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wonkavite
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 8:37pm Report to Moderator
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Wow - looks like I inadvertently revitalized a simmering debate here!  (Can't say I'm sorry - it's pretty interesting.)

But figured I'd respond to a few of the more recent comments in the thread:


Quoted from Dreamscale

First of all, I just can't see how anyone with any kind of intelligence and movie industry knowledge and insight could say that this film was "terrible", or any words like that.  I literally can't see how it's possible.  


Sorry, DS - but I honestly do feel that Avatar was terrible.  It was beautiful.  I'll give it that - and I'm a huge fan of well done FX.  A few caveats:

1) I *definitely* didn't go into it wanting to hate it.  

2) Despite the fact that I have issues with the political bent of the film, that's not my reason for hating it either.  I'm perfectly capable of loving a well done film that I don't idealogically agree with

3) It's not that I don't like thrill-rides, either.  I'm a fan of Independence Day for it's pure entertainment value - despite the gaping plot holes.

For me, the issue with Avatar is that there wasn't a single character in it with a bit of depth or originality.  The fact that I knew absolutely every single move that each character would make before they made it.  The fact that I knew the end of the movie about 5 minutes into it.  For me, the damned thing had no redeeming value at all, for those reasons.  And the fact it went on so very, very long made it even worse.

Hey - same reason that I'm no fan of the majority of horror films out there, either (to touch on another theme in this thread.)  

Sure, movies are supposed to be entertaining.  But if a film's concept of entertainment is to rehash a bunch of characters and stereotypes and plots that I've seen 5 million times before, it's a waste of my money.  And worse - a waste of 2 hours of my life.  (Or more, in the case of Avatar.)

And frankly - the fact that stuff like that is made (or remade) is a severe insult to those scripts out there that *do* have something original or different to offer...but never get seen, due to the studios not wanting to take a chance.  (Sad, because many such scripts would be money makers, if allowed to see the light of day and find their own fan base.)  

IMHO (not to fan the flames or anything.  Okay, maybe a little...)
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Dreamscale
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 8:44pm Report to Moderator
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OK, Wonka...that's all fine and cool...and I understand that we all have our own opinions and no opinions are incorrect.

BUT...

I don't understand how something can be "beautiful" but terrible in the same breath.  The 2 don't go hand in hand with me at all.  
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 8:45pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from leitskev
My last on this, since it is straying. I don't think it's just a matter of the studios killing it, and the fact that indi's do the same thing is evidence. The real horror people think that horror can only be one way. And that way inhibits plot, which scares off other potential viewers. Even the excessive gore, which is expected and even demanded by the horror freaks, tends to turn off the larger audience. And like Rick said, the senseless, motiveless killings. All this turns most people off. But it IS what the horror people want. That's why the indi's produce it.

Before the rise of slash, horror was more suitable for wider audiences. With slash it no longer is. And make no mistake, it seems that's what the horror people want. Even in my time here, it seems that about 90% of the horror people want slash, really don't even care about plot.

I will steer this back to Avatar: the politics of movies like Avatar is the one thing about Hollywood that has nothing to do with market. Unless you consider the need to impress critics, which also are all extremely Left wing. If Hollywood was focused on market when it comes to these political slants, they would recognize that they are annoying more than half the potential market. It's the one area Hollywood ignores wise marketing.


You can't avoid politics in films though, as I said before. If you ignore it totally then it's just a film that supports the present system.

Plus...how much did Avatar take in the US and how much did it take worldwide? Us politics is all right-wing, but there is more variety in the rest of the world.

http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=avatar.htm

It made over 2B overseas....72% of the takings.

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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 8:47pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from wonkavite
Wow - looks like I inadvertently revitalized a simmering debate here!  (Can't say I'm sorry - it's pretty interesting.)

But figured I'd respond to a few of the more recent comments in the thread:



Sorry, DS - but I honestly do feel that Avatar was terrible.  It was beautiful.  I'll give it that - and I'm a huge fan of well done FX.  A few caveats:

1) I *definitely* didn't go into it wanting to hate it.  

2) Despite the fact that I have issues with the political bent of the film, that's not my reason for hating it either.  I'm perfectly capable of loving a well done film that I don't idealogically agree with

3) It's not that I don't like thrill-rides, either.  I'm a fan of Independence Day for it's pure entertainment value - despite the gaping plot holes.

For me, the issue with Avatar is that there wasn't a single character in it with a bit of depth or originality.  The fact that I knew absolutely every single move that each character would make before they made it.  The fact that I knew the end of the movie about 5 minutes into it.  For me, the damned thing had no redeeming value at all, for those reasons.  And the fact it went on so very, very long made it even worse.

Hey - same reason that I'm no fan of the majority of horror films out there, either (to touch on another theme in this thread.)  

Sure, movies are supposed to be entertaining.  But if a film's concept of entertainment is to rehash a bunch of characters and stereotypes and plots that I've seen 5 million times before, it's a waste of my money.  And worse - a waste of 2 hours of my life.  (Or more, in the case of Avatar.)

And frankly - the fact that stuff like that is made (or remade) is a severe insult to those scripts out there that *do* have something original or different to offer...but never get seen, due to the studios not wanting to take a chance.  (Sad, because many such scripts would be money makers, if allowed to see the light of day and find their own fan base.)  

IMHO (not to fan the flames or anything.  Okay, maybe a little...)


You should have seen it in 3D.

You wouldn't care about the story when you've walked on Pandora. Could have spoent a month in the cinema just in the forest.

Most incredible film ever made.
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Dreamscale
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 8:48pm Report to Moderator
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Absolutely love boxofficemojo.com!!!!!  Good link, Rick.  I actually didn't realize just how much it did take in WW...WOW!!!!  Just, WOW!!!!!  
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Elmer
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 9:00pm Report to Moderator
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I just think the political aspect of the film is hilarious. From the very roots of the music industry, everything thrives on capitalism. Films are made to capitalize on what's popular in the market, and in turn, people buy into privately owned theater chains and open their own privately owned local theater that in turn creates jobs for locals. Because of this, companies (known as studios) are able to expand, invest, and ultimately more films which create more healthy economic growth in multiple industries (toys, video games, cinemas, food, clothes, etc) which in turn creates even MORE economic growth by providing thousands if not millions of jobs to people who otherwise would be out of work and out of homes. But because there is an executive somewhere that makes more than mister man who sweeps at the movie theater, capitalism is super evil.

Not to mention, I seriously doubt they used to hybrid energy to supply the MASSIVE amounts of power needed for multiple years in a row in order to create this film. And I also doubt they used hybrid airplanes to deliver the prints and merchandise to theaters and stores. And I seriously doubt they've torn down their houses in order to decrease their impact on nature.

It doesn't matter whether a person agrees or disagrees with the political message, the incredible amount of hypocrisy makes it all a joke.

And God knows they're not going to "capitalize" on the success of the first film and make more of them. Seriously, they got their message out. Do they really want to use that much more energy to power their massive computers and facilities and cause that much more of a negative environmental impact again??

That said...I enjoyed the film because it looks really cool and has an awesome soundtrack.
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Elmer
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 9:03pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Scar Tissue Films
how much did Avatar take in the US and how much did it take worldwide? Us politics is all right-wing, but there is more variety in the rest of the world.


When Avatar was released, the political climate of the nation was decidedly liberal. 749,766,139 is a lot for a single nation to pour into a film. 749,766,139 for the U.S. alone compares to 2 billion for every other nation in the world combined. I'd say it's safe to say politics didn't sway too much when it came to its domestic income.
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 9:09pm Report to Moderator
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You don't need to completley overthrow capitalism to change the way we live.

We could protect our rainforests better. Have massive bio-diversity projetcs. Invest in clean energy. Reduce our reliance on fossil fuels. Put our valuable resources into scientific projects that will benefit all of mankind instead of a handful of people worldwide. Move towards carbon zero housing. Stop destroying the natural habitats of our fellow creatures.

There's much better ways to live. We already have the technology.
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 9:13pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Elmer


When Avatar was released, the political climate of the nation was decidedly liberal. 749,766,139 is a lot for a single nation to pour into a film. 749,766,139 for the U.S. alone compares to 2 billion for every other nation in the world combined. I'd say it's safe to say politics didn't sway too much when it came to its domestic income.


Liberal in US terms is still right of centre in world terms.

But I agree...I don't think politics really effects films or art in general.

As for the money...of course the US is the main provider. Other than Europe, no-one else pays to watch it. The Chinese just pirate the film. A one DVD nation as the saying goes...someone buys a single copy and duplicates it for everyone else.
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Elmer
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 9:14pm Report to Moderator
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I know we don't need to completely overthrow it, but the film demonizes the heck out of capitalism and places the blame for all earthly problems directly onto the shoulders of white Americans. Also, I wonder what % of James Cameron's large salary has been invested...

My point isn't whether or not the environment is important, it's just that despite the messages in the film, everything about the way the film was made, the way the industry works, and the way their money is spent, is completely hypocritical.
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Dreamscale
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 9:14pm Report to Moderator
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Rick, you beat me to it, and I agree with you 100%.

I may not live the perfect life, and I'm you're not going to see me driving a SmartCar, but I want I am all for saving animals and ecosystems, and I realize things could and should be different.

Hopefully, we get the message soon and do what has to be done...just let me keep driving my comfy BIG SUV!!!!
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wonkavite
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 9:16pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
OK, Wonka...that's all fine and cool...and I understand that we all have our own opinions and no opinions are incorrect.

BUT...

I don't understand how something can be "beautiful" but terrible in the same breath.  The 2 don't go hand in hand with me at all.  


Hey DS -

True - each to his own (and it's all well and good, either way.)

But - just to clarify - I don't see the discrepancy in what I wrote.  Visually, I tip my hand  to the technical CG mastery in Avatar (and Rick - you're right: it probably would have been GORGEOUS in 3d.)

But just because I think a movie is pretty, doesn't mean I think it works as a movie.  

Because a film is a lot more than a bunch of pretty visuals.  Or even terrific visuals.

What makes a film worthy  (IMHO) is the synergy between visual excellence, plot and acting.

If anything of these are absolute crap, then the rest is...well, absolute crap.  

Would I kiss the feet of the FX artists that made Avatar possible?
Damn Skippy (as my best friend would say.)

But the film itself?  2+ hours of cliche, pathetically cardboard storytelling that I'll never get back.

(Guess I should learn to be more subtle about my opinion, huh?)  
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Elmer
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 9:21pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
OK, Wonka...that's all fine and cool...and I understand that we all have our own opinions and no opinions are incorrect.

BUT...

I don't understand how something can be "beautiful" but terrible in the same breath.  The 2 don't go hand in hand with me at all.  


I can take a terrible picture of a beautiful person. A terrible singer can sing a beautifully written song. A screenwriter can write the most technically well written dialogue and action paragraphs on earth and still write a bad story.

It is very easy for something to be beautiful and terrible at the same time.
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leitskev
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 9:23pm Report to Moderator
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The thing about Avatar is that even before you have a story, you have a top director using the latest technology and a huge budget to create a 3d world of another planet. That alone is going to bring a huge audience, before the story.

I was excited to see Avatar. Then I was turned off when I saw a trailer online and I knew it was going to be more political/ideological indoctrination. I was like, man, give it a break Hollywood.

Not too surprising, I guess. Much of that ideology is built on fantasy, just like Hollywood.

You see, because of its ideological blinders, Hollywood misses the great debates that could be the source of great movie making. Let's take Iraq.

The Bush people led the US to war on Iraq because 1) they understood in the era of mass weapons of terror, even small nations are a threat to large ones; 2) the believed that oppressive regimes and lack of liberty in the Middle East is the major source of those motivated to terror; 3) we had the opportunity to do in Iraq what we did in Germany and Japan after WW II, that is create stable democracies that become a source for peace and freedom in the world; 4) we legal and moral justification to war with Iraq, who was in violation of the UN agreement ending the first war; and 5) Iraq was doable on the cheap(compared to other wars historically).

My skepticism from the outset was that stable democracy could be created here. No need to risk offending people going into that too much, but this is a tribal area, not a people with one culture like in Germany or Japan.

I also knew that this notion that the Iraqis would see us as liberators is a naive misunderstanding of human nature. No matter how well behaved the troops were, no matter how generous, they would be seen as foreign conquerers.

All of this creates a great opportunity for movies! And yes, that would include the inevitable misbehavior of troops in some cases, human nature being what it is.

This notion of war for oil or war for empire is a fantasy. It has not even the slightest basis in reality. None. The oil was a factor because it was seen as a way of rebuilding the country. Do people think this is like some video game and we took the oil? Silly. And an American empire? Please. Open a history book for God's sake if you want to know how empire's act.

So when Hollywood makes movies about Iraq where this is the premise, it is a missed opportunity to make a film about a complex issue filled with real intrigue. And it misinforms a very gullible public. Sorry if I hate that, but I do.
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: April 4th, 2011, 9:28pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Elmer
I know we don't need to completely overthrow it, but the film demonizes the heck out of capitalism and places the blame for all earthly problems directly onto the shoulders of white Americans. Also, I wonder what % of James Cameron's large salary has been invested...

My point isn't whether or not the environment is important, it's just that despite the messages in the film, everything about the way the film was made, the way the industry works, and the way their money is spent, is completely hypocritical.


I know what you're saying.

TBF I don't think most people would identify the bad guys as "White America" as such...it's an Amercian film so you naturally expect US actors. In many ways it would have been weirder to have different nationalities as the bad guys as it would then be seen to be making a point about their nations...basically better to stick to your own and have good guys and bad guys from the same place...the good guys were White Americans as well.

So it makes it about the issues rather than nationality or race...colonialsim and corporate greed vs living harmoniously with each otehr and the planet.
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