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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Reviews    Movie, Television and DVD Reviews  ›  Star Wars Episode One: Phantom Menace (3D) Moderators: Nixon
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  Author    Star Wars Episode One: Phantom Menace (3D)  (currently 4026 views)
alffy
Posted: February 20th, 2012, 5:35pm Report to Moderator
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Andrew, you might have hit the nail there. These are kids movies. Maybe Phantom did so badly because the generation that loved Empire had grown up and perhaps expected episodes 1-3 to do the same?
Still hate Jar Jar annoying Binks though lol


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Andrew
Posted: February 20th, 2012, 5:43pm Report to Moderator
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I didn't mind Jar Jar, to be honest. I know there's a distaste for him based on the supposed stereotypes he represents (which I would agree are disappointing if intended), but I try to veer clear of reading too far into that.

If anything, Smith answered all the questions about race relations in the Galaxy with Hooper X in Chasing Amy*.

*I'm joking.


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Scar Tissue Films
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I can totally understand where you're coming from regarding the "extended Universe". It's very geeky, but a guilty pleasure of mine.

It's simply that without other authors coming in and fixing all the complete nonsense in the meantime the new trilogy is even worse.

I don't know how you even find it watchable without knowing a bit more about the likes of Darth Maul and all the faceless senators who spend so long on the screen.

It is simply broken as a film and as a story. Easily the most illogical film I've ever seen. Not one piece of the story makes sense and even the characters are internally inconsistent.

Of the hundred or so writers currently working in the Star Wars field...Lucas is the worst. I can only call it as I see it. The things he's directly involved in are the worst Star Wars stuff there is. Lucas makes bad kids films...that's been his limit for decades now. 35 years since he directed a good film!

The graphic novels and books preceding the new trilogy were good, the ones after the new trilogy were good..the films were terrible. The Clone Wars series (again Lucas directly involved) is OK...I suppose...for kids. ..but it's far worse than the more serious Clone War graphic novels.

I'm grateful he made the Universe, but whatever Francis Ford Coppola taught him about screenwriting seems to have long since been forgotten.

I really can't say for sure how good Lucas is. I can only see what he's slowly doing to Star Wars...the closer it gets to his original vision...the worse and worse it gets....look at Jabba!!!!

He thinks Empire strikes Back is the worst film of the 6. He was trying to make them all rubbish and failed!

http://blog.moviefone.com/2007/02/10/george-lucas-empire-strikes-back-was-the-worst-star-wars-film/


He even stops some of the best work being made. After 30 years of stories about Mandalorians (Boba Fett) being violent mercenaries opposed to the Jedi's...he's suddenly decided that they were all pacifists and the best Star Wars novel series ever has had to be stopped before the final book is released for this reason.

He's done the same with other characters, there was a great little series about the Clone Wars and a character called Quinlan Vos. The character was so good that Lucas has banned anyone from using him in case he wants to do something with him.

I think he knows himself he's not as good as some of the other kids playing with his toys.

And I agree that they are for kids...the ironic thing is that kids like more adult things...Star Wars was my favourite film (still is), along with Jaws, Terminator, Aliens...that's where it belongs to me. It was just as dark in its own way, it just left the violence off screen.

If we look at other series, they tend to get more mature as audiences age...Harry Potter for instance. Lucas is the opposite.

There's nothing in the first two films that's as childish as what has come later....and i really do think that it's because other people were there to fix certain things.

Even fans of the later trilogy must be in their 20's by now. Time for George to move on and let other people control Star Wars.

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leitskev
Posted: February 20th, 2012, 7:39pm Report to Moderator
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I am not a real Star Wars fanatic. I liked both trilogies. The original was an incomparable phenomena in film. I was about 10 or 11 when it came out, and kids used to brag about how many times they had seen it. Nothing like it ever before in film.

I am going to post below a copy of a post of mine in Scriptshadow's review last September. The best I can do to add to the conversation, and like I said, I am not a fanatic, so there's a ton of stuff I don't know or am not considering. But I think the prequel trilogy presents huge structural challenges, which I discuss, and I think Lucas does it decent job meeting those challenges.

posted in Sept 2011 in Scriptshadow

I was looking for a review for a film with a dark ending, and what's darker than this! Not sure if this qualifies, however, since it's a prequel, and we know how the story ultimately ends on a positive note.

I actually like the basic idea behind the prequel trilogy where we follow the child who ultimately succumbs and turns to the dark side. I realize this is a violation of some of Carson's rules for a protagonist, but the concept works here from two perspectives.

One, it is completely consistent with the basic theme of the original Star Wars trilogy, which involves a struggle against the powerful draw of the dark side. In order to achieve good in the world, one must develop power, and as we know, power corrupts.  So that is the risk. We see this in our own world when well intended politicians begin their careers with an idea of serving, and end up corrupted and sometimes convicted.

The the second reason the concept works is simple fascination. We know how it ends, with Darth Vader being the most notorious of evil movie figures. So to watch a character that is the likable hero be transformed holds our attention. It's like reading the biography of an evil historical character and seeing a person with many human qualities, but making what we know from our perspective are the wrong choices, choices that lead down the path of evil. For example, Mao can be seen sympathetically in his youth, but ultimately he will become a dictator whose actions will kill millions.

When we're dealing with a prequel, we know the future, so this means we're in a different kind of story telling world. We know the character arc. So the journey is going to be different for the audience.

Once Lucas decided to take this path, he had to pull off two very difficult things. He has to make Anakin likable, and at the same time he has to make his descent into the dark side believable. Two difficult goals that work against each other. Having us get to know Anakin as a child is kind of an unsurprising choice. Bonding with Darth Vader isn't going to be easy. It helps that we are a little sympathetic to Darth at the end of Return, but what better way to bond with him then to meet with him as a child. And it was also a way to introduce us to the idea that the seeds of his destruction are already there, even as a boy.

In the second prequel, it's natural that the love story is developed. He needs to set up the birth of Luke and Leia, but also, we know that the only force in the universe strong enough to drive a true hero to the dark side is love. The plot is poorly executed, Portman is awful in this, and the story wanders, but they did have the right idea.

Finally, in the third prequel we have the birth of Vader. This is where the transformation from good hero to evil villain occurs, and such a transformation must be gradual and believable. For it to work, we must really feel the struggle within Anakin. The plot here is slightly convenient, but I think overall it succeeds in making us feel the struggle. We see his loyalty and affection for Obi Wan, but also his jealousy. We see his growing power and the ambition that feeds it and is fed by it. We see him struggling with concepts of what exactly is good and evil, and he understands that it's not always clear. This is contrasted to the original Star Wars, where there is simply the good and the dark side, and I think that's appropriate, as the film has matured.

In the end, the film more or less achieves its objective. It gives us, in the final sequences, an Anakin who we still care for and sympathize with, but one who has tragically lost himself to evil. It works because we see ourselves in it. We know that under the right circumstances, who knows what we are capable of, or what we could become. And Darth Vader is born.

The problems with the sequels is that in the attempt to have more mature concepts of good and evil, they became too complicated. There should have been ways to show that good and evil are complicated without making the plot so difficult to follow. Palpatine is brilliantly played, and the Palpatine/Anakin relationship, which is critical to the hero's descent to evil, is well done. Palpatine understands the struggle within Anakin, and he carefully seduces the young man by exploiting his weaknesses.

The only problem is that sometimes it's a little hard to understand Palpatine's motives and the risks he takes. It's clear the whole abduction of Palpatine was staged by him as part of a complicated scheme, but as he comes so close to dying in it, it doesn't seem logical. Is the seduction of Anakin to the dark side really that important that he risks everything? It doesn't seem to make sense, unless we accept the father/son motive, and that's hard to buy as a motivator for one on the dark side. Later on, in Return, he's willing to give up Anakin for Luke without any emotional consideration. The best we can do to explain this stuff is that evil can be illogical.

The most annoying part of the film, frankly, are the Jedi. Part of this is that Lucas couldn't help bringing his modern, post 9/11 political views into the plot. When Obi complains about that a Sith lord deals in absolutes, it strikes me that it's completely the opposite. It's been clear all along that the Jedi are rigid and inflexible in every way, both philosophically and in their rules. For good or bad, they are the ones who deal in absolutes, not the Sith. The Sith do whatever it takes to get what they want. No absolutes. That line was written with George Bush in mind. Another reason politics should be kept out of movies, especially movies that take place in a galaxy far, far away.

Killing the child Jedi was absolutely necessary in this story. These prequels are meant to be a more mature Star Wars, and this act solidifies Anakin's descent to evil. Palpatine knows this is the act that will bring Anakin once and for all over the line. and unlike killing his wife, it is a rational act. If the only way to save Amidila is to allow Palpatine to mentor him, he becomes an ally. Once he does, he sees that the Jedi will unite to destroy him. Those children will one day be sent against him. And once this evil is committed, he is changed. He is now capable of killing his wife in a jealous rage.

Carson's analysis of the mechanics of the story is spot on, generally. Addressing those issues in the plot would have made these stories a lot stronger. It's important to keep in mind that there are other things going on in the movie that are entertaining people and though not important in terms of story line, are still critical. This is a film, not a novel. It's very visual. People that go to see Star Wars want to see space fights and explosions and battles. Sometimes plot makes sacrifices to these needs. Even the need to insert humor into the script can subtract from plot.

These stories disappointed on many levels. But considering the challenges involved with a prequel trilogy, they were fairly successful in doing what they set out to do.
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irish eyes
Posted: February 20th, 2012, 9:14pm Report to Moderator
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Lucas is a freaking money grabbing WHORE!....Enough already with Star Wars.... 4,5,6 brilliant when they first came out.... 1,2,3 the most wooden actors I have ever seen including Yoda!
Then remastered... then dvd`s, blu rays, extended editions and now 3D....

SPOILER ALERT!

Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker`s father...

JOKE ALERT!

How did Darth Vader know what Luke Skywalker got him for christmas..... He felt his presents..


Mark


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stevie
Posted: February 20th, 2012, 9:50pm Report to Moderator
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Good theme for the next 7WC if its on - REWRITE THIS HOW IT SHOULD'VE BEEN DONE!!



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CoopBazinga
Posted: February 20th, 2012, 10:19pm Report to Moderator
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I remember coming away very disappointed when first seeing Phantom Menace at the cinema but I think that was also down to the bad reviews it had at the time, I couldn't help but join the hate mob. As time as gone though, it has grown on me and certainly doesn't deserve all the slack it got, I've always thought Clones was the worst of the three.

I just think that it was going to be near on impossible for George Lucas or anybody to create the magic of the first trilogy but for what they were trying to show, which is Anakin's downfall, I thought they did a solid job.


Quoted from Andrew


1) Empire
2) A New Hope
3) Revenge
4) Attack
5) Phantom
6) Return




I agree with these standings if you swapped Attack and Return around.


Quoted from stevie
Good theme for the next 7WC if its on - REWRITE THIS HOW IT SHOULD'VE BEEN DONE!!


That would be fun!
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Reef Dreamer
Posted: February 21st, 2012, 5:55am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from jwent6688
You've probably all seen it, but just in case there's those who haven't... The best movie review in the history of movie reviews, IMO...



Simply perfect, great review.

A new Hope is one of my favourite films. The empire carried this on and despite the weaknesses i even liked Return.

Personally, i think CGI has a lot to answer for...as well as weak scripts


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kingcooky555
Posted: February 21st, 2012, 8:03am Report to Moderator
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I thought the prequels got better as it moved on. Although they are still a notch below from the originals.

The problem with the Phantom Menace is that the kid scenes feels so forced. The Pod Racing is one glaring example. It's so obvious Lucas was going for marketability (i.e. selling Pod racing video games, action figures, etc.).

What disappointed me was that at this point in his career Lucas had enough money to do whatever he wants and really taken this to another level like Nolan's Batman. Instead, he copped out and when kiddie porn on all the adults who grew up to the original masterpiece. But business is business and I'm sure he made bank on the prequels regardless of the critics and my ranting.

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leitskev
Posted: February 21st, 2012, 8:26am Report to Moderator
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The pod racing did come close to completely ruining that movie.

I think people's expectations were also impossible to reach with this trilogy. Many people that had seen Stars Wars as kids were now adults, and had distorted memories of the original experience. And the special effects that impressed us in 1977 would not impress in the 21st century.

People take Star Wars way too seriously, which was part of its magic, but is part of the problem. It creates demands that no movie maker could meet. The universe within that galaxy far, far away has grown a level of reality that makes movie "fun" difficult.

I mean, Yoda in a sword fight? Come on, it's puppet, give it a good kick!
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: February 21st, 2012, 9:36am Report to Moderator
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Agreed Kingcooky.

I sometimes wonder if things would have been better if he had waited till Lord of the Rings came out. That showed you can tell a massively successful fantasy story without having to make it childish.

Kev...interesting post with lots of interesting ideas.

This is the review Kev is talking about, for everyone else.

http://scriptshadow.blogspot.com/2011/09/phantom-menace-star-wars-week.html

For me there's a key problem with Phantom Menace in particular, but with all of them to some degree.

You call them more mature, but their style is far more infantile than the originals (Return of the Jedi was moving towards a similar vein).

The problem is that the entire premise is very adult. There's the political manipulation which is actually quite clever, and then there's the key point that you raise which is about how this guy turns to evil.

Both of these are dark, deep themes and yet the style of the film is very childish. It simply doesn't and can't gel.

Those who say it's a kids films are sort of correct, but the story is a complicated political thriller (which doesn't work at any point). There is no way the story is suitable for a kids film. It's more like a Syriana type story...it's about corruption, bureaucracy, manipulation, double dealing.

Some minor points for discussion...it's not love that turns him to the Dark Side...but fear of losing the people he loves. He wants the secret of immortality to prevent anyone he loves from ever dying again.

As for Palpatine's motivation...this is a problem with the films I mentioned before...they can only be understood if you've read the books that came out preceding them.

Andrew says the books lack legitimacy, which is an interesting viewpoint, the problem is Lucas has created an entire chronology behind the scenes and these stories were written from a frame of mind that seemed to expect people to know everything that has gone on outside the films.

It's called the Revenge of the Sith because the Sith used to rule the Galaxy and then were eradicated by the Jedi. They went into hiding...there was just one Master and one Apprentice at any time..the Apprentice is supposed to develop to a point he can take out the Master...if he fails the Master gets another Apprentice. So it goes from Darth Maul (who fails) to Count Dooku (Darth Tyranus, who fails) to Anakin...then to Luke...who overcomes the Dark Side by refusing to kill Darth Vader.

There was no threat to Palpatine when he's abducted because the people who have abducted him are working for him, they just don't know it. Count Dooku is the Emperor's Apprentice and General Grievous is Count Dooku's Apprentice.
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: February 21st, 2012, 9:55am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from leitskev
The pod racing did come close to completely ruining that movie.

I think people's expectations were also impossible to reach with this trilogy. Many people that had seen Stars Wars as kids were now adults, and had distorted memories of the original experience. And the special effects that impressed us in 1977 would not impress in the 21st century.

People take Star Wars way too seriously, which was part of its magic, but is part of the problem. It creates demands that no movie maker could meet. The universe within that galaxy far, far away has grown a level of reality that makes movie "fun" difficult.

I mean, Yoda in a sword fight? Come on, it's puppet, give it a good kick!


I agree to an extent.

There's not much in the film that couldn't have been fixed in the writing stage. If GL had posted it on here, it would have ended up a better film!

Like Carson says in the review you mentioned..there isn't a single scene that works. It's not the worst film ever, but it's probably the worst script. Not one scene is logical and not one character works.

Really, you can't excuse that in this instance. Lucas can set his own deadlines, can hire multiple people to look at the script. It should have been ready before he started filming.

Maybe it would have still been disappointing, but it should have made sense at the bare minimum.

For whatever reason, Lucas and Spielberg both tend to put very childish, very unrealistic sequences in their films now. They never used to. They have devolved as filmmakers.

Jaws was a kids film, but it's one of the scariest thrillers ever made. If Spielberg made it now it would be full of slapstick comedy.

People do take Star Wars too seriously though, definitely.

I find it fascinating though. I want to one day start my own shared Universe and have numerous people creating content for it.

None of the individual novels are brilliant compared to the best of Sci Fi, but the fact that it's one cohesive story that goes on for thousands of years and you can follow a minor character from his birth all the way to his death is quite amazing.

It's got this weird thing that it's throwaway literature but dwarfs anything else in scope.
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leitskev
Posted: February 21st, 2012, 10:19am Report to Moderator
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True, in some ways the story is childish, in terms of presentation, and adult, in terms of the political complexity. But what I meant by a maturation of Star Wars is that for the first time we watch good and innocent evolve into evil. That does not happen in the first trilogy. There is the attempted temptation of Luke, but it never comes close to succeeding, there is never even a moment of doubt that Luke will remain pure.

Far more interesting, and more mature, is the notion of someone good and heroic slowly succumbing to the dark side, and not because of greed, or even power lust(though that's a factor), but ultimately because he wants to protect those he loves. That's difficult to do in film, and I'm not sure how many good examples of it there are. All the comes to mind for me at the moment is Michael Corleone.

We basically agree on many points here. It's difficult to mesh the childish style that Star Wars demands, with humor laced action, CGI, puppets, ect., with a mature exposition of a complicated world, along with a sophisticated portrayal of the descent from good to evil. That is the thrust of my point, that Lucas had a rather impossible challenge, and all in all did a fairly decent job.

Regarding Palatine, I'm not sure it passes the logic test. Why would a Master want to develop apprentices powerful enough to take him out? Why would he encourage that? That seems rather...idealistic. Not very selfish. Not very...dark.

Palatine's abduction: if the people are working for him, but don't know it...then they are a threat. And even if most of them knew it, we're talking about narrow escapes on a ship going down. It doesn't make a lick of sense.

And yet I accept the movie for what it is. I don't take it very seriously. It's just serious enough that we care about the characters, and just serious enough to cause us to care about the characters to a degree. And it still maintains the swashbuckling childish fun we expect.

A final thought on the maturity of the trilogy. Our hero butchers the Jedi kids formerly under his protection. It doesn't get more adult than that. And while people criticize this scene, I think it is absolutely necessary to make Anakin's descent to the dark side believable. It's a logical step in the evolution. Without it, I can't buy into Anakin killing his wife. In fact, I will dare to call this scene brilliant and bold, and handled with the right touch.

How often does a movie incite a crowd to stand up in cheer? That happened in theaters all across the world when the mask of vader is placed on Anakin at the end. For all the imperfections of the series, any film that can achieve that becomes instantly historical. It had to have done something right. And for the most part, it was an entertaining ride.
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leitskev
Posted: February 21st, 2012, 10:25am Report to Moderator
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Absolutely, it's a crowning achievement that he created a universe that people buy into.

I am certainly not the great Lucas defender by any means. Maybe it worked ok for me because I was not a fanatical fan of it, so my expectations were less.

It can be done, as you pointed out, with Lord of the Rings. Those films managed to please the hard core Tolkien people and the virgin audience. It's just hard to do.
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: February 21st, 2012, 10:56am Report to Moderator
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I agree about killing the Jedi Children. I think people have a problem with it, not because of the scene in itself, but the fact that they didn't really buy his descent as it was too sudden. The descent was based on the fact he wanted Darth Plagueis secret of immortality (Palpatine's master) to save Amidala...but he'd still dobbed him in just before. He got Mace Windu killed by accident, but that's all that had changed. I think for a lot of people it simply felt off that he would devolve to that level within such a short time.

I totally disagree about the Vader scene!

Not in the UK...the audience was rolling on the floor in fits of laughter at the Frankenstein imitation and the legendary and much parodied "Nooooooooo".

The worst scene in the whole prequel trilogy in my opinion. Hilarious stuff. Don't know how they got such a simple thing so, so wrong.

The two Sith thing goes way back. This is what I mean about how they make no sense without knowledge of the "Extended Universe"...and that shouldn't happen in a film.

To cut a (very) long story short, the problem the Dark Side always has is that they all continually betray each other, so they could never take over permanently...or worse a group of weaker Dark Siders would unite and rule as a committee, holding back the most powerful Sith from their destiny.

A guy called Darth Bane comes along and creates a new Sith Order where there's a Master to control and an Apprentice to aspire. It means that the power is always in one persons hands and there's no infighting going on...but the allegiance is essentially to the Dark Side of the Force..which is incredibly powerful but ultimately corrupting physically...so you need someone to carry on the tradition, even if it means they will eventually destroy you.

They are Sith and want the Sith to rule the Galaxy over their sworn enemy, the Jedi. They will still try and defeat the Apprentice...the Apprentice has to prove he's strong enough....and weak ones are simply replaced.

If they didn't have an Apprenticer then the Dark Side could lose in the event of their death, but the other side of it is that they are training their potential killer.

It's part of the way the story has changed...as you yourself have mentioned. The story has expanded to such a level that it's become morally relativistic. The bad guys aren't that bad, and the good guys aren't that good.

They are more like forces of nature than good and evil. Both will always exist.

The idea that it's a birth right, not just a religion, has also changed things...because kids are born with power but not necessarily in ideal circumstances.

It sort of makes it more interesting, but more pointless at the same time as it is just a reflection of life now, wheras originally it was quite clear cut about the lines between Good and Evil.
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