Quoted from Dreamscale Warren, 1 of the points here is that you stated very matter of factly that you will not google something you don't understand or know, and made it seem like that was the writer's fault. Do I have to go back and quote you directly?  C'mon... I'm not calling you any names.  IO'm simply stating a fact that your attitude is very narcissistic, and this is not the 1st time I've mentioned this. When it smells like shit several times, it's most likely shit. You get that?

And I'm telling you once again that you are focusing on a non-issue, A seat is not going to lose you any points, the fact that I don’t know exactly what that seat is makes no difference to the story. But yes a plot point like some Lovecraftian backstory I don’t know, that is the writer's 'fault' as it’s their story, it’s not my responsibility to know that or look into it. The seat makes no difference whatsoever. If the seat was vital to the plot and I didn’t understand, different story altogether.

Try stay on topic.

You do very well insulting me as subtlety as possible, well not that subtle. It doesn’t really worry me . All I'm interested in is people’s thoughts on this subject.

I’ve voiced mine as clearly as I can. I don’t mind if people disagree, that’s the point of discussion. But you take that too far.

Quoted from Warren Love to know what part of Jeff's comments you agree with, for the purpose of this conversation. After all that why I started the thread.

Probably all of them!  

Quoted from Warren Jeff thinks everything I say is wrong and because I hold a certain belief I'm a narcissist.

Noooo...I hold the belief that you're a narcissist, not you...you'd never admit it, and you may not even know what one is.

I don't think everything you say is wrong.  I've gone on file many times, saying I think you're a good writer.  You're a crappy reviewer, but that alone doesn't make you a bad person or wrong all the time.

Quoted from Dreamscale Probably all of them!   Noooo...I hold the belief that you're a narcissist, not you...you'd never admit it, and you may not even know what one is. I don't think everything you say is wrong.  I've gone on file many times, saying I think you're a good writer.  You're a crappy reviewer, but that alone doesn't make you a bad person or wrong all the time.

Again, a post that is completely off the topic of the thread.

I don't need your validation on my writing or my reviewing.

Quoted from Warren Again, a post that is completely off the topic of the thread. I don't need your validation on my writing or my reviewing.

No you don't.  That, I agree with.

Quoted from Zack Thanks for sharing, Dave. That actually clarified quite a bit for me. Just ignore all my previous blabbering. I'm heading back to the OWC thread to dive into the scripts.

My pleasure, Zack

Not taking sides lol, but Jeff, buddy, in one of the war scripts you didn’t know what a Lancaster was!  

I thought there were two or even three parts to the discussion you (Warren) and Jeff were discussing, but I might have missed something?

Motivation and understanding of what and why characters act as they do? You only need watch Lynch films to know interpretation is widely diverse and imho as long as it's intriguing and entertaining and holds an audience, who cares. Go too wide of the mark and obscure and people might stop watching, but then someone like Lynch has a whole cult following

As for the other point I assumed it was about using terminology (unknown to some) and Dave's points are spot on in relation to this. Too highfalutin and you'll lose the reader and possibly bore them.

There's also that matter of using words e.g. jumpseat from different cultures - Brit, Aussie, U.S., we all know we have different vernacular even though we three speak English, and so different colloquialisms come from that 'mother language'.

Then there's jargon, which holds specifically to a particular trade or profession. I love reading or hearing stuff I had no prior knowledge of and it often spurs me to look it up. Broadens education as a writer.

I remember one of Dustin's first scripts posted and Jeff, you were not familiar with a couple of terms he used, and questioned their use.

Finally the Lovecraftian references in a particular OWC script.
I haven't read any HP,  but maybe now I'll seek it out.
Does the script hold up to the unitiated regardless of those references? That'd be the main takeaway for me.

We all have gaps in our inter-cultural knowledge.
It's no big deal but as a writer I say: look it up.
It broadens your general knowledge and repertoire.

Quoted from stevie Not taking sides lol, but Jeff, buddy, in one of the war scripts you didn’t know what a Lancaster was!

While that is funny, I don’t think it’s a case of sides in terms of the actual thread. I have an opinion and I've thoroughly explained why I believe it.

It’s worth pointing out that I have written scripts like this, quite a few, and people did have questions, that’s on me, not the reader.

What would be great if there was an opposing opinion with logic that can be explained?

Like I've said several times now, people can disagree, people can also write script where the motivations aren’t clear; my issue is that it doesn’t then become the reader’s/audience's problem if it isn’t clear.

This discussion was never about a seat, it’s a seat who cares. It’s about motivations like the thread title says.

I did actually google the seat when reading the script and it just looked like a van seat, so the fact that it was called a jump seat only served to pull me out of the story. If the writer had just written seat would it change the story, of course not. But when it comes to the whole purpose of a story, a backstory I don’t know, potentially why characters are acting in a certain way, I'm sorry but I don’t think a reader should be expected to know that, or google it if they don’t.

Yeah Waz as I just posted on the Owc main thread - and as Libby pointed out (the three Aussies lol) sometimes it’s just a culture/nationality thing as well as how much general knowledge the average perp knows   Over the years I’ve had to google a couple of things mid script but I think they were modern references to  a band or movie or what have you.

Naturally if I wrote a script about the Beatles - hmm there’s an idea, can’t believe I’ve never done that - and someone didn’t know what was the tenth song on Revolver or who designed the cover of The White Album, then I would be forced to track them down and punish them

Quoted from LC I thought there were two or even three parts to the discussion you (Warren) and Jeff were discussing, but I might have missed something? Motivation and understanding of what and why characters act as they do? You only need watch Lynch films to know interpretation is widely diverse and imho as long as it's intriguing and entertaining and holds an audience, who cares. Go too wide of the mark and obscure and people might stop watching, but then someone like Lynch has a whole cult following As for the other point I assumed it was about using terminology (unknown to some) and Dave's points are spot on in relation to this. Too highfalutin and you'll lose the reader and possibly bore them. There's also that matter of using words e.g. jumpseat from different cultures - Brit, Aussie, U.S., we all know we have different vernacular even though we three speak English, and so different colloquialisms come from that 'mother language'. Then there's jargon, which holds specifically to a particular trade or profession. I love reading or hearing stuff I had no prior knowledge of and it often spurs me to look it up. Broadens education as a writer. I remember one of Dustin's first scripts posted and Jeff, you were not familiar with a couple of terms he used, and questioned their use. Finally the Lovecraftian references in a particular OWC script. I haven't read any HP,  but maybe now I'll seek it out. Does the script hold up to the unitiated regardless of those references? That'd be the main takeaway for me. We all have gaps in our inter-cultural knowledge. It's no big deal but as a writer I say: look it up. It broadens your general knowledge and repertoire.

My only point was motivation that leads to understanding. Couldn’t care less about an object that doesn’t affect the plot.

Quoted from LC Motivation and understanding of what and why characters act as they do? You only need watch Lynch films to know interpretation is widely diverse and imho as long as it's intriguing and entertaining and holds an audience, who cares. Go too wide of the mark and obscure and people might stop watching, but then someone like Lynch has a whole cult following

I completely agree with this, I’ve said it several times. Do what you want, but it’s not the audiences fault if they don’t understand. That’s been my point the whole time. My PERSONAL PREFERANCE is a story with clear motivations as I find them more engaging

Everything else was added to distract form the actual discussion

Quoted from LC Finally the Lovecraftian references in a particular OWC script. I haven't read any HP,  but maybe now I'll seek it out. Does the script hold up to the unitiated regardless of those references? That'd be the main takeaway for me.

And that’s great that you want to do that, but is it expected? Of course not. If the script or film isn’t clear it’s not the reader’s job to look into it. Sure you can write for a particular audience, an audience that knows Lovecraft’s work, but in an OWC you might not hit that audience.

Quoted from stevie Not taking sides lol, but Jeff, buddy, in one of the war scripts you didn’t know what a Lancaster was!

Exactly.  And I'm pretty sure I said, "is it a plane?"

A writer shouldn't expect a reader to have to continually look things up.  Like everything...and especially another back and forth thread...there are limits, there are lines, and there are certain expectations.

If someone has never seen a mountain before, and they're reading something that talks about mountains, that reader needs to find out what a mountain is.

If a writer is talking about the gestation period of certain ancient mammals, chances are good no one is going to give a fuck about finding out - they'll just buy in and move on.

Bottom line, as I've said several times, if you don't know what something is, fucking spend 25 seconds and google it.  Like Libby said, you may be amazed at all you can learn.

How many peeps knew what/who Janet Horne was?  I fucking googled it and learned alot I had no clue about.  "Alot", Warren....an awful lot!

Quoted from stevie Yeah Waz as I just posted on the Owc main thread - and as Libby pointed out (the three Aussies lol) sometimes it’s just a culture/nationality thing as well as how much general knowledge the average perp knows   Over the years I’ve had to google a couple of things mid script but I think they were modern references to  a band or movie or what have you.

Completely understand, I’ve google things in the past, and I did this time as well. This discussion isn’t about things. It’s about motivations. If the thing doesn’t affect the plot and I have a rough understanding it’s all good.

Jeff had just blown the whole 'Warren wont google if he doesn’t understand' thing way out of proportion, which is his way in most disagreements. I'm not going to look into an entire backstory or author’s past works to gain understanding, Well I might if I’m interested enough, but again it should not expected of me.

Quoted from Dreamscale Exactly.  And I'm pretty sure I said, "is it a plane?" A writer shouldn't expect a reader to have to continually look things up.  Like everything...and especially another back and forth thread...there are limits, there are lines, and there are certain expectations. If someone has never seen a mountain before, and they're reading something that talks about mountains, that reader needs to find out what a mountain is. If a writer is talking about the gestation period of certain ancient mammals, chances are good no one is going to give a fuck about finding out - they'll just buy in and move on. Bottom line, as I've said several times, if you don't know what something is, fucking spend 25 seconds and google it.  Like Libby said, you may be amazed at all you can learn. How many peeps knew what/who Janet Horne was?  I fucking googled it and learned alot I had no clue about.  "Alot", Warren....an awful lot!

25 seconds to learn all there is to know about Lovecraft and be able to place the story into some kind of perspective? Come on.

Like I’ve said it’s not my job to google, if I want to know more I will, if I don’t that’s not expected.

And yet again we are talking about things not motivations.

Jeff, we are talking about motivations, do you get that????? Not things, motivations. One more time, motivations! Read the title of the thread.

It’s only a reflection on you if you keep using "alot". A quick 25 second google search will show that that you are using it incorrectly.

Quoted from Warren 25 seconds to learn all there is to know about Lovecraft and be able to place the story into some kind of perspective? Come on. Like I’ve said it’s not my job to google, if I want to know more I will, if I don’t that’s not expected. And yet again we are talking about things not motivations. Jeff, we are talking about motivations, do you get that????? Not things, motivations. One more time, motivations! Read the title of the thread. It’s only a reflection on you if you keep using "alot". A quick 25 second google search will show that that you are using it incorrectly.

Warren, c'mon, man.  You started this thread based on remarks in the OWC threads.

The things I have brought up are basically quotes from you on certain OWC threads.

Character motivations is a completely different topic...but since you seem to want to zero in on this, let's have at it.

As Zack correctly pointed out, Halloween is a fantastic example of a character motivation that you either get, or you don't.  Peps do things fore the strangest reasons, and many times, for no reason at all.

I honestly think you're grasping at straws here.

Sure, as i always say, with everything, there are lines and there are acceptabilities (how's that for a word?).  You always wish to push the boundaries, and that, in itself, is just fine - sometimes you'll get away with it, sometimes, you won't.

Let it rest.  Go back to your 4 line reviews and bitch about things you don't know.  It's gotta be someone else's fault, right?

Quoted from Dreamscale Warren, c'mon, man.  You started this thread based on remarks in the OWC threads.

Yes my points about motivation and understanding, not what an object is. Again, read the thread title. Also go back and read my comments if you like. Nothing from me about a seat other than in the actual thread of the script.

Quoted from Dreamscale Character motivations is a completely different topic...but since you seem to want to zero in on this, let's have at it.

This is the entire topic!!!! Ha-ha. READ THE THREAD TITLE!!!!!!

If you go back to the Lovecraft script I was talking about why things happened, if you go back to the body swopping script, some thing. The fact that I mentioned a seat was never brought up by me in terms of this conversation, that's all you.

Yes use Zack example, I didn’t say the example was incorrect (I said Zack's understanding about what we were talking about was wrong, just like yours). I've only ever said that if I don’t understand then that’s on the writer not me (as far as motivations go). It was enough of a motivation for me that Micheal was nuts and wanted to return to his hometown to kill again. There are scripts in this OWC with ideas and motivations that you literally can’t try to begin to understand, for me PERSONALLY, that is an issue.

I’m telling you that you are off topic, I'm telling you that you can have your opinion on the subject, I'm telling you that it is the writer's problem if there script's motivations aren’t clear (Unless, like Libby said, that was their intention, but again I don’t have to like it). You are telling me that it’s my problem, you are just flat out wrong here.

You are flat out wrong on a lot of the rubbish you preach. Your reviews are flat out brutal to the point of being malicious. Half the crap you preach isn’t even an actual issue. If you want to help a writer read their whole script and help them. I provide honest feedback, I ask questions of the writer in the hopes that it will generate thoughts on an issue, I don’t go out of my way to be harsh, but I also don’t sugar-coat. If anyone is completely unsatisfied which the reviews I give, I’ll be happy to issue a refund. SS members would do well to not take your opinion as fact.

Like you said a while back in another thread about old dog/new tricks. All your tricks are outdated. You’re right, you can’t teach an old dog new tricks, and you’re over the hill in terms of screenwriting.

You still haven’t addressed the actual issue.

It done with you now. I will only address issues that are on topic.

I’ve tried several times to pull the discussion back to the core issue. I still think this is an interesting topic, I’d love to hear from more people that disagree with me and why.