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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Screenwriting Discussion    Screenwriting Class  ›  Alternative Screenplay Template/Model Moderators: George Willson
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  Author    Alternative Screenplay Template/Model  (currently 7429 views)
leitskev
Posted: April 11th, 2017, 5:28pm Report to Moderator
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I have not been doing this as long as Rick, not nearly. Certainly I've not watched as many films or read as many scripts.

One thing I did do a few years back is, over a period of a couple years, make a project of picking a couple films a week and mapping out the structure, beat by beat. I'm actually good at very little in life, but I turned out to be good at that. Not because I was looking for Save the Cat beat sheet points, I didn't do it that way, though I was well aware of them. If anything I was trying to identify sequences, but I followed whatever structure the story used.

It was not my experience that 90% followed those beats exactly. Though everyone seems to say this. I fear it might be the kind of thing that just gets accepted and repeated. Yes, you can always find certain beats. Even if one never read a structure book in his life, there are certain elements in story which are natural. You want to set up a story, and then get things going. This usually means in inciting incident. Naturally there will be twists and turns, and at some point a real low point from which the hero must climb. So if one is looking for the beats, they'll find them, kind of like the bible code or constellations.

Of course, it's more than that, especially with the big studio projects, where teams of writers have to be on the same page, so it's easier to follow a well-accepted plot path.

What I did find was that the sequences usually apply, but not as neatly as one who likes symmetry would expect. Under the sequence method, you have 8 equal sequences, each with a turning point. Acts one and three are each 2 sequences, act two is 4.

But in reality, the third act has an acceleration. So the turning points come quicker and quicker. I found that the third act might technically have multiple sequences, if by sequence we mean a segment with a beginning, a turn, and an end.

I am a HUGE fan of structure. I can't imagine creating without it.

But structure varies immensely depending on he need of the story. And a story should follow it's own logic. I've pointed out many examples here in the forum in the past. Rocky is a great example.

Rick mentions weak characters and lack of conflict, for example. This is exactly what I am talking about, actually. Often writers are more focused on hitting plot points than in creating those things. The models can help you create those things...but sometimes they can harm you by denying you the space you need. For example, you might have a great scene ripe with potential conflict. Bu in trying to hit your beats, maybe you shorten that scene and it never reaches its potential. Excessively modeled scripts do this all the time.

Maybe if I have time I'll break down Rocky later.
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Gum
Posted: April 11th, 2017, 6:44pm Report to Moderator
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Very thought provoking, gentlemen. I’m super pleased with the response I’ve received on this so far, and I thank you kindly for that! As well, I’m glad I put this in the WIP section, cause now my head is a flurry of ideas swimming about; as to the pro’s and con’s of using models for scripting. I’m thinking I might add a blurb (forward) explaining the perils of relying solely on a script structure as the Alpha-Omega.

On the one hand I want to emphasize that this could surely be used as a tool by writers looking for a stepping stone or, perhaps, used as a ‘Break Glass in Emergency’ type situation when a writer is stuck in the mud and just needs a little push to help them along; God knows I’ve been there many late nights, just staring at a blank piece of paper.

On the other hand, with respect to character development, I’ll agree, this is definitely not the most intuitive tool; I even went as far as addressing one of my Psychopomps in a script as a… Psychopomp, lol. That’s a no-no, I’ll have to go back and fix that pronto, lest I be ostracized for unimaginative behavior.

As well, I noticed after a re-read, that I said the Jungian Archetype could exist as an inanimate object, but was really thinking it (sentient Psychopomp) would control those existential forces from a distance to arose suspicion, or a conscious interaction from the Protag. Great analysis of the ‘model structure’, guys, I truly appreciate the feedback!
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leitskev
Posted: April 11th, 2017, 7:28pm Report to Moderator
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It's a great, tool, Canis, I have used it twice now.
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Gum
Posted: June 24th, 2019, 2:05pm Report to Moderator
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Just a shameless bump for new writers who may (or may not) have found this document somewhat useful in the past; now updated with additional info on some basic development of character structure. The update is by no means canonized or complete, simply an entry template for creating interesting or surreal character quirks.

Thanks all…
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: June 24th, 2019, 2:39pm Report to Moderator
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The big thing in script writing these days is 'post narrativity'.
Marvel universe, Game thrones, Walking Dead, Star Wars... Basically stories designed to never end.

Noone really knew what it means, but there's been a break from the traditional idea that stories are complete and meaningful and now about moments to be enjoyed and disposed of
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Gum
Posted: June 24th, 2019, 3:51pm Report to Moderator
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While I never caught onto the whole ‘Avengers Noni-ology’ or ‘Deci-ology’, or (insert comic themed superhero franchise) I’d have to agree. For example, yesterday I finished the second season of ‘Dark’ on Netflix and was left wondering -- while thought-provoking… where the hell does this go from here?

On that note, I jumped on this bandwagon myself, and have recently devoted any and all of my writing time to develop a character (Mr. Whipple from a series I’ve titled ‘I Scream Parlor’) that has no beginning and no end; like a dream, just a snapshot ‘in the day’ of a peculiar individual that I have no idea as to where to take him/or what to have him do next. Just something I hope people would find fun and entertaining to read, but, with no real course of resolve on his true purpose in life… kind of like where I am at this exact moment in time. Where to go from here…?
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leitskev
Posted: June 24th, 2019, 5:03pm Report to Moderator
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Thank you, Gum. I had completely forgotten about this thread. Man, so much has changed in 2 years, it feels like this converation took place centuries ago.

At the moment, I only had time to read our back and forth(and of course Rick's). I'll go look again at the document itself later.

Looking at my notes in this thread, I copied these points from your theory:

- return to isolation
- hero's world destroyed
- hero's destruction
- transported to antag's realm
- to be born anew one must die
- abandoned by others

I am currently in the finishing round of a YA novel, and I wondered if any of this, a) applied, or b) might help me as I go into the final act.

Let me bore you with something I went through when I got to the midpoint and stopped to plot out the second half of the book. I decided that in creating the highs and lows of the story I needed to look for an all is lost moment. For a couple of days I was stuck. What was the worst thing I could do this character? What would really make her feel the sting of defeat? The story is middle grade/YA, so I couldn't have any death. She had a best friend in the story. So I started thinking what if he turned on her? But that felt weak and forced.

Then it dawned on me: it must be something she does to herself. Not just a mistake, but something that was just plain selfish and petty and heartless. Which would be out of character for her, but we all are capable of that when we allow our jealousies to win out over our better nature. So I decided to have her do something that would make all of her friends...not exactly turn on her, but close. Make them very disappointed in her. And she's also disappointed in herself. It's a really low moment, and the key is, she does it all to herself.

It seems to me there is no better way to create the hero's destruction then when the hero destroys herself.

Once I hit on this, the other plot points naturally fell into place, even the midpoint. So the false high of the midpoint became intricately connected to how the hero is reborn. The structure really is beautiful.

None of that would have been possible without having studied structure.

But it also would not have been possible if I had shoehorned plot points into a structure. In fact, I did not structure this story until I got the roughly middle of the book. Before that I was going on instinct, perhaps incorporating some structure that I've learned unconsciously.

Also, what I am calling the "midpoint" will probably not actually be the literal midpoint. Man, I recently read an article where the guru went back and checked the literal midpoints of major books to see if the structure is that exact. He convinced himself it is, which I think is absurd.

Rick said in his comment that no story suffers from too much structure. Of course not!

But there are different structures and a story can have a structure unique to its own story. It's PERFECTLY structured, but does not follow perfectly any model.

OK, I'll bring in Rocky.

Years ago I read an article by the Bitter Screen Reader that insisted Rocky was a "love story". When you read his article it's clear he's trying to force Rocky into the Save the Cat plot points.

Which was absurd. When does the "love story" part of Rocky end? Precisely at the end of act one!! After that there is no question that Rocky and Adrien are a couple. Had it been a love story they would not have cemented their relationship until the end of the story, or at least the end of the second act.

It's easy to spot the real structure of Rocky...but you simply won't be able to if you are trying to rely on standard structure.

Rocky is a story about an underdog getting one last chance to make something of himself. The inciting incident doesn't come until the end of act one. Go ahead, watch it. It's at the end of act one when the heavyweight champ picks Rocky out of a book of fighters because of his name. That's how Rocky gets his chance. The love story comes before that and is entirely separate.

However, the love story is essential, for a strange reason: as a destraction. As something that exists to carry the long set up.

You see, Rocky requires a long set up because it's important to establish two things: 1) Rocky is really washed up, as a fighter and in life; 2) Rocky is a character we want to root for. The set up is EVERYTHING for the story. Every little scene in that first act feeds into this. He walks the teen girl home he finds smoking on the corner with boys. He gets his locker taken away by Micky and called a bum. He's a reluctant leg breaker. He lives alone. He loves animals. A lot of little scenes needed to establish his character as down and out but big-hearted and lovable.

But...you simply can't spend 30 minutes of a movie merely establishing character. So what do you do? How do you buy that 30 minutes? The mini-story!

The love story is merely a side story to hold our attention while Stallone sets up the character. That's it. Perfectly structured, just not standard model...at least no model I've seen. I've never seen a model that called for a 30 minute side story to open things.

My guess is Stallone had been taught no theory(and I don't know what theory existed in 1976; even Syd Fields didn't publish til around 1979 I think). I suspect that Rocky would never have been written like that if Stallone had been poluted by rigid theory.

This reinforces for me:
- every story needs structure
- models can be useful
- models can also get in the way

I'm going to go over your structure tomorrow. I think return to isolation might be usefull. Or at least it fits. Maybe transporrted to the realm of the antag.
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Gum
Posted: June 24th, 2019, 8:44pm Report to Moderator
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Hey, Kevin,


Quoted from leitskev
I had completely forgotten about this thread. Man, so much has changed in 2 years, it feels like this converation took place centuries ago.


You and me both. I actually updated this document last year, but only got around to reposting today cause I completely forgot about it… aaah, time flies when your mind starts to go, lol.


Quoted from leitskev
Then it dawned on me: it must be something she does to herself. Not just a mistake, but something that was just plain selfish and petty and heartless. Which would be out of character for her, but we all are capable of that when we allow our jealousies to win out over our better nature. So I decided to have her do something that would make all of her friends...not exactly turn on her, but close. Make them very disappointed in her. And she's also disappointed in herself. It's a really low moment, and the key is, she does it all to herself.

… It seems to me there is no better way to create the hero's destruction then when the hero destroys herself.


Curious you said this. Just recently I caught a Youtube video where this dude was going on about our minds literally being programmed from birth to about seven years old; that being, this programming is the basic construct of how you will perceive reality for the rest of your life. The aspect of self-sabotage he speaks of are ingrained within our subconscious by outside influences –

Vis-à-vis: “a child being told they are worthless and will never amount to anything, over and over by a parent/guardian, etc, will actually (subconsciously) self sabotage their entire life to ensure the subconscious programming that was drilled into them plays out.”

A strange aspect of the subconscious mind is; it doesn’t know what it does, it just does what it’s programmed to do. Breaking away from previous destructive programming is another realization in itself.

Your story, the story you speak of here, by encapsulating this into your Protag (I believe) is a great way to flesh out a truly 3D character, as well, leaves room to draw out backstory when they’re in the presence of those responsible for instilling destructive values onto their (Protag’s) subconscious.

I’ve tried doing something a little similar with a previous script, kind of an experiment in ‘total loss of self-control’, by blatantly exposing a chunk of backstory into a title sequence. I did video compositing for a living back in the day and was quite enamored by the compositing/art styles of ‘Saul Bass’,‘Kyle Cooper’, etc. That is, using an entrancing, entertaining (and informative when required) title sequence to really squelch the viewer’s mind into the perfect frequency for the ride, so to speak.


Quoted from leitskev
This reinforces for me:
- every story needs structure
- models can be useful
- models can also get in the way.


Agree, agree, and agree. Initially, I wanted to go full throttle by calling this document something along the lines of ‘Hollywood’s Immutable Archetypes in the Demonic World of Stereo CinemaScope’ but thought I might scare away a lot of new writers, thus I went with something a little more generic… ‘Template’.

Anyway, great insight as always, thanks kindly for all the info; it really stoked my imagination about character flaws and how to dig deeper to really bring out the surreal. As well, think I’ll tune into 'Rocky' over the weekend and watch it again. I haven’t seen it in years, and your breakdown of the beat structure sounds interesting.

Cheers for the feedback!
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leitskev
Posted: June 24th, 2019, 9:17pm Report to Moderator
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A strange aspect of the subconscious mind is; it doesn’t know what it does, it just does what it’s programmed to do. Breaking away from previous destructive programming is another realization in itself.

What happens in story is that some outside thing forces change onto the character.

Let's say tomorrow the power grid went down forever. You would still be driven by subconscious urges that stem from childhood, as well as by biological urges, and who knows, maybe even by a mysterious collective unconscious. But your subconscious will ALSO adapt to the new surroundings and needs. It's not as though the subconscious is ignorant of the outside world...it's not. We are just ignorant of it.

Maybe a character suffers from a degree of OCD and subconsciously finds safety from anxiety within routine. But if the grid goes down, routine is no longer possible. The character may make a conscious decision to change from routine to survive. But if does not, the subconscious will seek ways to force him to change.

So things like environment and outside forces interact with our subconscious. It can drive us in positive or negative directions. But the subconscious is not locked in by its formative forces. The effects of those forces will always be there, and they will interact with the new forces of the changed environment.

And I don't think it's true that we are completely locked onto a path pre-determined by the early forces that shape the subconscious. And we can't accept that as writers, because the whole idea behind story is that people are capable of change, capable of growth, capable of exercising some influence over who they are. The subconscious is devious and persistent. But it also reacts to circumstances.

When you watch Rocky, and it's been a long time for me too, but there is a distinct end to act one. I think even the music changes. I mean it's so distinct you can imagine a curtain going up. And the love story ALL comes before that turn. By the time Rocky gets called with the fight opportunity they are a couple, and no further obstacles develop in their relationship, even when the brother gets jealous and goes crazy on Thanksgiving.

But without the love story in act one, we're looking at 30 minutes of set up! Well, take out the love seens and maybe it's 20 minutes of set up with 10 missing from the movie. But the set up Rock's character is included in those romance scenes, so it's critical. He's sweet, lonely, awkward, courageous-, desperate.

I look at it this way: in any moment of story there needs to be some of the essential structure elements of story in order to keep us watching(or turning the page). For example, there is usually a character goal, or a compelling mystery. The goal could be something thrust on him, such as the need to survive. Any moment in story where you don't have one of those elements is very risky. You might get away with a little at the very beginning, but even that is risky. So as Rocky is being slowly set up for us, we get the love story. His goal is to get shy Adrien to go out with him. Then the goal is to get her to accept him as a boyfriend. Because we are intrigued and we start to care about him, we want him to succeed. Meanwhile, Rocky's down and out character can be fully set up.

Act two is really just about him gaining the confidence he needs, establishing his father relationship with Micky, further bonding with Adrien. By the end of the movie, it doesn't matter anymore if he wins the fight. He's no longer alone, he has her, and he's no longer a bum because he went the distance. By today's standards the movie is slow, but it's one of the most endearing and powerful movies of all time.
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Gum
Posted: June 24th, 2019, 10:33pm Report to Moderator
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I think we may have opened up a can of worms, lol, re: the subconscious. None the less, I always respect others’ opinion on this topic, because we all come from different walks of life… makes one think outside of the box.

I believe, at this point in time, I have a tendency to migrate my views on subconscious behavior based on ‘white papers, articles, etc’ written about MKULTRA…  and, of course, a strange sycophantic romance I have with Cold War espionage; tomes could be written about that stuff in itself.

Thanks again for the informative synopsis, I’ll be sure to consider some of your points next time I sit down and write for compelling character structure. Cheers!
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leitskev
Posted: June 24th, 2019, 10:55pm Report to Moderator
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What we should do is this: next time you or I am stuck on a structural problem, we pose it here and see if some of the models might help us out. I'm going to read your model again tomorrow and see if I can apply any to my novel.
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Gum
Posted: June 25th, 2019, 10:46pm Report to Moderator
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Kevin

Sorry, man. I meant to get to this earlier, my daughter had her Grad today, was a whole day thing… all good.


Quoted from leitskev
What we should do is this: next time you or I am stuck on a structural problem, we pose it here and see if some of the models might help us out. I'm going to read your model again tomorrow and see if I can apply any to my novel.


Deal, but you do realize if we can’t resolve any issues with this script model… I’ll have to commit ‘Seppuku’ with a rusty lawnmower blade; if that doesn’t kill me, surely the ‘Tetanus’ will cause (deserved) discomfort.

Thanks again for all the positive feedback!
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DustinBowcot
Posted: June 26th, 2019, 1:44am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from leitskev
Breaking away from previous destructive programming is another realization in itself.


Isn't it just. I work very hard to be a 'free thinker'. It's not just old programming, but the new stuff too that we need to watch out for.


Nice to see there are others out there trying too. Too many mindless people... even the ones that believe they are free thinkers, often they have merely chosen an alternative side to the main... or, worse, are New Atheists.
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leitskev
Posted: June 26th, 2019, 10:10am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from DustinBowcot


Isn't it just. I work very hard to be a 'free thinker'. It's not just old programming, but the new stuff too that we need to watch out for.


Nice to see there are others out there trying too. Too many mindless people... even the ones that believe they are free thinkers, often they have merely chosen an alternative side to the main... or, worse, are New Atheists.


I should have had that in quotes because I think it was from Gum's story model. As for myself, I'm not very good at much in life, but one thing I think I do well is to always, always challenge my assumptions or conclusions about anything. Even if I'm arguing with someone, part of my mind is going, well, maybe the bastard has a point. I think it's the Celtic blood in me. Those contrarian voices are hard to shut up.
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Gum
Posted: June 27th, 2019, 12:03am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from DustinBowcot

… It's not just old programming, but the new stuff too that we need to watch out for.


Unfortunately, yes, and not that I haven’t already milked the shit out of this thread, here’s some credibility to that claim re: New World addictive programming: It has literally become weaponized and will eventually have devastating results on society.

Could make for a creative screenplay with ‘richly layered characters’, if done well... like Tiramisu.

https://www.henrymakow.com/2019/06/insider-rips-the-mask-off-face.html
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