I wasn't sure if this is the right place or even whether to bring this is up, especially after other threads about reviews have brought out a few arguments but it's been niggling me.

Firstly I'll admit that my format and grammar needs work but sometimes I feel baffled by the contrasting suggestions on what's right and what's wrong when it comes to correct format.  Some people will tell a writer that you should never do this and you you should do it like this but then a fellow review will tell you otherwise. The whole thing leaves me confused and constantly changing descriptions to try and find a medium.  Is it just me that can't seem to please everyone?

After that long winded thought my questions is shorter and simpler: Does it just come down to personal preference or are there some solid stone do's and don't's?

I will add that I do appreciate all comments on my scripts as I am still learning to do things better and I hold no grudges against people who suggest I do things differently.

Perhaps I should add that there's a script in the horror section now getting some good feedback but many would argue it's over written. Is too much attention paid to format and not enough to story?

What's right is what's clear to you and those who read it.

There is a basic format you need to follow to ensure that your screenplay comes out at approx 1 page per minute.  That is precisely why it was created and it is called "studio format".  Pretty much anything else is invention.  

If you're going to independents or writing shorts then format really isn't going to be a tremendous issue with anyone interested in making it.  You just have to have it look enough like a screenplay for them to read it.

If you are shopping your script to agents or studios then you should use a format closely based on this sample format script.  There's variations but they are minor.  

http://www.oscars.org/awards/nicholl/scriptsample.pdf

If you are writing for television then all bets are off.  Television formats vary greatly - a number of shows use their own format.  And the BBC format is different than the American format.  

However, all screenplay and teleplay formats are derived from "studio format" and strive to present their information at approx 1 page per minute.  

Quoted from alffy Is too much attention paid to format and not enough to story?

Of course it is -- If your format is off then the story won't flow properly.  The format is the very first thing most people will notice...  

If it's good, fluid, strong or appealing then the story will come through and work in tandem with the format.

If your format is off, weak, sloppy, wonky, ballz... then the story is going to have a tough time breaking through to the reader.  

Screenwriting is a balancing act.  You have to have a decent format and a decent story to make a good script worth reading/making/producing.

Quoted from alffy Perhaps I should add that there's a script in the horror section now getting some good feedback but many would argue it's over written. Is too much attention paid to format and not enough to story?

Overly written is  different issue to format. Format, is a template, blueprint or standard method of expressing the visual medium of storytelling that is film, in a written manner.

If something is overly written, then there is far too much action description, description that does not add to the visuals on screen (but may make the story clearer to the reader) or action description that includes unfilmables. The balance between white on the page and text will also look off.

Overly written produced scripts are generally a product from writer/directors who do not have to follow the rules a spec writer does.

Quoted from Baltis. Of course it is -- If your format is off then the story won't flow properly.  The format is the very first thing most people will notice...

No offence Balt but I think you are confusing format with structure.

Quoted from mcornetto No offence Balt but I think you are confusing format with structure.

I always tend to overlap the two.  I know structure deals in organization and format deals in how it's all laid out -- but to me, as I said, they tend to overlap and blur from time to time.  

If a script isn't formatted properly, well laid out, the story won't come through for me because I'm going to be hung up on the way it's presented... I won't even have a chance to get to how the story is structured.

Quoted from alffy Firstly I'll admit that my format and grammar needs work but sometimes I feel baffled by the contrasting suggestions on what's right and what's wrong when it comes to correct format.  Some people will tell a writer that you should never do this and you you should do it like this but then a fellow review will tell you otherwise. The whole thing leaves me confused and constantly changing descriptions to try and find a medium.  Is it just me that can't seem to please everyone? Don't try and please everyone.  yeah,i popped open your script real quick, your format is fine.  If I'm off base here, then please ignore this... I can't help but wonder if your're talking about the use of certain things... like ly or ing words for example.  Stuff like that.

Ghostie

Quoted from Baltis. I always tend to overlap the two.  I know structure deals in organization and format deals in how it's all laid out -- but to me, as I said, they tend to overlap and blur from time to time.   If a script isn't formatted properly, well laid out, the story won't come through for me because I'm going to be hung up on the way it's presented... I won't even have a chance to get to how the story is structured.

Fair enough.  I agree.  A screenplay should always look like a screenplay.

Quoted from alffy Is it just me that can't seem to please everyone?

Short answer, Yes!

Quoted from alffy I hold no grudges against people who suggest I do things differently.

I hope not.

As someone who is new to screenwriting and only written one short, I can understand your frustration. I believe that while some format techniques should be in every script a lot of it IMO is personal preference and that is why you always see so much contrasting feedback from people which isn't a bad thing.

I think you need to take very suggestion on board and then use what works for you and your writing style.

Story is obviously key but if you have tons of formatting mistakes in the first ten pages then a lot of readers aren’t going to make it past that point, doesn’t matter how good your story is.

Just my views.

All the best.

Steve

Your format is absolutely fine, alf. And your scripts The Chocolatier and Pub Lunch (if my memory serves me correct on name) are good. You've got talent. You got format and structure down. So no need to worry.

The question is really just a variation on what 'the rules' are. Just read lots of produced scripts to take on board the style and use your own voice and you're good.

Alffy

I think it's fairly clear that what is considered acceptable in regards to format is not only somewhat flexible, but is evolving. One thing you can do is get your hands on spec scripts that have recently been optioned. You'll see there is some diversity of format, and you'll see that what's being used by people selling scripts is pretty different than what many consider "the rules".

I think when in doubt, it helps to apply logic and common sense. What will make things clearer to the reader? What will do this most efficiently?

Definitely try to get your hands on some recently optioned scripts. PM me if you'd like to look at some.

Cheers for all the advice guys. Maybe I should have been a bit clearer though on some of my argument, and maybe 'format' wasn't the right word either? Mainly I've noticed, and not just with my scripts, that reviews often comment that descriptions should be written differently and certain words shouldn't be used. This is fine and good advice but then other reviews will tell you differently what should and shouldn't be used, frankly I find it rather confusing lol.

It depends on the person's tastes. But, if it gets sold or optioned, then follow the buyers way.

I agree it's confusing, and there remains a clear discrepancy between what's acceptable in pro circles and what people believe on websites like this.

Someone says something is unaccpetable and over time it becomes part of a websites culture that these things are wrong...when it's not necessarily the case.

There is also confusion over certain things...such as what is unfilmmable and what isn't.

Character directions, for instance are NOT unfilmmable, and are perfectly fine to use.

It's perfectly acceptable to say things like "He clearly doesn't understand" rather than having to type the mechanical "He looks confused".

I notice I get pulled up on this quite a bit in reviews...but it's a conscious choice I have made to prevent actors reading the script "representing" emotions and not genuinely feeling them within the boundaries of their character.

Basically if you tell an actor to look confused...they will simply wrinkle their foreheads or whatever...if you leave it open as to their specific reaction they can choose something more interesting...maybe they nod and pretend they agree, and then cast a slight look of confusion afterwards...or just smile numbly...whatever. I just don't like to set something in stone when there may be a better way of doing it.

As you've said, there's a difference between format and style. There's an increasing tendency to want to see everything written in a lean, fast paced style....but not every film is lean or fast paced. The style of the script should reflect the style and pace of the story. A slow burning, intense character portrait should not necessarily be written at the same breathtaking speed as a vacuous action script.

There's also going to be different needs in different scripts. The script you mention in the horror section creates a futuristic world...one that doesn't exist. Simple logic dictates that you're going to need more words to describe completely fabricated items, locations, fashions etc etc than if your story is set in a contemporary location.  

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films As you've said, there's a difference between format and style. There's an increasing tendency to want to see everything written in a lean, fast paced style....but not every film is lean or fast paced. The style of the script should reflect the style and pace of the story. A slow burning, intense character portrait should not necessarily be written at the same breathtaking speed as a vacuous action script.

I agree with you here.  I'll hold my hands up and say I do over write a bit but sometimes I think it helps set the mood and atmosphere of the story.  If I take the bare bones approach to keep it skipping along fast, I think the story sometimes suffers.

Anthony,

Check this out.

http://www.scriptmag.com/featu.....92&rid=233197479

Quoted from mcornetto http://www.oscars.org/awards/nicholl/scriptsample.pdf

that seems pretty clear to me.

but of course i'm the last one over-write any thing. i have a tough time with discriptions, actions, and so forth.

i'm all about dialogue.

Alffy, I know exactly what you're referring to and what this post is in response to, but I won't mention it because I don't want to start another shitstorm in here, which will touch off various peep's egos.

Much of what you get in feedback will be based on that person's opinions, which are derived from other peeps' opinions that he or she has heard or told over the years.  Most of them are far from set in stone and depending on who you talk to, will either be agreed on or shot down as BS.

As a few have correctly said, you have to take everything in and decide for yourself what makes the most sense and why.

It's a guaranteed fact that at least half of everything you get in feedback will be either downright incorrect or poor advice from someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

And I'll expand this statement to include feedback you receive that you pay for or get from those that consider themselves to be "Pros".

Format isn't the issue here, if I'm correct in what brought this thread on, and again, if I am correct, the "DON'T EVER DO THIS" stuff hardly even makes a difference in your script overall, nor does it impact what readers will think of it.

As an example, leaving a multitude of "orphans" in your work is (or can be) an issue, but the funny thing is that you'll find many, or even most, won't have a clue they're even there. Others will actually argue that they create "white space" and therefor are actually good things.  The reality is that they definitely waste space and if space is a premium, or you tend to overwrite anyways, they can be a real nuisance and easily add over 10 pages of "nothing" to a feature.

You've got to both consider the source of your feedback and take it all with a salt shaker's worth of salt.

Quoted from mcornetto What's right is what's clear to you and those who read it.

What he said.

With all that being said, there are those writers that eventually learn how to whittle down that super long 50-word action packed paragraph down to a measly 15, 10, maybe 5 (ya think?) words and they still say what needs to be said with same amount of impact that the previous 50-word paragraph had tried to make. That ability to cut words out to make your point is much more important than getting the proper format down, at least in the long run, when you write scripts.

However, there are writers that whittle 50-word paragraphs down and still have impact. That's more important than format.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films Character directions, for instance are NOT unfilmmable, and are perfectly fine to use. It's perfectly acceptable to say things like "He clearly doesn't understand" rather than having to type the mechanical "He looks confused". I notice I get pulled up on this quite a bit in reviews...but it's a conscious choice I have made to prevent actors reading the script "representing" emotions and not genuinely feeling them within the boundaries of their character. Basically if you tell an actor to look confused...they will simply wrinkle their foreheads or whatever...if you leave it open as to their specific reaction they can choose something more interesting...maybe they nod and pretend they agree, and then cast a slight look of confusion afterwards...or just smile numbly...whatever. I just don't like to set something in stone when there may be a better way of doing it.

As a spec writer in this scenario right now...
I can also say this thought process also applies to producers.

I asked the producer what are some of his favorite scripts that he's sold in the past.
He sent me some examples, and they all this this idea in common.

They all had that style of voice to them.
So, since I'm writing a spec for him to push to the agency...
I decided I better adopt the style of writing that gets him excited.

Regards,
E.D.

I did an "Introduction to Screenwriting" class in college and the formatting we were taught to do was the ones outlined by Screen Australia: http://www.screenaustralia.gov.au/documents/SA_publications/IG/SuggScriptLayout.pdf

I have also been advised by Michael Cove, head screenwriter of Bearcage Productions- that you should avoid putting descriptions of tone of voice (sweetly) (sarcastically)..etc over dialogue because its up to an actor how they want to interpret the character, and it gets them excited if they can put their own spin on it, rather than you doing the work for them, because who says you know the best way to do something? I was also told not to put description locations, or too many clothing/appearance descriptions in (unless they are crucial)- because again, you want the staff producing your movie to have creative license, get excited and put their own spin on things.

Hope this helps people  

You should tell your teacher that on a forum you went to someone said he was wrong to teach using this format...

http://www.screenaustralia.gov.au/documents/SA_publications/IG/SuggScriptLayout.pdf

Tell him one of the moderators on this forum said he should be teaching this format...

http://www.oscars.org/awards/nicholl/scriptsample.pdf

He is welcome to email me if he wants to discuss it.  My email address is in my profile.

The advice from Michael Cove was sound. Follow it.

Jordan, hello. Never afraid to offer my opinion, so here goes.

Why would you care what the actors think? And I don't intend that as mean spirited. Likewise, why would you care about production staff, and what serves them as far as breaking up slugs...another thing we sometimes hear?

They have their jobs, we have ours. By the time they get their work, the script has been bought. How they interpret the role is between them and the director. Best of luck to them.

Our job is to convince someone reading the script that this would make a great film. That's it. Everything that aids that purpose...good. Anything else, who cares?

So the challenge is to make sure the reader sees the story the way you want him to see it. Now, if you fill your script with too many adverbs and actor directions, it's a mistake, but not because you annoy the actors. It's because it makes for a less efficient read. You can annoy the reader. Which is never good.

However, if you need, in certain spots, to do those things to help put the reader in the story, to make sure things are clear...IMO...do it.

This applies to other things as well, such as "unfilmables", mini-slugs, and what I call sequence links, such as LATER or CONTINUOUS. Worry about the reader, no one else.

This is how it's done in pro scripts that I've read. Try to get your hands on recently optioned scripts. And then do what makes sense to you. Best of luck!