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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Discussion of...    Getting to know you, getting to know all about you...  ›  Writing, easy? Moderators: Administrator
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Seth
Posted: June 12th, 2007, 11:37am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from tomson


I've actually read somewhere that writers as a group are some of the most depressed people and also have the highest incidence (?) of being bi-polar. Not saying you are Matt, but your post made me think of that.


I believe this to be true. Depressed people are, by definition, skilled in self-criticism. That said, they judge their own work harshly -- which, in the end, may help to bring a better product to the table.  

Seth




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Stranger Than Yesterday
Diplopia

And Sweetie XD


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mcornetto
Posted: June 12th, 2007, 4:18pm Report to Moderator
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I think depression is part of the creative cycle.
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Takeshi
Posted: June 12th, 2007, 4:33pm Report to Moderator
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David Lynch reckons that depression chokes creativity and that you don't need to suffer to write about suffering. I can come up with dark ideas when I'm down, but I usually have to be travelling well to develop them. But, yeah, I've battled with depression but having kids means I have to function everyday regardless of how I'm feeling, which has been a good skill to acquire. I think people can get a little self indulgent with depression sometimes and use it as an excuse to be irresponsible.
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greg
Posted: June 12th, 2007, 4:40pm Report to Moderator
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You see P-Head(sorry, it's funny), you can't rely on just two people to assess if your script is good or bad or what.  The fact is that you're never going to have a unanimous opinion on your work.  Never.  

The closest you can come to is a majority, but in the case you've described, you're just changing things because of one review.  Remember, a review is someone's opinion of your work.  That's all.  If they didn't like it, that's just their opinion.  It doesn't even mean that your script sucks.  Other people may love it.  But you can't go changing your script because one person said they liked this part and another person said they didn't.  You pretty much nailed it when you said:


Quoted Text
One problem I really must get over is trying to please everyone.


Exactly.  Not everyone likes Star Wars.  Not everyone likes steak.  Just try your best with what you're writing and know the audience that you have in mind.


Be excellent to each other
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James McClung
Posted: June 12th, 2007, 4:56pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from tomson
I've actually read somewhere that writers as a group are some of the most depressed people and also have the highest incidence (?) of being bi-polar.


I believe it. I can imagine how it would be depressing to actually have enough time to sit down and write an entire movie, struggle with writing it, struggle with getting it sold, then watch as a couple of boneheads tear your work to pieces (not that that happens all the time). I can see where the stress would come from.

Still, I don't believe you have to be depressed to write by any means nor do I believe that being depressed makes your writing any better or, even, edgier or more emotional. These are statistics and nothing else, as far as I'm concerned.


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mgj
Posted: June 12th, 2007, 9:42pm Report to Moderator
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I don't believe depression fosters creativity either - not directly anyway.  Depression is simply just a byproduct of being bi-polar.  I've never written, or accomplished much of anything, while feeling depressed; it's very counter-productive.

My best work comes when I'm angry or feel impassioned about something in my life.  These emotions seem to spur me on, to bring out my creative side.  




"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it." - Albert Einstein
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Seth
Posted: June 12th, 2007, 11:43pm Report to Moderator
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Below is an article concerning creativity & depression. It's, I think, interesting, especially as it relates to "self-reflection" and "rumination." How they arrived at the conclusion that major depressive disorders are 8 to 10 times more prevalent in writers and artists than the general population is a mystery. Still, for those interested, it's worth reading.

Quoted from American Psychological Association

Self-reflection may lead independently to creativity, depression

With major depressive disorder eight to 10 times more prevalent in writers and artists than in the general population, mental health researchers and practitioners have long linked creativity with a higher risk for depression.

However, a study in the June issue of Emotion (Vol. 5, No. 2) suggests that self-reflective rumination--a focus on the self and one's feelings--may explain artists' tendency toward depression, taking the blame off creativity itself.

"Depression is associated with inactivity, difficulty concentrating and lying in bed, which seems contrary to creativity," says study co-author Jutta Joormann, PhD, a Stanford University researcher. "But depressed people are more likely to ruminate, making depression act as an intermediary variable," given that rumination can also lead individuals to generate a large number of ideas and, in turn, artistic endeavors.

To reach this finding, Syracuse University psychology professor Paul Verhaeghen, PhD, Joormann and their colleagues instructed 99 undergraduates to complete questionnaires measuring current and past depressive symptoms, creative interests and self-reflective rumination. The students--who were culled from introductory psychology classes, fine arts classes, an arts and sciences honors program and a campus writers group--also participated in two creative behavior tests that measure fluency of imagination and originality.

The researchers found no direct link between depression and creativity. However, self-reflection was correlated with both an increased risk for depression and an interest in, and talent for, creative behavior.

Joormann suggests that people most likely to have the blues are also those most likely to express them.

However, Joormann notes that the study does not explain all of the variance of creative behavior since she and her colleagues used only a sample of college students.

In future studies, Verhaeghen and his colleagues aim to expand their subject pool beyond college students to established artists and nonartists. They may also induce subjects to self-ruminate. Future findings could even inform treatment for depression, possibly indicating clinicians could use imagination, role-playing and other such techniques to reduce people's self-reflective tendencies, Joormann says.

"Knowing that people with depression are more prone to self-rumination and creativity may be a good resource to use in therapy," she says.

--Z. STAMBOR

http://www.apa.org/monitor/jun05/selfreflection.html


Scripts

Stranger Than Yesterday
Diplopia

And Sweetie XD


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Takeshi
Posted: June 14th, 2007, 6:32pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from mgj
Depression is simply just a byproduct of being bi-polar.


There are many types of depression, ranging from mild to acute. The bi-polar type would be at the acute end of the scale. Bi-polar is the one where the person experiences highs that drive them into manic behaviour and then they hit lows and can feel suicidal.
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chism
Posted: June 14th, 2007, 7:25pm Report to Moderator
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Oh that kinda depression sucks. Sleeping 18 hours a day, not eating, not talking. Just lying there, doing nothing. It's incredibly counterproductive. Not good for business.


Matt.
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electricsatori
Posted: June 16th, 2007, 1:26pm Report to Moderator
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This is an interesting thread and I'd like to drop some knowledge. heh heh, listening to hip-hop all night while I wrote.

There is a field of psychology called Darwinian Epistemology. It deals with the emergence of genius and looks at all the factors that influence its development. Now, it does not look at I.Q. genius but the type of intelligence that actually engenders social change or reformation. Genius is simply measured by its social impact.

They've found that trauma is one of the factors that influence divergent, or creative type mentalities. And it normally occurs during certain stages in the developmental periods.

Once the person turns into one's self as a coping mechanism, which is all personality is, they develop an internal compass. With this 'turning inside' they examine the layers of consciousness and also look for explanations in the external world. This gives them the 'ideas' for artistic expression.

Truly, if you want to become artistically expressive, I believe you should seek inside yourself, trying to find that spark of psyche that illuminates the deep corners of your mind.

Most people see these deep recesses of the mind only in shadows, but true self-exploration ultimately illumines these dark wells of the spirit.
Sometimes depression is a key to these aspects of the mind, but mostly I've observed people get stuck there. Depression can keep you bound to the shallow waters of the consciousness, perpetually stuck in self-absorption.

If you are depressed there is a reason. Use your mind to explore the reasons for depression and it can lead to creativity. It's a fine line to walk with the artistic temperment, but can lead to beautiful self-revelation.

That being said, a good book about Madness and creativity is "Touched with Fire," it is an evaluation of manic-depressive illness and the artistic temperament.


DUST AND ROSES - (Western) 7 Pages

SUNDAY IS THE WORST DAY TO DIE OF THE PLAGUE - (Drama) 12 Pages

THE GHOST OF JOHN (Horror) 94 Pages
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mgj
Posted: June 16th, 2007, 1:55pm Report to Moderator
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Interesting stuff electricsatori.  I hope this doesn't mean you have to be depressed to be creative.  There does seem to be some link though.  I know Einstein had ADD, so did Chopin.  People with autism can be very smart at certain things but their field of knowledge is very narrow.  

Maybe having some sort of affliction, be it depression or whatever, forces the person to compensate in other areas - like a blind person whose other senses are heightened, a depressed person's creativity will be more fully developed if they can't expresss themselves outwordly.  This makes sense to me since the brain is like any other muscle in our body and can become stronger with exercise.


"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it." - Albert Einstein
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Death Monkey
Posted: June 16th, 2007, 5:01pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from mgj
Interesting stuff electricsatori.  I hope this doesn't mean you have to be depressed to be creative.  There does seem to be some link though.  I know Einstein had ADD, so did Chopin.  People with autism can be very smart at certain things but their field of knowledge is very narrow.  

Maybe having some sort of affliction, be it depression or whatever, forces the person to compensate in other areas - like a blind person whose other senses are heightened, a depressed person's creativity will be more fully developed if they can't expresss themselves outwordly.  This makes sense to me since the brain is like any other muscle in our body and can become stronger with exercise.


Actually a blind person's other senses aren't heightened, that's a myth perpetuated mostly by Hollywood (DareDevil, anyone?). Unfortunately I don't think such a compensation takes place, that a handicap is outweighed by an ability. It happens with savantism, but there are many autists out there with no Rain Main feats, and I imagine it's hard to live up to Hollywood's stereotypical image of autism.

But I think the notion of where and when 'genius' arises is an interesting one, and I certainly don't believe depression is intrinsically connected with creativity or talent. Thought it probably can be.




"The Flux capacitor. It's what makes time travel possible."

The Mute (short)
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electricsatori
Posted: June 17th, 2007, 3:55pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted Text
Actually a blind person's other senses aren't heightened, that's a myth perpetuated mostly by Hollywood


Stevie Wonder has a great story of when he was younger. His brothers used to leap on top of the roofs in his town. There was a gap, but it was clearable. Not wanting to be left out, Stevie would shout, listening for the echo to see how far it was.
If that isn't heightened, I don't know what is.

If you want proof, try this little experiment. I did it myself while working on a story.
1. Clear a weekend out of your schedule.
2. Blindfold yourself. Make sure you can't cheat and see. (Two eye-patches should be sufficient.)
3. Under no circumstances should you take the blindfold off.
4. Try going different places; bars, restaurants, places where sounds and smells are rich.
4. Report back to me and tell me that compensation does not occur when one of the senses is removed.

Besides, developmental adaptation to traumatic events in regards to the formation of personality is what I was talking about. Does trauma genius make? No, but it spreads the soil in which avoidance of suffering through reflection can occur. I agree with you that in psychological development no certainties exist.

However, strong correlations do. Starve a child or monkey of love and attention or basic human contact and they will be so disadvantaged intellectually/emotionally that they will be incapable of standard socialization. Proof? No. I admit that. Strong enough correlation to draw basic assumptions? Yes.  


Quoted Text
I certainly don't believe depression is intrinsically connected with creativity or talent. Thought it probably can be.


I will refer you back to my previous recommendation for your own research.


Quoted Text
...a good book about Madness and creativity is "Touched with Fire," it is an evaluation of manic-depressive illness and the artistic temperament.


Dean Keith Simonton's work is also good "Origins of Genius: Darwinian Perspectives on Creativity."

Howard Gardner, an eminent social scientist also examines the inner workings of genius in "Extraordinary Minds: Potraits of 4 Exceptional Individuals and an Examination of Our Own Extraordinariness."



DUST AND ROSES - (Western) 7 Pages

SUNDAY IS THE WORST DAY TO DIE OF THE PLAGUE - (Drama) 12 Pages

THE GHOST OF JOHN (Horror) 94 Pages
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Death Monkey
Posted: June 17th, 2007, 4:25pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from electricsatori


Stevie Wonder has a great story of when he was younger. His brothers used to leap on top of the roofs in his town. There was a gap, but it was clearable. Not wanting to be left out, Stevie would shout, listening for the echo to see how far it was.
If that isn't heightened, I don't know what is.


It isn't.

It's just relying on the senses you have. You could do that too if you trained.


Quoted Text
If you want proof, try this little experiment. I did it myself while working on a story.
1. Clear a weekend out of your schedule.
2. Blindfold yourself. Make sure you can't cheat and see. (Two eye-patches should be sufficient.)
3. Under no circumstances should you take the blindfold off.
4. Try going different places; bars, restaurants, places where sounds and smells are rich.
4. Report back to me and tell me that compensation does not occur when one of the senses is removed.


From a blind person:

http://www.eloquentinsights.com/blind.htm

The single most often repeated myth about blindness is the belief that we have a superior sense of hearing. Variations include: �People who are blind have higher attuned senses,� or �Blind people are more intuitive,� or �Blindness gives you a kind of sixth sense as a way to compensate.�

Let's clear this up right now. People who are blind do not have bionic hearing. This is a myth. There is no science that suggests people who have vision loss have better hearing than everyone else. This myth is repeated so often, everyone tends to believe that it must be true. It is not. Media portrayals of persons who are blind only seem to perpetuate this idea in our culture. Movies such as �Daredevil,� where the lead character becomes blind as the result of an accident and subsequently acquires superhuman attributes, has done little to shine the bright light of truth on these ridiculous misperceptions. Not only do movies like this do little to advance the cause of the disability community, they alter the way we are treated as a result.

Here is a specific example. Years ago, I was placed in the unfortunate position of having to complain to my apartment manager about my noisy neighbors in the building in which I lived. The apartment manager would do nothing, as he evidently believed the �heightened senses� myth. �Well, you have more sensitive hearing,� he explained, �so they just seem louder to you.�

When I meet someone with whom I've spoken in the recent past and inquire as to their latest health malady, they are astounded. �My goodness! You are so sensitive and in tune with other people. It must be because you're blind.� No, it's because I was actually listening to you when you told me you weren't feeling very well three weeks ago. I'm not distracted by your clothes, your car or your mannerisms; I'm paying attention to you instead. Unusual, yes. Extra sensory perception, no.



Quoted Text
Besides, developmental adaptation to traumatic events in regards to the formation of personality is what I was talking about. Does trauma genius make? No, but it spreads the soil in which avoidance of suffering through reflection can occur. I agree with you that in psychological development no certainties exist.

However, strong correlations do. Starve a child or monkey of love and attention or basic human contact and they will be so disadvantaged intellectually/emotionally that they will be incapable of standard socialization. Proof? No. I admit that. Strong enough correlation to draw basic assumptions? Yes.  



I don't understand your point here. Pretend I'm 4 and go again.



"The Flux capacitor. It's what makes time travel possible."

The Mute (short)
The Pool (short)
Tall Tales (short)
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electricsatori
Posted: June 18th, 2007, 10:17am Report to Moderator
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I don't understand your point here. Pretend I'm 4 and go again.


Personality forms as a response to the environment. Natural, or convergent, development occurs when a child is raised in a nurturing environment. However, when there is a traumatic event, specifically the loss of a parent or loved one, the child will not adapt in a normal way. Not only this, but their consciousness is now confronted by a startling new revelation - mortality.
The mind does not give up so easy though. It becomes creative dealing now with all of this anxiety. It seeks ways to supplant the knowledge of the inevitability of its death. Children seek out alternate coping mechanisms (reading, meditating, religion, art), any endeavor that draws them away from the anxiety and sorrow.
The effect on personality in instances like this is staggering. Too numerous to list.

I do not believe depression is beneficial for the arts. . .unless seen in a realistic light. Forms of depression not related to organic problems (dementia, bi-polar, et al. . .) are the mind informing us of an imbalance. Through introspection we can see the reasons for depression and ultimately overcome. We might need to change destructive cycles in our life, get out of a horrible work environment, or leave an abusive spouse. Whatever way we choose to seek an answer, whether it be through artistic expression or just quitting the job, a change needs to occur.

I'm really enjoying your views on this subject. I will concede I was talking about a different form of adaptation in regards to blindness. I was talking about compensation and not echolocation as 'Daredevil' employs. However, Stevie Wonder's use of echolocation, although interesting, is not abnormal. I agree that anybody could be trained to do the same.

Hold the presses though. . .

From current research with the visually impaired:


Quoted Text
For the visually impaired, information provided by sound is particularly important in recognizing their surroundings since they have difficulty in using visual information. That is, they mainly perceive attributes of various objects and spatial information around them utilizing sound. Therefore, the sound localization acuity of visually impaired people is estimated to be better than that of sighted people. Several studies of this topic have shown that the sound localization acuity of blind
adults is higher than that of sighted adults and adults with lateonset
blindness.

. . .4. Conclusion
The authors measured the sound localization blind and sighted adults in a horizontal plane, the acuity of the blind with that of the sighted. . .that the acuity of the blind is significantly superior than the sighted for both sound localization and distance perception at any azimuth of the horizontal plane.


http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ast/27/5/290/_pdf

Basically it states that the blind can determine the distance and location of a sound better than sighted people.


DUST AND ROSES - (Western) 7 Pages

SUNDAY IS THE WORST DAY TO DIE OF THE PLAGUE - (Drama) 12 Pages

THE GHOST OF JOHN (Horror) 94 Pages
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