SimplyScripts Discussion Board
Blog Home - Produced Movie Script Library - TV Scripts - Unproduced Scripts - Contact - Site Map
ScriptSearch
Welcome, Guest.
It is March 29th, 2024, 2:39am
Please login or register.
Was Portal Recent Posts Home Help Calendar Search Register Login
Please do read the guidelines that govern behavior on the discussion board. It will make for a much more pleasant experience for everyone. A word about SimplyScripts and Censorship


Produced Script Database (Updated!)
One Week Challenge - Who Wrote What and Writers' Choice.


Scripts studios are posting for award consideration

Short Script of the Day | Featured Script of the Month | Featured Short Scripts Available for Production
Submit Your Script

How do I get my film's link and banner here?
All screenplays on the simplyscripts.com and simplyscripts.net domain are copyrighted to their respective authors. All rights reserved. This screenplaymay not be used or reproduced for any purpose including educational purposes without the expressed written permission of the author.
Forum Login
Username: Create a new Account
Password:     Forgot Password

SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Screenwriting Discussion    Screenwriting Class  ›  Orphans. Who gives a shit? Moderators: George Willson
Users Browsing Forum
No Members and 3 Guests

 Pages: 1, 2, 3 » : All
Recommend Print
  Author    Orphans. Who gives a shit?  (currently 2012 views)
Anon
Posted: December 29th, 2018, 2:48pm Report to Moderator
New


Posts
203
Posts Per Day
0.07
I see a lot of people saying ‘oh orphan on the front page rookie error’. Am I alone in not giving a shit about this? I write it as tight or good as I can get it. If that means the occasional word hanging out on its own - so what? Doesn’t mess up my read when I have to spend a millisecond dragging my eye all the way over to read it.

I understand the need for decent formatting. To make things clear and understandable. Orphans have no effect on that. So perhaps I missed this screenwriting lesson but I am genuinely interested in why they bother people. Or why they’re wrong.

Please discuss. If you give shit ...
Logged Offline
Private Message
eldave1
Posted: December 29th, 2018, 2:55pm Report to Moderator
January Project Group



Location
Southern California
Posts
6874
Posts Per Day
1.95

Quoted from Anon
I see a lot of people saying ‘oh orphan on the front page rookie error’. Am I alone in not giving a shit about this? I write it as tight or good as I can get it. If that means the occasional word hanging out on its own - so what? Doesn’t mess up my read when I have to spend a millisecond dragging my eye all the way over to read it.

I understand the need for decent formatting. To make things clear and understandable. Orphans have no effect on that. So perhaps I missed this screenwriting lesson but I am genuinely interested in why they bother people. Or why they’re wrong.

Please discuss. If you give shit ...


Must people don't give a
shit.

They serve one purpose, IMO. Just a reminder to see if you are writing efficiently. Half the time when I look at them I find a better way to say something. Half the time I don't.

In no case do they bother me when I read other peeps stuff.  


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 1 - 42
Anon
Posted: December 29th, 2018, 3:24pm Report to Moderator
New


Posts
203
Posts Per Day
0.07

Quoted Text

They serve one purpose, IMO. Just a reminder to see if you are writing efficiently. Half the time when I look at them I find a better way to say something. Half the time I don't.


Indeed they are useful as check tool. If only people spotted them and suggested a better way to write the sentence. That would be useful. It just the mindless ‘orphan’ calls that give me the shits.
Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 2 - 42
AnthonyCawood
Posted: December 29th, 2018, 3:27pm Report to Moderator
January Project Group



Location
UK
Posts
4319
Posts Per Day
1.14
I don't give a shit... and to me, much more importantly, no producer has ever mentioned them to me - I doubt they know what they are


Anthony Cawood - Award winning screenwriter
Available Short screenplays - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/short-scripts
Available Feature screenplays - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/feature-film-scripts/
Screenwriting articles - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/articles
IMDB Link - http://www.imdb.com/name/nm6495672/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1
Logged Offline
Site Private Message Reply: 3 - 42
DustinBowcot
Posted: December 29th, 2018, 3:36pm Report to Moderator
Guest User



It's aesthetics and is in all writing not just screenplays. An orphan doesn't look good on the page. Most of the time there is a better way to structure the sentence... but if there really isn't, nobody is going to care or perhaps even notice aside from other writers.
Logged
e-mail Reply: 4 - 42
Mr. Blonde
Posted: December 29th, 2018, 11:15pm Report to Moderator
Administrator


What good are choices if they're all bad?

Location
Nowhere special.
Posts
3064
Posts Per Day
0.57
It's mostly about math, as far as I can tell. Do it once, no big deal. Do it fifty times and you're likely to find your script length inflated by a couple extra pages.


Logged
Private Message Reply: 5 - 42
DustinBowcot
Posted: December 30th, 2018, 4:40am Report to Moderator
Guest User



Fifty words equals two pages? Who cares about an extra two pages anyway?

It's aesthetics. There is no other reason. Even as a reader of novels, it annoys me seeing an orphan on the page. They look messy. It's like ending a script with one word on the final page. No matter what, we must find a way to stop that happening. Why? Aesthetics. That is all.
Logged
e-mail Reply: 6 - 42
MarkRenshaw
Posted: December 30th, 2018, 5:19am Report to Moderator
January Project Group



Location
UK
Posts
2335
Posts Per Day
0.59
Look at the pro scripts, the ones that get produced that you've heard of and admire. They have a few, everyone does it. No-one but format OCD'ers care about a few here and there.  What they don't have is a lot of them though because they write lean and take care to utilize every piece of white space as efficiently as possible.

Why? Because time is money. Reading the script, then producing it should be as effortless as possible to save time and therefore money. Anything the writer can do to help with this, only makes their script easier to sell. An orphan usually screams out that the action or dialogue needs a trim, that there's a better way to get the message across.

It's when there are loads that there's a problem, as that suggests that the writer is just starting out or doesn't give a shit.


For more of my scripts, stories, produced movies and the ocassional blog, check out my new website. CLICK
Logged Offline
Site Private Message Reply: 7 - 42
Mr. Blonde
Posted: December 30th, 2018, 11:37am Report to Moderator
Administrator


What good are choices if they're all bad?

Location
Nowhere special.
Posts
3064
Posts Per Day
0.57

Quoted from DustinBowcot
Fifty words equals two pages? Who cares about an extra two pages anyway?


If an orphan moves a line of prose onto another line by one word, yeah, fifty words equals two pages. And, I care about two extra pages. If you don't, awesome. Makes no bit of difference to me.


Logged
Private Message Reply: 8 - 42
Dreamscale
Posted: December 30th, 2018, 12:37pm Report to Moderator
Guest User



Oh boy...like a late Christmas present for me.  I'll take this one on...

There are several things to consider when thinking about orphans, and it's really quite simple...if you give a shit.

I haven't counted recently, but I recall that most script writing software throws out between 48 and 52 lines per page.  An orphan "wastes" an entire line, so, by my math, every 50 orphans equals an extra page.  Or, let's really look at what we're saying here.  5 orphans per page, on average, over a 100 page feature, equals a whopping extra 10 pages!  Or, an extra 10%!

Now, let's also understand that you don't really have 50 lines of prose per page, as many of the lines will be blank, some will be Slugs, and some may be character headers.  The lines you have available to you for action/description prose are both limited and important, so don't waste them.

In a short, like an OWC, where page count definitely comes into play, getting rid of a few orphans can literally make or brake your script, in terms of either just fitting into the max page count, or going over, having to omit FADE OUT, or just having to pull out whole lines.

Probably more importantly, though, is the pure fact that the VAST MAJORITY of orphans are caused by either poor writing or "over writing".  Seeing an orphan is like getting a clue in editing that something can be written more effectively, and this is really the reason that orphans are not good in a script.

For instance, consider a passive line, like, "...is running", compared to the "correct" tense of "...runs".  Something so simple can be the cause of either an orphan, or 2 words that spill over onto the next line, and in effect, serve the same issue as an actual orphan does - a wasted line.

How many times do we see passages that spill onto the next line by 2 or 3 words?  I'll answer that for you - A FUCKING LOT!!!  Very often, it's the choice of words and tense that causes this to happen.  Over writing and over describing are big issues in script writing.  They bloat the script, prolong the read, and show that the writer either isn't very good, or just doesn't get it or give a shit.

Are orphans "bad"?  No, not really, but what causes them usually is bad, and that's why orphans are singled out as being "bad".  There's absolutely nothing wrong with an orphan here and an orphan there, but starting out a script with an orphan in the very first passage?  Really?  Or 3 or 4 in the first half page?  C'mon, man...read what you've written and get it into the kind of shape that will impress, not push away.

Word...

Logged
e-mail Reply: 9 - 42
Pale Yellow
Posted: December 30th, 2018, 1:20pm Report to Moderator
January Project Group



Posts
2083
Posts Per Day
1.40

Quoted from Anon
I see a lot of people saying ‘oh orphan on the front page rookie error’. Am I alone in not giving a shit about this?

Please discuss. If you give shit ...


I do not worry about orphans... so guess I fall in the don't give a shit category on this. It looks neater without them but one here or one there .. if the script is good ... who cares.
Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 10 - 42
leitskev
Posted: December 30th, 2018, 1:59pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


Posts
3113
Posts Per Day
0.64
No one that will consider your script for production will care about orphans.

Is it worthwhile for a new writer to learn how to write without them? Yes, and I agree with Jeff that often when you spot the orphan and then look at the sentence you will find there is better and more efficient way to word it.

I do some flash fiction now, either for contests or aimed at publishers that are looking for that. Usually there is a word limit of something like 1000. I find that number limiting, and often I am forced to go back to cut. But when I do I also discover that there is a lot of crap that is worth cutting. Only the word limit forces me into that discovery.

Orphans can be like that, they force you to take a closer look.

Also, if you're worried about the page count running too long, it's worth trying to be efficient in order to conserve space.

As far as it being an aesthetic thing, again, I doubt that any reader would even notice unless he was also a screenwriter and has been taught over a period of years to spot those things as a kind of rule violation. As for orphans in prose, is that even a thing? I've never even heard it mentioned anywhere, and I've read dozens of books on writing, followed writing blogs, etc. I think the whole thing only exists in the screenwriting world(I could be wrong).

Update: I searched for orphans in prose. Found this: https://www.writersdigest.com/online-editor/how-to-edit-and-polish-your-writing

However, it turns out the article was addressing orphans in scripts and how it might be useful in prose. So again, this is a screenwriter thing. I use Scrivener to write prose, the top writing software. And there is no way to even spot an orphan. When the manuscript is compiled into a document it will be different than what you see in the writing window, and it will vary based on what format you compile, such as e-book, doc, or PDF. It's just not a thing in prose.

Revision History (1 edits)
leitskev  -  December 30th, 2018, 2:10pm
Logged
Private Message Reply: 11 - 42
AnthonyCawood
Posted: December 30th, 2018, 3:46pm Report to Moderator
January Project Group



Location
UK
Posts
4319
Posts Per Day
1.14
I can write a great sentence (honest, I can!)... and if I'm typing away I won't notice if I've created an orphan or not...

Then I look down and see it, an orphan!

But if the sentence is good, not passive etc, should I re-write a perfectly good sentence to remove the orphan?

Well, I don't...

Sure I will re-write as part of my normal process, and this may remove the orphan... could also introduce some new ones as I improve my script with each pass (hopefully)!

So, if you re-write specifically to remove orphans you run the risk of sacrificing decent writing for the sake of a 'rule' no one cares about.

IMHO of course.


Anthony Cawood - Award winning screenwriter
Available Short screenplays - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/short-scripts
Available Feature screenplays - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/feature-film-scripts/
Screenwriting articles - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/articles
IMDB Link - http://www.imdb.com/name/nm6495672/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1
Logged Offline
Site Private Message Reply: 12 - 42
FrankM
Posted: December 30th, 2018, 4:13pm Report to Moderator
January Project Group



Location
Between Chair and Keyboard
Posts
1447
Posts Per Day
0.63
The notion of orphans being a problem comes from old-fashioned typesetting, first for books then later for magazines and newspapers.

Typesetters - who generally were not authorized to modify the text - kept on the lookout for several aesthetic problems that could be fixed with spacing or hyphenation:

* Orphan: the last word of a paragraph, on a line by itself
* Widow: the last line of a paragraph, wrapped by itself to the top of the next column or page
* River: alignment of spaces that appear as white "rivers" through a block of text
* Having the same word start three consecutive lines

A particularly bad paragraph could exhibit all of these problems simultaneously.

People don't really notice rivers in fixed-width fonts (as used in scripts), but they can be distracting in proportional-width fonts.

Modern word processors will handle widows automatically. It will wrap two lines instead of one, except in the case of a three-line paragraph when it wraps the whole thing. (Edit: word processors interpret "widow control" as also avoiding having only the first line of a two-line-plus paragraph at the bottom of a page. The typical fix is to wrap the first line onto the next page.)

Modern word processors built for proportional fonts will make some attempts at automatically controlling orphans. In a fixed-width world, the only adjustments would be to add whole spaces, which tends to look bad so programs aren't set up to attempt it.

You're completely on your own avoiding repetition, but since few people will notice it's also a fairly low priority.

Note that fixing an orphan will save you a line, but fixing a widow costs you one or two lines. When I notice a widow, I try to take advantage of the "free" line at the bottom of the page to make the writing a tad less terse. Strangely, expanding a paragraph from three lines to four can actually save you a line.

As mentioned in another thread, Final Draft also has an option to break pages at sentences rather than words. It reads quicker, though to me it's not always obvious if the next page is starting with a new paragraph or not.

Final verdict: fixing widows, orphans, rivers, and repetitions can have a minor impact on your page count, but their better use is to break your tunnel-vision and get you to take a second look at what you wrote.


Feature-length scripts:
Who Wants to Be a Princess? (Family)
Glass House (Horror anthology)

TV pilots:
"Kord" (Fantasy)
"Mal Suerte" (Superhero)

Additional scripts are listed here.

Revision History (2 edits; 1 reasons shown)
FrankM  -  December 30th, 2018, 4:33pm
Fixed grammar
Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 13 - 42
Lon
Posted: December 30th, 2018, 4:27pm Report to Moderator
New



Location
Louisville
Posts
403
Posts Per Day
0.06
Besides padding the page count (similar to stacking action) they can make the script a chore to read.  A script should flow.  Imagine breathing in tiny, staccato fragments.  That's what it feels like to read a script riddled with orphans/widows/stacked action.  

The Nun is a case in point.  Page after page of orphans/widows/stacked action.  It was a thoroughly frustrating reading experience.  Cut those things out and the script would have been half as long.
Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 14 - 42
 Pages: 1, 2, 3 » : All
Recommend Print

Locked Board Board Index    Screenwriting Class  [ previous | next ] Switch to:
Was Portal Recent Posts Home Help Calendar Search Register Login

Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post polls
You may not post attachments
HTML is on
Blah Code is on
Smilies are on


Powered by E-Blah Platinum 9.71B © 2001-2006