, from under a bed, inside a closet, or the like, or from a completely different angle - high up like a T Rex looking down at its prey, or down low, like snake looking up at its prey. POV's should be used sparingly or not at all, as it is a form of trying to direct the shoot. One should not worry about the extra line required to format it properly - worry more about writing it correctly and if you should be using it at all.

Regarding POV... yeah, you should always label it as a POV. I was offering alternatives to using it. You can suggest a POV , that way you're not directing a shot. The director will make all the changes he/she wants to and will see it as a POV shot anyway, so half the time you don't even need to write it as one. They're not thick, they know what the scene entails and how they want it to work for them.

Good luck with the script,Andy.  I skim read a bit of it again earlier and then checked out your book sample. You do have the chops, and congrats on writing a novel.  I'm a big fan of House Of The Devil myself and appreciate the slow burn approach ( I'm a Friday the 13th/Halloween fan too, but I would never say horror films rely on just guts and sex -- that's an outdated cliche)  but I think you need to escalate your story.  There's not much going on here... in House Of The Devil, there is a constant unease and an unknown threat.  I think when you've got a ton of characters involved, it always make it harder to build a rapport, or feel for the hero. You need to get to the point a bit quicker, but by no means losing the story you feel you have. Good luck.

Thanks Chris and Scoob.

Scoob, points taken.

I was seriously thinking about what Dreamscale was saying about action lines and how the real test of them is how much screen time they translate into. I think it often comes down to that thing whereby if you're are proven and in the industry you can get away with all kinds of shit, but if not, you have to write the tightest script known to man to get past the first step.

I watched Blade Runner yesterday, and the opening scene could be written (in the most economical, non-directing way ever) as just some thing like : a car flies over post-industrial Los Angeles, it is both terrible and beautiful.

... and in the film that takes 3-4 minutes or more. For one line.

Of course, most modern movies would use like a second for the same thing. time to give better directors the big budgets.

thanks again for even more comments guys. Got it re: slug lines

Quoted from Andy Best ...I watched Blade Runner yesterday, and the opening scene could be written (in the most economical, non-directing way ever) as just some thing like : a car flies over post-industrial Los Angeles, it is both terrible and beautiful. ... and in the film that takes 3-4 minutes or more. For one line.

Good points you make here Andy. In the end you should be economical but not sacrifice all creativity - even in a spec. Likelihood is the original script will go through many changes, and then some, so take advice where you see fit, but then write it as you see fit.

I read your opening when it was first posted btw, and you appear to have tightened up a lot of the action.

I've been very busy lately and haven't read much here in quite some time. I decided to read something while having lunch and took a look at some of the current scripts. I have seen your Piper Creek around for a while now and to be honest, the title didn't do much for me. I'm a horror fan. I even like slashers, but the title for some reason made me think it was more of a drama. Regardless, I read the logline and thought, cool, a horror! I'll give the first few a read and see where it goes. I read the first eight. I might continue later, but these are my initial thoughts on your script.

I'm not going to worry too much about the technical stuff. I'm sure the others, especially Jeff have you covered there, but I have to mention INT. INSIDE SEBASTIAN'S CAR. Well, obviously it's inside his car. You already told us that when you wrote INT.

You could also look over how many time you use "slowly". Try to find better action verbs that describe the action. It's nothing really wrong with slowly, but after a while, it starts to stand out.

Okay, onto the story...

IMHO, this moves way too slow. By that, I don't mean you need to hurry up and have people killed. I'm referring to what's going on. There's just way too much idle chit chat going here. You also start this script off with two people talking in a car. This goes on for several minutes. Think about it. If you are going to watch a "movie" isn't that very visually boring? Not only are they chatting about uninteresting stuff, they are also doing uninteresting things. You can get away with boring chit chat if we're entertained by the visuals. You can also get away with people doing visually boring stuff like sitting in a car if you have some really really good dialogue going on, but you can't have uninteresting visuals and dialogue at the same time. That's when people start to reach for the remote.

Your characters. Dani was okay for the pages I read, but Sebastian didn't work for me at all. I couldn't stand him. I couldn't wait for the lurking figure with the P.O.V. to kill him.

IMHO, you need to work on the above mentioned things, set a better tone or mood for this if it's really a slasher. Other than the lurking figure, this could be a teen drama or some kind of teenage romance. Nothing here set the tone for a horror so far.  

Hope any of this can be helpful and I wish you the best with the rewrites.  

Pia  

Hi. Andy. I'll just jump right in.

Usually, a story will establish its genre early. While that’s done here, and we get the unaware and nude young adults being attacked. I’m more than half way through, and I haven’t seen much resembling that opening.  We follow, a young girl, Jessica, who has a real internal issue. She’s yet to come to grips with a girl being raped and the community in which it took place. How is this hindering her and more importantly her relationships? How will dealing with this killer get her through those issues?

I’m almost as interested in the story before this about the rape and backlash. Don’t get me wrong the potential for the aftermath is there, however, I just don’t see it or enough of it. The scene were the cops and clerk speak of it and how the look after Jessica as she walks out, I’m speaking of something akin to that maybe more subtle. Not so on nose as some reviewers have spoken of being too “preachy.” Create that tension while we are waiting for the kills. Is this something you were going for or not? I'm always interested in what the writer is attempting get me a better idea of how to help them. These are just my opinions, and if they help great. I’m always learning myself usually from reading and interacting with others.

BLB

Thanks for more comments everyone.

Hey BLB. It's interesting what you said about the backstory, because it's based on elements of two real life stories that I assume everyone in the English speaking world is familiar with: The Stuebenville Rape case which was put out on social media, partially covered up then exposed by hackers. And, the U Penn child abuse cover up and backlash against going after JoPa for covering it up. Also, and this only makes sense when you've read the whole story, Sebastian is partly based on Eliot Roger too.

The preachy parts are supposed to be more self-consciously punk or provocative, but that would live or die with the director.

If you're familiar with those cases, there's a lot going on in the script. But here's the thing ... not so long ago, me and some friends did a reading, informally. And both of them gave the feedback that they felt there was missing backstory or that they couldn't piece together what the cops were alluding too.

So I mentioned the cases, and they both - and these are well read 25-35 age Americans - had no idea about either case.

So I have been thinking about this a lot, but haven't addressed it in the script because I had to sort out the technical language first as I'm new to the format - I mean new to doing it full length and to a high see-in-public industry standard. and it brings me to another issue ... how much signposting do you do before it becomes dumb. Where's the line of treating your viewers like they know thing, especially big news things.

Even in mainstream movies. I remember Rodger Ebert's review of The Tall Guy, he gave it an almost unqualified high rating just on the basis that it had intelligent references and expected people to be smart on stuff like theatre. It's online.

What I mean is, all this feedback throws up great issues in my mind. It's really helping.

To that point, I should clarify that my previous point about action lines to screen time was not a rebuttal to Jeff's comments (dreamscale) but rather some thoughts provoked by him bringing it up.

Edit: addendum : if you've read the script, 'two lives were ruined' is an actual quote. It's what a CNN reporter controversially said when the two boys were convicted of rape in the Steubenville case. In fact the 'on-the-nose' conversation (in that exact case)  is made up of actual high profile media commentary during the case.

Hey, Andy it's good to hear your brain is still cooking on this. I remember the Penn State scandal, and this topic or issue is a big one. Which is why I mentioned deep potential here, abuse of power is a relatable subject, scandal sex or otherwise is relatable, if people weren't personal affected by one or the other they've definitely heard of it via news or word of mouth.

I completely understand where you are coming from as far as treating your audience as if they are active participants in understanding the story. Great outlook. This is why I'm a huge fan of subtext and context when it comes to story telling, especially setup in the beginning.

I guess I would of liked to have seen in more subtle ways of how other characters felt or how the community or school have changed or not changed and the subtle tension. It sounds as if the rape and what transpired was a huge deal. Did make campus news? Local news? National news? Then again there was another attempted rape and actual rape that took place, which I guess the commentary could be things haven't changed, which sucks but most likely true.

Also, this is a horror, more particularly a slasher, and we get the initial kill and I don't mind that another kills doesn't come for quite some time. However, I'd like something to chew on in between which I think is the effect of the case. I didn't mean to write so much, but I get excited sometimes. I do like it's a slasher which many say is misogynistic and you have this whole rape theme. Many, say rape is about power, cover-up is abuse of power. I'd love to those in power somewhere in this story. Anyway, I'm going to finish this baby up. I'm curious now.

Good luck, on your next go around. Oh, and there's documentary called "The Invisible War," worth checking out deals with similar theme.

BLB

BLB, will check out the documentary, and thanks for the extra thoughts ... giving me some more approaches to think about. The two guys I mentioned also said they felt some TV coverage or more background wouldn't be over the top and they like to see it. I heard it three times now, seems I should put something in and see.

Hi Andy,
    I'm up to page 35 and I'm kinda losing interest.  I've read some of the reviews and they are spot on.  Too much description.  Too much everything, except getting to the action.

In some ways, this almost reads like it's for teenage boys who go to movies to see T and A and violent murders.  Don't get me wrong, they do, but, sometimes, the good ones, they stick around longer by being different.

Is there any reason for all of them to get naked and mess around except to get the views engrossed?  

Some of the best slashers around, Friday the 13th, Halloween, even classics like April fools Day (I'm talking originals) all have reasons why stuff happens.  I'm up to page 35 and we aren't anywhere in terms of the plot, and the movie is already 1/3 over.  See the problem?

I know we all have different ways of writing, but, I might suggest making a story board or a page to write out the scenes.  Screenplay writing is very different then normal stories because Steven King can write a 600 page novel, NO ONE will ever write a 600 page screenplay.  If you plot out all of the major points and fill them in with the movie, you will see that it goes much faster and is much more streamlined.

Personally, for a slasher, I'd write 2 pages, the story breakdown by scene, then the personal arcs.  Look at Scream.  That was a totally different take on itself.  

We have to be clever how we get people to do things.  I know when I put myself in a story, I always ask myself would I EVER do this?  I might try to write an intelligent slasher one day.  

I'm gonna try to finish this off, but, far too much dialog and far too much "common slasher" tropes.  

I am really confused.  That is not good...
1.  More then half the deaths aren't realistic.  
2.  The actions of the kids aren't realistic either.

This is another pet peeve of mine.  WE all live in a post 9-11 world.  People don't act like this anymore.  They'd fight, it's okay if they lose, but, a house with that many people, all of which know the deal, kill or be killed, would find a thousand weapons to match him with.  

If the cops are in the front of the house, why are they headed towards the woody area?  WHY???

Why are the cops standing around?  Like I said, I'm so confused....

Oh, the time it would take Hulking Man to maneuver all those items and the weight of them isn't dealt with, especially physics wise.

Is everyone in the town psychotic??????

Seriously, they are having a pow-wow about who is more at fault????  Is this a slasher or a commentary??????

Sorry, but, there are a ton of faults.  I'd seriously go back and look at the message you want.  There are so many forced actions that don't make sense here.  I don't want to sound like an idiot or an azzwipe, but, everyone is psycho, everyone tries to rape the women, everyone is deplorable.  I know this is your second attempt at it, and the story has promise and is important in the world today.  

It CAN work, but, you need to tear it all apart, and build anew.  Make the dialog a zillion times more interesting, even comical.  

After a night of sleeping on it, here's my final review:

The story CAN work.  It's socially important.  As it is right now, it doesn't.  IF I was writing it, here is what I'd suggest:

1.  Change Sebastian's last name.  Make him the illegitimate son of the coach.  After all, women are only there to please men, right?

2.  One of the biggest issues is psychology.  They don't have any depth, they are wind-up dolls that spew the same stuff, different page.  That and the killer's physics of his never-ending barrage of weapons, all of which are heavy.

3.  Why the murder by Zoe?  Why isn't she freaking out?  14 year old that is almost raped and then murders her sister's "friend"???

4.  Show the town being split by the event.  Have graffiti on the walls.  Have notes being passed out.  Narrow the characters down and have a few really interesting and not a lot really "tropeish"

5.  Rework everything.  Nothing naturally happens.  

6.  I am sure that Seb knows that his dad is the killer.  Why does dad stop his son from being laid?  I think a golden moment there could be as the killer "forces" Dani to do whatever a supposedly terrified Seb wants her to do.  

The entire story has to make sense from start to finish, and then over a second time.  IF this was the heyday of the 80s this might be good enough, but, it's not.  People are different today.  The best character is Zoe and she's insane.  None of the other characters change.

Even in a slasher, people have to change and grow.  Even if that growth is negative.  

All the nudity is gonna be a problem too.  You have a lot of lower frontal nudity in the script.  How many slashers show lower female frontal?  How many show men fully naked?  Unless you are going for a XXX, I don't see how this is doable.  

You have a compelling story and a great scandal.  Let that play out, that culminates in a slasher.  Make it smart, witty, fun, perhaps do some research first.

Good luck

Dan