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I aree, that CUT TO: may be a bit much for a spec script. I would avoid it. The use of CONTINUOUS on a slug still mystifies me to this day. I've argued this with many. Never gotten anywhere. It seems redundant, we're obviously continuing on to the next scene. If your audience doesn't realize this is happenning simultaneaously, the flaw is in the writing, not the slug.
Since I'm not familiar with its proper use and have been able to argue against the logic that others use it, I simply leave it out of my scripts altogether.
Careful with mini slugs outside. Rarely use them in an EXT setting. How far away do you have to travel before another EXT scene deserves a full slug?
The use of CONTINUOUS on a slug still mystifies me to this day. It seems redundant, we're obviously continuing on to the next scene.
I think a lot of people would agree with you. Here's what I found:
Instead, CONTINUOUS is best used for stylized scenes where a conversation or action continues right across several Locations. ((http://www.scriptfrenzy.org/howtoformatascreenplay) (i.e the dialogue was actually continuous) ----------------------- One of the more common mistakes is to use the term “CONTINUOUS” as a time of day. This is redundant, for unless the master location changes we may assume each successive scene is part of a continuous sequence. What’s more, when the production manager breaks the script down for scheduling purposes, the term “CONTINUOUS” would be meaningless, as it does not inform us whether the scene is day or night. The one format that does use “CONTINUOUS” is three-camera tape. (Their scripts also break down the characters for each scene under that scene’s heading.) Unless you’re writing a television sitcom or a soap opera, you shouldn’t use “CONTINUOUS” as a time of day. (http://www.storysense.com/format/headings.htm ) --------------------------------- Is it ok to use this in a spec script. I have been told 'NO'. Also i read this on a website:
INT. WAREHOUSE – DAY CORRECT
INT. WAREHOUSE – CONTINUOUS INCORRECT
A lot of screenwriters use CONTINUOUS at the end of their sluglines in order to keep the reader aware of whether or not we’re still in the same scene as the slugline changes. But if it’s not apparent that the scene is continuous without you having to specify CONTINUOUS at the end of your slugline, then you need to go back and fix your scene(s) to make it clear that the scene continues, rather than using CONTINUOUS. Additionally, a lot of Production Managers and First Assistant Directors I’ve worked with simply hate CONTINUOUS in sluglines. When they’re breaking down the script for production, they want to know whether the scene is DAY or NIGHT. Not DAWN or EVENING. Not CONTINUOUS. Just DAY OR NIGHT. To reiterate: a script that’s written clearly and flowing well doesn’t need CONTINUOUS, because if it’s well-written, then it should be plainly apparent that the scene is a continuation of the last. I stick to DAY or NIGHT and leave the morning/evening specification to the brief descriptive text below, if I feel the setting needs more clarity. (http://www.screenwritinggoldmine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4210)
I also had a quite look through IMSDB - only found one use of continuous, only spartan use of minis - but minis were used more often of the two. I guess we draw our own conclusions.
I think a lot of people would agree with you. Here's what I found:
Instead, CONTINUOUS is best used for stylized scenes where a conversation or action continues right across several Locations. ((http://www.scriptfrenzy.org/howtoformatascreenplay) (i.e the dialogue was actually continuous) ----------------------- One of the more common mistakes is to use the term “CONTINUOUS” as a time of day. This is redundant, for unless the master location changes we may assume each successive scene is part of a continuous sequence. What’s more, when the production manager breaks the script down for scheduling purposes, the term “CONTINUOUS” would be meaningless, as it does not inform us whether the scene is day or night. The one format that does use “CONTINUOUS” is three-camera tape. (Their scripts also break down the characters for each scene under that scene’s heading.) Unless you’re writing a television sitcom or a soap opera, you shouldn’t use “CONTINUOUS” as a time of day. (http://www.storysense.com/format/headings.htm ) --------------------------------- Is it ok to use this in a spec script. I have been told 'NO'. Also i read this on a website:
INT. WAREHOUSE – DAY CORRECT
INT. WAREHOUSE – CONTINUOUS INCORRECT
A lot of screenwriters use CONTINUOUS at the end of their sluglines in order to keep the reader aware of whether or not we’re still in the same scene as the slugline changes. But if it’s not apparent that the scene is continuous without you having to specify CONTINUOUS at the end of your slugline, then you need to go back and fix your scene(s) to make it clear that the scene continues, rather than using CONTINUOUS. Additionally, a lot of Production Managers and First Assistant Directors I’ve worked with simply hate CONTINUOUS in sluglines. When they’re breaking down the script for production, they want to know whether the scene is DAY or NIGHT. Not DAWN or EVENING. Not CONTINUOUS. Just DAY OR NIGHT. To reiterate: a script that’s written clearly and flowing well doesn’t need CONTINUOUS, because if it’s well-written, then it should be plainly apparent that the scene is a continuation of the last. I stick to DAY or NIGHT and leave the morning/evening specification to the brief descriptive text below, if I feel the setting needs more clarity. (http://www.screenwritinggoldmine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4210)
I also had a quite look through IMSDB - only found one use of continuous, only spartan use of minis - but minis were used more often of the two. I guess we draw our own conclusions.
I was also going to make a post suggesting screenwriters on SS writing Spec Script shouldn't use CONTINUOUS so its great to see SiColl007 has found an argument which confirms this mentioned by folk in the industry..
I would suggest not using SUB SLUGS either..
Just write out the full slugline and only using DAY or NIGHT
If you have to mention the time of day write that underneath the slugline like so:-
EXT. FARM - DAY
It is morning.
INT. FARMHOUSE - DAY
It is late afternoon.
EXT. FARM - NIGHT
It is early evening.
INT. FARMHOUSE - NIGHT
It is midnight.
Production managers have to cost a production when they break down a screenplay and they need the DAY and NIGHT in the script to be able to work out how many scenes are shot during the day and how many scenes are shot during the night. When the work out a production schedule the various day and night scenes can be estimated with crew and actors wages, catering, lights, equipment, hotel and accommodation and traveling to location expenses for those scenes..
If you don't put full sluglines with either DAY or NIGHT in them they'll have to go through the complete screenplay and then go through the tedious process of asking you the original writer which one is day and which one is night..
Makes sense doesn't it?
DAY and or NIGHT - nothing else..
And use FULL SLUGS...
I also only CAPITALIZE my characters when first being introduced and hardly capitalize anything else unless absolutely necessary..
I may cap these which are acceptable in a spec script:-
INT: FARMHOUSE - KITCHEN - NIGHT (FLASHBACK)
FARMER GILES (40), a human digging machine, paces the kitchen.
END FLASHBACK:
INT: FARM - DAY
A character picks up the telephone.
CHARACTER #1 It's me! You done that job for me?
INTERCUT:
INT: BANK - OFFICE - DAY
Character #2 fumbles with a telephone on a desk.
CHARACTER #2 No! I haven't had time.
CHARACTER #1 You know what this means?
CHARACTER #2 What?
CHARACTER #1 You're dead!
END INTERCUT:
Use INTERCUT: for phones, radio walki-talkies, Skype and such..
Once you have mentioned the two or three or however many locations are in the inter-cutting, you only have to write the characters and their dialogue and you do not need to write out the different locations on each cut. Let the dialogue exchange signify the change of locations themselves because you would have previously mentioned the various locations at the beginning of the INTERCUT:
When you signify the end of an intercut using END INTERCUT: then you transition to a new scene with a new SLUGLINE which signifies the INTERCUT between locations has ended and a new scene with new location and new time of day has began.
(FLASHBACK) and END FLASHBACK: can also be substituted with (DREAM) and END DREAM: or (NIGHTMARE) and END NIGHTMARE:
A lot of published books on screenwriting contain this information, it is mentioned in some of John August's blogs and you'll discover these nuggets of wisdom by reading spec script (NOT Shooting Scripts)..
There is a school of thought which suggests don't capitalize anything except for when you first introduce a character and don't cap their name after that and only cap stuff like FLASHBACK, DREAM, NIGHTMARE, INTERCUT and stuff like that.. Anything else don't cap it.. It makes for a better read, the caps don't get in the way..
If your spec script is optioned and you get assigned to rewrite it and take it all the way up to a shooting script then the can CAP the CRAP out of IT!
If you're talking about Mini Slugs, I'd disagree with you here, Kevan. There was a time when I too thought this way, but I changed my opinion years ago.
For me, Mini Slugs should be used when you are "tracking" through some sort of structure, like a house or building, from 1 room to another. Reads so much cleaner and for me at least, infers that you are indeed doing this in a single tracking shot, as in you're following a character's movement.
Most writers use Mini Slugs completely incorrectly, and I constantly bring it up. You'll hear writers in here continually saying they don't need a time frame in their Slug, and sometimes not even INT. or EXT., which I totally disagree with.
I'm all for full Slugs, but Mini's can and do work in the right situation.
Just write out the full slugline and only using DAY or NIGHT
If you have to mention the time of day write that underneath the slugline like so:-
EXT. FARM - DAY
It is morning.
Again, I have to completely disagree with you here. Yes, there are those who preach this philosophy, but there are others who say you definitely can (and should) use alternate time elements in Slugs, when they apply...and make a difference.
First of all, I always say, Slugs can be your bestest buddies if you know how to use them effectively. They can portray so much info in their single line. They can help your readers so much by delivering info that clarifies and "sets" the scene.
Let's understand a few things...first of all, we're all talking about Spec Scripts, that are written to invoke interest in both our stories and our writing in general. Secondly, understand that scripts don't have the luxury of visuals, like in a filmed version of a script. Obviously, strong visual writing can help, as well as clear descriptive writing, but strong, informative Slugs go a long way, and don't take up any extra space.
Your example above is such dull writing...pedestrian, even. And, it wastes a line, and maybe even 2 or 3, based on the fact that writing out the actual time of day in your action description line may be its own passage, as I doubt you'd add actual action onto a line like that.
If your story/plot has a linear, time related structure, using "MORNING", "AFTERNOON", or "EVENING" helps the reader follow along, without seeing the visual clues he would in a filmed version.
Using "MOMENTS LATER" and "LATER" are also helpful, as long as it's understood that once the time element "changes" (from day to night, etc.), it must be reflected in the next Slug.
And finally, I completely understand that a shooting script MUST have DAY or NIGHT (or if it happens to be an important alternate, like DUSK or DAWN) in the Slugs for setting up the shooting schedule, etc.
But we're not at that point yet...not even close, actually. This is about producing a solid, impressive, smooth read. The easier and quicker a reader can get through your script, the better. Continually using DAY or NIGHT in back to back to back Slugs doesn't look good...it doesn't read well.
I'll go so far as to say I like using "LATER" or the like as a Mini Slug, when it's appropriate. I sure don't want to see the exact same Slug used again and again...know what I'm saying? And that's what you'd have, if writers followed your advice for a single setting script. It wouldn't work, wouldn't look good, and wouldn't be easy to follow the written version.
And, this is really why I say what I say about Slugs (or anything else for that matter). I look at every possible situation and figure out what works the best and what makes the most sense, applied to each and every possibility. I believe in 100% consistency, and that's why I write Slugs the way I do...and try to help others see the light.
I also don't agree with using INTERCUT, because, to me, it's lazy writing and it's relinquishing creative control of the script - for no reason, IMO. This is another whole discussion, though.
And for Flashbacks and Dreams? Yeah, another entire discussion, but I will say it's imperative to properly format your Flashbacks and Dreams, and IMO, the Slug is not the place to do it. Flashbacks can cover many different scenes and Slugs, so I always recommend doing it like this...
BEGIN FLASHBACK:
NEW SLUG
SLUG
SLUG
END FLASHBACK.
Which will return you to the scene (Slug) you were in when the Flashback or Dream began. Clean, easy to follow, technically correct.
If you're talking about Mini Slugs, I'd disagree with you here, Kevan. There was a time when I too thought this way, but I changed my opinion years ago.
For me, Mini Slugs should be used when you are "tracking" through some sort of structure, like a house or building, from 1 room to another. Reads so much cleaner and for me at least, infers that you are indeed doing this in a single tracking shot, as in you're following a character's movement.
Most writers use Mini Slugs completely incorrectly, and I constantly bring it up. You'll hear writers in here continually saying they don't need a time frame in their Slug, and sometimes not even INT. or EXT., which I totally disagree with.
I'm all for full Slugs, but Mini's can and do work in the right situation.
Again, I have to completely disagree with you here. Yes, there are those who preach this philosophy, but there are others who say you definitely can (and should) use alternate time elements in Slugs, when they apply...and make a difference.
First of all, I always say, Slugs can be your bestest buddies if you know how to use them effectively. They can portray so much info in their single line. They can help your readers so much by delivering info that clarifies and "sets" the scene.
Let's understand a few things...first of all, we're all talking about Spec Scripts, that are written to invoke interest in both our stories and our writing in general. Secondly, understand that scripts don't have the luxury of visuals, like in a filmed version of a script. Obviously, strong visual writing can help, as well as clear descriptive writing, but strong, informative Slugs go a long way, and don't take up any extra space.
Your example above is such dull writing...pedestrian, even. And, it wastes a line, and maybe even 2 or 3, based on the fact that writing out the actual time of day in your action description line may be its own passage, as I doubt you'd add actual action onto a line like that.
If your story/plot has a linear, time related structure, using "MORNING", "AFTERNOON", or "EVENING" helps the reader follow along, without seeing the visual clues he would in a filmed version.
Using "MOMENTS LATER" and "LATER" are also helpful, as long as it's understood that once the time element "changes" (from day to night, etc.), it must be reflected in the next Slug.
And finally, I completely understand that a shooting script MUST have DAY or NIGHT (or if it happens to be an important alternate, like DUSK or DAWN) in the Slugs for setting up the shooting schedule, etc.
But we're not at that point yet...not even close, actually. This is about producing a solid, impressive, smooth read. The easier and quicker a reader can get through your script, the better. Continually using DAY or NIGHT in back to back to back Slugs doesn't look good...it doesn't read well.
I'll go so far as to say I like using "LATER" or the like as a Mini Slug, when it's appropriate. I sure don't want to see the exact same Slug used again and again...know what I'm saying? And that's what you'd have, if writers followed your advice for a single setting script. It wouldn't work, wouldn't look good, and wouldn't be easy to follow the written version.
And, this is really why I say what I say about Slugs (or anything else for that matter). I look at every possible situation and figure out what works the best and what makes the most sense, applied to each and every possibility. I believe in 100% consistency, and that's why I write Slugs the way I do...and try to help others see the light.
I also don't agree with using INTERCUT, because, to me, it's lazy writing and it's relinquishing creative control of the script - for no reason, IMO. This is another whole discussion, though.
And for Flashbacks and Dreams? Yeah, another entire discussion, but I will say it's imperative to properly format your Flashbacks and Dreams, and IMO, the Slug is not the place to do it. Flashbacks can cover many different scenes and Slugs, so I always recommend doing it like this...
BEGIN FLASHBACK:
NEW SLUG
SLUG
SLUG
END FLASHBACK.
Which will return you to the scene (Slug) you were in when the Flashback or Dream began. Clean, easy to follow, technically correct.
I just knew I'd come up against you at some point on SS, Dreamscale, because I've read a lot of your previous posts where you have perpetuated a lot of myths about screenplay structure and formatting where you advocate breaking rules for breaking rules sake.. These are not rules but industry conventions which take years and even decades to arrive at..
Sorry, don't agree with you and you are perpetuating a poor understanding of what it is to write and format what is termed a spec script..
I have my opinion backed by years at this game...
Even studied it at Masters Degree level..
I have all the major books on screenwriting in my personal library.. I've read about 150 books or more on screenwriting.. The most important information any screenwriter can learn is the 3 act structure, the protagonist/antagonist dynamic, a beginning, middle and end in story-telling, grabbing the reader in the first 10 pages, having a marketable, high-concept script and learn proper industry spec script formatting.. I could go on I have many more...
I have about 20,000 or more screenplays in my personal collection and have read most of them. I've studied the historical developments in screenplay formatting from the early 1900s right up to the present day in the 21st century 2011 and I stand by my suggestions..
Sure you can break convention and have a 3 act structure that doesn't conform to page count, sure you can use CAPs all over the place, sure you can use Camera angles, sure you can use subslugs, it is a free world out there and you can do anything.. But unless a non-repped and non-produced screenwriter can demonstrate they fully understand how to write a screenplay, including formatting conventions, then their work will be laughed at and tossed in the trashcan.. Simple as that.. The more you understand the subtle intricacies of structure and formatting then this displays you have studied your craft and worked at your craft and have an understanding of craft.. Because that's what it is a craft.
To suggest everybody go and break the rules before they learn them is at tad reckless if you don't mind me saying so.. If one can suggest and guide new screenwriters to adopt those more accepted conventions in writing a screenplay then using those working methods will enable their work to get read and recognized and maybe even a get their foot in the door.. But suggest new writers should break all the rules because you say so is not particularly very helpful to folk in this forum..
I suggest you do your research.. Seriously, it is all about discipline and how you communicate on the page what you know, what you understand and how you tell a story on the page using those conventions which are used every day by screenwriters across the land so those in the industry who read your screenplays understand what you've written on the page...
There is no law which states you cannot use subslugs but I advocate not using them because they stand out like a sore thumb and get in the way of the read. Anything which raises a red flag, stands out like a sore thumb or gets in the way of the read should be removed and something more appropriate used to more accepted conventions will more likely improve the read and at the same time display to those who read your screenplay that you understand those conventions to begin with..
Breaking conventions (you can call them rules if you like) simply demonstrates you are a rule breaker, a maverick who don't give a toss about conventions and are more than willing to break them for breaking rules-sake, rather than adhering to them as proper industry practice.
Charles Deemer, a playwright/screenwriter and ex-lecturer in screenwriting studies at the University of Portland argued less is more.. He also says exactly the same things as I advocate less CAPs, no subslugs and definitely no camera angles in spec scripts.. The rest is pretty obvious if you've read enough spec scripts but it sounds very much like you haven't..
This is sound advice.. You do what you want Dreamscale but try not to impose bad practices onto others just for argument's sake.. Learning proper industry conventions is where it is at, my brother... I'm simply arguing you will get better responses if you follow my suggestions.. After all I have a lot of experience reading a lot of pros scripts and providing notes and coverage for them as well as years of study in the game..
BTW, with regard to the 3 act structure Christopher Nolan's MOMENTO The black-and-white sequences of the film take place chronologically before any of the colored sequences and begin it is just the B&W and color sequences have been edited out of order to emphasize the character Leonard Shelby's anterograde amnesia, impairing his ability to store memories of recent events. Despite this MOMENTO still has a 3 act structure but the sequences are out of order..
Play all the black and white sequences in order first then all the colored sequences in order and you'll find the story conforms to a proper 3 act structure with all those elements which make up a 3 act structure firmly in place.. No deviating from the inciting incident, mid point and turning point in act three.. They're all there just out of order because of the way the film was complied via editing..
Page count helps the writer hit a target for a reason, they are there to assist the writer complete a script beat by beat, scene by scene, sequence by sequence, act by act plot point by plot point.. Writing without a target suggests writing by the seat of your pants rather than writing by design... Much more control by page count than by the seat of your pants.. One is more accurate for that target the other is hit and miss and sometimes way off the mark by 10 or more pages or so and that means somebody didn't follow those conventions we are talking about.. These conventions are there to assist the writer with structure in order to obtain the most solid first draft as possible with a good 3 act structure in place and prevent the need of going all the way back and having to fix it because they overstepped their inciting incident a quarter-the-way through the 2nd act.. Because this is what happens if you break those conventions you end up with a bit of a mess to be honest.. I've read 100s if not 1000s of screenplays where this happens.. They get lost because they failed to take note of their page count and some get lost in act two and think the mid point is turning point for act 3 all because they failed to take note of conventions and working practices and they listened to someone on a forum.. So now they have to perform a major rewrite because their 3 act structure sucked and some guy advocated breaking rules on an internet forum...
At least my suggestions will lead some writers to appreciate conventions and end up with a sound first draft with a solid 3 act structure and this can only be a good thing.. That's the very reason why I posted in the first place..
I just knew I'd come up against you at some point on SS, Dreamscale, because I've read a lot of your previous posts where you have perpetuated a lot of myths about screenplay structure and formatting where you advocate breaking rules for breaking rules sake.. These are not rules but industry conventions which take years and even decades to arrive at..
Sorry, don't agree with you and you are perpetuating a poor understanding of what it is to write and format what is termed a spec script..
I have my opinion backed by years at this game...
Even studied it at Masters Degree level..
I have all the major books on screenwriting in my personal library.. I've read about 150 books or more on screenwriting.. The most important information any screenwriter can learn is the 3 act structure, the protagonist/antagonist dynamic, a beginning, middle and end in story-telling, grabbing the reader in the first 10 pages, having a marketable, high-concept script and learn proper industry spec script formatting.. I could go on I have many more...
I have about 20,000 or more screenplays in my personal collection and have read most of them. I've studied the historical developments in screenplay formatting from the early 1900s right up to the present day in the 21st century 2011 and I stand by my suggestions..
Sure you can break convention and have a 3 act structure that doesn't conform to page count, sure you can use CAPs all over the place, sure you can use Camera angles, sure you can use subslugs, it is a free world out there and you can do anything.. But unless a non-repped and non-produced screenwriter can demonstrate they fully understand how to write a screenplay, including formatting conventions, then their work will be laughed at and tossed in the trashcan.. Simple as that.. The more you understand the subtle intricacies of structure and formatting then this displays you have studied your craft and worked at your craft and have an understanding of craft.. Because that's what it is a craft.
To suggest everybody go and break the rules before they learn them is at tad reckless if you don't mind me saying so.. If one can suggest and guide new screenwriters to adopt those more accepted conventions in writing a screenplay then using those working methods will enable their work to get read and recognized and maybe even a get their foot in the door.. But suggest new writers should break all the rules because you say so is not particularly very helpful to folk in this forum..
I suggest you do your research.. Seriously, it is all about discipline and how you communicate on the page what you know, what you understand and how you tell a story on the page using those conventions which are used every day by screenwriters across the land so those in the industry who read your screenplays understand what you've written on the page...
There is no law which states you cannot use subslugs but I advocate not using them because they stand out like a sore thumb and get in the way of the read. Anything which raises a red flag, stands out like a sore thumb or gets in the way of the read should be removed and something more appropriate used to more accepted conventions will more likely improve the read and at the same time display to those who read your screenplay that you understand those conventions to begin with..
Breaking conventions (you can call them rules if you like) simply demonstrates you are a rule breaker, a maverick who don't give a toss about conventions and are more than willing to break them for breaking rules-sake, rather than adhering to them as proper industry practice.
Charles Deemer, a playwright/screenwriter and ex-lecturer in screenwriting studies at the University of Portland argued less is more.. He also says exactly the same things as I advocate less CAPs, no subslugs and definitely no camera angles in spec scripts.. The rest is pretty obvious if you've read enough spec scripts but it sounds very much like you haven't..
This is sound advice.. You do what you want Dreamscale but try not to impose bad practices onto others just for argument's sake.. Learning proper industry conventions is where it is at, my brother... I'm simply arguing you will get better responses if you follow my suggestions.. After all I have a lot of experience reading a lot of pros scripts and providing notes and coverage for them as well as years of study in the game..
BTW, with regard to the 3 act structure Christopher Nolan's MOMENTO The black-and-white sequences of the film take place chronologically before any of the colored sequences and begin it is just the B&W and color sequences have been edited out of order to emphasize the character Leonard Shelby's anterograde amnesia, impairing his ability to store memories of recent events. Despite this MOMENTO still has a 3 act structure but the sequences are out of order..
Play all the black and white sequences in order first then all the colored sequences in order and you'll find the story conforms to a proper 3 act structure with all those elements which make up a 3 act structure firmly in place.. No deviating from the inciting incident, mid point and turning point in act three.. They're all there just out of order because of the way the film was complied via editing..
Page count helps the writer hit a target for a reason, they are there to assist the writer complete a script beat by beat, scene by scene, sequence by sequence, act by act plot point by plot point.. Writing without a target suggests writing by the seat of your pants rather than writing by design... Much more control by page count than by the seat of your pants.. One is more accurate for that target the other is hit and miss and sometimes way off the mark by 10 or more pages or so and that means somebody didn't follow those conventions we are talking about.. These conventions are there to assist the writer with structure in order to obtain the most solid first draft as possible with a good 3 act structure in place and prevent the need of going all the way back and having to fix it because they overstepped their inciting incident a quarter-the-way through the 2nd act.. Because this is what happens if you break those conventions you end up with a bit of a mess to be honest.. I've read 100s if not 1000s of screenplays where this happens.. They get lost because they failed to take note of their page count and some get lost in act two and think the mid point is turning point for act 3 all because they failed to take note of conventions and working practices and they listened to someone on a forum.. So now they have to perform a major rewrite because their 3 act structure sucked and some guy advocated breaking rules on an internet forum...
At least my suggestions will lead some writers to appreciate conventions and end up with a sound first draft with a solid 3 act structure and this can only be a good thing.. That's the very reason why I posted in the first place.Kevan
Well, Kevan, if you want to call this "coming up against me", you go, bro. Not quite sure where the tude is coming from or what all your ramblings pertain to here, but I thought we were discussing Slugs and transitions? You jumped ship and went off on some 3 act structure BS, and then accused me of advising writers to break rules and conventions.
I'm not going to reply to all of your comments here, but let's be clear that I am one of those who is against breaking conventions and rules. I'm a stickler for details and consistency in technical writing and formatting.
If you're alluding to my philosophy on "structure", or lack of its necessity, that's fine, and we can have that discussion, but it's not the discussion at hand...is it?
It's funny, because, for some reason, you completely ignored every single point I brought up on why I disagreed with your post, and went into your little rant, spouting off about your great knowledge base of all things screenwriting. It's too bad that people with so much knowledge, like yourself, are so stuck on what a story has to be (and what page everything has to happen on), when, in reality, that's the one and only place a writer has the opportunity to bring his own flavor to the table.
Damn, you got me started now...
As someone who has read so many scripts, and hopefully seen as many or more actual movies, you should be aware that not all follow your Holy Grail, even if you want to try and peg them into your little STC or whatever else BS. You know that it's far from mandatory for every movie to follow the exact same generic blueprint. And you should also be aware that different genres follow different "rules".
Not sure why you want to have a go with me, Kevan, but if you do, you probably know I'm more than game. Why don't you respond to what I actually posted originally here and let's see where or why we're bumping heads.
Well, Kevan, if you want to call this "coming up against me", you go, bro. Not quite sure where the tude is coming from or what all your ramblings pertain to here, but I thought we were discussing Slugs and transitions? You jumped ship and went off on some 3 act structure BS, and then accused me of advising writers to break rules and conventions.
I'm not going to reply to all of your comments here, but let's be clear that I am one of those who is against breaking conventions and rules. I'm a stickler for details and consistency in technical writing and formatting.
If you're alluding to my philosophy on "structure", or lack of its necessity, that's fine, and we can have that discussion, but it's not the discussion at hand...is it?
It's funny, because, for some reason, you completely ignored every single point I brought up on why I disagreed with your post, and went into your little rant, spouting off about your great knowledge base of all things screenwriting. It's too bad that people with so much knowledge, like yourself, are so stuck on what a story has to be (and what page everything has to happen on), when, in reality, that's the one and only place a writer has the opportunity to bring his own flavor to the table.
Damn, you got me started now...
As someone who has read so many scripts, and hopefully seen as many or more actual movies, you should be aware that not all follow your Holy Grail, even if you want to try and peg them into your little STC or whatever else BS. You know that it's far from mandatory for every movie to follow the exact same generic blueprint. And you should also be aware that different genres follow different "rules".
Not sure why you want to have a go with me, Kevan, but if you do, you probably know I'm more than game. Why don't you respond to what I actually posted originally here and let's see where or why we're bumping heads.
I didn't respond to your actual comments because I don't agree with them, period.
It is a pointless exercise in futility to do so.. A waste of my time and energy to be honest..
I was rather amused at some of your posts I've read particularly where you jumped into Kevin Lenihan Gangster/Zombie script page and attempted to bolster the argument that it didn't matter about his inciting incident carrying over into his 2nd act.. I found that hilarious..
I read his script and then discovered later he reformatted the script only for it to come in at 70 odd pages rather than the 96 in the first draft he originally posted.. Now that raises a red flag to me that Kevin either didn't use Final Draft or Movie Magic Screenwriting software to format his script and he used something else which messed up the page count with its formatted of the text and it's spacing and all or he didn't properly outline and plan his script to know roughly where his inciting incident was going to fall near to or approximately to a particular page in his overall target.. This is a mistake a lot of new screenwriters make. Nothing wring with that as long as the writer sees the mistake or is pointed out to him/her and is rectified in a new draft..
But I assume the problem probably stems from using non-industry script formatting software and exporting the document then importing into Final Draft or Movie Magic Screenwriter which by doing reduced his original page count down from 96 to 70 odd pages where his inciting incident was more in line around page 25 or thereabouts.. Which says to me his 2nd act is too short by 20 pages or he comes into his third act too soon, whichever way you want to put it..
This is because he failed to have a target for his overall page count - simple as.. This is where i first noticed your total disregard for structure and the 3 act structure and page count in particular.. But then I also noticed you entered the CUT TO: thread and rattled on again about this and that as if you are some kind of authority or not..
Well I decide to challenge your so-called authority and maybe I lit the fire under your ass to do it but i wanted to call you out on those assertions you made because you sound pretty determined rule breaker to me..
To be honest I don't care what people do or what you do I'm simply offering the best advice I know from my own knowledge and experience.. I don't just use Blake Snyder Save the Cat method I can use any because I know, understand and have used those too.. But for those who may find it difficult to begin with Save the Cat can be a big help in their learning curve.. It helped with HOW TO TRAIN YOUR DRAGON so there must be something in it..
Don't take it personally Brett, I rattled your cage to get a response from you and I got it..
Let folk who read these posts get from it what they want and learn from it what they want.. As long as, they develop, learn and gain some knowledge on the way then this will help them become better screenwriters.. And if my small contribution to that knowledge helps then so much the better.. If folk follow your advice, power to you..
I don't have time to indulge any longer because I'm currently reading Greg's 138 page first draft opus and then I have some work over the weekend which is my paying job.. But your CLONE WIFE script is next on my list and if you like notes from my read i won't publish them on the forum but provide you these personally.. I usually write 10 pages of notes for a feature anyway and I'm not gonna post 10 pages in a forum.. Same for Greg's script i will email him the 10 pages as as PDF so he can print it out and hopefully those will be of some help to him..
Its all good, Bret.. I'm simply winding you up, man.. Just having a go at you seeing you seemed so sure of what you were saying in some of the threads on SS.. Its good to be challenged now again, it makes you think.. Try not to take it personally.. Seriously, its only my opinion...
Hi Kevan. Thanks for the feedback. I'd have to say though, it did detract from the main thrust of what was going on, which was a constructive debate.
One point: Nolan's 'Momento' mirrors Dreamscale's convention for doing a flashback, which is quite different from yours. You placed Flashback in your slug, and then went on to specify the slug should have "DAY and or NIGHT - nothing else."
As a learner, I appreciate your input, but I'm not convinced you've provided clarity on the issue with it.
I didn't respond to your actual comments because I don't agree with them, period.
It is a pointless exercise in futility to do so.. A waste of my time and energy to be honest.
Hmmm, that's interesting to say the least. Very interesting, actually.
You don't seem to agree with alot of the stuff I've said on other posts, yet you choose to continually rant about them here, when they have nothing to do with this thread.
That just doesn't make any sense, Kevan. I think the issue is that you can't poke holes in what I said here, so in order for you to appear to be Mr. Smartass, you choose to go on and on about things that haven't even been mentioned in this thread.
I was rather amused at some of your posts I've read particularly where you jumped into Kevin Lenihan Gangster/Zombie script page and attempted to bolster the argument that it didn't matter about his inciting incident carrying over into his 2nd act.. I found that hilarious.
OK...glad you were amused. It's good to laugh...does the body good.
I'm not sure exactly what you're referencing here, as again, it's totally out of left field and has nothing to do with this thread.
I read his script and then discovered later he reformatted the script only for it to come in at 70 odd pages rather than the 96 in the first draft he originally posted.. Now that raises a red flag to me that Kevin either didn't use Final Draft or Movie Magic Screenwriting software to format his script and he used something else which messed up the page count with its formatted of the text and it's spacing and all or he didn't properly outline and plan his script to know roughly where his inciting incident was going to fall near to or approximately to a particular page in his overall target.. This is a mistake a lot of new screenwriters make. Nothing wring with that as long as the writer sees the mistake or is pointed out to him/her and is rectified in a new draft..
But I assume the problem probably stems from using non-industry script formatting software and exporting the document then importing into Final Draft or Movie Magic Screenwriter which by doing reduced his original page count down from 96 to 70 odd pages where his inciting incident was more in line around page 25 or thereabouts.. Which says to me his 2nd act is too short by 20 pages or he comes into his third act too soon, whichever way you want to put it..
This is because he failed to have a target for his overall page count - simple as.. This is where i first noticed your total disregard for structure and the 3 act structure and page count in particular.. But then I also noticed you entered the CUT TO: thread and rattled on again about this and that as if you are some kind of authority or not.
Kevan, WTF are you rambling on about, and why are you bringing up Kev's script from months ago? What possible relevance does it have here on this thread? And what's with all the shit about what screenwriting program was used or not used?
Well I decide to challenge your so-called authority and maybe I lit the fire under your ass to do it but i wanted to call you out on those assertions you made because you sound pretty determined rule breaker to me.
Or maybe I lit a bonfire under your big ass? I simply posted that I disagreed with several things you said in this thread, on this subject. I'm still not sure why you're bringing up all these other things from threads that are probably over 6 months old.
To be honest I don't care what people do or what you do I'm simply offering the best advice I know from my own knowledge and experience.. I don't just use Blake Snyder Save the Cat method I can use any because I know, understand and have used those too.. But for those who may find it difficult to begin with Save the Cat can be a big help in their learning curve.. It helped with HOW TO TRAIN YOUR DRAGON so there must be something in it..
Well, ain't you something, then? That's so good to hear.
Don't take it personally Brett, I rattled your cage to get a response from you and I got it..
Brett? Do you have me mixed up with someone else, Kevan? I think you do, bro. Maybe it's your little cage that got rattled, as you seem to be quite full of all sorts of random responses, once I disagreed with your feedback, here on this script.
I'd like to take it personally, but now I'm not even sure you know who you're talking to and about. Are you sure it was even my post on Kevin's script you're referring to?
Let folk who read these posts get from it what they want and learn from it what they want.. As long as, they develop, learn and gain some knowledge on the way then this will help them become better screenwriters.. And if my small contribution to that knowledge helps then so much the better.. If folk follow your advice, power to you..
Power to the People, bro! Right on. One of us is definitely looking like a dumbfuck, and thankfully, it ain't me.
I don't have time to indulge any longer because I'm currently reading Greg's 138 page first draft opus and then I have some work over the weekend which is my paying job.. But your CLONE WIFE script is next on my list and if you like notes from my read i won't publish them on the forum but provide you these personally.. I usually write 10 pages of notes for a feature anyway and I'm not gonna post 10 pages in a forum.. Same for Greg's script i will email him the 10 pages as as PDF so he can print it out and hopefully those will be of some help to him..
Well, that should be amusing, because Clone Wife isn't my script. And if you had checked, you'd also know that I was far from a fan on it (no offense to Brett). But now that you do, or soon will know this, maybe you can do your best to shoot down everything I did bring up on that first draft I read...or, maybe, you'll find that pretty much everything I brought up was taken to heart by Brett and either changed, added, or cut.
Either way, I think it would be nice to be able to see your feedback on the actual post, so we can all learn a little from the master himself.
Its all good, Bret.. I'm simply winding you up, man.. Just having a go at you seeing you seemed so sure of what you were saying in some of the threads on SS.. Its good to be challenged now again, it makes you think.. Try not to take it personally.. Seriously, its only my opinion...
I'm Jeff, Kevan. Brett is Electric Dreamer.
Again, it really seems like either I've wound you up or you wound yourself up.
I am sure about what I say and I say the same things over and over. If you're even remotely familiar with my posts, you'd know that structure and the like is rarely something I bring up. I focus more on the nuts and bolts of scripts. Structure can be anything, as long as it works and makes sense. Absolutely no reason to tell people that their story has to fall into some BS blueprint, down to the page that some untalented writing guru mandates. I've asked this before and I'll do it right here so you can chime in with your wisdom...
What did Blake Snyder write again that shows his immense talents? Was it "Blank Check" or "Stop! Or my Mom Will Shoot"? Two awesome movies, huh?
OK, if you say so, bro. But, you really need to get your facts semi straight, or you'll really come off as a douche. Oh wait...you've already managed that.
If there are two people in this world who bristle more at the mere suggestion that they might be mistaken about something, I have yet to meet them.
And don't even try to deny it, either.
I have to try, Bert...sorry. I don't have a problem if someone disagrees with me, but I will back up my point and try to make them understand why I believe what I believe.
But it does appear you're 100% about old Kevan, here. I thought we'd merely have a little discussion on the topics at hand, but Kevan didn't want to play that game...probably cause Kevan knew he wasn't going to be able to win that game
Things were getting a little dull here. We need a good donnybrook once in a while! Good show.
I can shed a little light on what happened in my script, since it was mentioned. And thanks for checking it out. The software I used was Movie Outline. I've been writing about a year, and at the time I wrote that, it had been about 6 months, so I still had much to learn. Still do, of course, but hopefully I've learned a thing or two. Anyway, the issue was simply the font used, believe it or not. The font I used was courier, which is what I understood was the standard. At least according to my software it said it was courier. A few people told me it looked off, but I really didn't know what to do about it, or what the issue was.
Gary Rademan sent me the Final Draft Courier font. When I installed this, the script dropped like 26 pages!! Just by changing the font.
Kevan, you are correct in that this script was written by an amateur who did not have a strong enough knowledge of certain structural standards, such as the relationship between flaw and theme; and the relationship between the inciting incident and the turn into two.
I have a much better understanding of these things now, but I have not had time to rewrite, as I have been working on other things. This script was written in less then four weeks, and the only notes I put together before writing dealt with the arc I wanted the protag to take. He is a man who has sworn off violence and gets dragged back into it by degrees. He also closed his heart as a self protective reflex, and he must learn to open it again. The theme: without a heart there's no difference between us and the zombies.
It's a quickly written script by a true amateur. But it is also just a monster story, and I wanted to have one in my bag. Also, it did get a "consider" in paid coverage, along with some positive feedback.
I want to enter into the slug fray just a bit. Again, I've only been doing this a year, so I don't have the extensive knowledge or experience you guys have. But I've really taken a close look at it over the last 6 months. Also, I've been reading about 5 or 6 scripts a week that they review at Scriptshadow, and these are generally scripts that have been recently optioned, often by new or relatively new writers.
I have to tell you that there is a HUGE difference between what many people here and in other forums say needs to be done...and what is ACTUALLY done in scripts that are being bought. No one should take my word on that, do the homework yourself.
The important thing is that a script, a) convey the story clearly; b) convey it efficiently; and c) pay enough attention to conventional format that someone in the industry will not look it and think it's amateur.
No one will argue those points, I'm confident. But there are other things to consider, and there's where the differences arise. So let me add this to the list: d) readability.
Yeah, it's important. It's absolutely critical that when a reader gets to the bottom of the page he wants to turn it. Anything that makes the read more cumbersome or adds confusion makes it less likely the reader will turn the page. So any tool in your shed that can help avoid those problems should be used.
Let me consider some.
Mini slugs: if they can make the read easier on the eye without lessening clarity, why not? Logic is simply on the side of using them, and over time, logic will prevail.
Continuous: logic should suggest it be used when it adds to clarity, avoided when it does not. However it is handled by the shooting script writer is irrelevant. By then you've sold your script, who cares about him. There are times when Continuous helps the reader know that there is no time gap. That makes it helpful. Where it's not needed for that clarity, it's wasted ink, and drains energy needlessly from the eye of the reader.
underlining, bold, capitalization: again, where it helps the reader, why not use them? I have heard how it makes a script look amateur and gets it thrown in the trash. I am extremely unconvinced of this. Perhaps that was true at one time. But I see these emphasis tools in some form or another in almost every optioned script. Again, apply logic. Overusing these things makes them ineffective and annoying. But wise use of them can be critical. Most people reading your script are speed reading. They miss stuff. Fact of life. If underlining something you don't want them to miss helps, why not?
Regarding structure: it certainly benefits the writer to master it while he's learning. But in the long run, you'll have to make up your own mind how best to use structure for stories. A lot of people that talk about structure don't even really understand it themselves(no one present, of course). People think as long as an important event occurs around page 28 and page 89, you're covered.
I just read an interview last night with a major director who says this notion of paint by the numbers 3 act structure drives him insane. He thinks it's ruining the industry. He says directors are hungry for anything fresh, and this approach doesn't contribute to that. That's for each writer to decide when he begins a script, whether he wants to paint by the number or not. I'm not arguing one way or the other here.
I can say that in my recent script(not posted) I explored how standard structure works, used it, and found it very helpful. However, I do still caution against the pain by number attitude in some circles. For example, my inciting incident is on page 8. This will bother people who think it should be on page 11 because certain authors have said so. But in this particular story, that would be a mistake. And I hope when people read it, they don't judge it in those terms.
I will add one final note regarding Jeff. I am a little amused by the notion of Jeff as the format "rule breaker". I always thought he was more a stickler to the rules, pretty hardcore in fact. He's taken much time to help me in the past, and I appreciate it, though in the end, I go with whatever I think is best.
In any case, I'm an amateur, I'll sit back and watch the battle. Anyone scoring this bout?
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