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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Reviews    Movie, Television and DVD Reviews  ›  The Human Centipede (First Sequence) Moderators: Nixon
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  Author    The Human Centipede (First Sequence)  (currently 3067 views)
James McClung
Posted: May 22nd, 2010, 12:07pm Report to Moderator
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Saw this at a midnight screening last night. Absolute blast! A much bigger audience than expected and people seemed a little more psyched for the movie than usual. Even the usher was raving about the soon-to-be-legendary shit scene. My friend and I were decently liquored up by the time we arrived. We got popcorn and I got a big glass of Stella Artois. The movie was just starting by the time we sat down. Good times!

The movie opens just like any other bad horror movie. Two brainless American tourists that nobody cares about get lost in the woods of Germany and get a flat tire. What do they do? Of course they try their cell phones for the "emergency car service." And of course, there's no service. What do they do next? Go and get help, get lost in the woods and bitch at each other. Until... one of them sees "a light or something." "For some reason, I don't believe you!" says the other.

It's at this point, I realized the excruciatingly bad dialogue (and I mean bad, like Cabin bad) was all too intentional. Right off the bat, you know this is either supposed to be a parody or director Tom Six just knew his audience all too well. That is to say he knew that they only came to see three human beings sewn together ass to mouth and rather than try to get any genuine storytelling going on, he opted to keep his audience entertained with comically over-the-top filler. And it works. Surprisingly, as bad as the dialogue gets and as stupid as the characters become, it all feels smart. Not only does it nail every common horror movie cliche, it also takes the piss out of other, less noticeable cliches that most horror fans overlook. Not to mention some lines that make no sense that nobody would ever say in real life. Only if they were half-retarded and stuck in a sadistic torture flick.

Then we get to Dr. Heiter's place, our beloved villain. This guy just reeks creepy, deranged and evil right off the bat. There's no reason these girls wouldn't turn around right at the sight of him. But of course they don't because we gotta see the human centipede. Again, this feels all too apparent at this point. The movie is definitely on top of things and on the same level as its audience.

So we get our token "getting-to-know-eachother" scene with the girls and our just excruciatingly sinister bad guy with bad cliche lines such as "you have a lovely home." But Six doesn't waste our time. It's only a matter of time before our girls are tied up in the basement next to a stereotypical screaming Japanese dude who spouts off Nazi slurs. Here, Heiter explains his master plan, one that pretty much every horror fan should already be familiar with. Why is he doing this... Just for fun, I guess.

I think other directors might've waited til the end to unveil the human centipede, assuming that they needed some superficial narrative with no substance to fill 75-80 minutes. But no. Once again, Tom Six seems to have predicted the response to the whole idea from the getgo and opted to dedicate an entire movie to this horrible freak of nature. The "unveiling" is totally deranged and hilarious. The whole time our centipede is lamenting its existence, Heiter is crying tears of joy and, for some reason, looking at himself in the mirror. It recalled the threesome scene in American Psycho where Patrick Bateman is flexing and pointing at himself in the mirror. Of course, here, it's even way more over the top and ridiculous. What follows is Heiter teaching his new "dog" how to... fetch, I guess? And of course the shit scene. But you'll just have to see that for yourself.

I think anyone who hated Funny Games will like The Human Centipede. I felt a Funny Games vibe more than any other film and yet without all of Haneke's snarkiness and finger-pointing. Overall, it feels like as much of a parody of mainstream fodder like Saw and Hostel as it is of much sharper flicks like Audition and Oldboy (one of the final lines is actually borrowed from Oldboy). That's not to say this isn't its own film. Once the centipede is introduced, it becomes less of a parody but never quite takes itself too seriously and is always at least aware of the formula it's using. Very seldom is it ineffective. In fact, I'd say the only real problem with the film is that it took very few opportunities to be genuinely dark or disturbing. There were a few. But then when you have lines like "Shit. I have to shit." I guess it'd be better to keep things "light." In fact, overall, the whole "human centipede" idea is just so vile and aberrant that it kind of takes care of everything else. Probably why I didn't notice the movie isn't particularly gory until just now. I suppose that's another problem people might have with the film but it didn't bother me at all.

So after seeing the trailer for this, I was actually completely turned off and lowered my expectations considerably. Now I feel as if I'd gone in with the expectations I had originally, I wouldn't have been disappointed. Definitely a sick, silly, over-the-top little horror flick. Way better than most modern horror-comedy hybrids, even really good ones like "Teeth." At the same time, the humor doesn't feel like a copout because the whole idea is just so bizarre that it kind of excuses any of the director's taking the piss. No matter what, the film is still called The Human Centipede and has two girls and a guy sewn together ass to mouth. You're not going to see another one of these in ten years.



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James McClung  -  May 23rd, 2010, 12:48pm
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Tommyp
Posted: May 22nd, 2010, 7:59pm Report to Moderator
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Great review James, thanks for that.

I saw the trailer too, and am pumped to see this film.

Apparently it's "medically accurate".... thoughts on this? Did it seem possible?


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James McClung
Posted: May 23rd, 2010, 12:39pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Tommyp
Apparently it's "medically accurate".... thoughts on this? Did it seem possible?


As far as the surgery goes, it seemed simple enough. As for the functionality of the centipede itself... yeah, that seemed to work too. There was one issue I thought may have strayed from being "medically accurate" but they did address it. Maybe not as much as I thought they should've but I'm not a doctor. At least, they touched on it. Who knows? Could still be legit.


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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: June 10th, 2010, 4:57pm Report to Moderator
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Pretty good. A lot better than I epxected actually. I thought it was going to be a silly exploitation piece, but it's actually a serious film.

Very dark and tense. There's some dark humour in it but it stays on tone throughout.

It was pretty tame compared to most horror films as well in the gore stakes, most things are suggested rather than portrayed.

A pleasant surprise.
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dogglebe
Posted: June 10th, 2010, 5:55pm Report to Moderator
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People expect this film to be a lot gorier than it is when, in fact, it scores extremely low in gore.

The concept is what is so shocking about this movie.  And since everyone knows what it is about, the hurdle has been cleared.  Grab the kids and take them to this movie. After that, shoot them all in the head and leave their little bodies on the side of the road.


Phil (putting it all into perspective)
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Heretic
Posted: June 15th, 2010, 2:25am Report to Moderator
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I found this underwhelming, which is precisely what such a film shouldn't be.  Not bad enough to be fun, not good enough to be anything else, certainly not "twisted" or gory enough to elicit any sort of visceral response.  Dieter Laser was a campy one-note delight, but other than that I didn't see that this had much going for it.  Six is obviously a talented director -- at least technically -- but he needs to commit himself to something a little more important than this.  Something where, for example, we find out if he can direct a good performance or not.  I'm hoping this was just a clever way of achieving notoriety, and that he'll move on to more worthwhile films.

The victims are either whimpering or yelling and screaming the entire film.  This ruined my ability to enjoy a lot of it.  It's not effective, it's not scary, it's not tense, it's just annoying.

The dark humour was certainly successful once the centipede had been completed.  However, there wasn't enough of it, which was strange, since much of the second act had no momentum whatsoever other than the amusing story of a man and his unorthodox pet.

The protagonists are idiots and impossible to take seriously or care for.  This is why we can enjoy the humour, but also why the rest of the movie falls flat.  

Despite my largely negative comments it is undeniable that Six is more talented than most directors working in horror today.  Personally, I don't consider that to be saying much, but it is saying something, and I expected this to be a film that I couldn't be bothered saying anything about.

A curiosity, to be sure.  An effective film, no.  But a curiosity.  Interested to see if Six tries his hand at something worthwhile or continues with pointless horror.
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Dreamscale
Posted: December 2nd, 2010, 4:12pm Report to Moderator
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Well...I was far from impressed.  I'd have to second pretty much everything Heretic had to say, minus the praise.

The premise/setup is just plain old ridiculous.  2 American girls on vacation in Germany barely get directions over the phone , don't write anything down, drive into the deep, dark woods, and then, when they get a flat tire, they literally take off on foot through said deep, dark woods, as opposed to following the road.  That's just piss poor, and IMO, completely unacceptable.  I say so many times, when reading scripts, that the initial setup has to make sense (at least), and it just mystifies me how often that isn't the case.

The acting was bad. The dialogue was bad.  The action was non existent for most of the film. With such an outlandish premise (a mad doctor crates a "centipede" out of humans), this entire movie should have been balls out, and it wasn't.

Casting a Japanese dude who doesn't speak English and subtitling all the goofy things he screamed was a big mistake, IMO.  It was irritating, to put it lightly.

I really don't care of Six was trying to take the piss, or whatever you want to call it.  It did not come off as a serious attempt at horror, and IMO, it should have, to have any chance of working.

So, although I was majorly underwhelmed and did not care for it, it wasn't as horrible as I expected it to be.  I've seen far, far worse!  I guess I should have been hammered when I sat down to this one.
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: December 2nd, 2010, 4:27pm Report to Moderator
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I would have thought you would have enjoyed this one, Jeff.

It's not without its flaws, but it had a certain horrifying power that few modern films seem to have. It's stayed with me to a degree as well.

Time you put your money where your mouth is, as they say, in such cliched fashion, and write a genre resurrecting masterpiece...I mean that in the nicest possible way of course.

Rick.

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Murphy
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Underwhelming, that was a great way to sum this up.

I didn't think it was awful, it certainly does have something there, a spark that shows this writer/director could actually go on and make some great films. But I was underwhelmed, mainly because I was expecting so much worse, I sat down with a feeling of dread and uneasy excitement that I rarely watch a film with and ended up disappointed. I think it suffered for its hype.

It did get a bit funky towards the end, I think with the two cops it started to turn into a farce, and I agree with Jeff, the Japanese guy was annoying me. I did get why he was there, it added to the horror that the mouth couldn't communicate with the other two but this also then removed any possibility of exploring the real horror of this situation. In my mind real horror comes from the characters and how they are affected by what is happening to them. This was devoid of any of that and I think it ultimately suffers for it.

He has got more money to make Second Sequence and it will be very interesting to see what he can do with the bigger budget.
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dogglebe
Posted: December 2nd, 2010, 5:23pm Report to Moderator
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I just saw the teaser for HC2.  That was painfully bad.  I'd rather watch a really fat guy squeeze pimples on his ass.

Lovely imagery, I know.


Phil
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Dreamscale
Posted: December 2nd, 2010, 5:33pm Report to Moderator
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Rick, you're funny.  I'll write a genre defining horror script soon, but keep in mind that I already have in Fade to White.  Give me a $15 million budget, a smart director, a good DP and editor, a solid cast, and we'll be seeing dollar signs, a happy audience, thrilled investors, and of course, the long overdue sequel that will light up the BO again.

Then...ah...then...

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Scar Tissue Films
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Fade to White is good...but it's not The One, Jeffrey.

I want you to reach into the deep, dark recesses of your soul, write till your beating heart pumps blood from the ends of your fingertips and you are in a trance-like state between life and death. I want you to descend into the murkiest depths of human existence and show us the horrors that lurk just behind this thin illusion we like to call reality.

Then I want you to lift us up, having helped us to transcend our banal existence, because true horror, the greatest horror, leaves us feeling enlightened as all successful escapes from the supernatural do.

I want that script delivered to me on May 13th 2011 and I want it signed in your blood.

No excuses.
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Dreamscale
Posted: December 2nd, 2010, 5:57pm Report to Moderator
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What's with May 13, 2011?

Will we have a $15 Million budget or so?

Is there payment up front or on completion?  I could use a bone or 2, as times are pretty tough lately.

OK Rick, based on the answers I get back, I'm all over it.
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Scar Tissue Films
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I'm talking about art...the deepest, blackest, most terrifyingly beautiful art and all you can think about is money?

It was intended as inspiration, nothing more as yet.

The 13th May is Friday the 13th...maybe the planets or the muses will align just right for such a script.
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Dreamscale
Posted: December 2nd, 2010, 7:45pm Report to Moderator
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Yeah, all I can think about is money, as I'm in great need of some.

I've actually got some thoughts on a new script, so we'll see where they go.

I do appreciate the inspiration...God knows I need some.
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James McClung
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I'm always interested to read reactions to this one. When I first heard about it, I thought it'd be the next big thing in horror. Now I don't really see it as much more than a laugh spawned from a really sick, bizarre concept. I don't think I'd see it again. Doesn't seem like a film with much replay value if any. Yet some people still seemed really appalled and disturbed by it. Despite a lot of people finding it underwhelming, I do think it made it's mark and separated itself from the flock, good or bad. I'll check out the sequel when it comes out.

Honestly, I think ideas like this and Teeth are as good as it gets for the horror genre nowadays. The ones that are really outstanding almost always transcend the genre to the point that they can't really be considered straight horror. The rest are usually just goofy, slightly sick, slightly fun ideas that wouldn't have flown last century. The genre's just about dead as far as I'm concerned.


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Murphy
Posted: December 2nd, 2010, 11:48pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from James McClung
The genre's just about dead as far as I'm concerned.


I hope you are wrong James, I sense a little bit of your glass being half empty here.

I think that is up to us! One of us can write a good horror film and help to change it. I have seen a few decent horrors from Europe over the last 10 years that make me feel there could yet be a return to more character driven horrors that were made 30 years ago.

The Devil's backbone, The Orphanage, Let the right one in, I even thought Hierro, while weak in places was a decently scary film and not a drop of gore in it.

I would love to think these European style of mood horrors could work transplanted to America, they are more like thrillers really, as in strong plot and characters but a scary or creepy subject matter.

Did you see The Mothman Prophecies?, that is the last American film I can think of that came close (though I am probably forgetting a bucketfull). I actually really liked Mothman, I thought it was a great film.

I would love to write something smart and scary and I am sure a large audience would go for it.
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James McClung
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 12:31am Report to Moderator
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Nah. I'm sticking to my guns. I've devoured horror movies for years in morbidly obese fashion. I would've never thought I'd say it was near dead but... it really is. That's not to say there won't be more great horror movies in the future. I'm sure they'll be tons. But I think they'll be anomalous to the genre as a whole. I wouldn't say it's all bad at the moment but a lot of it's just plain mediocre and what's worse is that most of the good films that come along really aren't good enough.

I loved Devil's Backbone and Let The Right One In. Surprised to say, I wasn't impressed by the Orphanage. I might have to see it again. Didn't care for Mothman. I thought it was okay. Richard Gere really brought it down though. He's one of those actors like Kevin Costner who just never wants to be in a good movie. The Devil's Backbone really is a standout example of great horror but Let The Right One In is one of those transcendent horror movies I was referring to. It felt more like a drama with horror iconography to me, as horrific as it was. I felt the same about Martyrs and Thirst which are among my favorites. Those films didn't fit the mold. That's what made them great films but not necessarily great horror films. As much as I'd love for Europe's mood horror to hit it big over here, I'm skeptical. But I'd be happy just to see Europe make more of them.

I totally agree that it's up to us to help change the genre. For me, I feel like I already wrote that script with Complete. I accomplished just about everything I set out to do with that one to the point where I'm not interested in writing horror movies anymore. And I've got some bites from legit producers which fell through for various reasons but it just goes to show there's something there. At this point, I'd rather just shoot it myself once I've gathered the competence.


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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 5:13am Report to Moderator
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Interesting point of view James.

I think the best Horror films and stories do tend to transcend genres, but I think that's true of most genres...drama's with thriller elements for eg.

I think the problem for straight horror is that there's only so many ways you can go. There are only 3 types of horror and it essentially becomes a case of a person or peoples fighting for their lives against a randomly chosen creature/killer.

The only way to add depth is to deal with bigger themes, which will probably take it into different territory.
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James McClung
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 10:12am Report to Moderator
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I totally agree. The best films mix it up. I just feel like there was a time where horror movies could go really far without necessarily breaking formula. A time where whatever your 3 types of horror are were enough. And that time seems to have passed, if not near passing. Maybe I'm just cynical. I usually am. But I'm positive that there's a shortage of quality and creativity in the genre that's not nearly as glaring an issue in other genres.

I totally agree with Murphy that it's up to us to change that. I just have to wonder how many people will step up to the plate and even more, step up with enough of what it takes.


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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 11:28am Report to Moderator
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Out of interest...when was the time that Horror was particularly good?

I've always been a big horror fan, but hasn't it always been a ghetto genre?

In some ways horror has recently been on a high with the appearance of the Japanese/Korean films and the work of Directors like Del Torro whose films you mentioned above.

Not to mention the Zombie craze.

I do think that Horror is the hardest of all genres to do properly. Drama is by far the easiest IMO. It's hard to think of anything that couldn't make a decent drama.

The problem with horror films specifically is that they have to show the "bad guy"...something which reduces them from horror literature for a start where they can exist in perfection in your mind.

Be interesting to go through the years with horror and see when it was ever actually good.
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bert
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 12:00pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Scar Tissue Films
Be interesting to go through the years with horror and see when it was ever actually good.


I thought about your question for a bit, and now wonder if maybe horror can become "dated" in a way that other genres do not.

Surely Frankenstein and Dracula were considered "good" in their day, but do little for viewers today outside of those who are interested in the genre.

Then later you got classic Hitchcock -- Psycho or Birds -- but today these inspire mostly yawns from the casual viewer.

I hear the same thing from many about "The Exorcist" today.  That film scared the bejeezus out of everybody at the time -- myself included -- but today it earns a "meh" from those in the younger crowd.

Centipede was just trying to up the stakes yet again -- but this was a pretty stupid film, I'm afraid.  Entertaining as a novelty, but with no lasting charm, and I can't imagine anybody returning to watch this film multiple times.

So I think Horror has been good in the past, but maybe "good" is more of a moving target for Horror than other genres...?


Hey, it's my tiny, little IMDb!
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 12:13pm Report to Moderator
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Definitely Bert.

This is a list of the 100 "best" horror films ever.

http://www.best-horror-movies.com/100-best-horror-films.html

Obviously not trying to claim it's a definitive list, but these things usually overlap to some degree.

Top Ten:

10. Friday the 13th (1980, Directed by Sean S. Cunningham)

9. The Evil Dead (1981, Directed by Sam Raimi)

8. Psycho (1960, Directed by Alfred Hitchcock)

7. A Nightmare on Elm Street (1984, Directed by Wes Craven)

6. The Shining (1980, Directed by Stanley Kubrick)

5. Night of the Living Dead (1968, Directed by Dean Lachiusa & George Romero)

4. Halloween (1978, Directed by John Carpenter)

3. Dawn of the Dead (1978, Written and Directed by George A. Romero)

2. Alien (1979, Directed by Ridley Scott)

1. The Exorcist (1973


Although I have a nostalgic liking of most of those, only a handful really stand up in my opinion. Nightmare on Elm Street was scary as a kid, not seen it for years. Alien definitely (though it's not a horror for me...still the best trailer of all time as well). The Romero films have still got it...sort of. Even the two "classics" of the genre, The Shining and the Exoricst, didn't do anything for me at the time and really don't now.

Something like Psycho has to be included on any best list...it was genre changing and incredibly influential, and it stil has some power today, but it doesn't compare to the visceral power of modern horror.

Horror definitely ages fast.
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Dreamscale
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 12:24pm Report to Moderator
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I think we need a new thread if you really want to talk about horror as a genre and what has happened to it...and what we can do to revive it.

Horror isn't dead, BTW.  Hollywood is just fucking the genre up, as of late.  Actually, it's more the overall system that is fucking everything up.
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 12:34pm Report to Moderator
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I'd definitley like to see that discussion...get it started.
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James McClung
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I wasn't arguing whether or not horror was ever actually good. Rather that there was a time where new ideas were actually good. They made you want to see the movie. You didn't have to be sold on reviews or word of mouth. Ideas like The Human Centipede are full blown silly and seem to be what's put out there as original these days. Sometimes the films are really good. Teeth. Stupid idea. Decent execution. But initial reactions to original ideas nowadays seem more along the lines of "Wait, what?" than "Cool." It makes me a little sad.

As to whether or not horror's actually been "good," that's a matter of opinion. I, of course, would say yes. The 70s and 80s were the golden age of horror. Some of them may seem dated and some of the classics never really jived with some people, as you've said about The Shining and The Exorcist. But the fact is we'll probably never get films that affected people the way a lot of those old ones did again.

Personally speaking, I hold films like Hellraiser, Evil Dead and Reanimator above most films from any era or any genre. Those were straight kickass movies. Period. The majority of horror today is lucky just to be passable.


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James McClung
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BTW, there was a thread like that years back. It went on forever.

I still think horror's near dead. Complain about Hollywood all you want but if you watch horror movies from all around the world, you'll see few are really bringing it.

The solution for us as writers is simple. Write kickass horror movies.


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Scar Tissue Films
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Fair enough.

Be cool if we could continue this discussion elsewhere and you could point out which films you thought were good ideas from the past.

I do agree that Hellraiser was a great idea and a film...Clive Barker is a genius...unfortunately even he never managed to repeat that particular feat and he's now involved in remaking it. Nightbreed (Cabal) was a cool idea, but it wasn't properly constructed in film form.

Re-Animator was a great film, but it was more the vibrancy of the execution than the idea that was great.

Evil Dead was a lot of fun, but it was hardly a particularly novel idea.


As for films affecting people...honestly, I think those days have pretty much gone for all genres. They've become titillation and distraction. Only a handful of people probably really "care" about films the way we do.

For the record, here's a list of horror films from the past, all the way to 2014.

We can get Ray to go through them and tell us which ideas were any good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_horror_films
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Scar Tissue Films
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Quoted from James McClung
BTW, there was a thread like that years back. It went on forever.

I still think horror's near dead. Complain about Hollywood all you want but if you watch horror movies from all around the world, you'll see few are really bringing it.

The solution for us as writers is simple. Write kickass horror movies.


I think all genre's are near dead.

Last year saw a three film Sci-Fi revival.

Other than that, that genre's dead.

Drama is irrelevant in the internet, 24 hour news age. There hasn't been a decent action film since Die Hard. Period Dramas, Westerns, Historical stories have flat-lined.

Tween action is the only thing with any kind of life in it.

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James McClung
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 1:05pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Scar Tissue Films


I think all genre's are near dead.

Last year saw a three film Sci-Fi revival.

Other than that, that genre's dead.

Drama is irrelevant in the internet, 24 hour news age. There hasn't been a decent action film since Die Hard. Period Dramas, Westerns, Historical stories have flat-lined.

Tween action is the only thing with any kind of life in it.



Completely disagree. Every one of those genre's got room to grow. They're just in a sorry state at the moment. Horror's in a sorry state and has little room to grow... But there's still a bit left.


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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 2:21pm Report to Moderator
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Having thought about it...I think Horror is one of the only genre's left with any room to grow tbh.

Even things like 3D could impact on horror in ways that it couldn't on drama.

I could conceive of incredible things to do with cross-platform stuff utilising mobile phones, the internet etc as well.

If I had more resources, I could put horror on a new level, for sure.
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Dreamscale
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 2:31pm Report to Moderator
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Rick, what resources are you referring to?  What exactly is holding you back?

I do agree with you that horror is far from dead or washed up.  There are so many ways to go with it, and the really cool thing about the horror genre (just like the action genre) is that story doesn't really need to be front and center for it to work.  I know some will adamantly disagree with me, but it's true.

Horror relies on 2 things...visuals and feelings.  If either or both are present and accounted for, chances are good that the script/movie will work.

The Human Centipede had neither, IMO.
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dogglebe
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 2:32pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Scar Tissue Films

Drama is irrelevant in the internet, 24 hour news age. There hasn't been a decent action film since Die Hard. Period Dramas, Westerns, Historical stories have flat-lined.


No decent action films?  What about the Iron Man movies?  The Dark Knight movies?  The Fantastic Four movies?  The Bourne movies?


Phil
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 2:45pm Report to Moderator
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Do Superhero movies count as action movies?

I suppose so.

Iron Man was OK. Better than the usual fayre. Hardly a classic. 2 was pap.

Didn't really enjoy Dark Knight. Joker was good, the story and the emotion were wanting. Batman's voice and his weak characterisation also made it largely unwatchable, for me at least. I appreciate that I'm in a huge minority on that one. Still put the reception of the film down to Ledger's death above all else and keep expecting people to realise the Emperor has no clothes, but that doesn't seem to be happening.

The Bourne films were very good as well, to be fair.

Speed was good, Keanue Reeves aside.

Gladiator was good...although I feel I'm pushing the genre's a bit here. That's the last of 'em.

All in all, it's about as dire as genres get.
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dogglebe
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 3:04pm Report to Moderator
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I would say that superheroes is a sub-genre of action films, for the most part.  The X-Men on the list.  Maybe even Watchmen, though it wasn't the best adaptation.

Gladiator might be pushing the genre, but so would a lot of other movies, including Taken and Inglorious Bastards.

HBO does a lot of period dramas, though they're mini-series or series.  John Hancock, Carnivale, Boardwalk Empire.  Others would include The King's Speech, Sherlock Holmes and Far And Away.

Westerns:  The pickins are pretty slim, here but you have Unforgiven and The Assassination of Jessie James by (somebody).


Phil
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 3:25pm Report to Moderator
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We're picking a few crumbs here out of the last two decades or so, which tells it's own story.

Tombstone and 3:10 to Yuma were decent Westerns as well.

I love films and I rarely see one that I don't enjoy on some level, but if I turn my critical eye to all the genres, there's not a lot of mainstream stuff being made that's top notch.

It's incredibly made on a technical level...frighteningly good actually...but the heart and soul are so often lacking.
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Scar Tissue Films
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Quoted from Dreamscale
Rick, what resources are you referring to?  What exactly is holding you back?

I do agree with you that horror is far from dead or washed up.  There are so many ways to go with it, and the really cool thing about the horror genre (just like the action genre) is that story doesn't really need to be front and center for it to work.  I know some will adamantly disagree with me, but it's true.

Horror relies on 2 things...visuals and feelings.  If either or both are present and accounted for, chances are good that the script/movie will work.

The Human Centipede had neither, IMO.


Resources?

Money mainly.

If I had a group of talented and committed people around me then I might be able to do it without money, but I don't, it's just me.

Personally, I strongly disagree about the story, story is king for me in every genre,  but I do agree that visuals are very important to horror, which is why the above is a problem. You can theoretically make horror films without them on the cheap, but there's only so far you can take it and you end up recycling earlier stuff.
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Dreamscale
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 4:05pm Report to Moderator
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Rick, I think if you look at any list of horror movies and pick out ones that stand above the others, for whatever reason, you'll find that story is not necessarily king.  It can be for sure, but it's usually not the case.
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James McClung
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I can see how the feeling and visuals of a horror movie would take precedent over story. I'm not sure to what extent I agree but I can see it. That's the stuff you almost always take away from a horror movie. But I don't the story should be glossed over. A lot of horror movies have bad stories and when horror movies have bad stories, I tend to lose sight of the other stuff. The genre somehow facilitates a lot more cringeworthy narrative stuff then other genres. But story aside, I think the feeling and the visuals are the things that are most dead in horror movies today. They all look like music videos and perfume commercials. Not to mention they all look the same music videos and perfume commercials. A handful of directors came in over the past decade, established a really lame, flashy overproduced style and set the standard for future directors who came in with no imagination whatsoever. The biggest problem is few of them really have the courage to go to that quintessential dark place. That's the greatest crime of all, I'd say.

When you don't have strong feeling, visuals or story, you're fucked. Hence dying genre.


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Scar Tissue Films
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They are for me mate:

The Omen, Jacob's Ladder, Hellraiser, Nightmare on Elm Street, The Fly, Saw, The Wicker Man, Misery, Cemetary Man, Phenomena, The Orphanage, Devil's Backbone, Let the Right One In, Ringu, Kairo, Infection, Puppet Master, The Doll Master, Dumplings, Strange Circus, The Forbidden Door and last but not least Tale of Two Sisters ... a lot of them are East Asian and from the last ten years...they've been killing it out there. Their cinema is so much more relevant it makes me wonder about moving out there sometimes.

Pretty much all my favourites are the ones with strong stories.

I have enjoyed some films like F13 and Maniac Cop that don't tell much of a story, but story for me will always be the most important part of a film. That's what I judge all films on primarily.

There's also a few ike Ju-on, Shutter, Faithless Hell and the Ring to a lesser extent that rely on visuals/set pieces, but which are still more "serious".
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 4:46pm Report to Moderator
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Check out this site:

http://www.cultreviews.com/articles/the-50-best-asian-horror-films/6/

Some killer horror stories in there.

Marebito (Japan), Abnormal Beauty (China), Uzumaki (China), Diary.

Beautifully written, deep, dark and weird.

Neil Gaiman is the only westerner I've come across with anything like as much to offer, and that's purely in his short stories, not in films.
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Murphy
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 4:49pm Report to Moderator
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I think it is a lot simpler that many think, the reason why Horror films of the past are remembered with such reverence is that back in the day horror filmmakers were filmmakers. In that they understood how to make a good film, regardless of genre. Most of todays new breed are not, they just throw as much blood and stupid ideas against a wall and hope some of it sticks. This is why Del Torro's stable are coming out with the new horror masterpieces, he is actually teaching them how to makes films, not just horror.

I say simple, I mean it is no difference form any other genre. If you were making a love story you want your audience to feel the love, so you create characters that allow your audience to feel what they are feeling. Great horror is the same, we get scared because we feel what the characters feel and they are scared, we care about what happens to them. This is the basic ingredient of all great films no matter what the genre.

Horror makers for some reason have evolved the genre to a point where characters are no longer important, that special effects and coming up with an even sillier premise are more important. This is why most of them are crap and boring, certainly not scary.

Nobody has mentioned Jaws, is this not a horror film? I would say it might be.
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Scar Tissue Films
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Quoted from Murphy
I think it is a lot simpler that many think, the reason why Horror films of the past are remembered with such reverence is that back in the day horror filmmakers were filmmakers. In that they understood how to make a good film, regardless of genre. Most of todays new breed are not, they just throw as much blood and stupid ideas against a wall and hope some of it sticks. This is why Del Torro's stable are coming out with the new horror masterpieces, he is actually teaching them how to makes films, not just horror.

I say simple, I mean it is no difference form any other genre. If you were making a love story you want your audience to feel the love, so you create characters that allow your audience to feel what they are feeling. Great horror is the same, we get scared because we feel what the characters feel and they are scared, we care about what happens to them. This is the basic ingredient of all great films no matter what the genre.

Horror makers for some reason have evolved the genre to a point where characters are no longer important, that special effects and coming up with an even sillier premise are more important. This is why most of them are crap and boring, certainly not scary.

Nobody has mentioned Jaws, is this not a horror film? I would say it might be.


Absolutely.

For some reason Western filmmakers dispense with character, theme, depth and just throw cheap scares at you.

They treat their material like a throwaway joke, so that's what it becomes.
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Murphy
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 5:08pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Scar Tissue Films


Absolutely.

For some reason Western filmmakers dispense with character, theme, depth and just throw cheap scares at you.

They treat their material like a throwaway joke, so that's what it becomes.


I hate it when people can say in two lines what it takes me paragraphs to say! I am so bad at writing  . Nicely summed up though.

I was thinking about this the other day, well thinking about genres anyway and came to the conclusion that genres are nothing more than emotions. Love, Horror, Thriller, they are just emotional states. The only way to make your audience experience an emotion you want them to is to create a character they identity with and then make that character feel that emotion.

This is people cry when watching films (I am bad for it), They get so emotionally attached to the character they feel his pain, suffering, horror etc... Anyone that can do that is a damn good filmmaker. Who is capable of that anymore? The list is getting shorter every day. And yet this is the most important ingredient of drama.

I think if people want to make horror again they have to forget about making a horror genre film, how about just making a good drama that scares and thrills people? To me that is effectively what the great horrors were anyway.
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Dreamscale
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 5:13pm Report to Moderator
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I don't want anyone to think that I don't think story matters, because I know damn well that it does.  I just don't think it has to be Earth Shattering...it doesn't have to be HUGE in scope.  It has to work, it has to make sense, and it has to be engaging.

From there, IMO, the feelings and visuals take over.  And let's be clear, by visuals, I'm not specifically talking about FX work, or even gore.  I'm talking about striking visuals that stick with you long after the movie is over, and sometimes, forever.

It's the same with feelings, and I'm not necessarily talking only about being scared or freaked out.  I'm talking about something that hits hard enough so that you remember it long after the movie is over, and again, maybe forever.

To create such visuals and feelings, the script has to offer instances for such.  It's something I look for in every script I read.  I always make comments about scripts not being visual or not offering much in terms of opportunities for strong scenes.  IMO, it's what is most important in a horror script.

Good points made about certain directors/film makers who have brought a new stylized approach to movies.  These are not really film makers, IMO, and they have indeed helped to destroy movies, especially horror movies.

But the big problem is what I said earlier.  It's the fact that everyone is a follower nowadays.  Everyone tries to emulate earlier successes.  The powers that be are all afraid to break the mold and step out of the box.  Everything is too expensive to make a misstep.  Studios would rather remake old movies than take a chance on something new and unique.

It's a sad state of affairs, and pisses me off to no end.
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RayW
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Quoted from Scar Tissue Films
For some reason Western filmmakers dispense with character, theme, depth and just throw cheap scares at you.

They treat their material like a throwaway joke, so that's what it becomes.


Your point was brought up with MC's Pagan Edition, of which I took note.
http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-RadioSimply/m-1286499940/

Do you guys think the ROW will eventually catch up to US/Western gore-porn-4-thrills (I think we're just culturally overstimulated by real life, leaving emotional subtlety a lost cause) and where do we go from here?




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Scar Tissue Films
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I know where you're coming from and I definitley agree that it's imperative to create those openings that allow you to make those memorable scenes.

One thing: I don't reckon things even necessarily have to make much sense to work. I think that's a very western thing, everything has to have a reason.

One of the films I mentioned above, Uzumaki, is about spirals haunting a village. Spiral patterns...not the first thing that comes to mind with horror.

Doesn't make a lick of sense really and they leave it completely ambiguous as to what it was, but that's part of the charm.

When you think about it, part of the allure of the supernmatural is the unkown and the paradox of life...seems strange that we feel the need to explain it all in the West.
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Dreamscale
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 5:37pm Report to Moderator
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Yep, I hear you, too, Rick.  But for me, things need to make sense.  Things have to have a reason.  When they don't, or they just downright don't make sense, I have serious problems.  Guess it's just my nature.
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Scar Tissue Films
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Quoted from RayW


Your point was brought up with MC's Pagan Edition, of which I took note.
http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-RadioSimply/m-1286499940/

Do you guys think the ROW will eventually catch up to US/Western gore-porn-4-thrills (I think we're just culturally overstimulated by real life, leaving emotional subtlety a lost cause) and where do we go from here?



The Japanese in particular are not averse to some pretty severe sadism in their films. Culturally I've heard it said that because Japan has been historically a repressive society, their Art has often been extreme.

I really don't know enough about Eastern Cinema to say more than that. Maybe someone can find an expert on Chinese Cinema for a Simply Radio?

As for where we go....honestly, I don't know. I really don't think Jeff is far off when he said that the whole system is a mess. Just a few companies own everything from the top down and they are very conservative and very domineering.

Maybe I'm being defeatist, but I get the impression that someone who wrote a breathtakingly original horror script would end up doing re-writes on Halloween 3 and the script would end up in permanent residence in some vault,

But if a group of people managed to get together, make some really powerful stuff, found a way to get it to a large audience...there's always a way.
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Murphy
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 6:47pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from RayW

...and where do we go from here?



Firstly, I think it is important to start tackling the problem at the roots, in much the same way we would eliminate overgrown weeds from a vegetable patch.

One of us needs to kidnap Eli Roth, take him to a remote cabin deep in the forest and cut his nuts off with a rusty fork.
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Dreamscale
Posted: December 3rd, 2010, 6:54pm Report to Moderator
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Eli is not the problem!

Eli showed that great, unique, genre defining horror can still be made and even made on the cheap.
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Baltis.
Posted: December 4th, 2010, 2:49pm Report to Moderator
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Beyond horrible.  Beyond the realm of remote bad taste even.  This movie was a huge exercise in pointless film making.  Why make this film?  Who will get anything out of this?  This, not unlike "last House" & "I Spit", is the reason why people think it's acceptable to push limits for the sake of pushing them rather than for a point or for effect.  Eli Roth, Jew to Jew here, I'm looking at you.

Nothing here spoke to me.  The acting was laughable on the girls part -- Loved how the wipers are on in the car, yet there is no rain.  Loved when the tire blows, car is soaked, yet road is not.  Loved how everything was too conveniently placed and set up too.  The only scene I found compelling was the pool scene with the blood.  And not because it was a huge part of the film, rather how it seemed kind of real; unlike the rest of the film.

Statement - "Movie sucked... What can I say"?

Reiteration - "Well I don't see you doing anything better".

Interjection - "Because I don't make movies, I write them".

Resolve - "Oh, well... um...um... Paper Plates are on sale at the Dollar-Tree for 50 cents today, and today only".

Resolve(2) - "I'm there, man.  Let's make a day of it".

---


The above was a pointless venture I took whoever wanted to read it on... Much like the director chose to do to me when I watched his movie (The Human Centipede)
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