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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Reviews    Movie, Television and DVD Reviews  ›  Avatar Moderators: Nixon
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leitskev
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 4:40pm Report to Moderator
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Jeff, my film knowledge is vastly less than most people in this discussion. But certainly thematic content, symbolic messaging, and moral debate are a common part of many films. They are intended to provoke thought, and yes, discussion. Thus this thread.

Also keep in mind it's not just a matter of thumbs up or down. I liked a lot of Avatar. It's entertaining and has some cool concepts. I merely point out I am tired of the drone like political messaging in these movies, which I think weakens them. This seems like the appropriate place to mention that kind of thing.
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Dreamscale
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 5:20pm Report to Moderator
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Yes, rick, Kev, and James, it's more than fine to voice your opinion about anything, anywhere.  I'm actually all for it.

But, it always does strike a chord with me when people go off on perceived ideas within something, that, usually, comes from somewhere else.

Here's a bad analogy...

So, somewhere along the line, someone came up with the notion about horror movies always killing off the sluts, perverts, and deviants, but letting the virgin survive, proving sex is bad and when you're bad, you're gonna die.  You really think there's any reality to that?

How about this spin on it...

Horror movies often involve killing and teens/20 somethings.  Teens and 20 somethings like to and get to fuck alot, based solely on their age and disposition in life...they do perverted things because they can.  They're slutty cause they wanna be and can be.  Any and all movies need a protag, and most prefer it to be a liable character, thus, in a world populated by sexed up, perverted characters, it makes sense to have your survivor be more likable...and probably have less onscreen sex.

Again, a bad example...but my point being, who gives a fuck?  Horror movies are not preaching about the evils of having pre-marital sex.  They're about delivering a good thrill ride, filled with jolts and scares, and lots of violence.

No need to read anything into them at all.
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leitskev
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 5:30pm Report to Moderator
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Jeff, Avatar is clearly meant as political commentary. It's not subtle and doesn't require any reading into. It's very transparent. We can agree with the commentary or not, but it's there.

I do fully agree with you that it's a mistake to over analyze movies, and a lot of people do that. Groundhog Day is probably a good example of that. People read all kinds of stuff into that movie.

But there are movies that do have a political message. Sometimes the message is critical to the movie, like Last Samurai, sometimes it's just thrown in there. I would prefer that political messages be kept out of movies. To the extent that political messages involve a world view, I would like to see more balance.
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Dreamscale
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 5:41pm Report to Moderator
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Political commentary or not, there are tons and tons of movies that have this same "message", and IMO, it shouldn't sway one's opinion because of it.

If that then means it's cliche, or old news, fine...let it be.  It is what it is, and it's never the reason why a movie works or doesn't work.
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 6:07pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
Yes, rick, Kev, and James, it's more than fine to voice your opinion about anything, anywhere.  I'm actually all for it.

But, it always does strike a chord with me when people go off on perceived ideas within something, that, usually, comes from somewhere else.

Here's a bad analogy...

So, somewhere along the line, someone came up with the notion about horror movies always killing off the sluts, perverts, and deviants, but letting the virgin survive, proving sex is bad and when you're bad, you're gonna die.  You really think there's any reality to that?

How about this spin on it...

Horror movies often involve killing and teens/20 somethings.  Teens and 20 somethings like to and get to fuck alot, based solely on their age and disposition in life...they do perverted things because they can.  They're slutty cause they wanna be and can be.  Any and all movies need a protag, and most prefer it to be a liable character, thus, in a world populated by sexed up, perverted characters, it makes sense to have your survivor be more likable...and probably have less onscreen sex.

Again, a bad example...but my point being, who gives a fuck?  Horror movies are not preaching about the evils of having pre-marital sex.  They're about delivering a good thrill ride, filled with jolts and scares, and lots of violence.

No need to read anything into them at all.


Actually, there's quite a lot of psychological studies about horror films that show why people like them.

What they show is similar to what you're saying, but not quite.

The reality is that people enjoy watching characters who have traits they don't like, get hurt.

So the Christian enjoys watching the blasphemous heathen burn in flames. The strict atheist gets a secret kick out of watching the sanctimonious God-botherer get torn limb from limb.

The reason horror films have such young characters in general is because the demographic they aim for is 16-25 males. Hence what they call T & A (tits and ass etc). They know their audience.

The sex thing is not so much to do with morality, it's to do with what I just said above.

Yes, young people go out and drink and have sex....but not the demographic that watches horror films religiously. I'm a big horror fan as well...but they are aimed at the geeks...the guys who are staying in with their other mates on a weekend watching a DVD and are not out at a party.

That's why the slut gets killed off so often, and that's why the jock does as well...because the audience the studioes aim for likes to watch the hot girl that ignores him at school get chopped up and likes to get a vicarious revenge on the jock.

Each to their own and all that...if you are only looking for dumb entertainment, then that's fine. But you do the history of cinema and even horror films  a massive disservice when you claim they have no relevance other than to provide thrills...some of the films have played a significant role in the progression of culture.
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 6:25pm Report to Moderator
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As a side note...I think your attitude to horror is essentially what's killed it as a going concern in the West. Not having a go here.

The studioes make the same story over and over again...group of young people go somehwere, get killed by a character with a gimmick, for no reason.

That's the standard Western horror and the genre is stagnant and all but dead commercially. Hardly any distributor will touch it now. Lionsgate is more interested in Sci-Fi from what I hear, and they were about the last doing it.

Asian horror is the only real outlet for qualtiy horror because they tell interesting stories that happen to be horrific or dark. Western horror is totally penned in by demographics.

Even Horror Literature has died. Except for a handful of zombie novels in the past year, the well is dry. Dark Fantasy (Twilight etc) is the only genre of "horror" that is thriving.

What horror in the West needs more than ever is a return to story-telling and a deeper connection to the audiences by creating stronger themes, characters and meaning.
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Dreamscale
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 6:38pm Report to Moderator
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OK, Rick, some films may have played a part in culture or whatever else you're mentioning.  That's true, and that's fine.

BUT...

Most don't, most don't care to, and none NEED to.

The comments about writing a script aimed at a certain demographic makes sense, of course, but it's also not the brightest way to go about things, in reality, as it alienates the majority of all "other" demographics.

Writing stupid characters, doing stupid things is not the reason why horror movies (or any movies, for that matter) are successful, are loved, or go down in infamy as classics.

I too love horror movies, but the vast majority of them are terrible, and even laughable...in a bad way.

Films I love to offer up in such discussions (as you know) are Hostel and Wolf Creek. There may be a few examples of characters doing dumb, or unrealistic things, but neither plays into what you brought up above.  Both are great examples of how one can write something that's different, unique to a degree, even, be played completely for reals, not follow tried and true structure or plot, and work on every level, including critical and financial success.

Sure, you can say there are messages within Hostel, like being out of your comfort zone is dangerous, having wild unabandoned sex leads to demise...whatever.  But those themes or symbols have absolutely nothing to do with why the movie worked so well, and therefor, doesn't need to be even discussed, IMO.

It seems like the majority of the people who bring these things up are not in the "masses", cause the masses don't think like this.  The masses want to be entertained.  The masses want to escape their daily grind...they want to see things they don't get to see in reality (from a safe distance, as well).  The masses don't even know a thing or 2 about solid structure or screenwriting.  Hell, they don't even see the elephant sized plot holes and ridiculous situations...and they don't care.

Who cares about social commentary?  Surely, not I.  Remember, I really liked 2012, and I actually watched it again over the weekend and, lo and behold, there were once again numerous scenes and situations that had me on the verge of tears because they were well done and even though I knew the outcome, they were powerful IMO.

Crazy?  Maybe, I don't know anymore.  I know what works for me and I know exactly why.  Same with what doesn't and why it doesn't.

Guess that's why I stand on my own mountain and have no problem with it.
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Dreamscale
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 6:41pm Report to Moderator
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No, Rick, I strongly disagree with you, especially about my attitude killing the genre.

What kills it is exactly what I hate about the genre...stupid, poor, juvenile writing, about stupid, unrealistic characters, doing stupid, unrealistic things.
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leitskev
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 7:15pm Report to Moderator
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I am interested to hear you say that Rick, about horror. I am not at all a student of film, but I mentioned in a post a couple weeks ago that I thought horror fans were killing horror, a bit of an irony, actually double irony. The insistence on non stop edge of your seat tension and an abundance of blood and killing limits what can be done. I'm not saying tension is not important, I'm saying you need to build plot and story too, and you have to sacrifice just a little bit of tension to do that.

Jeff, tell me if I am wrong, but I suspect what you prefer is maybe more action/suspense with elements of terror. I think the problem here is once again about defining what a genre is. Horror clearly encompasses a hugely wide range of story. And I agree, Jeff, those kinds of stories are much better off without any deeper messages, and if there are any, they should really be secondary to the story.

But I also really enjoy the movies, when they're done well, that you can watch more than once an get something different each time out of it. Where there are layers to dig under and sift through. Sometimes a great movie, like a great painting, might even be open to different interpretations than even the writer/director intended. That only adds to its value as art. And film is entertainment, but also art.
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Dreamscale
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 7:25pm Report to Moderator
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No, Kev, I prefer horror to any other genre.  Action/suspense/thriller with elements of terror or horror are fine, but for me, straight out horror is always king...and always will be.
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 7:42pm Report to Moderator
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I wouldn't say it's horror fans who are particularly killing horror. It's more that the studios insist on a certain definition of horror that their market research shows to work.

It's always a chicken and egg situation though: Studios aim for a 16-35 year old demographic in general terms because stats show that's the age that goes to the cinema...but is that just because they don't make films that cater for older people?

My mum is 64 and she and her sister and a few friends like to go to the cinema but rarely have anything to go and watch. They'll catch the King's Speech, that Abba thing with Pierce Brosnan etc but often they'll look in the paper and they have no option.

It's the same with horror. Past films have succeeded with the teenagers getting wiped out, so they won't deal with films that DON'T have a group of teenagers in them.

Like you say...you end up with one film being made the whole time. They even remake the same films, based on the same story-line from the past....black christmas, Friday the 13th, Halloween etc. Young people getting chopped up, for no discernible reason.

You can make a horror film about anything. Unfortunately the studios seem to refuse to take a chance...and this even filters down to independent filmmakrs who just follow suit and make the same film again and again. The whole genre has ground to a creative halt in the West.

This is getting well off topic though. If you're interesetd in discussing horror, you should probably dig up an old thread from somewhere.

Rick.
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Dreamscale
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 8:12pm Report to Moderator
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Yeah, we're way off topic here, but Rick, as you correctly said here finally, it's the studios/film makers/producers who have and are killing the genre.

There's no excuse for it, IMO.  And I'll be damned if I don't keep fighting.

One of these days...one of these days...
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dogglebe
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 8:22pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dressel
Seriously, how is this screenwriting board not tearing this film apart?


Some of us refused to see this shit.


Phil

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leitskev
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 8:35pm Report to Moderator
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My last on this, since it is straying. I don't think it's just a matter of the studios killing it, and the fact that indi's do the same thing is evidence. The real horror people think that horror can only be one way. And that way inhibits plot, which scares off other potential viewers. Even the excessive gore, which is expected and even demanded by the horror freaks, tends to turn off the larger audience. And like Rick said, the senseless, motiveless killings. All this turns most people off. But it IS what the horror people want. That's why the indi's produce it.

Before the rise of slash, horror was more suitable for wider audiences. With slash it no longer is. And make no mistake, it seems that's what the horror people want. Even in my time here, it seems that about 90% of the horror people want slash, really don't even care about plot.

I will steer this back to Avatar: the politics of movies like Avatar is the one thing about Hollywood that has nothing to do with market. Unless you consider the need to impress critics, which also are all extremely Left wing. If Hollywood was focused on market when it comes to these political slants, they would recognize that they are annoying more than half the potential market. It's the one area Hollywood ignores wise marketing.
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 8:35pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from dogglebe


Some of us refused to see this shit.


Phil



It was the greatest cinematic experience in history. NQAT.
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