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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Screenwriting Discussion    Screenwriting Class  ›  Not-quite-tertiary characters Moderators: George Willson
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  Author    Not-quite-tertiary characters  (currently 2011 views)
FrankM
Posted: February 19th, 2018, 10:42am Report to Moderator
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Is there any accepted way to signal to a reader the relative importance of a character to your story?

As far as I know, there are basically three levels:

Main characters who have five-line introductions or other obvious hallmarks of being indispensable to the story like being in the title. The reader knows these need to be remembered.

Secondary characters with maybe a line or two of introduction. The reader should try to keep these straight because they'll be mentioned again, but not lose sleep over having to look one up.

Throwaway characters (e.g., BANK TELLER) who only appear once or twice, and may or may not have any dialogue. Generally referred to by position/trait rather than name. The reader knows not to spend a lot of time remembering these,

My question is whether there is a way to signal to the reader something I'd informally call a tertiary character? Someone who has a name and a bit of personality and shows up a few times, but may be one of a couple dozen such characters that I don't expect the reader to keep in their head.

To make this concrete, the story involves the protagonist and antagonist entering a contest alongside hundreds of others. Only three other contestants are really consequential, but another twenty have names and lines. I don't want to make it obvious ahead of time precisely which contestants are consequential, but also don't want the reader taking notes to keep track of everyone.

Am I just overthinking this? Or is it something that would make a reader reject a script?


Feature-length scripts:
Who Wants to Be a Princess? (Family)
Glass House (Horror anthology)

TV pilots:
"Kord" (Fantasy)
"Mal Suerte" (Superhero)

Additional scripts are listed here.

Revision History (1 edits)
FrankM  -  August 6th, 2018, 8:33pm
Made thread title more technically correct
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Patrick
Posted: February 19th, 2018, 11:09am Report to Moderator
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Some characters enter a script for a specific purpose, once they have served that purpose, I like to get rid of them. Never to be seen again. Interesting part is how do you do that? After all you can only kill off a charater so many times. I like to be inventive on how I get rid of them.


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Steven
Posted: February 20th, 2018, 11:20am Report to Moderator
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Typically, the main character's intro has more detail than just some random person. So, if you devote time to give a detailed introduction, that SHOULD signal the reader enough to realize "maybe this dude is important."
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Colkurtz8
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You could include what are called "asides" or "unfilmmables" in the character introductions which is extraneous information that can't be conveyed on screen but tells the reader about the character. Such as their backstory, likes, dislikes or, in this case, their importance to the story.

Alternatively, you could just allow the reader as they go along to naturally surmise what characters are more important than others based on screen time, dialogue and influence on the story. Like what you do if you're watching a film you know nothing about without any recognizable stars.

I would suggest going with the latter approach. Have faith in your own writing to get this across organically and in the reader's ability to tell the difference (sounding like the Serenity Prayer here)


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FrankM
Posted: February 20th, 2018, 1:57pm Report to Moderator
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I think that's the direction I'm heading, though on closer inspection there are a few characters that can be "demoted" without losing any story. It'll still be a lot, but at least it will be no more than necessary.

Which basically amounts to a slight apology to anyone looking at the first draft


Feature-length scripts:
Who Wants to Be a Princess? (Family)
Glass House (Horror anthology)

TV pilots:
"Kord" (Fantasy)
"Mal Suerte" (Superhero)

Additional scripts are listed here.
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eldave1
Posted: February 20th, 2018, 9:07pm Report to Moderator
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The challenge it the remembering. Can't tell you how many scripts I read and I get to page 60 and someone does something or have a line of dialogue and I don't recall them ever being in the script in the first place.

I think things you can do in this regard:

- Include, where possible, other identifiers. e.g., Joe Thomas is someone's Uncle and is going to appear a few time. I would be attempted to label him as UNCLE JOE.

- Or, give them a memorable name. e.g., if a minor character has the name Astoria - I'm going to remember that.

- Or, as someone else said - a little more when they're intro'd - e,g, JOE THOMAS (45) the quintessential drunk uncle.  


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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FrankM
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Quoted from eldave1
The challenge it the remembering. Can't tell you how many scripts I read and I get to page 60 and someone does something or have a line of dialogue and I don't recall them ever being in the script in the first place.

I think things you can do in this regard:

- Include, where possible, other identifiers. e.g., Joe Thomas is someone's Uncle and is going to appear a few time. I would be attempted to label him as UNCLE JOE.

- Or, give them a memorable name. e.g., if a minor character has the name Astoria - I'm going to remember that.

- Or, as someone else said - a little more when they're intro'd - e,g, JOE THOMAS (45) the quintessential drunk uncle.  


Well, for this specific family script I have a gimmick where each country has a trademark color, so almost every character has at least a little description mentioning their clothes (and the samples that follow tend to be green). This is the same setting discussed in the Fictional Ethnic Groups thread.

Biggest characters other than protagonist/villain:
PRINCE ROLAND CELADON (25) stands behind {protagonist's little brother} but playfully motions {protagonist} to remain still. He is fit, tanned to a perfect shade of ruggedly handsome, and instantly recognizable anywhere in Glenwood. The prince has a bear slung over his horse, wears expensive-but-dented armor, and holds a badly bent shield.

DORINDA (21), a confident young woman of slender build who spent her entire childhood on a stage. She is an olive-skinned Aurentian by blood but wears the green of someone born in Glenwood. Her dress is rough-cloth like {protagonist's}, but dyed fully green and accented with sequins.

(The protagonist and villain are each introduced piecemeal over the course of a couple pages)

Secondary:
EDITH (18) raises her bespectacled face from deep within a book. This Glennish teen is no peasant: her long green dress with matching earrings and satchel betray an urban lifestyle.

GWYNETH (22), a self-centered woman in a green courtesan dress who imagines that everyone is interested in everything she says

Tertiary:
CYBIL (22) has a calming effect wherever she goes. KAITLIN (20) is perpetually tense and seems to have a rule of etiquette ready for any situation. Each wears a very well-maintained green-trimmed peasant dress.

Throwaway:
Three SAFIRI GUARDS sit around a campfire outside the fort, using a large bush as shelter from the wind.

(Not mentioned in that line, but by that point in the story it's established that everything Safir tends to be blue. The guards then have lines as THIN SAFIRI GUARD, CHUBBY SAFIRI GUARD and TALL SAFIRI GUARD but never appear again.)

Keeping throwaway characters obvious is easy; what I'm hoping to do is differentiate between secondary and "tertiary" characters.


Feature-length scripts:
Who Wants to Be a Princess? (Family)
Glass House (Horror anthology)

TV pilots:
"Kord" (Fantasy)
"Mal Suerte" (Superhero)

Additional scripts are listed here.

Revision History (1 edits)
FrankM  -  March 3rd, 2018, 10:33pm
Fixed formatting, some words were invisible.
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ReaperCreeper
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I think you're overthinking it a little too much. I've read screenplays that have long intros for characters and screenplays that literally do nothing but tell you their name and age. Both methods have been used to great or terrible effect, depending on the writer. There is NO wrong or right way to do it, nor is there even a concrete division between primary, secondary, and tertiary characters (moguls and writers of How To books swear by some variation of that structure or another whilst almost never agreeing with each other, but those writers are mostly concerned with making money and their opinions, in the end, are just that).

Personally, 5 lines of description for a character seems like overkill, regardless of their role in the story. Generally, paragraphs shouldn't exceed 4 lines in scripts, or you would mess up the 1 page=1 minute ratio, which is a pretty good marker to determine the length of a script compared to the finished film (a weighty script that's 10-15 pages longer than it should be due to dense prose WILL get rejected; the first thing they do is feel the weight of it in their hands). That said, I've seen lengthier character intros done in professional screenplays as well, often by longtime pros.

I would not recommend relying on asides or unfilmables if they are superfluous or otherwise unable to be communicated by simply looking at said character or by revealing them gradually throughout the story. It's just too easy to fall into that trap. I only use unfilmables when they're obvious, and even then I can count the times I've knowingly used them on one hand.

Of course, this whole post is only my opinion and by no means the end all be all of anything, but there are my two cents. Bottom line: do what's best for YOUR script and the way YOU feel is the clearest/most readable.
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FrankM
Posted: March 3rd, 2018, 10:37pm Report to Moderator
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Thanks RC! I was exaggerating a bit with five lines of intro, but I was seriously worried if a relatively large number of non-throwaway characters would by itself cause a reader to pass on the script. That's good advice on unfilmables, for now I tend to keep them if I think they help the actor "get" the character.

I also just noticed that the formatting in the previous post was broken. It should be readable now.


Feature-length scripts:
Who Wants to Be a Princess? (Family)
Glass House (Horror anthology)

TV pilots:
"Kord" (Fantasy)
"Mal Suerte" (Superhero)

Additional scripts are listed here.
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DustinBowcot
Posted: March 4th, 2018, 4:03am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from FrankM
Thanks RC! I was exaggerating a bit with five lines of intro, but I was seriously worried if a relatively large number of non-throwaway characters would by itself cause a reader to pass on the script.


No, it may make a screenplay writer pass on your script, citing confusion... but a producer or paid reader shouldn't pass so long as the story is good.

What you don't really want though are lots of throwaway characters that have lines. That's expensive and does bother producers. If lines have to be spoken, try to figure out a way for it to be one of the main characters that say them.
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DustinBowcot
Posted: March 4th, 2018, 4:15am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from ReaperCreeper

Personally, 5 lines of description for a character seems like overkill, regardless of their role in the story.


Why?



Quoted Text
Generally, paragraphs shouldn't exceed 4 lines in scripts, or you would mess up the 1 page=1 minute ratio...


I wrote a 17-page script recently. The eventual film was 50 minutes. The better we become the more we can fit on the page. The more we fit on the page, the longer that page takes to film.


Quoted Text

...a weighty script that's 10-15 pages longer than it should be due to dense prose WILL get rejected; the first thing they do is feel the weight of it in their hands...


This is the 21st Century, even publishers expect electronic manuscripts these days. How do they feel the weight? It won't get rejected so long as the story is good and it's something they're interested in making.

When giving advice it's better to do so from a position of experience and not regurgitate what we've read on the web.
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FrankM
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Quoted from DustinBowcot

What you don't really want though are lots of throwaway characters that have lines. That's expensive and does bother producers. If lines have to be spoken, try to figure out a way for it to be one of the main characters that say them.


This particular story is best suited for animation, which lends itself to having two or three people take on multiple minor roles. Or has the Actor's Guild somehow managed to put an end to that practice?


Feature-length scripts:
Who Wants to Be a Princess? (Family)
Glass House (Horror anthology)

TV pilots:
"Kord" (Fantasy)
"Mal Suerte" (Superhero)

Additional scripts are listed here.
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DustinBowcot
Posted: March 4th, 2018, 1:59pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from FrankM


This particular story is best suited for animation, which lends itself to having two or three people take on multiple minor roles. Or has the Actor's Guild somehow managed to put an end to that practice?


No idea, to be honest. I have a few animation projects in the works but no real experience to speak from. I know this to be true only in film. Perhaps Hollywood budgets are better, but even then, it isn't wise to give too many lines to inexperienced actors, just because they'll likely eff them up.
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ReaperCreeper
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Quoted from DustinBowcot


Why?


Because I would much rather use a page to write a real scene for the film's eventual audience instead of driving unfilmable exposition into the skulls of readers, unless of course said character description extends to demeanor and physical traits only.

This isn't to say that a writer can't or shouldn't go beyond that (I've seen it done, and done well), just that it's not how I or many others do it.


Quoted from DustinBowcot

I wrote a 17-page script recently. The eventual film was 50 minutes.


And I rest my case. You're talking about turning a short screenplay into something with an hour-long run-time due to inadequate writing. In a larger production (particularly one where your involvement only extends to being the writer, as opposed to also producer/director/whatever) that'd be disastrous.

A production company once turned a 12-page script of mine into an 18-minute film. It was an issue for them, albeit not a huge one. But I, personally, thought that even those 6 minutes of extra content was too much, as the short was disqualified from several contests because of it.


Quoted Text
The better we become the more we can fit on the page. The more we fit on the page, the longer that page takes to film.


Not to the point of  turning a 17-page script into a 50-minute film. In most cases, that's not in any way a good thing and I find your advice to be grossly incorrect.


Quoted Text
When giving advice it's better to do so from a position of experience and not regurgitate what we've read on the web.


Sure, except... I do have experience. Perhaps not as much as yourself (haven't looked you up yet) but I do have experience. Thanks for the assumption, though.


Quoted Text
This is the 21st Century, even publishers expect electronic manuscripts these days. How do they feel the weight? It won't get rejected so long as the story is good and it's something they're interested in making.


The publishing industry is not the film-making industry.

Yes, some indie filmmakers keep the script on their phones and tablets while they shoot. That's by no means the industry standard, even if we don't get too hung up on what the "standard" is. The weight issue is entirely peripheral to the points I raised concerning length. Point is, 1 page=1 minute is still the preconceived notion for length. You can argue about how unfair that is, and how not every producer follows that, and how a bunch of avant-garde indie shorts spit in the face of it, but it's better to try and follow that guideline than not if you're serious about shopping your work around, would you not agree? Is it a kiss of death? No, not necessarily, but it's better to consider that.

And yes, in theory, a script won't be rejected if the story's good and they're interested in it. In practice, they'll see an overwritten, underwritten, or poorly-written script and bail on it more often than not.

Yes, it's true that there's no hard-and-fast rule, but the industry's brutal enough as it is. If there's a general "guideline" you can follow without stifling your creative process, it's probably better to just do it.  

Revision History (10 edits; 1 reasons shown)
ReaperCreeper  -  March 6th, 2018, 2:32pm
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DustinBowcot
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The 50-minute film was actually cut down to 15. My point on that was that a page per minute is complete bullshit. All films are edited to suit. If the script was filmed as is they generally run way longer. I've never had something filmed that ended up shorter or even on the nose... have you? If you think about it, they are always edited down. Your 12-page script that ended up an 18-minute film, why didn't they edit it down to get in the festivals?

It's always a good thing to have more than you need. Always. I've worked with one producer that was concerned about page count and they were a first timer that had read the importance of page count on the web. They also felt they knew what made for a better story... the script never made it out of dev.


Quoted Text
In practice, they'll see an overwritten, underwritten, or poorly-written script and bail on it more often than not.


This doesn't have anything to do with what I said. Bad writing is bad writing no matter how many lines there are. 5 lines of great writing trumps 2 lines of shit every time.
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CameronD
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It's very noticeable to me, but a lot of movies will end a scene jarringly with a secondary character asking a question, doing something of notice, or even being introduced then cutting away fast before they can ever really do anything. It's that awkwardness that sticks with the audience that helps them to remember.  


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FrankM
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Quoted from CameronD
It's very noticeable to me, but a lot of movies will end a scene jarringly with a secondary character asking a question, doing something of notice, or even being introduced then cutting away fast before they can ever really do anything. It's that awkwardness that sticks with the audience that helps them to remember.  


Thanks. that gave me an idea how to make a secondary character stand out a bit from the tertiary characters, while also shortening her intro scene by a couple lines of dialogue (she asked the protagonist a question, but now that I look at it the answer doesn't really move the story forward).


Feature-length scripts:
Who Wants to Be a Princess? (Family)
Glass House (Horror anthology)

TV pilots:
"Kord" (Fantasy)
"Mal Suerte" (Superhero)

Additional scripts are listed here.
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FrankM
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I entered this script into a couple contests with coverage service, mostly to gauge if the coverage is worth the money, and I do agree that areas of overlap in their critiques need to be addressed.

One of those overlaps was having too many named characters, which goes right back to my concern about readers overweighting their importance.


Quoted Text

One of the biggest areas to work on in the script comes with character. As is the case with the narrative, the script introduces so many different contestants into the pages that they essentially blend together and become difficult to differentiate. It may be smarter to just focus on fewer characters here, but if the script wishes to mention this many characters than the pages need to find a way to imbue them with some distinct personalities. A good example of this comes with the bandits Zurina and Itzel, and their penchant for stealing adds some fun personality to the pages. However, this comes too infrequently to really make an impact, and it ultimately prevents the script from having an opportunity to develop its more important characters.



Quoted Text

I think my biggest concern for you here is that there are way too many characters in this script. The ensemble cast, speaking only about named characters (meaning proper names vs. functional names like “Guard #1”) easily eclipses 30 named characters.

...

Also, once Holly enters the contest, the script rapid-fire introduces a ton of contestants, who are all named. There’s the previously introduced Aimee, and then new characters Sandra (p27), Yvonne Shola (p28), Jade (p29), Gwyneth and Ursa (p29), Rhonda (p30), Edith and Dorinda (p30), Becky and Lavender (p32), Olivia, Cybil, and Kaitlin (p34), Itzel and Zurina (p36), Tara (p38), Qiana and Nichole (p39), AND Valerie and Whitley (p40).
That’s 20 new characters introduced in 12 pages. It’s asking a lot of the reading audience to keep straight all these new players, who are quickly introduced and then thrown into the mix. It becomes a bit of a “traffic jam” of characters.


The problems is that referring to characters by first name seems to flag them as important, they don't even have last names because they're peasants, and very brief descriptions were not enough to clarify their minor roles for either reader. This annoys me a bit since military dramas seem to get away with giving names to a zillion characters, many of whom don't even survive their intro scenes.

I'd been using a heuristic that if someone had lines in two or more scenes, that person should have a name, and that name should be mentioned (which often meant putting them in the "traffic jam" of contestant intros). For anyone who kept notes while reading the full script, there are 23 named contestants and each one starts with a different letter of the alphabet (Aimee, Becky, Cybil, Dorinda, Edith, Flora, Gwyneth, Holly, Itzel, Jade, Kaitlin, Lavender, Nichole, Olivia, Qiana, Rhonda, Sandra, Tara, Ursa, Valerie, Whitley, Yvonne, Zurina). There never was an "X;" I'd demoted the "I," "M," "P" and "Z" in a previous round of editing; and introduced new characters into the "I" and "Z" slots.

I suppose I need to demote the tertiary characters to non-name labels, remove their name mentions, and see if I can move some of their lines to others. This will free up at least a couple pages that can be spent on developing the secondary characters.

(Edit: The not-yet-posted draft now has only 12 contestants with names.)


Feature-length scripts:
Who Wants to Be a Princess? (Family)
Glass House (Horror anthology)

TV pilots:
"Kord" (Fantasy)
"Mal Suerte" (Superhero)

Additional scripts are listed here.

Revision History (1 edits)
FrankM  -  July 24th, 2018, 3:20pm
Update contestant count
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tjalex
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FrankM
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Quoted from tjalex


Thanks. That looks like sound advice (though I've heard contradictory advice on capping groups upon introduction), though my problem is a little different.

Since starting this thread I found out that the term "tertiary character" has an actual technical meaning... something like BANK TELLER or IRATE DRIVER where the writer basically leaves characterization up to the director and casting team. On the other hand, the writer has some distinct ideas on how a secondary character's part should be acted and spoken.

What I wanted was something between a secondary character and a tertiary character. One of them has a tertiary-sounding name (HERALD) and the remainder had first names (KAITLIN, SANDRA, ZURINA, etc.). These "2.5-ary" characters had tidbits of characterization (the Herald is a pompous ass, Kaitlin is a stickler for rules of etiquette, Sandra limps due to a work-related injury, Zurina has been raised a thief) but anything beyond that scope was more or less up for grabs.

In particular, I wanted each fictional country to have about 20% minorities without specifying every last character's ethnicity. That can come later when and if it ever gets to the point of casting, and these "2.5-ary" characters would be a nice place to handle that. Maybe I'm overthinking this, but I thought that "KAITLIN" would look better on an actor's CV than "TENSE YOUNG WOMAN". There's also the fact that this film would work well as animation, which allows quite a bit of flexibility in casting (some can play several minor roles).

Unfortunately, without some sure-fire way to telegraph a named character's minor importance, I'm forced to demote a lot of these characters for the sake of not making readers' heads explode.

Don't worry, I kept a copy of the script with everyone's name, and I could put them back if this ever progressed to a shooting script


Feature-length scripts:
Who Wants to Be a Princess? (Family)
Glass House (Horror anthology)

TV pilots:
"Kord" (Fantasy)
"Mal Suerte" (Superhero)

Additional scripts are listed here.
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