Good arguments on both sides here.

I guess the bottom line for me is this - there are some writers who know that what they're writing is going to get filmed, whether it's because they are in demand and it's a spec, or they were hired to write something specific. They can do whatever they want.

So don't compare yourself to them. Write according to the rules. Why take the chance? I don't think any of us realize what a CHORE it is for people to read a spec script. The bigger the person is in the industry, the more of a chore it is. Because they are busy, and they can busy themselves for the rest of their lives with Grade-A eat off the floor scripts from established writers.

So write according to the rules. The "no" pile does exist. And most readers have a page 1 and page 10 threshold.

So once you write according to the rules? Then on the second pass, write what you FEEL. If you feel that an aside is going to place the image you want to place in the reader's head? Then do it. But don't overdo it. And pretty soon you'll be developing your own style. And setting yourself apart from the crowd.

I have read scripts that are in pre-production that I have thought were bad, and I have seen spec scripts that are not getting a sniff that I've been envious of. It's like chess - once you master the rules, there are an infinite number of levels.

So write according to the rules. And then break them, within reason, in your own style. As long as you can write, and have a story worth reading, writing this way should set you apart and get you the reads you need.

I was reading a script on another site yesterday and it was unbelievable how good it was - but it had fragmented sentences (there was a purpose to them), orphans, an offbeat cover page -- HELL, IT DIDN'T EVEN INCLUDE A FADE IN TO START WITH!!!  And a couple of reviewers focused more on those oddities than the story and characters itself, which blew me away.  And the shits and giggles about it all was that the scripts those reviewers had written were very sub-par (in my personal opinion).

So there's a paradox for you -- can a writer who is not overly proficient in writing (notice I didn't say bad, because I would never call anyone a bad writer) be a good reviewer? I think most people's reaction would be no, but that's because they equate the quality of a review with the quality of the reviewer's writing. Maybe there's some correlation, but for me, like Pia mentioned, story is king, and all of us, regardless of how good our writing is, know what appeals to us in a story and can react to that accordingly.

And as I've personally experienced, there are plenty of people who do not like my "writing", but all it takes is one person to like my script for it to lead to something.  And at the end of the day, that one person's opinion is all that matters to me.  Damn, I wish I had ended this paragraph with an orphan.  

Gary

If you bring a script to a site full of writers where they can offer an opinion, then you will get comments on the writing. No harm in that, but just take the review for what it is worth. If you don't learn anything then move on. If you do learn something, be thankful.

Quoted from DustinBowcot If you bring a script to a site full of writers where they can offer an opinion, then you will get comments on the writing. No harm in that, but just take the review for what it is worth. If you don't learn anything then move on. If you do learn something, be thankful.

Very well put, Dustin.  I agree 100%.

It's funny, actually, because so many times (and even recently) someone will disagree with what I brought up and then make many of the changes I mentioned anyway.

It's all free advice here, so be thankful for whatever you get.

Quoted from Gary in Houston So there's a paradox for you -- can a writer who is not overly proficient in writing (notice I didn't say bad, because I would never call anyone a bad writer) be a good reviewer? I think most people's reaction would be no, but that's because they equate the quality of a review with the quality of the reviewer's writing. Maybe there's some correlation, but for me, like Pia mentioned, story is king, and all of us, regardless of how good our writing is, know what appeals to us in a story and can react to that accordingly.

It's like everything in life. As an example, I play a lot of tournament poker. There are dudes who know every rule (and do not hesitate to point them out), the statistical probability of every outcome and yet they suck at playing poker. i.e., like poker, screenwriting has a science aspect and an art aspect. The science is easier, can be learned by anyone who cares to. The art - not so much. That being said - I'll take any reviews - format based, story based, positive, negative et al because they are (a) free, (b) have value - even if they have elements I disagree with. My only real pet peeve is the this scripts sucks because it does not follow this or that particular rule or there was an honest but nowhere near fatal mistake somewhere. Those reviews should just say - hey - you made a mistake here. They should never offer a conclusion or conjecture on the script as a whole. Just my opinion.

Here's something else to consider...

Back in the day, the SS crew actually read feature scripts in their entirety quite routinely.  That rarely happens now and only a few still do this, usually because they're friends with the writer or owe him or her a read.

Why is this?  I don't know, but it's the way it seems to be.

With that in mind, for me, at least, it's very clear that what's on the first page, first 5, and first 10 is incredibly important, and a very "easy" reason why peeps only read a few pages of features.

It's really the same philosophy I bring into OWC's.  If there are problems early on, I have to assume those problems will continue throughout the script.

And when i say "problems", I'm not simply referring to typos, grammar, and other "mistakes".  I'm referring to everything in how the script looks and reads.  When a script is anonymous and i see "we see" this and "we hear" that, I assume it's a writer who doesn't know any better, and chances are very good I'm out long before I get to the meat of the story.

We can all agree to disagree, but for my money, I want my scripts to shine, look polished and professional as often as possible.

Enjoy the weekend, everyone!

Quoted Text Back in the day, the SS crew actually read feature scripts in their entirety quite routinely.  That rarely happens now and only a few still do this, usually because they're friends with the writer or owe him or her a read. Why is this?  I don't know, but it's the way it seems to be.

I wasn't here back in the day. I do agree that features get very little interest. I assume that is entirely a factor of the time (effort) it takes to get through a feature vs. a short. I try to balance that by page count - that is, I'll generally read the first 15 pages of a feature and give it the same effort as I would a short and limit my comments to those 15 pages.  

Quoted Text With that in mind, for me, at least, it's very clear that what's on the first page, first 5, and first 10 is incredibly important, and a very "easy" reason why peeps only read a few pages of features.

Again, I think that is a false paradigm. it is merely a matter of time and effort. I would throw in that it is sometimes hard to tell if a review is even going to be read since several post scripts and you never hear from them. So there are times I will read entire features just for my own development and entertainment not post notes if I think they are going to go into a vacuum.

Quoted Text It's really the same philosophy I bring into OWC's.  If there are problems early on, I have to assume those problems will continue throughout the script.

I think it is the wrong philosophy - for me anyway. I have probably read more than a hundred OWCs entires by now. Some start bad and end great. Some start great and end bad.  This is particularly true of OWC scripts where there is little time to apply all of the spit shine to the script. So I am assuming that all of the scripts will have easily fixed formatting scars and I am looking for story gems.  

Quoted Text And when i say "problems", I'm not simply referring to typos, grammar, and other "mistakes".  I'm referring to everything in how the script looks and reads.  When a script is anonymous and i see "we see" this and "we hear" that, I assume it's a writer who doesn't know any better, and chances are very good I'm out long before I get to the meat of the story.

I think you are missing out on a lot of good stuff as a result. Admittedly, I have received some very helpful comments from you on my anonymous OWC scripts. I have also received this:

T

Quoted Text he good news... Peeps seem to enjoy this for some reason. The not so good news... References to "Frankenstein" are incorrect - Frankenstein was the Doctor, not the monster, but many peeps seem to confuse this. The bad news... I'm out after the first passage.  I cannot stand this smarmy style. Obviously a pisser, with zero effort to meet the actual challenge. I will not waste anymore time on this garbage. Grade... D-

Now, by this time I was no longer a newbie - so I took the comments with a grain of salt. That being said, I thought to myself I was glad that this was not someone just starting. They're being told that their work is garbage after one passage. And this - in a challenge that really is a learning tool.

i.e., the danger of concluding "I'm out" - "this sucks" - or whatever is that (a) there is a good chance that your test sample is so small that your conclusion is unwarranted and (b) it simply ain't necessary.

IMO - perfectly okay to say - too many typos, would work better without WE, scene heading wrong, etc. Why not just leave it at that? You've given some valuable information to someone without the unnecessary acerbic conclusion on the entire script. You must know that the easiest thing for writers to fix are the format issues. The real challenges are in dialogue, character arc, plot points et al. You can help newbies with the science aspect of this without undermining their desire for the art. I don't know you - but I assume you are a good guy. Just comment that way.

Quoted Text Enjoy the weekend, everyone!

You too, mate.

If the script is a page turner and keeps the reader interested, it's a good script.
Grammar should be as good as possible, but it's not a book we're writing here that's going out on sale to the public, it's a screenplay, a blueprint for a movie.

If producers used the idea of this "perfect script", I reckon the majority of our fav movies would have never been made, thrown out because of "a grammar/typo/misued parenthetical" mistake on page 1".

Writers should make sure their material is as clear as possible, aimed towards people that would want to invest their time in order to make the script a movie. Writers should not aim to please other writers/ wannabee critics.

I believe most of the so called "experts" on screenplay writing have no idea when it comes to what a movie producer is looking for, they just like to pretend they do.  

Out by page 1 because of formatting?  Yeah, if it's just a blatant mess.

I never really pay attention to the occasional "we see" or "cut to".  It doesn't bother me.  

What takes me out by page 1?  Robotic writing... and this goes for amateur & pro... mostly amateur.  Sometimes the formatting is perfect, nothing crazy going on.  But the writing is robotic, bland.  No style, no voice, no conflict.

I finished a feature on here a few minutes ago, written by someone not signed up to the board.  It wasn't the best script, but the opening grabbed me, had me cracking up, had me wanting more.  I could tell the writer was having fun the whole time.  He had a voice.  He took normally paper thin characters and made them feel like real people.  He also had a "cut to" on page 1.  But it was a page turner for me.

Also recently read a horror fan-fic that had "cut to" everywhere.  Besides that, the formatting was on point and so was everything else.  It was the best horror script I ever read.  It's a shame it will never be made into a movie for this one particular franchise.  Bert, I think you would get a kick out of it, if you're reading this and want to check it out, I could send you a link.

Quoted from dead by dawn It was the best horror script I ever read.  It's a shame it will never be made into a movie for this one particular franchise.  Bert, I think you would get a kick out of it, if you're reading this and want to check it out, I could send you a link.

Or you could post a link here so the rest of us aren't left wondering.

R

Quoted from dead by dawn It's a shame it will never be made into a movie for this one particular franchise.  Bert, I think you would get a kick out of it, if you're reading this and want to check it out, I could send you a link.

Quoted from rendevous Or you could post a link here so the rest of us aren't left wondering.

Ha...If he is calling me out, Ren, I suspect he is speaking about the "Phantasm" franchise, for which he and I share a strange affinity. The films are a hot mess of brilliance.

Shoot me the link, thanks.  I'll have look.

StevenClark - great discussion you started here! I've written amateur fiction most of my life but started learning screencraft only about 5 years ago, and I definitely relate to the feelings of being ridiculed as you get up to speed on things. At my first screenwriting class we read 10 pages of my fabulous romantic comedy and afterward the teacher adjusted her papers uncomfortably and said, "So -- this is a comedy?"  Not a good sign! You have to just stiff-arm the haters like Robert Stack stiff-armed the Hari Krishnas in Airplane, and keep going!

And as someone here said, you do have to feel for the professional readers who slog through so many bad scripts, that's got to be an awful job. When I started reading 2-3 scripts a week just for practice I found it amazing how quickly you too start skimming past things - imagine someone reading 20-25 a week! Read "L.A. Story" by Steve Martin - there's nothing to it on the page! Or then "Elizabethtown" by Cameron Crowe - holy crap that guys writes a novel on every page! Both are professionals, both completely different from each other, yet both work.

I try to keep learning the craft as I go, get to know the best-practices/rules by reading others' work, but still try to stay true to my voice and my vision as much as I can.  Just know that any true teacher would never tell you to quit or belittle a sincere effort to tell a story, so take that trash to the curb brother!

Tim,

Truth. And even though what happened to me was just a hater hating, the lesson did not go unnoticed.

Steve