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American Psycho: The Thread (currently 1364 views)
dresseme
Posted: June 5th, 2009, 3:54pm
Guest User
I didn't want to take up any more of Jeff's thread, so I thought I'd move our discussion. Not really sure where to move it, so I thought this would be a good place.
The original argument
Quoted from Andrew Allen
For example, 'American Psycho' is a perfect example of successfully placing a senseless and expendable scene - you remember Patrick killing the tramp? Take that scene out, and we do not lose anything at all, just one 'murder' - depending how you view that narrative, but that's another thread - yet it was entertaining.
My apologies for butting in, but I just wanted to point out that the murder of the tramp in AP is anything but senseless and expendable. AP is a biting satire and that scene highlights Patrick's attitudes towards the lower class.
That is all.
EDIT: That scene is especially poignant if you subscribe to the theory (which most do) that it was all in his head.
The rebuttal
Quoted from Andrew Allen
I would happily partake in an 'American Psycho' thread, however The point was - briefly - this movie is a "biting satire" that encompassed more than just his attitudes on the lower class. Anyway, I think his treatment of the prostitutes depicts this view better.
The main thrust centres around - highlighted especially during the '80s - this dichotomy of wealth and utter poorness in a societal context and not just Patrick's. PB's insanity is a manifestation and microcosm of society's - perceived - own insanity, IMO.
Anyway, I think that is a very well-put statement, however I would never say that the scene is expendable. The exchange between the two of them is very much needed, and like I said before, it really goes a long way in showing Patrick Bateman's attitude (even moreso than with the prostitutes). I guess I just fail to see, out of all the random acts of violence in the film, you chose that particular one. Why not the stray cat scene?
I just want to preface my contributions by saying - what a great film!
Absolutely exhausted from looking over 'Fade to White' right now, so will get back to you on this one shortly.
No problem, take your time.
I also think this is a fantastic film and always cite it as one of my "Top 10". I've dissected this film in a few classes, and I always am upset when people dismiss it as merely a "slasher film". I don't usually like to say "You didn't 'get it'", but in that instance, they didn't.
But anyway, I just think it's definitely a film worth discussing, so I look forward to talking more.
In the interest of source material, here's the 'script' copy - as taken from what's available on the lovely SS:
Quoted Text
EXT. STREET- EVENING
The financial district. The streets are eerily deserted.
Bateman stands at an ATM, enjoying the reassuring sound of $500 in fresh bills thudding from the machine. As he turns to leave, he notices someone across the street.
A HOMELESS MAN is lying in a doorway on top of an open grate, surrounded by bags of garbage and a shopping cart. A cardboard sign is attached to the front of the cart: I AM HOMELESS AND HUNGRY PLEASE HELP ME. A small, thin dog lies next to him.
He is black, dressed in a stained, torn, lime-green polyester pants suit with jeans worn over the pants.
BATEMAN (Offering his hand) Hello. Pat Bateman.
The Homeless Man stares at Bateman, struggling to sit up.
BATEMAN You want some money?. Some...food?
The Homeless Man nods and starts to cry. Bateman reaches into his pocket and pulls out a $I 0 bill, then changes his mind and holds out a $5 instead.
BATEMAN Is this what you need?
The Homeless Man nods, looks away, wipes his nose.
HOMELESS MAN I'm so hungry.
BATEMAN It's cold out, too, isn't it?
HOMELESS MAN I'm so hungry.
BATEMAN (Holding the bill just out of the man's reach) Why don't you get a job? If you're so hungry, why don't you get a job?
HOMELESS MAN (Shivering and sobbing) I lost my job...
BATEMAN Why? Were you drinking? Is that why you lost it? Insider trading? Just joking. No, really-were you drinking on the job?
HOMELESS MAN I was fired. I was laid off.
BATEMAN Gee, uh, that's too bad.
HOMELESS MAN I'm so hungry.
The dog starts to whimper.
BATEMAN Why don't you get another one? Why don't , you get another job?
HOMELESS MAN I'm not...
BATEMAN You're not what? Qualified for anything else?
HOMELESS MAN I'm hungry
BATEMAN I know that, I know that. Jeez, you're like a broken record. I'm trying to help you.
HOMELESS MAN I'm hungry.
BATEMAN Listen, do you think it's fair to take money from people who do have jobs? From people who do work?
HOMELESS MAN What am I gonna do?
BATEMAN Listen, what's your name?
HOMELESS MAN Al.
BATEMAN Speak up. Come on.
HOMELESS MAN Al.
BATEMAN Get a goddamn job, Al. You've got a negative attitude. That's what's stopping you. You've got to get your act together. I'll help you.
HOMELESS MAN You re so kind, mister. You're kind. You're a kind man. I can tell.
BATEMAN (Petting the dog) Shhhh...it's okay.
HOMELESS MAN (Grabbing Bateman's wrist) Please...I don know what to do. I'm so cold.
BATEMAN (Stroking his face, whispering) Do ,you know how bad you smell? The stench, my God.
HOMELESS MAN I can't...I can't find a shelter
BATEMAN You reek. You reek of...shit. Do you know that? (Shouting) Goddammit, Al-look at me and stop crying like some kind of faggot. Al...I'm sorry.
Bateman carefully puts the money back in his wallet.
BATEMAN It's just that...I don't know I don't have anything in common with you.
He opens his briefcase and pulls out a long thin knife with a serrated edge. He pushes up the sleeve of his jacket to protect it.
BATEMAN Do you know what a fucking loser ,you are?
HOMELESS MAN'S POV as Bateman lunges at him with the knife.
EXTREME WIDE SHOT of the street. Bateman's shadowed figure is hunched over the Homeless Man, stabbing him in the stomach. The dog barks wildly and Bateman stomps on it until it is silent.
LOW ANGLE shot of Bateman as he throws a quarter on the ground.
BATEMAN There's a quarter. Go buy some gum.
Bateman walks calmly into the empty caverns of Wall Street. Cars drift past, their headlights momentarily illuminating the body left twitching on the ground.
I also think it's noteworthy to point out that the prostitutes are actively out trying to make money while the homeless man isn't really doing much of anything; which, in turn, angers Patrick. I think it's important that the scene highlights the perceived apathy of certain parts of society from his point of view.
Hey guys, thought i'd dive in for a sec. I haven't seen the film but read the novel when it came out years ago. I looked upon it as a black comedy of sorts - Ellis deliberately made the violence full on to highlight , well, I dunno, his take on the state of Western society. the film was always going to to be hard to do because it either had to be done straight or comedic. Does any of that make sense?
PS- in the film, do they show the rat in the PVC pipe scene from the book? How about the exploding breasts?
I've both read the book and seen the film. I thought the book had something with it's social satire. I don't think they really caught this in the film, however, where much of the subject's subtlety was lost. If you haven't read the book then the movie would probably seem like not much more than an average slasher flick.
I've both read the book and seen the film. I thought the book had something with it's social satire. I don't think they really caught this in the film, however, where much of the subject's subtlety was lost. If you haven't read the book then the movie would probably seem like not much more than an average slasher flick.
Really? I saw the movie before reading the book and I caught a lot of the satire. Granted, I caught a lot more upon reading the book, but I think you can make a pretty healthy diagnosis from just the film alone.
Really? I saw the movie before reading the book and I caught a lot of the satire. Granted, I caught a lot more upon reading the book, but I think you can make a pretty healthy diagnosis from just the film alone.
It's hard to look at the film objectively if you've read the book first. I think that's because you really get inside the protags head in the book and you don't as much in the movie - so when you watch the film you add lots of information to what your are watching.
Ok, so, ultimately this was the crux of what I was getting at with this:
Quoted from Andrew Allen
For example, 'American Psycho' is a perfect example of successfully placing a senseless and expendable scene - you remember Patrick killing the tramp? Take that scene out, and we do not lose anything at all, just one 'murder' - depending how you view that narrative, but that's another thread - yet it was entertaining.
The example of the tramp was used due to Jeff's killing of a tramp. I was arguing that the killing was senseless in terms of a wider appreciation of actions. For example, if a paedophile murders a child, it may be a reasoned act within their own mind, but a wider societal appreciation would think it senseless. That's what I was suggesting with Patrick's killing the tramp - he was engaging in a senseless act.
Secondly, the notion that this scene is expendable - well, if you took the tramp scene out, would we lose the satire? Would we lose anything that ultimately changes the product? I don't think we do. Of course, that's looking at things 'on the surface', and it could be argued that Patrick loses depth as a consequence of omitting that scene, but I personally think it makes little difference.
Patrick is a character captured perfectly within the card scene, for me. That's where we see all the themes within this story tied up. Again, would the end product change much if omitted? Probably not, but this is a well layered movie, and I find it odd that people consider it a 'slasher' - however, that is based on my own perception of it.
Regards the book, and to think of it reboots - why does it matter? If a book is superior, why should a movie dilute your own enjoyment? If people consider the original to be superior to the reboot - why should that dilute one's own enjoyment of the original? I personally think the movie and the book differ in terms of their explorations of the core theme, but both remain relevant. Also, the people who harp on about how a book is superior to a movie (in general - not aimed at you, Cornetto), tend to forget that the inner machinations of a character do not always translate to the screen. That is to say, the material requires altering that changes the pacing, mood and landscape.
Secondly, the notion that this scene is expendable - well, if you took the tramp scene out, would we lose the satire? Would we lose anything that ultimately changes the product? I don't think we do. Of course, that's looking at things 'on the surface', and it could be argued that Patrick loses depth as a consequence of omitting that scene, but I personally think it makes little difference.
I think it's also noteworthy to point out that it's the very first act of violence in the film, and the way it's crafted, you're not really sure what he's going to do. Sure, there are scenes that peg the satire a little better (the card scene is great), but I guess I still can't see taking it out. Both the filmmaker and Ellis put that scene in for a reason.
American Psycho wasn’t that great IMO. It is so over the top in everything it depicts (I know that’s the basic premise in both the book and movie), that it just can’t be taken seriously by me.
Sure there are some great scenes, kills, and lines, but when it’s all said and done, it just doesn’t really do it for me. The ending is a real letdown also. In his head? Actually took place? Does it matter? If it is truly in his head, then it’s extremely disappointing…the old, it was all a dream thing, which I despise.
I understand that this is a satire…a black comedy for the most part, but it definitely does have a slasher/horror type feeling to it as well. For me, the 2 just don’t go hand in hand, and I think that’s the biggest problem I have with it. Do we laugh or scream...or both?
The ending is a real letdown also. In his head? Actually took place? Does it matter? If it is truly in his head, then it’s extremely disappointing…the old, it was all a dream thing, which I despise.
If it wasn't in his head, the series of events that take place in the film flat-out wouldn't make sense.
Quoted from Dreamscale
I understand that this is a satire…a black comedy for the most part, but it definitely does have a slasher/horror type feeling to it as well.
I've never felt that way, especially because the director made it so that every kill happens off-screen.
It can seem a bit over-the-top at times, but it's usually doing that to make a point. If you dissect the film carefully, there's a lot of very subtle things being done there. I think it's very easy to look at this film on the surface level though.
I hear ya, Dressel. I really do. I've seen the film at least 5 times, probably more.
For me, it was bludgeoning with all the pulp fiction. Like every scene had so many references to 80's sub culture, pop culture, whatever culture. I can see where it's defintely a love/hate kind of film. It's very cold and cold blooded in just about everything it represents...almost sad, IMO.
When I find it playing on a movie channel, I'll watch it to this day, cause again, there are some great scenes and the like, and I actually find it very funny in places. I just think like alot of things (films, etc.) people tend to read too much into what it really is. They try to make it so much more than it really is. At least with this movie, there are reasons for that, unlike so many other flicks that get the same treatment.
For me, it was bludgeoning with all the pulp fiction. Like every scene had so many references to 80's sub culture, pop culture, whatever culture.
That's mainly how the book was. Like, how there's a single scene where Bateman talks about Phil Collins? That was a whole rambling chapter in the book. It was great.
Quoted from Dreamscale
I just think like alot of things (films, etc.) people tend to read too much into what it really is. They try to make it so much more than it really is. At least with this movie, there are reasons for that, unlike so many other flicks that get the same treatment.
Oh believe me, I know. I'm not usually one to do that. I have a friend who does, and his most recent over-analyzing was "Step Brothers". Ugh.
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