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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Screenwriting Discussion    Screenwriting Class  ›  Top 5 things you feel are important in the first 1 Moderators: George Willson
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TonyDionisio
Posted: February 1st, 2017, 12:25pm Report to Moderator
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I was wondering what you guys value above everything else when you crack open an amateur script. Basically, what do you require before page 5 and then also page 10 before you close the pdf for good and move on. Assume you've already been hooked from a logline.

1.) A promised main character introduced.
2.) Promised goal revealed.
3.) Antagonist defined.
4.) Set building.
5.) Inciting incident.

I've noticed a lot of amateur scripts open with a creative description of the land which could take about 2-3 paragraphs. Then characters are introduced for the purpose of "talking" to each other about things which may have nothing at all to do with the story. By the time we are at this point, almost 10 pages go by.

So basically, what MUST you see (no compromises) within the first 5 and then first 10 pages to keep on reading?
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Dreamscale
Posted: February 1st, 2017, 12:37pm Report to Moderator
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Good, strong, smart writing.

Well set scenes.

A story/plot that makes sense and make me want more.
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Female Gaze
Posted: February 1st, 2017, 12:48pm Report to Moderator
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I look for a good story first and foremost.  Then a protag(s). Then inciting incident. I also look at things philisophiclly so I'm wiling to wait around a bit for things to start.

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Female Gaze  -  February 1st, 2017, 1:30pm
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Dreamscale
Posted: February 1st, 2017, 12:58pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Female Gaze
What is your people's aversion to dialogue?
I have never seen a group of people so turned-off by dialogue in my life.

Like. what do you think actors do?
They don't just get on set and give each other stolen glances whilst walking around a room.

And, I don't know about ALL directors but I know when I directed and all the people I knew directed, we did not pay attention to the action whatsoever...we made up our own because that's the job of a director.  

Fight coordinator does the fight scenes. Scene designer makes the sets from their own imagining. etc. We need a thread on the realities of working on a set and how it translates from a script.

Anyway, I look for a good story first and foremost.  Then a a protag(s). Then inciting incident. I also look at things philisophiclly so I'm wiling to wait around a bit for things to start.


Who said anything about having an aversion to dialogue?  Personally, I love dialogue heavy scripts and movies, as in reality, dialogue is how characters show real "character".

I assume you're talking about being on set for low/no budget shoots, because if you're not, what you're saying is completely untrue.  Directors do not "make up action".  "Scene designers" (Huh?  Scene designers?  Really?) do not make the sets from their own imaginings.  The look and feel of a real movie is set up long before shooting takes place, and most of the time, it comes from the script.
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Dreamscale
Posted: February 1st, 2017, 1:22pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Female Gaze
My comment about dialogue comes from everyone going 'OMG so much dialogue....' Am I wrong on this front?

Ok, I'm wrong about everything, let me just shut up from now on.


Again, as I said earlier, just because someone or a few peeps say something, don't take that to the bank...they may be clueless as to what good dialogue is, or how much is too much.

Good dialogue is paramount to a good character, IMO.  You can't have a "real" character without "real" dialogue.  So many peeps cannot write good or even decent dialogue to save their lives...literally!

I'm not saying you're wrong about anything, but if you believe in something, than stand by it and don't let what others say, make you think you're wrong.  Although, you definitely could be wrong and sometimes, it takes someone else to show you that.

You get me?

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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: February 1st, 2017, 1:25pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Female Gaze


My comment about dialogue comes from everyone going 'OMG so much dialogue....' Am I wrong on this front?

Ok, I'm wrong about everything, let me just shut up from now on.


It's the old "Show don't tell" rule of thumb.

Film is a visual medium. Generally it is better to show something happening, rather than tell the audience in dialogue.

You saw this in the OWC where the whole story was often told in dialogue, rather than being discovered as we went along. It can make the whole film expositional...almost like a lecture, lacking tension, and also can make it visually static because it becomes just two people stood or sat talking for the entire time.

Dialogue's critically important, of course, to push action, to reveal character and even just to entertain, it just helps to have a think about how some of the information can be told visually.

It's as simple as showing someone digging graves, so we know he's a gravedigger rather than just having him sat down telling someone that he's a gravedigger.
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Steven
Posted: February 1st, 2017, 1:33pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Scar Tissue Films


It's the old "Show don't tell" rule of thumb.

Film is a visual medium. Generally it is better to show something happening, rather than tell the audience in dialogue.

You saw this in the OWC where the whole story was often told in dialogue, rather than being discovered as we went along. It can make the whole film expositional...almost like a lecture, lacking tension, and also can make it visually static because it becomes just two people stood or sat talking for the entire time.

Dialogue's critically important, of course, to push action, to reveal character and even just to entertain, it just helps to have a think about how some of the information can be told visually.

It's as simple as showing someone digging graves, so we know he's a gravedigger rather than just having him sat down telling someone that he's a gravedigger.

What if you're story takes place after something happened, and your characters talk about it? You could either start the story just at the incident, or you could show it to the audience via flashbacks.

If you don't want to show the audience anything at the beginning, you'll have to use dialogue to bring up the incident, then a flashback to show it.

I have a story where a guy is divorced and tries to raise his son. It starts after the divorce, but the events of the divorce will be shown later, but talked about before that.

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Female Gaze
Posted: February 1st, 2017, 1:36pm Report to Moderator
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My theory on dialogue is this...actors can deliver their lines in the most amazing ways. Directors can interpret scenes in a myriad of ways. Set designers or directors can work together to create a scene that seemed like nothing into something. That's all I was saying.
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Dreamscale
Posted: February 1st, 2017, 1:41pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Female Gaze
My theory on dialogue is this...actors can deliver their lines in the most amazing ways. Directors can interpret scenes in a myriad of ways. Set designers or directors can work together to create a scene that seemed like nothing into something. That's all I was saying.


Sure, but understand where that dialogue comes from - a screenwriter.

We've all seen tons and tons of big budget movies in which the dialogue is just God awful...cringe worthy, even.  I always get pissed and wonder why no one read that dialogue, listened to that dialogue, and said, "Hey, wait a minute...this dialogue is terrible!".  

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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: February 1st, 2017, 1:42pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Steven

What if you're story takes place after something happened, and your characters talk about it? You could either start the story just at the incident, or you could show it to the audience via flashbacks.

If you don't want to show the audience anything at the beginning, you'll have to use dialogue to bring up the incident, then a flashback to show it.

I have a story where a guy is divorced and tries to raise his son. It starts after the divorce, but the events of the divorce will be shown later, but talked about before that.



Like all things, it's a rule of thumb, not an absolute.

Whatever works.

In the type of story you are describing, you are risking having a weak narrative drive, you'll have to find some way to compensate for that. That type of story is usually organised more around theme than plot.

One of the problem with films that I've learnt as a director, and as an audience member talking to other audience members is that a large number of people do not absorb information delivered in dialogue.

Showing someone being beaten is much more effective than having someone say "My Daddy used to beat me". Again, it;s just a general rule of thumb, there's always exceptions.
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Steven
Posted: February 1st, 2017, 1:44pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale


Sure, but understand where that dialogue comes from - a screenwriter.

We've all seen tons and tons of big budget movies in which the dialogue is just God awful...cringe worthy, even.  I always get pissed and wonder why no one read that dialogue, listened to that dialogue, and said, "Hey, wait a minute...this dialogue is terrible!".  


Because city-wide CGI destruction and slow-motion heroes brings in the 18-25 year olds.
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Steven
Posted: February 1st, 2017, 1:47pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Scar Tissue Films


Like all things, it's a rule of thumb, not an absolute.

Whatever works.

In the type of story you are describing, you are risking having a weak narrative drive, you'll have to find some way to compensate for that. That type of story is usually organised more around theme than plot.

One of the problem with films that I've learnt as a director, and as an audience member talking to other audience members is that a large number of people do not absorb information delivered in dialogue.

Showing someone being beaten is much more effective than having someone say "My Daddy used to beat me". Again, it;s just a general rule of thumb, there's always exceptions.

I agree with that.

Dialogue, regardless of how captivating, won't replace visuals if you have to choose between the two.

Say you have a character in a psychologist's office, and they're talking about the character's history and why they feel the way they do. Would you flashback with VO, flashback completely with dialogue or just let the character speak without cutting away?

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Female Gaze
Posted: February 1st, 2017, 1:47pm Report to Moderator
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I need a break from this site.

I wish I had never done the OWC and just kept to myself like I had been doing all year.
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Scar Tissue Films
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Quoted from Steven

I agree with that.

Dialogue, regardless of how captivating, won't replace visuals if you have to choose between the two.

Say you have a character in a psychologist's office, and they're talking about the character's history and why they feel the way they do. Would you flashback with VO, flashback completely with dialogue or just let the character speak without cutting away?



All depends on the story you're telling, doesn't it and what you're trying to tell the audience?

Flashbacks generally disrupt the narrative drive because they go back in time and deal with things that have already happened, so they tend to lack tension because whatever was at stake has already happened.

But not necessarily.

In your example perhaps the flashbacks show what actually happened, and the character is telling a completely different version of events.

Or perhaps you just show the events and cut the to the Psychiatrist's office and the patient then says: And that's about it...so you've disguised the flashback.

You just need to know enough about the different effects things have to then make the best choices for your own story.
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Steven
Posted: February 1st, 2017, 2:10pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Scar Tissue Films


All depends on the story you're telling, doesn't it and what you're trying to tell the audience?

Flashbacks generally disrupt the narrative drive because they go back in time and deal with things that have already happened, so they tend to lack tension because whatever was at stake has already happened.

But not necessarily.

In your example perhaps the flashbacks show what actually happened, and the character is telling a completely different version of events.

Or perhaps you just show the events and cut the to the Psychiatrist's office and the patient then says: And that's about it...so you've disguised the flashback.

You just need to know enough about the different effects things have to then make the best choices for your own story.


Ahh you son of a bitch, thanks for that.

But when formatting the screenplay, if you were showing one event but describing it differently, would you have to specify that? Or would the fact that the VO doesn't match the visual be explanation enough?

As for the disguised flashback, you'd still tag it as a flashback in the scene description right?

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