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I got a chance to see the movie. First off, congratulations on getting something produced and distributed.
I've also read the original script. You already know my feelings about the decision to add the robbery scene. I felt the discovery of the money was one of the script's biggest twists. The director chose to give that information away in the trailer as well as up front in the movie itself. I kind of get that since it's really the premise of the movie.
The biggest problems I think were the structure and the length. At just one hour, I think we spend too much of the movie with the villains before the main characters are even brought into it. Also, I didn't think it was made clear exactly who the main character was. The script was much clearer on these issues.
While I'm on the subject of the script, I recall the script having a lot more complications in it. The situations were more dynamic and it progressed more logically. As I watched, I kept wondering why the film was so lost when they had much stronger source material.
I understand about the need to fill time. Personally, I would have tried to arrange an additional shooting day. Maybe he did. I certainly understand the difficulty in getting cast and crew together for a shoot.
I understand why the actors were allowed to improvise lines, given their inexperience. This raises the question, though, of just why the director didn't hire actual actors. As I understand it, he's an actor himself. Surely he knows other actors. Sometimes the improvisation worked, other times not so well. That said, I think the actors worked really well overall, the main villain and one of the campers in particular.
There were a couple of places where I felt the editing caused confusion about what was going on, but otherwise it was pretty easy to follow.
Personally, I didn't like the addition of the subtitle, The Root Of All Evil. Or the quote at the beginning. I especially hated the line, "Money. It's evil. It's the whole reason we're being hunted like animals." That line is insanely on the nose.
Everything above said, I don't want to come off as purely negative because I thought it showed a lot of potential. I actually think Timothy has a pretty good screen presence and a unique voice. I'm wondering if he made any shorts before this, because I really think a director probably should practice with some shorts before tackling a feature. Some of the directorial choices were interesting. The backwards thing for example.
As far as issues with the woodland setting, the short film I'm currently working on takes place almost entirely in the woods, so I can sympathize with the shooting conditions. I won't get into the particulars because I don't want to hijack the thread. Let's just say I understand the issues that come with shooting in the woods.
A word about profanity: I personally think the whole concept of profanity is superstition. I find the idea that a word like fuck can somehow bring a curse upon someone to be absurd. I also think people who consider shit a swear word while crap is okay are raging hypocrites. Basically, profanity is superstition on par with the belief that you'll have seven years bad luck if you walk under a ladder. It's silly superstition. That said, there is such a thing as redundancy. Some words seem to fly by with little notice while others grow old quickly. This seems true whether it's "power words" or not. The constant use of the same words wore thin and reached the point of sounding forced.
Overall, I think it was a really good effort. Better than I could do. I know it was a lot of work and I can appreciate the effort.
Had fun watching, which is the important thing. My motto is, "Above all, entertain." I wish you and the people involved the very best with its success.
Of course I watched the film. For the most part, I agree with everyone has said thus far, so I won't rehash anything. I, too, had the 'advantage' of reading the script prior to viewing the movie. With the wisdom of hindsight, I believe that the film made more sense because I was familiar with the screenplay.
On a funny note, in the interview with the director on SimplyRadio he mentioned the difficulty filming in the woods, particularly dealing with the sounds of breaking leaves and branches. I could not help but fixate on the sounds in those chase scenes. Didn't take away from my enjoyment of the film.
As for the production values. I recently re-watched "The Evil Dead". The production values and uneven acting are pretty much the same taking into consideration the leaps in technology over the intervening years.
Lastly, I paid to watch an action, horror, thriller film. The film delivered that. I was entertained. If you step into this film expecting "Citizen Kane", of course you are going to be disappointed. If you are looking to be entertained with blood, bullets and boobs, this is it. You may want to center yourself with watching an early Rodriguez or Rami film to keep the genre in perspective.
The change from script to film was a bit of a shock for my co-writer, but I'm sort of used to it by now. It's how it goes sometimes.
I appreciate both of you watching and commenting.
As far as going back to re-shoot goes, Timothy got Lyme disease from being out in the woods shooting this and he was sick for a month. Once he recuperated, he moved out to L.A. This was shot in NC so going back to get more shots was not possible.
Could he have used actor friends? Some are actor friends. The black guy Robert Covington is pretty good IMO. He is also in Blackout. The other people that are not real actors did good for not being experienced. As mentioned before, they tried to follow the script, but the inexperienced actors had a hard time making their lines seem natural, but even worse was that they were not good at reacting to the other actors. That's why they decided to let them do their own thing.
Breanne, you and I have both directed/produced shorts so for me, and I'm thinking you too, it's easy to see why things might be the way they are. You have to work with what you have at that moment.
We have Blackout coming out in late June or early July. I think that one actually stayed closer to the script, but they also had locations that were easily controlled. Things will still be different in that one too compared to the script. For one thing, there's a scene where the two main characters dispose of a body. They are stopped by a white supremacist cop named Drew White and one characters makes up a lie about them going to a civil war reenactment event. The cop asks which side they will be reenacting on and the guy says confederate. Well, in the film the guy that plays that character is Robert Covington... So you can see, how things get changed "wildly" sometimes. Personally, I would have had a lot of fun with that scene if I was the director.
I thank both of you for watching and your kind comments. This was an extremely low budget film that was never intended to get distribution, but here we are. Like someone on FB told me, move on, onward and upward. I like that. We have Blackout next and Arterial Motives or whatever the title will be around Halloween. Next is my 7WC Dead Ringer. The sequel to AM, I failed miserably, btw. That's how it goes. We do our best, but sometimes that's not good enough.
Breanne, you and I have both directed/produced shorts so for me, and I'm thinking you too, it's easy to see why things might be the way they are. You have to work with what you have at that moment.
Oh yeah. Most people have no idea how movies are really put together. Watching the special features doesn't come close to telling the whole story. Most don't know the pain of having to choose whether or not to cut a great shot just because you can't match the action to a previous shot. Or the sunlight changing the lighting between shots. Or the work that goes into fixing a scene when a train or a plane or a leaf blower is heard in the distance. Sometimes you have to make tough decisions or accept a difficult compromise.
And we're not talking about playing around, we're talking about a project someone has put money into. Then you have to endure critics who treat you as though you must have been oblivious to such easy fixes. It's tough to put yourself out there like that. Pat yourself on the back for me for having the courage.
I finally caught this the other day. For a low budget I thought they did good. I wished this could have been a little longer. It just ended too quick for my taste. It was good to see a lot happen early on. Though... I have to admit... I didn't recognize any of the actors, so I assume most were relatively new? If so, I thought their performances were creditable. This was really easy to follow.
Yeah, the crew was basically non actors. There's a lot to be desired with this film, but I know why things happened the way they did. I feel confident Blackout will be better. I do appreciate you watching and giving it some kind words.
The producer and I have sort of formed a partnership and we now have several projects under way. It's not big Hollywood studio stuff, but we're working well together and I think the films will improve as we go along.
Got round to seeing Finder Keepers just last night.
Now I want you to know that I'm a fan Pia and, having read the script, I like what you did. It's well written. Nice pace and most of the dialogue works. You've got skills. I need you to know that, because from here it get's... bumpy.
Never let this Director NEAR your work again!
I believe you have Blackout with him next. After that moment, part ways. This Timothy has NO IDEA how to make movies. Seems like a nice enough guy- I saw a You Tube vid with him organizing a charity event- But philanthropy should in no way give him carte blanche to mutilate a writer's script.
I can accept that maybe he had to ad-lib some parts of the script due to the inexperience of the actors... but to throw out 95% of your dialogue?
That is UNACCEPTABLE. This is what they have auditions, rehearsal and table reads for. Before shooting, he should have had you in a room with the actors working the dialogue to fit. That way the movie wouldn't ended up with the unholy mess of screeching and repetition that passed for dialogue.
I appreciate what you've said and I think you've been very gracious. I hope (and expect) Blackout to go better what with the professional actors, but I fear you may run into the same trouble. Because the main problem with Finders is not the dialogue. Or the non-actors--
--It's the fault of a Director who is UTTERLY CLUELESS.
To my mind, one of the main tasks of a Director (among a lot of other things) is the ability to make good decisions. That, for me, trumps almost everything else. It is the difference between Boba-Fett and Jar-Jar Binks. The Director will be who shapes the narrative. Who determines the pace. Who makes stylistic choices. Who understands the nuances/subtext behind the theme. Who maintains a tonal balance throughout.
Timothy FAILED on EVERY ONE of these tasks. On EVERY LEVEL!
But the reason he deserves this vitriolic critique is that you, as the writer, were undermined and marginalized by a lot of what he did. And the talent that you have does not deserve that. No matter how gracious you are in accepting it.
His transgressions began with TONE. The opening robbery was frankly the decision making of a Director who HAS NO IDEA what tone even is. All he wanted to do was show off this stylistic wizardry at the expense of the finished product. It is every bit the action of Director who cares more for his vanity-project show reel than the final product.
Because Tonally, that is a poor-man's GUY RITCHIE movie. It has NO PLACE in this movie. It is totally at odds with the tense thriller that lies in the script. That's before even going into how badly it was filmed. How unnecessary the violence was. How ludicrous the swearing became. How pointless the effects and embellishments were.
It was the actions of someone who has no idea that there should cohesive tone throughout. At best, it was self-indulgent. At worst, it was stupid. If he couldn't see why that shouldn't have been in the movie, he has no business making movies.
Including that scene, at the expense of others, was part of what screwed up both the narrative balance and the pace. In the end, by the time Sweary Redneck #1 and #2 attack, we are so far into the movie that it's effectively the final act. What you end up with is almost NO SECOND ACT. We set-up the characters. The Second act consists pretty much of Sierra finding the bag. Then the attack. There's no ebb and flow. No light and dark. Just ridiculous UNSCRIPTED moments around the campfire where characters I LIKED in the script, become sex-crazed douchebags in the Ad-libs.
But if only the PACE was the worst offender. No. Where Timothy really drops the ball (and I hope to god it was through ignorance, because if not he's UNBELIEVABLY disrespectful of both you, the writer and the material) is THEME!
It's CALLED the ROOT OF ALL EVIL. It starts off with the Hitchhiker who has nothing ignored by the kids who have everything. What part wasn't clear to Timothy?
What he did was devolve the commentary of your script- Money corrupts- into a meaningless, violent hack-and-slash. He totally missed the point of how money- And by extension GREED- can corrupt the innocent mind. He almost entirely stripped away THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE SCRIPT- Namely that the ensemble of good-guy characters need to TURN ON EACH OTHER!
That's the ROOT OF ALL EVIL. Sierra (in the script) buries the money. She ends up in a violent tussle with her former friends. This is INTEGRAL TO THE THEME!
And I know you know this, Pia. I'm just astounded (and a little disgusted) that the so-called Director missed it. Because, for me, THEME is the absolute most important part of a script. It is the linch-pin, the life blood and the catalyst for EVERYTHING that happens. Without it, stories are lifeless. They MUST be held together by a theme.
Your script had a CLEAR theme. The movie had NONE. That is the fault of the Director. What could have been an intriguing reflection of the money-obsessed culture in which we live, was denigrated into a exploitative and mindless slasher.
And I hope you don't think this is anything against you. You, and your work, entirely deserve better. Hopefully that will come when you build relationships with better Directors. To my mind, Timothy is a producer. His sole contribution to the movie industry should be to finance movies just as he organizes charity functions.
He is no Director. And on this basis so far, he never will be.
I hope Blackout fares better. And I wish you luck with future projects.
Now I want you to know that I'm a fan Pia and, having read the script, I like what you did. It's well written. Nice pace and most of the dialogue works. You've got skills. I need you to know that, because from here it get's... bumpy.
Well, Timothy would probably be the first to tell you he is no director and this was his first attempt. With the vampire sequel that had a Hollywood studio’s interest, he was told by them that they did NOT want him to direct.
I believe you have Blackout with him next. After that moment, part ways. This Timothy has NO IDEA how to make movies. Seems like a nice enough guy- I saw a You Tube vid with him organizing a charity event- But philanthropy should in no way give him carte blanche to mutilate a writer's script.
He’s just an actor/producer in Blackout. Someone else directed that one. I feel pretty confident it will be better.
Part ways? Hm. Awhile back I posted a question here at SS, would the members here let their script be produced as a low/no budget film or hold out for that elusive studio sale? Most people said they would let their scripts be produced low budget. That was my thinking too, so, here I am. Playing in the low/no budget arena. After Blackout, there are two more coming. If things don’t improve, I imagine, I’ll just get frustrated and attempt to make my own film. If for no other reason than to see a film that actually resembles what I wrote.
I can accept that maybe he had to ad-lib some parts of the script due to the inexperience of the actors... but to throw out 95% of your dialogue?
That is UNACCEPTABLE. This is what they have auditions, rehearsal and table reads for. Before shooting, he should have had you in a room with the actors working the dialogue to fit. That way the movie wouldn't ended up with the unholy mess of screeching and repetition that passed for dialogue.
I agree with you, but I also understand a little on how this might have happened. The film was shot in NC. I held auditions for this film when I was going to shoot it here where I live, North Central Florida. One thing I learned is that unless you are in or near a bigger city, it is VERY hard to find actors. Especially for such a low budget film. Not saying it is an excuse, just that I know it can be hard to find actors willing to spend 8 consecutive days in the woods shooting a film and not get paid.
I hope (and expect) Blackout to go better what with the professional actors, but I fear you may run into the same trouble. Because the main problem with Finders is not the dialogue. Or the non-actors. It's the fault of a Director who is UTTERLY CLUELESS.
Matt Hacker is the director for Blackout. I’ve been told he was being tedious and taking a million shots of everything. That gives me hope it will be better. I am a little concerned about this though. Not just with these guys, but I see it quite often with younger guys. They worry endlessly about how things look. It has to look AWESOME. They want to awe us with cool shots and amazing cinematography, but they forget to properly tell the story. The story is why people go to the movies. Not just the visual experience, except for Avatar maybe.
To my mind, one of the main tasks of a Director (among a lot of other things) is the ability to make good decisions. That, for me, trumps almost everything else. It is the difference between Boba-Fett and Jar-Jar Binks. The Director will be who shapes the narrative. Who determines the pace. Who makes stylistic choices. Who understands the nuances/subtext behind the theme. Who maintains a tonal balance throughout.
Timothy FAILED on EVERY ONE of these tasks. On EVERY LEVEL!
I have kind of decided to quit trying to make my own films, but I can almost see me making another attempt, just to prove what you just said.
But the reason he deserves this vitriolic critique is that you, as the writer, were undermined and marginalized by a lot of what he did. And the talent that you have does not deserve that. No matter how gracious you are in accepting it.
I’m old and I’ve been around awhile. I’ve seen my scripts turned into films many times with vastly varying results in quality. I’m sort of used to it and as soon as I saw the poker scene, I knew this film would vary wildly from the script. My co-writer was rather shocked at the result, but I imagine he too, will learn that once the script heads into production, you never know what’s going to happen to it.
His transgressions began with TONE. The opening robbery was frankly the decision making of a Director who HAS NO IDEA what tone even is. All he wanted to do was show off this stylistic wizardry at the expense of the finished product. It is every bit the action of Director who cares more for his vanity-project show reel than the final product.
Again, I see that with quite a few younger filmmakers.
Because Tonally, that is a poor-man's GUY RITCHIE movie. It has NO PLACE in this movie. It is totally at odds with the tense thriller that lies in the script. That's before even going into how badly it was filmed. How unnecessary the violence was. How ludicrous the swearing became. How pointless the effects and embellishments were.
It was the actions of someone who has no idea that there should cohesive tone throughout. At best, it was self-indulgent. At worst, it was stupid. If he couldn't see why that shouldn't have been in the movie, he has no business making movies.
It wasn’t just the tone, IMHO. The whole idea for us writers was that everyone in this script, the hunters, the campers, the hitchhiker, they all find the money, but no one gets to keep it. There did not have to be an explanation of where the money came from. It was all about greed and what that can do to people. So, right there from the start, it had the wrong tone and theme.
Including that scene, at the expense of others, was part of what screwed up both the narrative balance and the pace. In the end, by the time Sweary Redneck #1 and #2 attack, we are so far into the movie that it's effectively the final act. What you end up with is almost NO SECOND ACT. We set-up the characters. The Second act consists pretty much of Sierra finding the bag. Then the attack. There's no ebb and flow. No light and dark. Just ridiculous UNSCRIPTED moments around the campfire where characters I LIKED in the script, become sex-crazed douchebags in the Ad-libs.
Agreed. There were a couple of lines in there I wish I could take credit for though.
But if only the PACE was the worst offender. No. Where Timothy really drops the ball (and I hope to god it was through ignorance, because if not he's UNBELIEVABLY disrespectful of both you, the writer and the material) is THEME!
It's CALLED the ROOT OF ALL EVIL. It starts off with the Hitchhiker who has nothing ignored by the kids who have everything. What part wasn't clear to Timothy?
What he did was devolve the commentary of your script- Money corrupts- into a meaningless, violent hack-and-slash. He totally missed the point of how money- And by extension GREED- can corrupt the innocent mind. He almost entirely stripped away THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE SCRIPT- Namely that the ensemble of good-guy characters need to TURN ON EACH OTHER!
That's the ROOT OF ALL EVIL. Sierra (in the script) buries the money. She ends up in a violent tussle with her former friends. This is INTEGRAL TO THE THEME!
And I know you know this, Pia. I'm just astounded (and a little disgusted) that the so-called Director missed it. Because, for me, THEME is the absolute most important part of a script. It is the linch-pin, the life blood and the catalyst for EVERYTHING that happens. Without it, stories are lifeless. They MUST be held together by a theme.
Your script had a CLEAR theme. The movie had NONE. That is the fault of the Director. What could have been an intriguing reflection of the money-obsessed culture in which we live, was denigrated into a exploitative and mindless slasher.
And I hope you don't think this is anything against you. You, and your work, entirely deserve better. Hopefully that will come when you build relationships with better Directors. To my mind, Timothy is a producer. His sole contribution to the movie industry should be to finance movies just as he organizes charity functions.
He is no Director. And on this basis so far, he never will be.
I hope Blackout fares better. And I wish you luck with future projects.
I agree and thank you! Like I’ve said, I feel confident Blackout will be better. Timothy might not be a great director, but he can make things happen. I’ve told him I see a bigger future for him as a producer than anything else. We get along well and have other films coming up. We’ll see how they turnout. Hopefully, we’ll both learn a thing or two along the way.