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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Screenwriting Discussion    Screenwriting Class  ›  Use of subculture slang Moderators: George Willson
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Demento
Posted: February 20th, 2015, 8:32am Report to Moderator
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Hey, guys.

I just finished a 120 + page "vomit draft", a story set in the world of prowrestling. Now for those that don't know prowrestling is its own subculture. They have their own slang, etiquette and so on. I've read a lot of books on the subject and I'm informed on how this subculture works.

Reading the script over, I see that I've used a lot of slang, terms that might not be understood by a common reader. How should I tackle this?

Should I leave it as is? Let the reader figure it out from the context of the conversations?
Should I add a glossary page at the start explaining the terms?
Should I add explanations in parenthesis next to the terms used?
Should I try to avoid such terms, while risking sounding not as authentic?

There are about or more than 10 terms I think a reader that has no prior knowledge of prowrestling will miss, or get confused about.

Opinions?

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Demento  -  February 20th, 2015, 9:57am
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bert
Posted: February 20th, 2015, 9:21am Report to Moderator
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Readers respect authenticity -- and research -- when it shows.  Far too few writers care to bother with such things.

There are few questions today that cannot be answered in 10 seconds on Google.  A genuinely interested reader will correct any confusion themselves, then appreciate the fact that you've got it right (if, in fact, you do).

Ditch the glossary idea as clutter.  I can think of no way to do it that would not seem pretentious, and that strikes me as a quality that feels particularly out of place in a script about pro wrestling.


Hey, it's my tiny, little IMDb!
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AnthonyCawood
Posted: February 20th, 2015, 9:32am Report to Moderator
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Not sure of the 'best' answer here Demento, but I wonder what they did for The Wrestler?

Also, just thinking it through, won't an audience have the same issue? So maybe option four shoud be considered for the initial spec?

Anthony


Anthony Cawood - Award winning screenwriter
Available Short screenplays - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/short-scripts
Available Feature screenplays - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/feature-film-scripts/
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DustinBowcot
Posted: February 20th, 2015, 9:32am Report to Moderator
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What would be better, is to somehow cleverly weave the translations into the story. If you can't, then don't worry about it... but if it concerns you then there are ways you can weave it into the story, IMO.
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Ledbetter
Posted: February 20th, 2015, 9:42am Report to Moderator
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If you don’t think it works DEMENTO, then I’m coming after you on Sunday night.

You hear me?

You can’t hide behind that script forever.

And on Sunday night, the world will know what kind a writer you really are.

You’re going DOWN Demento. You hear me?

That was fun…

Shawn…..><
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Demento
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Quoted from bert
There are few questions today that cannot be answered in 10 seconds on Google.  A genuinely interested reader will correct any confusion themselves, then appreciate the fact that you've got it right (if, in fact, you do).


Question is, is it going to annoy the reader having to close the script, open google, look it up, then close it, then open in up again...


Quoted from bert
Ditch the glossary idea as clutter.  I can think of no way to do it that would not seem pretentious, and that strikes me as a quality that feels particularly out of place in a script about pro wrestling.


It's actually a very serious story. I know people think prowrestling and think of it as a joke, but there are interesting stories that can be told in that world.


Quoted from AnthonyCawood
Not sure of the 'best' answer here Demento, but I wonder what they did for The Wrestler?


They didn't use too many terms. My story goes more in-depth about how prowrestling works behind the scenes.


Quoted from Dustin
What would be better, is to somehow cleverly weave the translations into the story. If you can't, then don't worry about it... but if it concerns you then there are ways you can weave it into the story, IMO.


There are too many terms to try and do this. It wouldn't sound natural.

Here is an example of a prowrestling glossary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_professional_wrestling_terms


Quoted from Ledbetter
And on Sunday night, the world will know what kind a writer you really are.

You're going DOWN Demento. You hear me?


Talk is cheap, Shawn. I hope you back it up in the ring, where it counts!
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DS
Posted: February 20th, 2015, 10:43am Report to Moderator
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I agree with bert. The glossary sounds really patronizing, especially in a world where it takes seconds to look up the meaning.

Imo you shouldn't dumb it down either and underestimate the audiences' desire to learn about a world that they're not familiar with. The magic is getting it right so the movie is understandable even if you're not familiar with wrestling, but there's always going to be stuff that will go over the unknowing viewer/reader's head until they look it up or come into contact with it. And then they can go "hey, that was in that screenplay/movie, it must have been pretty authentic". You said you had 10-ish instances, to me, for 120 pages, that doesn't sound even close to overdone.

In the end, the most useful readers to you will always be the ones who know something about the world theirselves or the ones who expect you to be the one that knows something about it, whether it be in the form of someone in the wrestling business that it could garner interest in seeing it on the screen or producers/executives. No?
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DustinBowcot
Posted: February 20th, 2015, 10:55am Report to Moderator
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You're surely not going to use all of them? Using too much slang risks losing viewers, IMO.

I think some of the important ones could be fed in, maybe a romantic moment with a girl, some of the holds could be mentioned. If you must use it and you know that it risks losing viewers and readers then you have to think of something that will help educate them to your world, otherwise your market shrinks. That's not good.

Just my opinion, as you know.
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Demento
Posted: February 20th, 2015, 11:06am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from DustinBowcot
You're surely not going to use all of them? Using too much slang risks losing viewers, IMO.

I think some of the important ones could be fed in, maybe a romantic moment with a girl, some of the holds could be mentioned. If you must use it and you know that it risks losing viewers and readers then you have to think of something that will help educate them to your world, otherwise your market shrinks. That's not good.

Just my opinion, as you know.


I agree, that I might lose readers. Problem is wrestlers really do use a lot of slang. They usually even put things outside of wrestling in pro-wrestling terms. So if the characters don't speak like they are in their own "wrestling bubble" among each other then it won't sound authentic to someone familiar with the culture.
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LC
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I'm at the bottom of your target audience given I know near nothing about pro-wrestling and don't have much interest in it and yet I watched both 'The Wrestler' and 'Warrior' (yes I know the latter is MMA).

The reason I watched, apart from the brawn is that they are essentially character driven pieces. Look at Rocky - its fan-base is not isolated to males of a certain age. Without the 'story' we're just watching two guys knock each other about - not my bag at all. You get what I'm saying - if your story is revetting enough I'm in, no matter if I understand all the wrestling jargon or not.

The glossary you provided - most of those terms appear that they would be understood within context. Even I'd get most of them I reckon and what I didn't get I'm pretty sure would add to the 'feel' of the script/film.

You've said yourself you want to be careful not to overdue it at risk of confusing the audience. You also don't want it to appear that you looked up Wiki for the terms and plonked them into your script. The fact you're concerned at all makes me wonder if you know you're tipping the balance.

I'd love to read a bit.

Can you post a small sample - perhaps a bit where you're wondering if it's overkill. .



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eldave1
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Quoted from Demento
Hey, guys.

I just finished a 120 + page "vomit draft", a story set in the world of prowrestling. Now for those that don't know prowrestling is its own subculture. They have their own slang, etiquette and so on. I've read a lot of books on the subject and I'm informed on how this subculture works.

Reading the script over, I see that I've used a lot of slang, terms that might not be understood by a common reader. How should I tackle this?

Should I leave it as is? Let the reader figure it out from the context of the conversations?
Should I add a glossary page at the start explaining the terms?

Should I add explanations in parenthesis next to the terms used?
Should I try to avoid such terms, while risking sounding not as authentic?

There are about or more than 10 terms I think a reader that has no prior knowledge of prowrestling will miss, or get confused about.

Opinions?


In terms of things that I would not do - adding a glossary would be at the top. It's hard enough to get folks interested in reading a script, let alone a glossary (almost like giving them homework).

The issue is not unique to wrestling (Cops, Accountants, Lawyers, Doctors, Baseball Players, Hair Dressers, etc.) all have their own set of slang. I'm not sure a script would get much of a read if the writer relied upon that slang to establish authenticity.

I think step one is to figure out of the you are using which ones are intuitive and which ones are not. For example (from the link you posted), in wrestling:

"A Team" means the star of the show. Folks outside of wrestling will interpret that pretty easily. Go ahead and use it.

"Blading" is the term used for a wrestler intentionally cutting themselves to produce blood. I would not use that term without some explanation either in dialogue or action as most would not understand the term by itself. But that should not be a difficult task. e.g.,

CHARACTER slips a razor blade underneath his wristband.

            CHARACTER
I'm the best blader on the circuit.

Long winded way of saying - if you are writing a script simply for wrestlers to read - go to town with the jargon/slang. Conversely, if you want folks outside of wrestling to be interested, use the slang/jargon in some context that enables understanding by the reader. My opinion anyway - good luck.









My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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Demento
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A lot of these terms are ingrained in the way wrestlers speak, so I have to put them in.

Few examples of more common used terms.

Job - to lose a match. Example: "I did a job for you in 88 in New York, don't you forget." This means one wrestler agreed to lay down and get pinned by another in a match.

Bump - fall. When someone hits the mat. Example: "I took a hard bump on the apron that night". He took a bad fall outside the ring.

Over - to become popular. Example: "I was so over back in those days". This means he was really popular. He got great crowd reactions.

Pop - positive crowd reaction. Example: "Got a nice pop there at the end." Got a big crowd reaction.

Jobber - a wrestler that serves as enhancement talent to other wrestlers that are trying to "get over". Simply put, someone that is brought in to lose to another wrestler in an attempt to make the other one more popular. He mainly gets beat on in the match. Example: "I use to be a jobber when I started, but I slowly moved up the card".

Gorilla - area behind the curtain where wrestlers come out to the ring. Example: "Where did you see him?" - "He was in Gorilla five minutes ago".

Tweener - a wrestler that is not a good guy (a Babyface) or a bad guy (a Heel), he's something inbetween. Example: "I was a tweener down in Texas for like 2 years". He was a neutral like character. Anti-hero like tendencies.

Potato - to hit someone for real. Example: "We were in a match and he started to potato me for no reason". One wrestler started hitting the other one with real, legit shots.

.................


Quoted from LC
I'm at the bottom of your target audience given I know near nothing about pro-wrestling and don't have much interest in it and yet I watched both 'The Wrestler' and 'Warrior' (yes I know the latter is MMA).

The reason I watched, apart from the brawn  is that they are essentially character driven pieces. Look at Rocky - its fan-base is not isolated to males of a certain age. Without the 'story' we're just watching two guys knock each other about - not my bag at all. You get what I'm saying - if your story is revetting enough I'm in, no matter if I understand all the wrestling jargon or not.


Actually, I think my story is more complicated than both The Wrestler and Warrior. Which in reality are pretty simple and cliche movies. Not that, that is always a bad thing. Of course the wrestling is a backdrop for another story. It's set in the world of pro-wrestling. But still, it's written in a way to present pro-wrestling.

Sometimes when I hear people play the "character driven" card, it comes off like they're saying I don't like movies about boxing/wrestling/mma, but I liked this one because it wasn't really about those things it was "character driven". This one had depth outside the world it was set in. Like they're looking for an excuse why they liked a movie about mma/boxing/wrestling. When in reality to tell an authentic story set in those worlds, it has to be like Rocky, Raging Bull, The Wrestler, Warrior. Because those are the characters that fill those worlds. They're interesting. So, are their worlds/sports. Just most people associate them with brain dead action movies.

You can pick thousands of combat athletes and make great movies out of each of their stories.


Quoted from eldave1
Long winded way of saying - if you are writing a script simply for wrestlers to read - go to town with the jargon/slang. Conversely, if you want folks outside of wrestling to be interested, use the slang/jargon in some context that enables understanding by the reader.


I agree that there should be a balance. But I would feel that I wasn't doing the characters justice if I didn't make them speak the way I think they should.
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eldave1
Posted: February 20th, 2015, 9:10pm Report to Moderator
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Okay - at least IMO:


Quoted Text
Job - to lose a match. Example: "I did a job for you in 88 in New York, don't you forget." This means one wrestler agreed to lay down and get pinned by another in a match.


Add context. e.g.,

CHARACTER 1
"I did a job for you in 88 in New York, don't you forget."

CHARACTER 2
No one forgets when someone takes a fall for them.


Quoted Text
Bump - fall. When someone hits the mat. Example: "I took a hard bump on the apron that night". He took a bad fall outside the ring.


Fine as is - meaning is fairly intuitive.


Quoted Text
Over - to become popular. Example: "I was so over back in those days". This means he was really popular. He got great crowd reactions.


Add context. e.g.,

CHARACTER 1
"I was so over back in those days".

CHARACTER 2
Yeah, you were more popular than anyone.


Quoted Text
Pop - positive crowd reaction. Example: "Got a nice pop there at the end." Got a big crowd reaction.


Fine as is - meaning is fairly intuitive.

Those are examples just to make the point. For the other slang you posted I recommend:


Quoted Text
Jobber


Add context.


Quoted Text
Gorilla


Add context.


Quoted Text
Tweener

Fine as is - meaning is fairly intuitive.


Quoted Text
Potato


Add context.

In other words - it is not the use of slang that is the issue. The issue is if it has little chance of being understood by the reader - I recommend you include something that helps them understand it.


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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Demento
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Quoted from eldave1

In other words - it is not the use of slang that is the issue. The issue is if it has little chance of being understood by the reader - I recommend you include something that helps them understand it.


Yeah, but if I go chasing after adding context to a lot of terms or trying to add further explanations, I cut a lot of the natural feel to the dialogue. It would come off sloppy and poorly constructed, artificial. IMO.

I do appreciate the effort you put in your post, thanks.
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LC
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Quoted from Demento
Actually, I think my story is more complicated than both The Wrestler and Warrior. Which in reality are pretty simple and cliche movies. Not that, that is always a bad thing. Of course the wrestling is a backdrop for another story. It's set in the world of pro-wrestling. But still, it's written in a way to present pro-wrestling.

Complicated in what way? Without the 'story' within, we may as well just watch boxing or wrestling on a Sunday afternoon or watch a doco.


Quoted from Demento
Sometimes when I hear people play the "character driven" card, it comes off like they're saying I don't like movies about boxing/wrestling/mma, but I liked this one because it wasn't really about those things it was "character driven".

What is a movie without character and story? I really don't like them btw, in general, but watching some of them has proven if you give me a story about characters I care about and they just happen to have a life in the ring then I might just enjoy it if the story is engaging enough and I might actually start to understand and enjoy boxing/wrestling as a result. Maybe...

Eastwood did it cleverly, or one could say he manipulated the audience well, with Million Dollar Baby (what a bloody miserable film that is in the end) by making the lead a female. In doing so it appealed not just to an all male audience. Not to mention she got an oscar didn't she?


Quoted from Demento
Like they're looking for an excuse why they liked a movie about mma/boxing/wrestling. When in reality to tell an authentic story set in those worlds, it has to be like Rocky, Raging Bull, The Wrestler, Warrior. Because those are the characters that fill those worlds. They're interesting. So, are their worlds/sports. Just most people associate them with brain dead action movies.

Your first point is spot on, however I'm not looking for an excuse I'm looking for a reason to see the movie in the first place. With regard to your last point - Rambo etc. came out after Rocky so I'm not sure that's even relevant unless we're talking cross-purposes. We don't associate De Niro or any of those other cast members with brain dead action movies so I fail to see the point you're making there.


Quoted from Demento
You can pick thousands of combat athletes and make great movies out of each of their stories.

Right. Sounds true enough. So what's the appeal/selling point of your pro-wrestling story - given it's not a documentary? It's not is it?


Quoted from Demento
I agree that there should be a balance. But I would feel that I wasn't doing the characters justice if I didn't make them speak the way I think they should.


Back to your main question:

Glossary? Explanations? No. Not imh.

Most of the examples you gave just now (above) sounded pretty natural to my ear in the context they were said, and like I said - I know nothing (about wrestling).

You also sound pretty set on what you're doing based on your replies to suggestions (despite querying it) so just do it the way you feel you should instinctively.

No doubt you'll get feedback when it's completed and then you can go back and revise it, if need be.



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Demento
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Quoted from LC

Complicated in what way? Without the 'story' within, we may as well just watch boxing or wrestling on a Sunday afternoon or watch a doco.


I meant in terms of plot, themes, ect. What I should have said, is that is isn't as cliched. The story in the script is device to present a world that isn't really put on film that much, with one modern exception. That's not to say that the story itself is thin or not as important. But to me, it is an excuse to show off the world of pro-wrestling. Although religion is another heavy theme in the story.


Quoted from LC
Your first point is spot on, however I'm not looking for an excuse I'm looking for a reason to see the movie in the first place. With regard to your last point - Rambo etc. came out after Rocky so I'm not sure that's even relevant unless we're talking cross-purposes. We don't associate De Niro or any of those other cast members with brain dead action movies so I fail to see the point you're making there.


My point was that I often read or hear when people say they liked a movie about let's say boxing, they say that they liked it because it was "character driven" and not really about boxing.

Instance, Million Dollar Baby. They'll say, it was not really about boxing. Or Raging Bull (hence De Niro), great movie but it was a character driven drama and not really about boxing. Well, in reality those films like most movies are about a few things and one of the main ones is boxing. So, they are boxing movies. When I hear people say "those were character driven dramas" I get the impression that people are looking for an excuse to like a movie about boxing. Like it's some guilty pleasure to like it. Boxing is just an example here, it could pertain to a number of things.

This is the impression I GENERALLY get. It might not be true in your case. As you can see in my post I was speaking in general, about my impression when I hear that. Even though you were quoted, it was just what got my thought going.


Quoted from LC
Right. Sounds true enough. So what's the appeal/selling point of your pro-wrestling story - given it's not a documentary? It's not is it?


Like all, the story. But a story set in a unique setting we rarely see and that few are educated about. The setting itself can bring an element of freshness as it's something new.


Quoted from LC
Glossary? Explanations? No. Not imh.

Most of the examples you gave just now (above) sounded pretty natural to my ear in the context they were said, and like I said - I know nothing (about wrestling).

You also sound pretty set on what you're doing based on your replies to suggestions (despite querying it) so just do it the way you feel you should instinctively.


Not really set yet. I still don't think the one page Glossary is THAT bad of an idea. Instead of someone closing the script and opening Google, like some have suggested they can just go to page #2 and see an explanation. Certainly that's a more convenient option.

Toning it down or rephasing some of the dialogue is an option, I'm still considering.

It's actually encouraging to read that two people that read the examples above, can follow the context with no problem. That's a cue that maybe I should leave things as they are.

I just wanted to hear people's opinions on the matter. They are helpful. I don't think it's stubborn if I don't conform to the first few I hear, it's not a bad thing if the discussion keeps on going as this is a forum and that's its goal, IMO.
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LC
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Never conform, Demento.  

I look forward to reading some of it, at the very least your new take on it all sounds intriguing.


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Leegion
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A gallery/codex of information is unnecessary in regards to what the characters are saying.  I'm sure with a quick browse on Google, they'd understand what the terms "Face" and "Heel" mean in the wrestling world.

I've spoken to wrestlers myself and they don't use that much slang when they talk.  I met Mark Calaway (The Undertaker) and he spoke in a natural way.  I also met Paul Levesque (Triple H) and Paul Wight (Big Show) at an autograph signing at a Live Event in the UK a while ago, and neither of them really spoke much slang when they talked with me.

I'd say, use the slang, but don't go overboard with it.  Too much will turn readers/viewers off, but too little will make big time wrestling fans say "this isn't as authentic as it should be".
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dead by dawn
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I agree with Bert.  When I write my scripts, I tend to use a lot of slang, but I never thought of adding a glossary to the front page or something like that.  That feels too "amateurish" (or maybe another word would be better for that).

Some of the examples eldave1 gave you for the context part were kinda corny -- no defense eldave1  

Demento, as far as the use of slang in anything, a wrestling movie or a gangster movie or a hard partying teen movie, whatever it may be, is this:  just make it sound natural.

You never want it to sound too try-hard, like you're in the reader's face, overloading them with "hey, look at me!  I know cool hip words!!!!!!11111" or "hey, look at me!!! I know how to write edgy shit!!!121@"

And honestly, wrestling slang isn't that hard to get after a while, so I think you're in the clear.  More to the point, I'm kinda interested in reading what you got.  There's not many good "dark wrestling" movies/scripts to choose from lol besides The Wrestler, so it would be fun to give it a look.
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eldave1
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Quoted from dead by dawn
Some of the examples eldave1 gave you for the context part were kinda corny -- no defense eldave1  



None taken - I wasn't giving him specific lines or actions to include - just threw them in for illustrative purposes. The point being, IMO anyway, part of the art of screenwriting is to find effective ways to communicate to the reader even when specific slang or jargon is used.


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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Demento
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Seems like most people indicate that they wouldn't have a problem following the context with the slang included.

I think I'm just gonna leave it like that, let the reader deduce himself whatever meaning is not obvious through the context and Google

Thanks for your opinions, guys and gals.
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Max
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Ain't nobody write like that, bruh.

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I'm gonna be straight with you fam, I'm a huge wrestling fan... I never miss an episode of Raw/Smackdown, I watch every single PPV and I'm a frequent subscriber to the WWE Network.

I also dip my toes in a little bit of NJPW, TNA, NXT, ROH ect.

It depends what audience you're trying to hit, the casual viewing audience may not be familiar with the terms "job" or "jobber".

Perhaps maybe say something like "Hey, I laid down for you"... it's more clear for everybody then. What's the depth of the slang btw? We using terms like - face, heel, tweener, jobber, botch, names of particular moves?
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Demento
Posted: May 7th, 2015, 8:30am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Max
It depends what audience you're trying to hit, the casual viewing audience may not be familiar with the terms "job" or "jobber".

Perhaps maybe say something like "Hey, I laid down for you"... it's more clear for everybody then. What's the depth of the slang btw? We using terms like - face, heel, tweener, jobber, botch, names of particular moves?


No wrestling moves names, mainly standard wrestling terms - pop, cheap heat, get-over, work. Stuff like that. Honestly, right now, I can't even recall what was in it.

Funny thing about me, I've watched wrestling on and off for years but I have never watched the WWE, never seen an episode of RAW. But I've watched pretty much everything else. WCW, TNA, ROH, PWG, New Japan, All Japan, NOAH, Zero 1, CMLL, AAA. I use to even check out Shimmer (female wrestling promotion) back in the day.

I understand why people don't like wrestling, and really... it's really hard to get into it at an older age, you need to grow into it so you have an understanding on how to look at it and not take it as seriously. Look at it as a TV Show of sort, which it is. Always found the backstage politics and the inner workings of it much more interesting than the actual TV product.

Anyway,  I moved on to different ideas. I sent the script out 2 months ago. Got like 6 requests from production companies. Haven't heard anything since.
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Max
Posted: May 7th, 2015, 10:43am Report to Moderator
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Ain't nobody write like that, bruh.

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Quoted from Demento


No wrestling moves names, mainly standard wrestling terms - pop, cheap heat, get-over, work. Stuff like that. Honestly, right now, I can't even recall what was in it.

Funny thing about me, I've watched wrestling on and off for years but I have never watched the WWE, never seen an episode of RAW. But I've watched pretty much everything else. WCW, TNA, ROH, PWG, New Japan, All Japan, NOAH, Zero 1, CMLL, AAA. I use to even check out Shimmer (female wrestling promotion) back in the day.

I understand why people don't like wrestling, and really... it's really hard to get into it at an older age, you need to grow into it so you have an understanding on how to look at it and not take it as seriously. Look at it as a TV Show of sort, which it is. Always found the backstage politics and the inner workings of it much more interesting than the actual TV product.

Anyway,  I moved on to different ideas. I sent the script out 2 months ago. Got like 6 requests from production companies. Haven't heard anything since.


I thought about writing a wrestling thing as well, would've been about the British wrestling circuit tho as opposed to the American stuff.

I'm writing something at the moment called "Grimehouse", it too is kind of going to be... entrenched in slang - blud, fam, innit, doe, dat, my man, next hype lol ect.

Oh well, good luck with your future projects.
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