Quoted from Dreamscale You may be correct, Bert, but I'm still pretty clueless here and maybe I missed something.

I have not seen the remake, and I am in no rush to do so, as I deplore remakes that exist only because people are too lazy to read subtitles.  (I am looking at you, "Let Me In")

Some of the specific details you mention are indeed unlikely -- but the tale is more of an allegory around the themes (your favorite word!) of honor and family -- and in a way that are largely unfamiliar to an American audience.

In the Chan-wook Park version, which I adore, the beauty is in the telling.  Lots of Asian cinema tells incredible, impossible stories, but it is a different world over there, and they tell their stories in a different way.

That is, at least in part, why I expected an "Americanized" version to suck.  Sounds like it does.  

SPOILERS FOR VARIOUS (OLDER) MOVIES...

I agree with Bert's take that Asian cinema often handles allegory differently, and a bit more openly, but still, c'mon now. Not plausible? Movies with much, much more impossibly orchestrated antagonist plots include The Dark Knight, Die Hard 3, Matchstick Men, Lucky Number Slevin, Perfect Stranger, The Game…

Movies are almost never realistic or plausible if you choose to look at them objectively. Oldboy is far from an unusual offender. Lethal Weapon 2 can tell us that NOT ONLY does the Getz case that they get reassigned to happen to yield a key clue to the main case, but ALSO that the villain in that case happens to be the one who killed Riggs' wife years ago, for gosh sakes.

I think the BIG difference in the movies you quoted, Chris, is the tone, or what I call "playing for reals" vs. "just go with it...it's a fricking movie" mentality.

We all see and eal with plot contrivances all the time, but these are so far playing for reals, that this kid just can't play, period.

You or anyone can say all they want that Oldboy is all about allegory and themes, but it's so plodding and heavy, that...for me, at least...the end all twist is supposed to hit you as hard as it hits old Joe Doucett.

But, as said, I cannot take anything that lead up to that twist payoff because it's downright ludicrous in so so many ways.

Interesting as always how vastly differently 2 or 10 peeps can see a movie and leave feeling completely differently.

Havn't seen the remake. Just seen the orignial lastnight on netflix. Whoa, twisted shit. I liked it.

I dont mind reading subs as long as the story kept my attention. That, it most surely did.

Surprised I havn't picked up on it until just now. Now I'm gonna have to watch the remake just to see if it holds up. They set a high bar.

Quoted from Dreamscale I think the BIG difference in the movies you quoted, Chris, is the tone, or what I call "playing for reals" vs. "just go with it...it's a fricking movie" mentality.

...Saw, Skyfall, The Illusionist, Fracture, Shutter Island, The Wicker Man (Cage), Se7en, Arlington Road, North by Northwest…

I don't mean to suggest that any allegorical elements excuse plot holes, by the way. It's totally reasonable that you find them problematic. I just think it's a fairly standard level of implausibility considered in the context of film in general, so I was surprised to see it mentioned specifically.

Quoted from bert Lots of Asian cinema tells incredible, impossible stories, but it is a different world over there, and they tell their stories in a different way. That is, at least in part, why I expected an "Americanized" version to suck.  Sounds like it does.

Exactly my thoughts. I think the original is a great film. It has blemishes, imo. But its still great. But can anyone honestly name any original American crime-thriller in recent history that came this close in terms of its brilliance? And no, the Departed doesn't count because it's a knockoff of Infernal Affairs, a much better movie, imo. I can't get my head wrapped around the idea that Scorsese, out of all the great movies he's made, wins an Oscar for a knockoff.

Anyway, I would say the same about I saw the devil and Chaser. Fantastic films.

-J.S.

Quoted from J.S. Exactly my thoughts. I think the original is a great film. It has blemishes, imo. But its still great. But can anyone honestly name any original American crime-thriller in recent history that came this close in terms of its brilliance? And no, the Departed doesn't count because it's a knockoff of Infernal Affairs, a much better movie, imo. I can't get my head wrapped around the idea that Scorsese, out of all the great movies he's made, wins an Oscar for a knockoff. Anyway, I would say the same about I saw the devil and Chaser. Fantastic films. -J.S.

This statement is very interesting. The genre seems to take a timeout with originals. I was astonished how many of the best 90's ones till now are adapted or remakes. I guess that's what you call recent, J.S., not? 90's, 00's, 10's?

I haven't seen the movie you're talking about here, I guess. But "brilliant"... I think, this has to be proven in a larger time frame given to movies. So, how could recent ones compete now...

What about the Hannibal Lector stuff;
Collateral

Concerning crime and a "bit" thriller, I think, Denzel Washington is a big deal in these times. Especially I like Training Day and John Q. For me these films have solid to good plays and of course Denzel Washington makes them great. These films will be called brilliant, imo- but later.


Other "partly good" originals which come to my mind would be We owe the night and yes, I like Crash, even without knowing the plot anymore, I remember there was a great intensity on focus in every scene, which felt unique, different. But, to say it clear, both films are not as good to call them great anytime and in anyway. So, they fall apart and make J.S. post understandable and proven for me. There really seem  to be not many "great" original stuffs in case of quantity in this genre in the last years.

I'm definitely interested to hear some other calls??? What's with Indi-productions for example...

Very interesting statement J.S. concerning the negative look on adaptations with regard to the true quality of movies like American Psycho etc. etc. ...

Quoted from J.S. Exactly my thoughts. I think the original is a great film. It has blemishes, imo. But its still great. But can anyone honestly name any original American crime-thriller in recent history that came this close in terms of its brilliance? And no, the Departed doesn't count because it's a knockoff of Infernal Affairs, a much better movie, imo. I can't get my head wrapped around the idea that Scorsese, out of all the great movies he's made, wins an Oscar for a knockoff. Anyway, I would say the same about I saw the devil and Chaser. Fantastic films. -J.S.

Chaser is one of my favourite films from recent years. Have you seen the director's follow up? The Yellow Sea?

I love certain aspects of I Saw the Devil, although I thought it went of for too long. The director's earlier film, A Bittersweet Life, is nothing short of a masterpiece, however. The 20 minutes around where the protag gets buried are some of my favourite 20 minutes from any film, ever.

Quoted from Toby_E Chaser is one of my favourite films from recent years. Have you seen the director's follow up? The Yellow Sea? I love certain aspects of I Saw the Devil, although I thought it went of for too long. The director's earlier film, A Bittersweet Life, is nothing short of a masterpiece, however. The 20 minutes around where the protag gets buried are some of my favourite 20 minutes from any film, ever.

Yep. I watched it several weeks ago. I thought it was pretty good. A bit long in the beginning but I still enjoyed it. Mother was another one I saw sometime last year and I really enjoyed that one as well.

-J.S.

Quoted from PrussianMosby This statement is very interesting. The genre seems to take a timeout with originals. I was astonished how many of the best 90's ones till now are adapted or remakes. I guess that's what you call recent, J.S., not? 90's, 00's, 10's?

I'd say 2000 and on. There are some pretty good thrillers from the 90s.

Quoted from PrussianMosby Collateral

That was one of my favorite movies when it came out. I wrote a short film loosely based on Cruise's character, actually.

Quoted from PrussianMosby Concerning crime and a "bit" thriller, I think, Denzel Washington is a big deal in these times. Especially I like Training Day and John Q. For me these films have solid to good plays and of course Denzel Washington makes them great. These films will be called brilliant, imo- but later.

I enjoyed Unstoppable a lot more than I thought I would. Not great, but definitely pretty good.

-J.S.

Quoted from J.S. But can anyone honestly name any original American crime-thriller in recent history that came this close in terms of its brilliance?

Having trouble with this! That's a sad thought. For me, the ones that spring to mind are Drive, Black Swan, and nothing. Haha. Excision, if that counts, which probably it doesn't, really. But none of those are quite up to the level of Oldboy, for me.

EDIT: If we go as far back as 2000, I guess I'd throw in Mulholland Dr., Session 9...maybe The Prestige.

Unstoppable is the best, by the way. I'm just focusing on movies that go for the throat a bit more, like Oldboy, in my comparison.

Yeah, Drive and Collateral were the first two that came to mind for me, as well. I've got a lot of time for Gone Baby Gone, Fargo and No Country, also.

But regardless, in terms of thrillers, no one does it quite like the Asians.

Quoted from Heretic Having trouble with this! That's a sad thought. For me, the ones that spring to mind are Drive, Black Swan, and nothing. Haha. Excision, if that counts, which probably it doesn't, really. But none of those are quite up to the level of Oldboy, for me.

I really liked Drive when I saw it in the theater. Flawed as a whole. And I loved the beginning of it. I was like, "Man, I wish more action films were like this." They balanced action so, so well, I nearly thought great crime films were making a come back. Well.... now we know those tears of joy were for naught

But, you're right. It doesn't really come close to Oldboy. The movie balances violence, drama, emotion, just all of it, so damn well, I just want to grab a copy of it and watch it right now

-J.S.

Quoted from Toby_E Yeah, Drive and Collateral were the first two that came to mind for me, as well. I've got a lot of time for Gone Baby Gone, Fargo and No Country, also. But regardless, in terms of thrillers, no one does it quite like the Asians.

NCFOM, Drive, and Gone Baby Gone are technically adaptations. Fargo is original and a fantastic film, but that was like 20 years ago. Nothing really that great in the past decade.

-J.S.

Quoted from Heretic EDIT: If we go as far back as 2000, I guess I'd throw in Mulholland Dr., Session 9...maybe The Prestige. Unstoppable is the best, by the way. I'm just focusing on movies that go for the throat a bit more, like Oldboy, in my comparison.

:O I can't believe you'd say Session 9. I hate that movie

Mulholland Dr. is kinda meh. The Prestige is okay as well. Nothing to write home about though.

EDIT: I guess Memento might be a good contender. But that's psychological thriller, as is Shutter Island, which I actually enjoyed.

EDIT 2: The Prestige is also an adaptation.

EDIT 3: Just realized that Shutter Island is also an adaption.... the world is ending.