Piper Creek by Andy Best - Horror, Slasher - A classic style slasher. Jessica lives in town rocked by a social media rape case and a sports team ban. As the first big party since the case approaches, can she survive a volatile atmosphere and a misogynist revenge killer?  86 pages - pdf, format

I'm Andy, the writer. Letting you all know that I'm on the boards and would love to exchange reviews, read scripts and get feedback. Here is fine, e-mail is fine too.

Welcome aboard, Andy.  I see you already read and commented on another script, which is great to see.  It's a Quid Pro Quo world here, and the more you give out, the more you'll get back.

I gave your script a shot, and read your opening, but started skimming near the end.

Here are my thoughts and recommendations...

At 12 pages, your intro is way too long.  It's highly unlikely it would last more than 7 or 8 minutes of film time, nor should it.  Bottom line is that it's way overwritten, with way too much unnecessary detail.

Although your writing overall seems pretty good, you have numeruos issues you'll need to work on.

You use the verb "is" way, WAY too much.  In screenwriting, sentences with "is" don't carry the power you're after.  Use this sparingly at most, never, if possible.

Learn how to use and format P.O.V. shots.  It's quite simple, actually, but still hard to pull off correctly.  It's also something that should be used sparingly, and only when it adds to the script (which it easily can here, as Slashers and creatures features are where it works best), but also understand when you do this, you're attempting to direct the shot, and that's not the Spec Writer's job.

Stay away from using "we see" and "we hear".  They are complete wastes of space, and IMO, come off very amateur.  There are so many ways to write the lines without using these, and you'll find your script will read so much better.  If there's a time there's no getting around it, no big deal, but you can't bludgeon us over the head with this over and over.

Finally, understand exactly what you're after, including tone, rating, and the audience you're after.  I'm not saying you're not aware of this, but as a lover of Slasher and horror movies, for me, you've committed numerous sins in your opening scene and it's unlikely I'd watch any further, if this were a film.

Slasher fans want T & A, a hard R rating, and graphic violence.  Your opening is 12 pages and you have 2 kills (in theory), but you show us almost nothing.  Other than a few slashes, it's all implied.  Same with the nudity and sex - it appears to be there, but we don't see anything.  Basically, you've got an R rating already, but nothing that anyone wants to see.

In Sebastian, you've thrown in the classic and cliched virgin dude who somehow has  a babe to himself and gets a nice BJ and who knows what would have followed if not for our Hulking Man who ruins it for him.  I understand how cliche and goofy most Slaher films are, but understand what killed them and sent them DTV.  I think you can do alot better than this setup.

Hopefully, this doesn't come across as harsh, as I actually want to help.  If you have questions on anything I brought up, let me know and I'll try and provide more detail.

I look forward to seeing you around Simply Scripts. It's a great place to learn, read, and also help others.

Take care, bro.    

Hi Dreamscale.

Don't worry about being harsh, no problem. Thanks for posting on my script, it's very nice of you to give your time. It's great to get all points of view.

I'm also a big fan of horror, especially 80s slashers which I grew up with, although most of them, if they started with one at all, would be pretty bad in screenplay form.

The opening's style, length and content is based on previous examples and conventions from a bunch of those movies, although I have my own take. That's not me dismissing your crit though, I will go back and re-read the opening with what you said in mind.

The only point I don't think I understand is using "is" too much. You can't mean skipping the verb 'to be' so I don't think I know what you mean there. I'll check the 'we sees' yeah. As for the idea of 'T&A' there's something a bit different going in the screenplay on that count ... mind you, that doesn't mean anything if you couldn't make it there without skipping.

By the way, do you have a current script you'd like me to look at? I'll click through your profile and check.

Thanks again.

Andy, if you'd like to read something of mine, I could send you the latest version through E-mail.

Are you looking for a feature or a short?

Let me know and I'll shoot you some over.

In terms of your question about using "is" and "to be", I mean exactly what I said.  "is" is a very weak verb.  It does not show action.  It is often passive.  It reads as if you're merely stating facts.  You'll want to write as visually as you can, so your readers can literally visualize what it is you're trying to present.

Does that make sense?

Obviously, all writing will contain sentences with "is", but you want to refrain as much as you can.  Reread your opening and count how many sentences are of this variety.

Take care.

On the 'is' thing -

Sitting in the driver’s seat is SEBASTIAN PAOLINO. He is college age with a baby face. He is slim and wears a tight fitting button up shirt.

Or

SEBASTIAN PAOLINO sits in the driver's seat. College age, baby faced and slim. He wears a tight fitting button up shirt.

"Is" is sometimes redundant and losing it can result in a snappier and more 'present tense' screenplay style. Although I've read a bit of your script and there's FAR WORSE offenders out there. Your style is still a good read for me. But slasher pics aren't my thing, so that's as far as I'll go with this one I'm afraid. Good luck with it!

Ah, I got it. Thanks guys.

Dreamscale, would love to, use e-mail. Mine's on here and on the cover of the script.

Quoted from Andy Best Ah, I got it. Thanks guys.Dreamscale, would love to, use e-mail. Mine's on here and on the cover of the script.

OK, will do...

By the way guys, and anyone else reviewing it. I'm currently following the advice and culling/changing all the passive language and redundancies. Anyone reading the original here, I'd still love as much thoughts as you have. and I'll read a full length from anyone who posts or mails.

What's the etiquette here if I want to eventually replace the original draft with the one reflecting the advice? Don't want to make the earlier posts look off.

Thanks again, everyone who took the time to read a bit.

Alexthewebb, I know you only looked at the opening, but I'll review a short if you have one. Hit me up.

Had time for the first 20-ish. Will return. If my tone gets prescriptive at points, it's only for efficiency's sake! I know no less or more than the next person.

Page 3: Dialogue’s good, but I wonder if some of the front end couldn’t be skipped without losing too much. It might be worth just keeping it visual – he’s super nervous, goes for the beer as a last resort, she grabs his arm. The interesting conflict is over the comment, so it might be worth just opening with that. Plus, the line’s so good – did Gina tell you what Brett said – that it’d make for a more unique and less expected opener than the usual makeout point nervousness. Or, in other words, it’s just a lot of talking here that could and probably should be cut down.

Page 4: Again, less dialogue here would be more engaging. What are we doing? She slips her skirt off – whoa. No need to let us know that it’s about swimming right away. This is a way more, er, pregnant moment if she just strips and expects him to do the same. Let him sweat a little. This will also help (increase) our irritation at Sebastian’s continued proposed safety precautions later down the page – what starts as a quiet moment is ruined by his nervous questions – but let them have the moment!

Page 5: Might be worth a new slug for the POV. Had to read this twice before I understood that we were cutting away-ish.

Page 6: To me, the meat of this scene is the fact that she hasn’t done this before. Dreamed about it because of Thoreau – relevant. Witty banter about Thoreau – less relevant. I mention in particular because we are spending a LOT of time on a very traditional slasher opening. The characters are fine and the feminization of Sebastian is a fun little bend in the genre, but this is a genre that has been parodied and innovated endlessly and at the end of the day, all that’s keeping us going is a genre trick from 1974. I’d hurry through this stuff.

Page 10: Just a personal note, but I’m not a fan of the gun…so far, anyway. It’s an unusual element for the typically brute slasher, but it hasn’t done anything very interesting here yet. The threat of the silenced pistol typically signifies a quick and clean death in film, and it’s working here against the messy, blunt threat of the other weapons. In my head, anyway.

Page 12: A very fun and reasonably unique first sequence marred somewhat by an overabundance of dialogue. Sets the stage for something that is both classical and self-aware. I’m looking forward to this, at this point. I do stand by my initial thought that we’re a bit long in getting to what makes this unique, too – the slasher POV is fun but not as interesting as the first appearance (and subsequent discrimination) of the killer. Maybe I am a fan of the gun, now seeing how things play out.
“The music fades…” Might be worth signaling this with a “NOTE:” so that we’re clear it’s a production note. Just for clarity.

Page 13: I’m missing what happens in this beat, a little bit. They stop talking and look at her sourly when she enters? I’m assuming that we’re establishing that the men of this town dislike her, or perhaps that there’s a general gender divide. I’m just not quite clear, with this specific beat, if what’s happening is that they’re talking, she enters, they stop talking, she leaves, they start talking again. Is that right?

Page 16: The reiteration of, er, rape apologist views here goes on a little long. It’s played pretty straight, so there’s not much fun to be had in a satirical sense, but the responses don’t have much character, so there’s not much elsewhere, either. They feel a bit like mouthpieces, here – I suppose one might argue they function as mouthpieces in their world, too, but it just feels a little bland here.
Page 19: Mr. Hitchens, on the other hand, functions quite comfortably as satire, but it’s a little unmodulated. I think this scene might be more fun if, rather than opening at ten with “feminazis” and continuing at ten, you allowed us to remain a little ambivalent to him here…give us some suspense as to exactly how much of a shithead he is. “Full-raped” will function as a perfect beat if you just leave room to build to it.
Less interested in the reiteration of the Boys’ harassment. The important point being made, I think, is the continuity of culture between the adults in the store and the boys at school. If you nail that parallel – and I’d suggest making it stronger by, perhaps, using a parallel line, or a visual conflation of some sort – then it should be all you need to create the aggressive patriarchal environment that’s being built here. If it goes too strong – and it does, right now, in my opinion – it’ll feel like a caricature not of the individuals, but of the societal construct, and that’ll shut things down. Note, for instance, the relative subtlety of All the Boys Love Mandy Lane versus the aggressive thematization in Girls Against Boys. Both enjoyable films, but yours here (so far) seems closer in spirit to the former while (to my eye) running a risk of being closer in presentation to the latter.
Page 22: Note per the above that the school scenes – now that they are leaving the location – have had very little plot purpose but very great (I am arguing, too great) thematic purpose.

Page 23: Linda’s story in particular bugs me. I get the desire to establish pervasiveness, here, but at the same time, it’d be nice to get to see these people relax. That is, women alone together talking about nothing about patriarchy still fails the Bechdel Test in my books, haha. I think the scene would be more interesting if Sebastian was the inciting beat for the conversation to turn to nastiness.

Name's Chris, by the way. Nice to meet you.

Andy,
Please take my review as you wish. I am only one opinion.

Spoilers********





Piper Creek, a modern day take on a slasher film that attempts to incorporate more recent social issues but unfortunately gets bogged down in its own social mud. Slasher films can be a difficult genre to get right. Either you're too formulaic or you don't stick with the genre close enough. Either way, it is difficult to get these things just right.

The film starts out with a bang though it relies too much on this opening kill to propel the story up into and through the second act. In a slasher film, the second act should be just that, the killer trying to kill and the "victims" trying to stay alive. This didn't occur. Instead we follow a group of young college kids around town, watching them do uninteresting things. The killer doesn't even come around until almost page 60. This is too long. There needs to be more of a presence. The killer needs to be "right around the corner". This is what your suspense should be built upon. As is, you have nothing to show us during the second act. In fact, you are still trying to build and introduce the characters to your audience. This should be done within the first few pages. I'll use eldave1's script, "The Beginning of The End, And The End" because it is fresh in my mind. In the first few pages, we know that we are dealing with a woman who is a romantic at heart, yet has some doubt about who she is. We see this with a simple interaction between her sitting in a car, seeing other pedestrians around her and her reactions to them. With your rewrite, you should concentrate on the second act being a cat and mouse between the killer and one or more characters.

The tone (and purpose) of the script was all over the place. At times it felt like a sermon on women's rights, other times (very briefly) it was a slasher film. At times, I felt knee deep in overly-preachy dialogue and had to force myself to keep reading. I think trying to be so in-your-face with a message weighed the piece down and didn't allow it to get off the ground. Along the same lines, I feel you should have shown instead of giving us across-the-table dialogue. It's a visual medium. SHOW us something. I want to see the characters live out their expectations, their beliefs. I don't want to hear them speak about it.

One exercise that I have begun doing when I write is when I place two characters in a scene, I think about what each one wants to accomplish. Every person (in a film) has a motive, something they want or need. The other character in the scene will likely have their own desires. Hence, this drives their actions and conversations, within that scene. One may want to get in bed with the other character while the other needs information on a disappearance. Each will try to push the conversation to get what they want. I'll use Silver Linings Playbook (don't know why I've been referencing this film?). When the two characters are in the diner for the first time, the girl wants to sleep with the guy and the guy just wants to get the hell out of there. Their actions, dialogue are centered around their own personal needs and wants. The conversation isn't a reciprocal one. They aren't really listening to the other person. Each is thinking... "what do I need to say or do to get what I want?". As is, your characters walk into a scene one way, and leave the exact same way, with the same feelings, thoughts, etc.

The pace and suspense should build throughout the second act util the climax. There isn't any build here. Just scenes of kids being kids. A key flaw in this piece. The main reason for this is that none of the characters had a clearly defined goal. They spoke about a lot of heavy things going on around town but there was nothing we could grab onto. Root for. Jessica (or another character) needs to have a clearly defined goal early on. Obviously, in this case, that should be trying to find Dani or her killer. This should drive her actions, conversations, etc.

CHARACTERS:
As I said, we don't get a sense of who our protagonist is really. In the opening sequence, we see her (Jessica) walking around though she does nothing of significance that demonstrates who this person is. In fact, we know your characters superficially, but we don't really know ANY of them. What makes them tick? What belief would they die for? The only exception is Jessica's younger sister. I really liked her and she came alive on the page. I wanted to see more of her. The rest of the characters I could care less about.

Is there a reason all your women are "bad-asses" and all your male characters are douches?

I didn't like anyone so I didn't care if they lived or died. The only exception is Jessica's sister. I would have liked her to be the killer! No film has a young, teenage fem-nazi as the killer.

All in all, the story never got off the ground and felt flat most of the way through. While the technical writing was fine, the story telling needs to be re-worked.

Specific thoughts:
PG4 I thought Dani wanted to "take it slow"?
PG9 What an odd looking killer. I'm trying to wrap my head around this image. Why not kill the guy initially? I like character descriptions less specific. I don't care about what shirt someone is wearing. No one will ever remember this while reading.

Strange to have "coffee and doughnuts" being served in a hardware store?

PG18 Wouldn't call kids reading novels a "typical high school class"
PG20 I wann see her play!
PG24 Are all guys dicks in this town?
PG26 Why suddenly bring up Dani's disappearance to a random guy? Not small talk I'd be leading with.  If the point is to show the "word is out" that Dani was missing, this would be better as a visual. Show a brief image of someone hanging a missing person's sign around campus.
PG27 Use a parenthetical to show him addressing Nadi and Jessica.
PG29-30 Best character so far with the best dialogue. I like this Zoe girl.
PG 35 I feel like most of the dialogue is on-the-nose and forced.
PG 38 Find a way to say this better. "...on the far side and Nadi."
PG 44 Good girl. I feel like she should be our protagonist.
PG 45 Again, the description of the party house is awkward. Is it isolated and surrounded by trees? Need to be more economical with your words.
Still don't get our killer. Drill...machete...and gun? All good killers have a preferred method. Think Jason, Texas Chain Saw.
PG 46 Many character's actions are superfluous. Terry and doorman's interaction for instance.
PG 50 Would these girls really be that consumed by some asshole's behavior on the internet? Why such interest? I don't get it.
As is, there is no second act. If this is a story about a killer on the loose, then he/she needs to be more present during the second act.
PG 58 Jeeze. All the guys are so sensitive, weak and have absolutely no charm. No way Nandi would fall for a guy like that.
PG 62 Why would the killer expose himself to the rest of the partygoers? He's way outnumbered. Why is the whole party not in chaos right now?
PG 64 Again, your male characters are all weak, scared. Was this intentional?
PG 65 So you have a house full of college kids, and none are running or screaming for their lives? Screaming to get the hell out of there? There'd be chaos right now.
PG 65 I don't picture Jessica as being tough. this was never set up in the beginning. She can't be scared to go to a party, then get a bat to go after some crazed lunatic killer who has killed several people!
PG 68 She's right, bad time to be discussing this.
PG 73 WTF? Sebastian with his face gone, has time to fondle breasts?
PG 74 Why is Jessica hitting random guys with the bat? Shouldn't she be asking for help?
PG 82 Again, I don't buy a girl is going to stand and face this guy. Especially one like Jessica.
PG 84 I don't get it? Why kill everyone? Not just the women?

While I thought the pieces were floating around, they were not put together well. This has the potential to be a good slasher film.

I hope this didn't come off the wrong way. I want to give honest feedback when I read. This can be the most helpful, though sometimes difficult. Good luck with this, Andy. I'd be happy to read another draft when you are done.

Best,
Joseph

Hey Chris and Joseph.

No need to apologize, but very nice to do so anyway. It's tough giving, and taking proper, rigorous criticism. I'm up for it, no worries.

Thank you very much, both you guys, for long detailed feedback. Amazing and way more than I'd expect. I've had a look at one of Joseph's scripts, Chris, would you like to point me at one of yours? It's the least I could do.

Some of the points mentioned are very much by design, regardless, the more meta side. However, a lot of both your points reflect some earlier crit too, and I'm working on it at the mo. I'm going through, replacing the passive action lines with simple present tense, tighter lines. I'm cutting a lot of redundant descriptors and doing the POVs properly and cleanly.

I hope that after this cull, it will read faster and more dynamic in general, which may also alleviate some of the other points you guys mention.

Some of it stays, it should be a little dialogue heavy and hit you over the head, also a little slow burn, to prepare for the third act bloodbath. Football pads on the killer and pervasive douchey guys and rape-apology BS must stay too, for Jessica to symbolically bludgeon them at the end.

My mass cull is freeing up at least 4 pages (i'm taking this feedback seriously), so could get an extra scene or two in there to address some other stuff you both mention.

This is great.

Thanks everyone.

I don't have any scripts I need reviewed at the moment, but if you'd consider checking out our movies (link in sig) and maybe giving us a comment/like/subscribe, that'd be awesome!

Continuing!

Page 32: The Zoe/Lisa/Terry scene is super boring until the argument about Jay. The scene has no plot purpose and feels by far the most didactic yet. "9-1-1 is a joke" - "Protection" - *Switchblade* says way more and is way more interesting than the rest of this scene.

Page 39: The stuff at Piper Creek is really good. The effectiveness of these depictions of character dynamics, despite their (relative) subtlety, makes it all the more clear that a lot of the first act goes overboard in explicating the script's perspective.

Page 45: I like the defeat of the generic male gaze here -- especially the hand reaching out and having its fingers slashed -- but it's a little undercut by the fact that we don't know Jay very well. I wonder if there's an opportunity to build up the relationship, or even just Jay, a little bit more. The more we are surprised by, but invested in, this reveal of Jay's character, the more effectively the conflation of his gaze with the genre killer's gaze will be, I think. That is, if we understand him more multi-dimensionally ahead of time, the full reveal of his personality here, combined with the POV trick, will land more heavily.

Page 55: See, the fight between Jessica and Terry is an engaging way of exploring the script's main ideas because it's fully integrated with the plot and character arcs. Jessica wants to leave the party, Terry wants to stay; Jessica wants to reject the status quo, Terry wants to maintain it. The scene appeals to its issues, but it's also a fight between two people in a relationship who want very different things. This is the sort of unity -- of plot, character, theme -- that is lacking from many of the earlier discussions. Here, finally, the political is personal.

Page 65: Wait, did they hide safe in the bathroom and leave Halter Girl out in the bedroom? They should help her.

Page 66: Phil's stand is well done. It might be cool if he called for help, like to another guy hiding under a table nearby or whatever -- a guy that could help but runs away instead.
There have been a few small moments of dialogue that bump me for sounding, er, mature? One example is here, when Jessica says "The guy fired on us." I think earlier, someone said "fucking about" or something like that -- should have noted it. In any case, just a couple stiff lines here and there that are a bit of a bump.

Page 69: So I see why Halter Girl was left on the bed -- for these images -- but I still think it doesn't work to have Jessica and Linda go right past her, lock themselves safely in the bathroom, and leave her to die.

Page 77: The Zoe scene here works well for me (and I was wondering about her!) due to its sort of absurdist bent. There's a lot more (dark) humour here than in the first act scenes, which I think makes it work a lot better. It keeps us off-balanced and engaged.

Thoughts:

So I'm reasonably on board here, I just think this thing needs to lose most of the dialogue of the sort that people will call "preachy." It's a visual medium, and the "small" visual moments -- like grown men checking out Jessica's rear at the start -- will say way more than the dialogue ever can, in way less time, with way more effect (and affect!). I suspect almost all readers, regardless of their stances, will agree on this point. I'm a feminist and just found myself a little bit bored by the endless theoretical/abstract talk; those less sympathetic to the script's position are more likely to just be put off altogether, I think. The script points outside itself a lot -- most notably to Steubenville and the sorts of sentiments that became prominent in the discourse around Steubenville -- but things don't have much force in movies unless they have a visual presence. It's fine that this is a small town in the wake of a Steubenville-type case, but this needs to be integrated into the actual plot a little bit better. I've pointed out above that the way these issues drive a wedge between Jessica and Terry is well handled; we need more, I think, like that. Scripts like Lucky McKee's The Woman or All Cheerleaders Die are (potentially) effective because they depict, on screen, central to the plot, their broader or theoretical concerns. I'm not saying that Piper Creek should be as, er, thematically abstruse as The Woman -- it's good that the characters are feminists who talk about feminism. But the fact that they're feminists talking about feminism isn't interesting -- the fact that they're feminists talking about feminism AND that the issues they discuss are directly present in the parts of their lives that are central to the plot -- that's interesting. If that makes sense.

In a simpler and similar vein, I don't mind that the script is talky -- I'm a Before Midnight guy -- but I do mind when that talking seems didactic. Sometimes here, it feels as though the characters are talking about feminism not because they want to, but because the writer wants them to. Action, plot, should incite these discussions. This is, for example, why I thought the conversation should turn serious in the bar only after the women saw Sebastian -- he incites that conversation. Before, they were talking so free and loose when they weren't discussing patriarchy, and it felt so placed when they were.

The end of Sebastian was pretty hilarious, but, like Joseph above, I had trouble believing Nandi would bother to spend time with him. I get that he's not threatening, it's just that he's also not interesting at all. It'd be nice to see him pick up on some key thing about her -- to see what might have been attractive about him. We accept it at the start, with Dani, but with Nandi it was not as convincing, because we've seen their (nonexistent) courtship.

The revelation of Linda's past with Terry didn't land quite as well as it should have -- this is the key sort of final beat in the arc of Jessica being mistreated. I think what might elevate this scene a bit is if it happens while the Hulking Man is in the room, drilling Halter Girl...that is, if it's a whispered confession that Linda makes because she thinks they're about to die that very second.

Jessica didn't feel quite fully dimensional to me. She's passive and viewed a lot more than anything in the first half of the script, which fits the script's purposes but doesn't make her all that interesting. There's a lot of potential in the relationship between her and Terry, and her sense that maybe it's not quite right, but right now, on the page, I'm not finding her all that interesting. This is part of why I was excited when the women were talking in the bar, and sad that it turned immediately to the script's main concerns -- I just wanted to get to know Jessica. Specifically, Jessica by herself. The one little scene with her eating and Ms. Chen kicking her out made me want more. We constantly see how she's treated -- it would be cool to get more of her alone, and see how she treats herself.

I gotta run now but may have more thoughts later.

God almighty. You'd think this script was "Finnegan's Wake," given the voluminous analysis/comments.

This not a knock on "Piper Creek." I read enough ( 20 pages or so) to know Andy has talent.

But, Jeeze, people are going on and on and on with their own personal opinions about this and that, page by page, pontificating. Lord!

Too much feedback is just that -- too much. Especially if you're new to SS. Andy's been a member for, what,
four days? Now, I suppose he may well say, "No, it's fine, I appreciate the reading, the ideas, the valuable suggestions. I welcome criticism."

But to Andy, I say,  trust your instincts.  Some of  what you are reading is show-off analysis.

All of which raises the issue of feedback in general. What do individual writers want from feedback?

Henry

^ My review of Finnegan's Wake: probably brilliant, definitely awful to read.

I'll be sure to be similarly terse and bland should I ever come to review one of your scripts, Henry.

Quoted from Stumpzian God almighty. You'd think this script was "Finnegan's Wake," given the voluminous analysis/comments. But, Jeeze, people are going on and on and on with their own personal opinions about this and that, page by page, pontificating. Lord! Too much feedback is just that -- too much. Especially if you're new to SS. Andy's been a member for, what, four days? Now, I suppose he may well say, "No, it's fine, I appreciate the reading, the ideas, the valuable suggestions. I welcome criticism." But to Andy, I say,  trust your instincts.  Some of  what you are reading is show-off analysis. All of which raises the issue of feedback in general. What do individual writers want from feedback?

What? Are you saying there's too much feedback??? That's why most people post their scripts here. To get feedback...for free. It's invaluable! It's feedback like this that I learned from. I seriously don't get your comment...  

Quoted from Stumpzian God almighty. You'd think this script was "Finnegan's Wake," given the voluminous analysis/comments. This not a knock on "Piper Creek." I read enough ( 20 pages or so) to know Andy has talent. But, Jeeze, people are going on and on and on with their own personal opinions about this and that, page by page, pontificating. Lord! Too much feedback is just that -- too much. Especially if you're new to SS. Andy's been a member for, what, four days? Now, I suppose he may well say, "No, it's fine, I appreciate the reading, the ideas, the valuable suggestions. I welcome criticism." But to Andy, I say,  trust your instincts.  Some of  what you are reading is show-off analysis. All of which raises the issue of feedback in general. What do individual writers want from feedback? Henry

Henry...WTF?  What are you saying exactly and why in the world are you saying it?

What do you think SS is?  Andy's been doing exactly what every member should do...Quid Pro Quo.

Why are you irratated?  I honestly don't get it...

Hey Henry,

Thanks for the nice comment. I hope this next bit doesn't seem like I'm undercutting it.

To everyone in general, I both know what Henry is getting at and see his point of view, sure - AND also genuinely appreciate the level of comment. Inside each post so far has been at least one or two meaty points that clicked in my head and gave me a good insight.

In fact, I have just submitted a revision that reflects a lot of it. I have made over a hundred edits to the action to replace passive language, the 'is' abuse and take out all the 'we see' and delete redundant descriptors. (at time of writing, the site hasn't confirmed it's there yet)

What I think this does, is make a quicker, more dynamic read that allows the reader to 'get' the more stylistic parts. The tone of this movie when directed would be a little more absurdist/self aware, enough to 'hang a lampshade' on the preachy parts. The first draft I posted here dragged too much in the action writing and took away from experiencing the scenes properly.

Chris, your latest, second half, post makes good points on what works in what ways, and if they are compatible or not. Maybe in my head they work in a certain tone, but am I communicating that tone, and is it consistent.

It just so happens that I am the kind of person who will read that level of feedback, and while not compromising my idea, take some of it on board and make actual changes. It might be just me though.

I will post here separately to say when the new draft is confirmed as up. Although the main dialogue and scene content is the same. If anyone gives it a look, I'll read a second script of theirs, no problem.

Quoted from Heretic ^ My review of Finnegan's Wake: probably brilliant, definitely awful to read. I'll be sure to be similarly terse and bland should I ever come to review one of your scripts, Henry.

Thank you. Bland is not necessary. Just no 4,000-word essays.

Quoted from Grandma Bear What? Are you saying there's too much feedback??? That's why most people post their scripts here. To get feedback...for free. It's invaluable! It's feedback like this that I learned from. I seriously don't get your comment...

Of course I want feedback. I just don't want to read someone's dissertation.

Quoted from Dreamscale Henry...WTF?  What are you saying exactly and why in the world are you saying it? What do you think SS is?  Andy's been doing exactly what every member should do...Quid Pro Quo. Why are you irratated?  I honestly don't get it...

I think you've confused the names. Andy is the script writer, not the one giving feedback.

Yes, some feedback irritates me -- the self-important kind. The kind that shoots from the hip.

Ok just a post to say that the script linked in the first post is now a revised version.

There are shed loads of edits, mostly paring down and reworking the action lines, as discussed before. There are a few minor changes to some scene contents and dialogue too, just a few.

I'll take on some more Monday unproduced postings when they come out, but, if anyone who already commented takes a look at the revised script, that would be above and beyond and I'll definitely review a second script of theirs too.

Thanks.

I'll give it a look this week, Andy.

Thanks for reviewing Chupacabra, Andy.

I've read the first ten pages. I'll go a little more in depth when I can get around to it, so here's a Cliff Notes version of my full review:

The opening scene takes up ten pages. Halloween didn't do this. Friday the 13th didn't, either. I've been writing a slasher of my own, and the opening scene is over and done in three pages.

You've got a few orphan words -- single words taking up their own line.

Code She turns and looks at him. She smiles broadly, noticing his expression.

Some of the dialogue is on-the-nose. We can see that Sebastian is nervous; he doesn't need to blurt it out. Don't say that something is beautiful, show it.

The cutting back and forth between the scene and the killer's POV reads awkward on the page. But I've figured out a way to get around this in my own script.

Try something like:

Code Dani slips her skirt down and over her feet. She tosses it into the car, onto the seat. Sebastian starts to undo his shirt buttons nervously. A STALKER watches them from across the lot. The two students are behind the car. They continue to undress. SEBASTIAN stands awkwardly in his boxers. He winces and looks at his bare feet on the gravel.

I would cut down on parentheticals. That's telling the actors how to say a line; it's directing on the page.

You should turn off (MORE) and (CONT'D) in your screenwriting software, unless it's a shooting script.

In your slugs, I wouldn't keep writing that it's night, unless it spans multiple nights. Just write it as:

Code EXT. IN THE WOODS - NIGHT Sebastian and Dani do something. EXT. ALONGSIDE THE CREEK Sebastian and Dani do something else.

It's understood to still be night. Look at Chupacabra for example. Only write the time of day if it changes from day to night, or night to day. Or it takes place in more than one day/night.

I don't know about the gun. Remember what The Joker said.

Code JOKER Do you know why I use a knife, Detective? Guns are too quick. You don't get to savor all the little emotions. See, in their last moments, people show you who they really are...

It's pretty good, though, so far. Keep it up.

Quoted from ChrisBodily The cutting back and forth between the scene and the killer's POV reads awkward on the page. But I've figured out a way to get around this in my own script. Try something like: Code Dani slips her skirt down and over her feet. She tosses it into the car, onto the seat. Sebastian starts to undo his shirt buttons nervously. A STALKER watches them from across the lot. The two students are behind the car. They continue to undress. SEBASTIAN stands awkwardly in his boxers. He winces and looks at his bare feet on the gravel.

Chris, although you can definitely use character or subject mini Slugs, they do not and will not duplicate a P.O.V. shot.

A P.O.V. provides a unique "angle", coming from someone or something.

In your example, you infer to show the stalker watching them.

Quoted from ChrisBodily In your slugs, I wouldn't keep writing that it's night, unless it spans multiple nights. Just write it as: Code EXT. IN THE WOODS - NIGHT Sebastian and Dani do something. EXT. ALONGSIDE THE CREEK Sebastian and Dani do something else. It's understood to still be night. Look at Chupacabra for example. Only write the time of day if it changes from day to night, or night to day. Or it takes place in more than one day/night.

That's not correct.  If you are properly using mini Slugs (and few do), you would not repeat the time element, but if you're using full Slugs, which you really should, you'll need the time element.

It is not understood that if there's no time element, it's still the same time.  What is understood is that the writer made a mistake.

Quoted from Dreamscale That's not correct.  If you are properly using mini Slugs (and few do), you would not repeat the time element, but if you're using full Slugs, which you really should, you'll need the time element. It is not understood that if there's no time element, it's still the same time.  What is understood is that the writer made a mistake.

According to Dr Format...

Quoted Text QUESTION Someone told me that using CONTINUOUS in slug lines [scene headings] is wrong. Is that true? ANWSWER (sic) What that person may have meant is if it is already obvious that one scene follows continuously a previous scene without any jump in time, then writing CONTINUOUS is not necessary. For example: INT. HOUSE – DAY John opens the door and steps out. EXT. HOUSE John steps onto the porch. In the above situation, it is obvious that one scene follows the previous scene continuously. However, if that is not clear, then definitely use CONTINUOUS so that the reader doesn’t misunderstand. FOLLOW-UP QUESTION QUESTION How about DAY or NIGHT? ANWSWER (sic) The same logic applies, but don’t outsmart yourself and confuse a reader who may wonder for a given scene, is it day or night?

I guess you're fine, Andy. I would "tread lightly" on the DAY/NIGHT argument.



Edit to add:

Here's another answer to the dreaded "Do I have to use DAY/NIGHT on every slug line?" question:

http://messageboard.donedealpro.com/boards/showthread.php?t=1411

Quoted Text Sir Pink Feb. 23, 2004 Is it necessary to put a DAY or NIGHT on every slug line?? When is it absolutely necessary to use LATER or SAME?? TwoBrad Bradley Feb. 3, 2004 Rules for people who believe there are no rules: 87. It is not necessary to put a DAY or NIGHT on every slug line. 88. It is never absolutely necessary to use LATER or SAME. MrErdnase Feb. 8, 2004 If it is an establishing shot/scene of THAT NIGHT or THAT DAY. Then it is absolutely necessary. But if there is another scene in another place on THAT SAME DAY happening at ABOUT the same moment or just moments later, I guess a "time" slug won't be necessary. Just as long as the reader knows that its the same day, same hour, etc... Hope that wasn't too confusing.

From http://www.writingclasses.com/Products/PubsDetail_Excerpt.php/ExcerptID/700:

Quoted Text MISCELLANEOUS MISTAKES Every slug line needs a time reference -- DAY, NIGHT, DUSK, MORNING.

I always use NIGHT or DAY if it's a new slug.
Use LATER or whatever in a mini-slug -- because you have established the main setting, and of course, time won't have changed drastically., you're just saying it's a little bit later. I know people frown on LATER as a mini-slug, but I have no problems with it if you use it well enough and for good reason.

I always keep DAY or NIGHT as part of the main scene heading.
Have to agree with Dreamscale on this one.

Once you cut away from the established scene, you need to say it's either night or day.
I'd politely propose a small change to fix Chris's suggestion.

EXT. IN THE WOODS - NIGHT (main slug)

Sebastian and Dani do something. They discover a creek.

ALONGSIDE THE CREEK (mini-slug)

Sebastian and Dani do something else.

INT. DANI'S HOUSE - NIGHT (main slug)
Dani and Sebastian look at wonderful photographs of them killing chickens on the Creek.

The POV can be suggestive... I'd just go with a heading of where we are and someone watching, depending on scene.
SOMEONE (underlined, not caps) watches so and so, breathing heavy like Myers, having a great time with their hands... whatever, whether they rush towards them or whatnot, and you need to switch reactions, is simplified by this method. It saves page space and it's understandable.
You don't want POV shots coming out of every page.

I read the opening page and it reads pretty well.
I'm not keen on the lonely "Then", or the parenthetical that describes his facial reaction. Not needed, and it costs you space.
First thoughts are that it's written well, but you could condense the opening page.
Then they chat a bit for 4 or 5 pages... it gets a bit bland.
Good writing, for the most part, all the best.

Hey Guys,

Been reading the discussion on Slugs carefully, thanks all.

Scoob, thanks for checking it out. I actually like slowburn horror and slashers with a  certain structure to them. It's definitely a choice, based on examples I like, but not the jump every ten mins model.

Saying that, It may not be a good choice, or the only choice. I've been doing a lot of condensing already, based on feedback here - and it was all for the better. Just the fact that you thought it was competent, but were not inclined to read on, makes me take the feedback seriously. Thanks again.

Quoted from Scoob Have to agree with Dreamscale on this one.

What exactly are you disagreeing with, Scoob?

Quoted from Scoob The POV can be suggestive... I'd just go with a heading of where we are and someone watching, depending on scene. SOMEONE (underlined, not caps) watches so and so, breathing heavy like Myers, having a great time with their hands... whatever, whether they rush towards them or whatnot, and you need to switch reactions, is simplified by this method. It saves page space and it's understandable. You don't want POV shots coming out of every page.

If the writer wants to use a POV, then it needs to be labeled as a POV.  The only way a POV works, or is effective, is when that POV is different than a normal shot.

It's shown through  different colored lens, blurry, distorted vision, through the eyeholes of a mask or the like, through leaves in the woods, through fence slats, from under a bed, inside a closet, or the like, or from a completely different angle - high up like a T Rex looking down at its prey, or down low, like snake looking up at its prey.

POV's should be used sparingly or not at all, as it is a form of trying to direct the shoot.

One should not worry about the extra line required to format it properly - worry more about writing it correctly and if you should be using it at all.

Quoted from Dreamscale POV's should be used sparingly or not at all, as it is a form of trying to direct the shoot.

Agreed. It's okay to play with a pov if it advances the story somehow -- like a killer who's face you dont want to reveal immediately, but if the director doesn't want to use your pov then you are just wasting space in your story.

OK, Andy, as promised, I revisited your script.

The intro is written much better now.  That's for sure.  IMO, there are still numerous issues, and I'll address them below.

Please understand I don't hold back on feedback and I tell it like I see it.  It's meant to help you as a writer, not hurt your feelings or put you down.

The beauty of feedback and advice is that the writer gets to decide what to listen to and what to ignore.  As you've seen already on this very thread, you're going to get many differing opinions.  It's up to you to decide what's right for you, what makes sense, and what doesn't.

Please note I got to Page 49 this time around, and I really wanted to keep going and even finsih, but nothing was happening and very little did actually happen.  You're way overwriting, and IMO, the 49 pages I did read should probably run about 25-30 pages max.  This means that your 85 page script is really only about 45-50 pages worth of screen time - more on this later...

SPOILERS     SPOILERS     SPOILERS     SPOILERS     SPOILERS     SPOILERS

OK, so I'm going to break this down for you into 2 parts.

This post will be on the technical stuff.  I'll write a 2nd post later on story, plot, dialogue, characters, and action.

Let's jump into the technical stuff first, and understand I did not take page by page notes, so this will be general, but also very important, IMO.

As I said, your writing is much better.  You took out most of the passive writing, and the "we sees/w hears".  Good job.

You've got typos still and awkward writing, but that takes time to catch, but you will definitely want to give this another serious sweep.

You have a tendency to write lines without any verb at all - maybe a result of trying to pull out the "is" stuff.  Nothing really wrong with this, but understand that when the majority of your lines are complete sentences, the ones that aren't stick out.

You also have a tendency to describe a character's traits or clothing well after they have been intro'd, and that's a mistake.

A bigger mistake is that you continually describe in great detail what each and every character is wearing, and unless it comes into play, it's a waste, as it's not your job to dress your characters, and it really gets in the way of the read, especially based on the vast number of characters you have (more on that in the 2nd post).

You're going way overboard on your wrylies.  The reality is that it's very rare that you ever really need them, unless you need to establish a speech pattern, an accent, or an occasional "whisper" or raised voice.  Every time you do this, you're using a line (or in some cases, 2 even, which you should never do), and you've got a boatload here.  It looks like you're averaging about 1 per page, meaning you have a page and a half of nothing but wrylies, which is way, way too much.

POV's look better, but can still use some attention.  Understand that when you use a POV, you need to describe exactly "what we see" and "how it looks".  The stalker is wearing a sock and a football helmet, so the view needs to reflect this, and you need to describe it that way.

BIGGEST technical issue is the extreme overwriting going on here on every single page.  First of all, you have to understand and believe that 1 page equals 1 minute of film time, averaged out over the entire script.  It's not an exact science, but you'll be surprised how close it will be, when the writing is "correct".  Because of this, you cannot note every detail you want to.  You cannot write every single action that takes place.  There are numeruos "things" that every good reader will assume happens.  No one wants to read about characters opening and shutting doors, unless there's a reason for it.  Same with all other assumed actions that aren't important to the story or tone.

If you look closely at your pages, you'll see how "dense" they are.  Even action heavy scripts can be written in a way that they won't be so dense.

Don't go over 4 lines in any passage.  Just don't do it.  Aim for 2 lines on average, and you'll be golden.  Nothing wrong with a 3 or 4 line passage, but they should not be the norm.

Passages should be broken up based on a single shot, thought, or description.  Think about it this way - if you filmed this yourself with a single camera, each time you have to move the camera, you should begin a new passage.

Once you get this down, you'll notice 2 things - first, you'll have alot more white space on every page and the read will be easier.  Secondly, you'll notice that because you now have more blank lines, your script will become longer, which means you have to write more effeciently...tighter, and avoid unnecessary detail.

AS I said above, I stopped because so little had happened in 49 pages, which should be the first 49 minutes of the film.  It's because of the overwriting and it's always a killer when this is the case.

Part 2 coming up a little later, as I have a phone call coming up.

Hope this helps and makes sense.

Andy, just ran through the first 12 pages, interesting stuff.  The naked in the woods thing makes one feel very venerable.  The psycho has a lot going on with him, didn't know where you were going to take that but it freaked me out.  I will keep reading but just wanted to give you some feedback.

Part 2 to cover story, plot, dialogue, characters, and action.

As before, this will also include SPOILERS     SPOILERS     SPOILERS     SPOILERS

STORY

49 pages in and I honestly don't see a story here.

With the horror genre, story is often lacking or low on the totem pole, but even a simple slasher or survival horror has a story - and that usually involves a group or a person trying to survive from something.  Hell, this simple story even pertains to the  disaster genre, if you really think about it.

But, this isn't the case here at all, as far as I can see, and it's a big issue, IMO.

Since I did not finish the script, I can't and won't tell you there's no story here, but within the first 49 pages, that seems to be the case.

PLOT

Just to be clear, plot relates to the events that make up a story.

In the first 49 pages, very little has occurred.  Let me try and recap...

Two "college aged" kids get attacked near Piper Creek by a "hulking man" wearing an odd getup with multiple killing instruments.  It is assumed that both Sebastien and Dani get killed, but no kill is actually shown.

From here, we meet a HUGE cast of High School students who talk an awful lot, a pair of younger Goth kids, and various others.

Sebastien shows up at a local bar and acts like he knows nothing about Dani's disappearance.

The kids go skinny dipping back at Piper Creek, drink beer, smoke weed, and make out.

One of the main group, Jay, hits on the Goth girl, Zoe, and when she refutes his advances, he punches her and tries to rape her, so she kills him with her switchblade knife.

Everyone shows up at "THE PARTY HOUSE" and a big party goes on.

That, in a nutshell, is all that's gone on in the first 49 pages, and for me, that is a huge problem.

DIALOGUE

This is another big problem area.  Everyone talks way too much.  Just look through, page by page, and see all the huge dialogue blocks.  Peeps don't speak this way, especially friends who are for the most part, just hanging out.

Much of the dialogue is unrealistic as well, IMO.  It's also heavy handed in tone about feminism and anti feminism.

All the characters sound the same.  Now, I know that many groups of friends talk that way, which is why they're friends, but some need to stand out...they need to have personality that shows through what and how they speak.  I don't see that here.

CHARACTERS

First off, there are simply way too many characters here.  Absolutely impossible to keep track with who is who.  Part of the problem is as I mentined above - no one stands out as being unique.  Another part of the problem is that characters come and go, have nothing to add to the scene, and nothing really happens in each scene, anyway.

You give many of your characters first and last names, which I appreciate, as it shows you put real thought into this.  Some characters even have middle names given, and I think one character had four names!  Then, you have many characters with generic, silly names - dancing girl, bar guy, etc.

Although I could name many of your characters, I can't really picture any of them, nor do I "know" any of them.

Bottom line - Just way, WAY too many characters, many of which are completely unecessary and really muddle things up.

ACTION

Well, there's been very little action to speak of, but your writing details every little action possible.

IMO, you're sorely missing action, but part of that problem is the amount of characters in each scene, the amount of pages given to each scene, and my inability to follow the importance of what's going on, or why you've chosen to include it.

RANDOM THOUGHTS

When I gave you feedback on your intro, I noted that you had multiple opportunities to show what all "good" horror flicks need - nudity and violence.  Now that I've read to Page 49, I have to step back and tell you that IMO, you've gone way over the line in terms of nudity, sex, and even graphic dialogue.  Your intro now has both characters completely nude, running around for minutes of film time.  The skinny dipping scene has 10+ characters all completely nude for many minutes of film time.  IMO, that's just too much and over the top, although the graphic violence part is still very underwhelming.

Andy, I just don't see any story here.  The plot that makes up the story is also very weak so far.  Way too many characters that all seem like clones of each other, spout off insane amounts of dialogue that goes nowhere for me, nor does it give character to anyone.  Action is few and far between and the first 49 pages could very easily be condensed and tightened to 25 - 30.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, as that's not my intent.  I do hope this helps you in some ways.

Take care, bro, and best of luck with this.

Hey guys.

Firsty, Tim, saw your comment in there, thanks. I got snowed under at work in the back end of the week, will defo get you some feedback on yours.

Dreamscale. That's awesome that you read on and gave so much feedback again. It's very gentlemanly of you to keep apologizing in advance, thanks. But, as you saw in the second read, I can take it and will make serious changes based on feedback - especially the technical side.

I am 100% going through again, thinking about the stuff in the technical advice. On the genre/creative side though, when you listed the main plot points above, I was pretty happy. Like, it didn't sound like a bad thing to me, as a movie. There are plenty of modern horrors that go slow and have way less story, two of my favorites are Ti West's House of the Devil, and Trigger Man. Of course, he directs them himself and funds them too, so I guess he could write note form on toilet paper. As for me, I'm here to get better at the format so a big thanks for the second read and long posts. And as you know from the first round, I'm definitely taking it seriously.

Thanks again to everyone who posted so far.

Andy, I actually finished your script yesterday.

If you want to hear my final thoughts, let me know, but IMO, things go downhill once everyone reaches the party house, and the final reveal didn't work at all for me, mostly because this character was never even seen a single time up until he's demasked...or better put, dehelmeted.  

Let me know, bro.

Hey, Andy, you can forget what I said about POV shots.

According to StorySense, this is how you should do it:

Quoted Text When a shot originates from a particular character’s point-of-view, it’s customary to break it out with its own slug line. This slug line must state the character by name and refer to what the character sees. It’s not enough to simply write “SHAMUS’ P.O.V.,” for example (using periods because it’s an abbreviation), without also specifying in the slug line what Shamus sees:

The example they give is:

Code Shamus' [should be Shamus's] P.O.V. - THE KILLER emerges from the shadows, his blade glinting in the light of a street lamp. BACK TO SCENE Shamus turns back, quickens his pace.

In your case, you can leave it as:

Code STALKER’S P.O.V. - ACROSS THE LOT The two students are behind the car. They continue to undress. BACK TO SCENE Sebastian stands awkwardly in his boxers. He winces and looks at his bare feet on the gravel.

Or try this:

Code STALKER’S P.O.V. - SEBASTIAN AND DANI The two students are behind the car. A STALKER watches from across the lot. They continue to undress. BACK TO SCENE Sebastian stands awkwardly in his boxers. He winces and looks at his bare feet on the gravel.

Looks like you got it pretty much right.

As far as the DAY and NIGHT thing, forget what I said in my first post. You're doing it right.

Quoted from Dreamscale What exactly are you disagreeing with, Scoob?

I probably meant I disagree with Dreamscale. That would make more sense, haha. But, perhaps we share similar thoughts regarding the NIGHT and DAY issue, that it should be used constantly unless you are using a mini-slug.  You don't just change from NIGHT when it turns to DAY, or when DAY turns to NIGHT, you keep it constantly in the slug.

That's what I do, and have done, and it's served me fine.  I'm sure some do it another way, like Dr. Format, so whatever.  There is no absolute definitive rule, and that's great.  Some see it one way, some see it another.

A spec, or a script, is just a blueprint anyway... it's not the end of the journey, it's merely the beginning. Worry about the story first. Format is important, but only the basics. It's going to change... constantly.

Quoted from Dreamscale If the writer wants to use a POV, then it needs to be labeled as a POV.  The only way a POV works, or is effective, is when that POV is different than a normal shot. It's shown through  different colored lens, blurry, distorted vision, through the eyeholes of a mask or the like, through leaves in the woods, through fence slats, from under a bed, inside a closet, or the like, or from a completely different angle - high up like a T Rex looking down at its prey, or down low, like snake looking up at its prey. POV's should be used sparingly or not at all, as it is a form of trying to direct the shoot. One should not worry about the extra line required to format it properly - worry more about writing it correctly and if you should be using it at all.

Regarding POV... yeah, you should always label it as a POV. I was offering alternatives to using it. You can suggest a POV , that way you're not directing a shot. The director will make all the changes he/she wants to and will see it as a POV shot anyway, so half the time you don't even need to write it as one. They're not thick, they know what the scene entails and how they want it to work for them.

Good luck with the script,Andy.  I skim read a bit of it again earlier and then checked out your book sample. You do have the chops, and congrats on writing a novel.  I'm a big fan of House Of The Devil myself and appreciate the slow burn approach ( I'm a Friday the 13th/Halloween fan too, but I would never say horror films rely on just guts and sex -- that's an outdated cliche)  but I think you need to escalate your story.  There's not much going on here... in House Of The Devil, there is a constant unease and an unknown threat.  I think when you've got a ton of characters involved, it always make it harder to build a rapport, or feel for the hero. You need to get to the point a bit quicker, but by no means losing the story you feel you have. Good luck.

Thanks Chris and Scoob.

Scoob, points taken.

I was seriously thinking about what Dreamscale was saying about action lines and how the real test of them is how much screen time they translate into. I think it often comes down to that thing whereby if you're are proven and in the industry you can get away with all kinds of shit, but if not, you have to write the tightest script known to man to get past the first step.

I watched Blade Runner yesterday, and the opening scene could be written (in the most economical, non-directing way ever) as just some thing like : a car flies over post-industrial Los Angeles, it is both terrible and beautiful.

... and in the film that takes 3-4 minutes or more. For one line.

Of course, most modern movies would use like a second for the same thing. time to give better directors the big budgets.

thanks again for even more comments guys. Got it re: slug lines

Quoted from Andy Best ...I watched Blade Runner yesterday, and the opening scene could be written (in the most economical, non-directing way ever) as just some thing like : a car flies over post-industrial Los Angeles, it is both terrible and beautiful. ... and in the film that takes 3-4 minutes or more. For one line.

Good points you make here Andy. In the end you should be economical but not sacrifice all creativity - even in a spec. Likelihood is the original script will go through many changes, and then some, so take advice where you see fit, but then write it as you see fit.

I read your opening when it was first posted btw, and you appear to have tightened up a lot of the action.

I've been very busy lately and haven't read much here in quite some time. I decided to read something while having lunch and took a look at some of the current scripts. I have seen your Piper Creek around for a while now and to be honest, the title didn't do much for me. I'm a horror fan. I even like slashers, but the title for some reason made me think it was more of a drama. Regardless, I read the logline and thought, cool, a horror! I'll give the first few a read and see where it goes. I read the first eight. I might continue later, but these are my initial thoughts on your script.

I'm not going to worry too much about the technical stuff. I'm sure the others, especially Jeff have you covered there, but I have to mention INT. INSIDE SEBASTIAN'S CAR. Well, obviously it's inside his car. You already told us that when you wrote INT.

You could also look over how many time you use "slowly". Try to find better action verbs that describe the action. It's nothing really wrong with slowly, but after a while, it starts to stand out.

Okay, onto the story...

IMHO, this moves way too slow. By that, I don't mean you need to hurry up and have people killed. I'm referring to what's going on. There's just way too much idle chit chat going here. You also start this script off with two people talking in a car. This goes on for several minutes. Think about it. If you are going to watch a "movie" isn't that very visually boring? Not only are they chatting about uninteresting stuff, they are also doing uninteresting things. You can get away with boring chit chat if we're entertained by the visuals. You can also get away with people doing visually boring stuff like sitting in a car if you have some really really good dialogue going on, but you can't have uninteresting visuals and dialogue at the same time. That's when people start to reach for the remote.

Your characters. Dani was okay for the pages I read, but Sebastian didn't work for me at all. I couldn't stand him. I couldn't wait for the lurking figure with the P.O.V. to kill him.

IMHO, you need to work on the above mentioned things, set a better tone or mood for this if it's really a slasher. Other than the lurking figure, this could be a teen drama or some kind of teenage romance. Nothing here set the tone for a horror so far.  

Hope any of this can be helpful and I wish you the best with the rewrites.  

Pia  

Hi. Andy. I'll just jump right in.

Usually, a story will establish its genre early. While that’s done here, and we get the unaware and nude young adults being attacked. I’m more than half way through, and I haven’t seen much resembling that opening.  We follow, a young girl, Jessica, who has a real internal issue. She’s yet to come to grips with a girl being raped and the community in which it took place. How is this hindering her and more importantly her relationships? How will dealing with this killer get her through those issues?

I’m almost as interested in the story before this about the rape and backlash. Don’t get me wrong the potential for the aftermath is there, however, I just don’t see it or enough of it. The scene were the cops and clerk speak of it and how the look after Jessica as she walks out, I’m speaking of something akin to that maybe more subtle. Not so on nose as some reviewers have spoken of being too “preachy.” Create that tension while we are waiting for the kills. Is this something you were going for or not? I'm always interested in what the writer is attempting get me a better idea of how to help them. These are just my opinions, and if they help great. I’m always learning myself usually from reading and interacting with others.

BLB

Thanks for more comments everyone.

Hey BLB. It's interesting what you said about the backstory, because it's based on elements of two real life stories that I assume everyone in the English speaking world is familiar with: The Stuebenville Rape case which was put out on social media, partially covered up then exposed by hackers. And, the U Penn child abuse cover up and backlash against going after JoPa for covering it up. Also, and this only makes sense when you've read the whole story, Sebastian is partly based on Eliot Roger too.

The preachy parts are supposed to be more self-consciously punk or provocative, but that would live or die with the director.

If you're familiar with those cases, there's a lot going on in the script. But here's the thing ... not so long ago, me and some friends did a reading, informally. And both of them gave the feedback that they felt there was missing backstory or that they couldn't piece together what the cops were alluding too.

So I mentioned the cases, and they both - and these are well read 25-35 age Americans - had no idea about either case.

So I have been thinking about this a lot, but haven't addressed it in the script because I had to sort out the technical language first as I'm new to the format - I mean new to doing it full length and to a high see-in-public industry standard. and it brings me to another issue ... how much signposting do you do before it becomes dumb. Where's the line of treating your viewers like they know thing, especially big news things.

Even in mainstream movies. I remember Rodger Ebert's review of The Tall Guy, he gave it an almost unqualified high rating just on the basis that it had intelligent references and expected people to be smart on stuff like theatre. It's online.

What I mean is, all this feedback throws up great issues in my mind. It's really helping.

To that point, I should clarify that my previous point about action lines to screen time was not a rebuttal to Jeff's comments (dreamscale) but rather some thoughts provoked by him bringing it up.

Edit: addendum : if you've read the script, 'two lives were ruined' is an actual quote. It's what a CNN reporter controversially said when the two boys were convicted of rape in the Steubenville case. In fact the 'on-the-nose' conversation (in that exact case)  is made up of actual high profile media commentary during the case.

Hey, Andy it's good to hear your brain is still cooking on this. I remember the Penn State scandal, and this topic or issue is a big one. Which is why I mentioned deep potential here, abuse of power is a relatable subject, scandal sex or otherwise is relatable, if people weren't personal affected by one or the other they've definitely heard of it via news or word of mouth.

I completely understand where you are coming from as far as treating your audience as if they are active participants in understanding the story. Great outlook. This is why I'm a huge fan of subtext and context when it comes to story telling, especially setup in the beginning.

I guess I would of liked to have seen in more subtle ways of how other characters felt or how the community or school have changed or not changed and the subtle tension. It sounds as if the rape and what transpired was a huge deal. Did make campus news? Local news? National news? Then again there was another attempted rape and actual rape that took place, which I guess the commentary could be things haven't changed, which sucks but most likely true.

Also, this is a horror, more particularly a slasher, and we get the initial kill and I don't mind that another kills doesn't come for quite some time. However, I'd like something to chew on in between which I think is the effect of the case. I didn't mean to write so much, but I get excited sometimes. I do like it's a slasher which many say is misogynistic and you have this whole rape theme. Many, say rape is about power, cover-up is abuse of power. I'd love to those in power somewhere in this story. Anyway, I'm going to finish this baby up. I'm curious now.

Good luck, on your next go around. Oh, and there's documentary called "The Invisible War," worth checking out deals with similar theme.

BLB

BLB, will check out the documentary, and thanks for the extra thoughts ... giving me some more approaches to think about. The two guys I mentioned also said they felt some TV coverage or more background wouldn't be over the top and they like to see it. I heard it three times now, seems I should put something in and see.

Hi Andy,
    I'm up to page 35 and I'm kinda losing interest.  I've read some of the reviews and they are spot on.  Too much description.  Too much everything, except getting to the action.

In some ways, this almost reads like it's for teenage boys who go to movies to see T and A and violent murders.  Don't get me wrong, they do, but, sometimes, the good ones, they stick around longer by being different.

Is there any reason for all of them to get naked and mess around except to get the views engrossed?  

Some of the best slashers around, Friday the 13th, Halloween, even classics like April fools Day (I'm talking originals) all have reasons why stuff happens.  I'm up to page 35 and we aren't anywhere in terms of the plot, and the movie is already 1/3 over.  See the problem?

I know we all have different ways of writing, but, I might suggest making a story board or a page to write out the scenes.  Screenplay writing is very different then normal stories because Steven King can write a 600 page novel, NO ONE will ever write a 600 page screenplay.  If you plot out all of the major points and fill them in with the movie, you will see that it goes much faster and is much more streamlined.

Personally, for a slasher, I'd write 2 pages, the story breakdown by scene, then the personal arcs.  Look at Scream.  That was a totally different take on itself.  

We have to be clever how we get people to do things.  I know when I put myself in a story, I always ask myself would I EVER do this?  I might try to write an intelligent slasher one day.  

I'm gonna try to finish this off, but, far too much dialog and far too much "common slasher" tropes.  

I am really confused.  That is not good...
1.  More then half the deaths aren't realistic.  
2.  The actions of the kids aren't realistic either.

This is another pet peeve of mine.  WE all live in a post 9-11 world.  People don't act like this anymore.  They'd fight, it's okay if they lose, but, a house with that many people, all of which know the deal, kill or be killed, would find a thousand weapons to match him with.  

If the cops are in the front of the house, why are they headed towards the woody area?  WHY???

Why are the cops standing around?  Like I said, I'm so confused....

Oh, the time it would take Hulking Man to maneuver all those items and the weight of them isn't dealt with, especially physics wise.

Is everyone in the town psychotic??????

Seriously, they are having a pow-wow about who is more at fault????  Is this a slasher or a commentary??????

Sorry, but, there are a ton of faults.  I'd seriously go back and look at the message you want.  There are so many forced actions that don't make sense here.  I don't want to sound like an idiot or an azzwipe, but, everyone is psycho, everyone tries to rape the women, everyone is deplorable.  I know this is your second attempt at it, and the story has promise and is important in the world today.  

It CAN work, but, you need to tear it all apart, and build anew.  Make the dialog a zillion times more interesting, even comical.  

After a night of sleeping on it, here's my final review:

The story CAN work.  It's socially important.  As it is right now, it doesn't.  IF I was writing it, here is what I'd suggest:

1.  Change Sebastian's last name.  Make him the illegitimate son of the coach.  After all, women are only there to please men, right?

2.  One of the biggest issues is psychology.  They don't have any depth, they are wind-up dolls that spew the same stuff, different page.  That and the killer's physics of his never-ending barrage of weapons, all of which are heavy.

3.  Why the murder by Zoe?  Why isn't she freaking out?  14 year old that is almost raped and then murders her sister's "friend"???

4.  Show the town being split by the event.  Have graffiti on the walls.  Have notes being passed out.  Narrow the characters down and have a few really interesting and not a lot really "tropeish"

5.  Rework everything.  Nothing naturally happens.  

6.  I am sure that Seb knows that his dad is the killer.  Why does dad stop his son from being laid?  I think a golden moment there could be as the killer "forces" Dani to do whatever a supposedly terrified Seb wants her to do.  

The entire story has to make sense from start to finish, and then over a second time.  IF this was the heyday of the 80s this might be good enough, but, it's not.  People are different today.  The best character is Zoe and she's insane.  None of the other characters change.

Even in a slasher, people have to change and grow.  Even if that growth is negative.  

All the nudity is gonna be a problem too.  You have a lot of lower frontal nudity in the script.  How many slashers show lower female frontal?  How many show men fully naked?  Unless you are going for a XXX, I don't see how this is doable.  

You have a compelling story and a great scandal.  Let that play out, that culminates in a slasher.  Make it smart, witty, fun, perhaps do some research first.

Good luck

Dan

Thanks Daniel.

As I mentioned earlier, a lot of the dialogue, especially the commentary stuff, is direct quotes or slight rewrites from real reports and interviews made around the two scandals in real life. And yeah, it would have to be done by Troma or an indie group doing it unrated. Something like that.

I'm totally sincere when I say I'm really thankful you took the time to write three long posts about it. Whether the opinions are positive or negative does not change that. Thanks man.

I guess I'd say to you that cut it down, make sure it happens only once.  You kind of preach to us a lot in the script.

I'm sure you saw the first Friday the 13th.  It's at the end that you find out that her son died b/c the counselors were having sex.  That was her motivation.  Kill all the attractive people who'd rather have sex then do their job.  But, it's only spoken once.  And even today, 30 years later, it still is powerful.  Don't overdo it.  

Also, really try to figure out how to get the most out of your characters.  What makes them unique or likable?  What makes the audience connect with one or more?  Why do we care what happens to any of them?

I just put the first 2 episodes of my series up, I think I do a pretty decent job of making every character stand out by the end of episode 2.  

Best of luck to you!  Again, I love the idea.  It's the perfect reason to flip out.  

Dan

I have to say after the reading script, I felt that the eerie ambiance in the beginning was never retained. The characters are all well developed but not in a way that I could attach myself to anybody or care what happened to them in the end.
But in the end, I have to say it was enjoyable quick read.