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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Screenwriting Discussion    Screenwriting Class  ›  The Rules - Formatting fatigue Moderators: George Willson
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  Author    The Rules - Formatting fatigue  (currently 9456 views)
Grandma Bear
Posted: March 27th, 2019, 8:54pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Demento

Let's be honest, he has reviewed the first two pages of 99% of the features he's opened here.

Not quite. For years, he was the most prolific reader here and he gave pages worth of feedback. Mostly features too.  


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Warren
Posted: March 27th, 2019, 8:59pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Grandma Bear
Jeff, over the millions of years you and I have both been here, you have reviewed more scripts, especially features, than anyone else that I can recall. You definitely have a lot to  offer as far as helping people. IMO though, your delivery could need some tweaking. As writers, we appreciate feedback, but sometimes if the feedback is harsh it can really crush a writer's spirit. Or at least the will and energy to want to implement your advice in a rewrite. I know you're a big teddy bear or a fluffy badger, whichever you prefer, why not show some of that softer side when giving your feedback? Your feedback is valid, just served like a blow to the head with a frying pan sometimes.



I agree that Jeff provides indepth reviews, I think the issue, at least in terms of this argument, is not the way it's delivered but that a lot of the information is given as fact and gospel with no wiggle room, and in reality that just isn't the case.


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Lon
Posted: March 27th, 2019, 9:02pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Warren



There are a lot of pro writers that are using parentheticals wrong then. I'm sorry but I'm just not buying this. I think subtext comes through in dialogue and action, While I don’t disagree that it could be used for subtext (although I don’t think this is the most effective way to illustrate subtext, and I personally think it’s a lazy way to do it), I personally don’t use them this way, and I don’t feel I’m using them incorrectly. Where does it say that this is the way to use them?

I’m sorry, but of course we want to direct the scene, it’s our bloody story. What directors do with it after that is there problem. Tell your story the way you want to tell it!



Yeah, there are a lot of pro writers that break the rules.  Know why?  Because they're pros. They can afford to.  They've earned that kind of wiggle room.  They've already proven that they can successfully tell an interesting story with interesting characters, and in format, following guidelines.  And so, since it's already known they can deliver the story and character goods, they get some slack on the format.  

It's no different than any other profession, really.  Once you've established that you can do the job well and follow the rules, you get promoted, and with promotion comes more freedom to do things your way.  

There are expectations a new writer is going to have to meet, whether they agree with them or not.  Talk about pro writers, even Tarantino, whose scripts IMO have gotten to the point where they're practically unreadable because of all the asides and unfilmables and self-indulgences he wallows in on every page, started out writing spec scripts, in format, following spec script guidelines.  Sure, he might have pushed certain format/guidelines boundaries, but his stories were strong enough that they made those small foibles forgivable.  And now that he's proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that he's a fantastic filmmaker -- and, just as important to note, since he directs his own scripts and doesn't have to worry about another director not getting the jist of his writing -- he can bend the rules over the desk and boink them silly if he wants, and no producer on earth would give him shit for it.

As I mentioned previously, the purpose of this site is to teach new writers how to write a screenplay.  Not how to write a screenplay incorrectly.  And you don't teach someone how to do a thing by first telling them to ignore the rules.  That would be crazy, like, I don't know, some reality star who has never held a political office in their life being handed the presidency.   I mean, can you imagine?  It would just be one giant cluster-fuck.
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Dreamscale
Posted: March 27th, 2019, 9:08pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Demento
Let's be honest, he has reviewed the first two pages of 99% of the features he's opened here.

This is why I want his book. So others can read it, learn and he can reach at least page 10 before he checks out.

What's great about Jeff is that he's a real stickler for rules and use of language in scripts. Like the biggest one here. It really irritates him and he's very pedantic. So, it gives off the impression that he's a sophisticated man. But when you read his movie reviews, you see that he really loves nudity in movies, he really loves it when women show their breasts. Like really. This is super important to him, he always points it out. He's a fan of gore, not just regular gore, like super gore. This is a man that gave a glowing review to I Spit On Your Grave 2 (yes, I remember). I find it all so fascinating.


Oh boy...

Brother, back in the day, I read entire scripts with no prompting and I gave extremely detailed reviews, not just format type things, but story situations that made no sense.

No one reads whole scripts anymore...OK, not NO ONE, but very, very few.  It's great when you see a review of the first 10, because that's basically all anyone is going to give these days.

Do I like nudity and gore in movies?  Hell yeah, I do.  Do I appreciate movies where there is none of that?  Hell yeah, I do.

I Spit on Your Grave 2 was a good flick.  It took chances.  It pushed the envelope for me.

Note my reviews of other genre movies.  Rom Coms, even!

Dude, I bet I've reviewed more flicks on SS than anyone else.  If you don't agree with my reviews, add it to all the "Pro Critics" reviews you don't agree with.

Am I a "sophisticated man"?     Dude...I can be, when I need to be.  I'm a Kid at heart, though, and if that's a bad thing, I won't apologize.
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eldave1
Posted: March 27th, 2019, 9:08pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Lon



Yeah, there are a lot of pro writers that break the rules.  Know why?  Because they're pros. They can afford to.  They've earned that kind of wiggle room.  They've already proven that they can successfully tell an interesting story with interesting characters, and in format, following guidelines.  And so, since it's already known they can deliver the story and character goods, they get some slack on the format.  

It's no different than any other profession, really.  Once you've established that you can do the job well and follow the rules, you get promoted, and with promotion comes more freedom to do things your way.  

There are expectations a new writer is going to have to meet, whether they agree with them or not.  Talk about pro writers, even Tarantino, whose scripts IMO have gotten to the point where they're practically unreadable because of all the asides and unfilmables and self-indulgences he wallows in on every page, started out writing spec scripts, in format, following spec script guidelines.  Sure, he might have pushed certain format/guidelines boundaries, but his stories were strong enough that they made those small foibles forgivable.  And now that he's proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that he's a fantastic filmmaker -- and, just as important to note, since he directs his own scripts and doesn't have to worry about another director not getting the jist of his writing -- he can bend the rules over the desk and boink them silly if he wants, and no producer on earth would give him shit for it.

As I mentioned previously, the purpose of this site is to teach new writers how to write a screenplay.  Not how to write a screenplay incorrectly.  And you don't teach someone how to do a thing by first telling them to ignore the rules.  That would be crazy, like, I don't know, some reality star who has never held a political office in their life being handed the presidency.   I mean, can you imagine?  It would just be one giant cluster-fuck.


Lon - don't think anyone disagrees with the premise that a screenplay should be written correctly.  The issue is what is correct  or incorrect.

Thanks for your last line.  Belly laughs from me


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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Dreamscale
Posted: March 27th, 2019, 9:11pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Lon
Yeah, there are a lot of pro writers that break the rules.  Know why?  Because they're pros. They can afford to.  They've earned that kind of wiggle room.  They've already proven that they can successfully tell an interesting story with interesting characters, and in format, following guidelines.  And so, since it's already known they can deliver the story and character goods, they get some slack on the format.  

It's no different than any other profession, really.  Once you've established that you can do the job well and follow the rules, you get promoted, and with promotion comes more freedom to do things your way.  

There are expectations a new writer is going to have to meet, whether they agree with them or not.  Talk about pro writers, even Tarantino, whose scripts IMO have gotten to the point where they're practically unreadable because of all the asides and unfilmables and self-indulgences he wallows in on every page, started out writing spec scripts, in format, following spec script guidelines.  Sure, he might have pushed certain format/guidelines boundaries, but his stories were strong enough that they made those small foibles forgivable.  And now that he's proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that he's a fantastic filmmaker -- and, just as important to note, since he directs his own scripts and doesn't have to worry about another director not getting the jist of his writing -- he can bend the rules over the desk and boink them silly if he wants, and no producer on earth would give him shit for it.

As I mentioned previously, the purpose of this site is to teach new writers how to write a screenplay.  Not how to write a screenplay incorrectly.  And you don't teach someone how to do a thing by first telling them to ignore the rules.  That would be crazy, like, I don't know, some reality star who has never held a political office in their life being handed the presidency.   I mean, can you imagine?  It would just be one giant cluster-fuck.


Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes...and no...

Only the political thing do I disagree with.  But the QT thing, so damn true...  

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LC
Posted: March 27th, 2019, 9:12pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from eldave1
I'd rather be Wrylie Coyote and have Jeff be Little Orphan Angry. Can you work that in?

I go out, I come back...
At least, at last, some comedic relief amongst the beating of a dead horse.  




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Demento
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Quoted from Lon

Yeah, there are a lot of pro writers that break the rules.  Know why?  Because they're pros. They can afford to.  They've earned that kind of wiggle room.  They've already proven that they can successfully tell an interesting story with interesting characters, and in format, following guidelines.  And so, since it's already known they can deliver the story and character goods, they get some slack on the format.  


This is not true. We've seen funky looking spec-scripts from unknown writers sell in the past. They have been discussed here. There was a 45 page feature with no dialogue that sold a few years back. There have been different examples that have been discussed here.

While it's understood that if you follow "the rules" people will think you know what you're doing, especially if you're submitting it yourself. What's FAR more important is to have a good agent and a good concept to sell. In that case, you can add POV, TRACKING SHOT, and use all the wrylies you want. It probably won't make any difference.
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Demento
Posted: March 27th, 2019, 9:15pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
Am I a "sophisticated man"?     Dude...I can be, when I need to be.  I'm a Kid at heart, though, and if that's a bad thing, I won't apologize.


Nothing I said had any ill intentions. I'm just fascinated by the dichotomy. Keep being you. It's the only thing we can do.
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Warren
Posted: March 27th, 2019, 9:16pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Lon



Yeah, there are a lot of pro writers that break the rules.  Know why?  Because they're pros. They can afford to.  They've earned that kind of wiggle room.  They've already proven that they can successfully tell an interesting story with interesting characters, and in format, following guidelines.  And so, since it's already known they can deliver the story and character goods, they get some slack on the format.  

It's no different than any other profession, really.  Once you've established that you can do the job well and follow the rules, you get promoted, and with promotion comes more freedom to do things your way.  

There are expectations a new writer is going to have to meet, whether they agree with them or not.  Talk about pro writers, even Tarantino, whose scripts IMO have gotten to the point where they're practically unreadable because of all the asides and unfilmables and self-indulgences he wallows in on every page, started out writing spec scripts, in format, following spec script guidelines.  Sure, he might have pushed certain format/guidelines boundaries, but his stories were strong enough that they made those small foibles forgivable.  And now that he's proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that he's a fantastic filmmaker -- and, just as important to note, since he directs his own scripts and doesn't have to worry about another director not getting the jist of his writing -- he can bend the rules over the desk and boink them silly if he wants, and no producer on earth would give him shit for it.

As I mentioned previously, the purpose of this site is to teach new writers how to write a screenplay.  Not how to write a screenplay incorrectly.  And you don't teach someone how to do a thing by first telling them to ignore the rules.  That would be crazy, like, I don't know, some reality star who has never held a political office in their life being handed the presidency.   I mean, can you imagine?  It would just be one giant cluster-fuck.


People keep saying this, but how do you know this is the case? Can you provide a specific example of a pro's first amateur script and then one of their later pro scripts? Or is this just something you've been told a thousand times by other amateurs that aren't actually in the industry? Or have you personally experienced this?

If you can write a compelling story with great character development and arcs, and a theme that resonates with an audience then the rules you think exist aren't going to matter. I believe that correct spelling and grammar is important because there are defined rules. I don't think wrylies, orphans, or asides are important if used effectively and efficiently.

I don't think you are encouraging creativity if everyone has to stick to the rules, which again don't exist. There are conventions and they are ever changing.




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Warren
Posted: March 27th, 2019, 9:24pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


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QT is possibly the worst example, the guy is a force of his own and one of millions of writers in the world. Their are people that completely stand out in every area of life, using QT to make an argument with regards to the greater screenwriting community is laughable.


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ghost and_ghostie gal
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Quoted from Lon

Yeah, there are a lot of pro writers that break the rules.  Know why?  Because they're pros.


I want to know what your source is, too.  Because it just isn't true.  Unless I'm some sort of anomaly.  



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ghost and_ghostie gal  -  March 27th, 2019, 10:22pm
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Lon
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Quoted from Demento


This is not true. We've seen funky looking spec-scripts from unknown writers sell in the past. They have been discussed here. There was a 45 page feature with no dialogue that sold a few years back. There have been different examples that have been discussed here.

While it's understood that if you follow "the rules" people will think you know what you're doing, especially if you're submitting it yourself. What's FAR more important is to have a good agent and a good concept to sell. In that case, you can add POV, TRACKING SHOT, and use all the wrylies you want. It probably won't make any difference.


Invariably in discussions like this, someone comes up with the "but there was this one writer" or "there was this one script."  Those are exceptions.  And consider for a minute that for all we know, the agent took on the writer because they were in an Army unit together, or the prodco brought her script because their children go to the same day care, or the writer's cousin was the studio head's high school girlfriend.  Or it could even be that the prodco met with the writer and just decided, you know what, he's a really nice guy, very open to communication, no ego in the way -- what the hell, let's buy his script.  We can hire someone else to improve it.

Yes, shitty scripts get picked up, and they end up making for shitty movies.  IF they get produced, that is.  Is that what a writer wants on their resume?  Shitty movies?  If you've ever followed the trades regarding a flop, it's almost always the writer who ends up taking the blame.  Not the bad direction, not the lousy acting -- the writer.  The actor can complain that the writer didn't give them enough on the page to work with.  The director can say he filmed what was there as best he could.  But the writer can't blame anyone.  Low man on the totem pole, y'know.

It does no good at all to talk about the one guy who got away with breaking all the rules, when the overwhelming majority can't get away with it.  And again, I have to ask, in a field so packed to the gills with competition, why on earth would you risk lessening your chances by ignoring the same guidelines that everyone else is expected to follow?  Set your script apart with superior storytelling and stronger characters, because all the camera angles and wrylies in the world can't save a shit script.
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Warren
Posted: March 27th, 2019, 9:40pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Lon




Yes, shitty scripts get picked up, and they end up making for shitty movies.  IF they get produced, that is.  Is that what a writer wants on their resume?  Shitty movies?  If you've ever followed the trades regarding a flop, it's almost always the writer who ends up taking the blame.  Not the bad direction, not the lousy acting -- the writer.  The actor can complain that the writer didn't give them enough on the page to work with.  The director can say he filmed what was there as best he could.  But the writer can't blame anyone.  Low man on the totem pole, y'know.



This discussion is about format (Formatting fatigue), no movie was ever shit on screen because of bad format, come on now.

If the writer is being blamed it’s because he wrote a shit story, plain and simple. No amount of following the rules or correct format is going to make a shit story better.

It’s hard to keep this discussion on the rails when the arguments being raised don’t directly relate to the issue.




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Demento
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Quoted from Lon
It does no good at all to talk about the one guy who got away with breaking all the rules, when the overwhelming majority can't get away with it.  And again, I have to ask, in a field so packed to the gills with competition, why on earth would you risk lessening your chances by ignoring the same guidelines that everyone else is expected to follow?  Set your script apart with superior storytelling and stronger characters, because all the camera angles and wrylies in the world can't save a shit script.


Good formatting and "rules" won't save a shit script either.

And it's not just one script, you can find a lot of examples. Two years ago there was 70 page feature that had colored paragraphs in it! The agent that discovered it and the company that bought it didn't care. That script for the babysitter had whole pages with just one sentence in all caps! Several times.

I agree that people should follow screenwriting conventions, especially if you're a nobody. However, don't over-focus on that. Focus on your story, developing a concept, characters. When you reach the point to have your script read by the proper person, as long as it looks like a script, it'll be probably good enough.

If you obsess about the rules, you'll follow them, then you'll feel a sense of accomplishment because you will have written a screenplay the "right way", when in fact you would have done nothing of note.
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