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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Screenwriting Discussion    Screenwriting Class  ›  Does a script require clear motivations Moderators: George Willson
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  Author    Does a script require clear motivations  (currently 1240 views)
Warren
Posted: April 23rd, 2019, 7:00pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale


Warren, 1 of the points here is that you stated very matter of factly that you will not google something you don't understand or know, and made it seem like that was the writer's fault.

Do I have to go back and quote you directly?  C'mon...

I'm not calling you any names.  IO'm simply stating a fact that your attitude is very narcissistic, and this is not the 1st time I've mentioned this.

When it smells like shit several times, it's most likely shit.

You get that?  



And I'm telling you once again that you are focusing on a non-issue, A seat is not going to lose you any points, the fact that I donít know exactly what that seat is makes no difference to the story. But yes a plot point like some Lovecraftian backstory I donít know, that is the writer's 'fault' as itís their story, itís not my responsibility to know that or look into it. The seat makes no difference whatsoever. If the seat was vital to the plot and I didnít understand, different story altogether.

Try stay on topic.

You do very well insulting me as subtlety as possible, well not that subtle. It doesnít really worry me . All I'm interested in is peopleís thoughts on this subject.

Iíve voiced mine as clearly as I can. I donít mind if people disagree, thatís the point of discussion. But you take that too far.


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Dreamscale
Posted: April 23rd, 2019, 7:01pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Warren
Love to know what part of Jeff's comments you agree with, for the purpose of this conversation. After all that why I started the thread.


Probably all of them!  


Quoted from Warren
Jeff thinks everything I say is wrong and because I hold a certain belief I'm a narcissist.


Noooo...I hold the belief that you're a narcissist, not you...you'd never admit it, and you may not even know what one is.

I don't think everything you say is wrong.  I've gone on file many times, saying I think you're a good writer.  You're a crappy reviewer, but that alone doesn't make you a bad person or wrong all the time.



To ski or not to ski...that's not even a question.
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Warren
Posted: April 23rd, 2019, 7:11pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale


Probably all of them!  



Noooo...I hold the belief that you're a narcissist, not you...you'd never admit it, and you may not even know what one is.

I don't think everything you say is wrong.  I've gone on file many times, saying I think you're a good writer.  You're a crappy reviewer, but that alone doesn't make you a bad person or wrong all the time.



Again, a post that is completely off the topic of the thread.

I don't need your validation on my writing or my reviewing.



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Dreamscale
Posted: April 23rd, 2019, 7:18pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Warren


Again, a post that is completely off the topic of the thread.

I don't need your validation on my writing or my reviewing.



No you don't.  That, I agree with.


To ski or not to ski...that's not even a question.
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eldave1
Posted: April 23rd, 2019, 7:28pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Zack


Thanks for sharing, Dave. That actually clarified quite a bit for me. Just ignore all my previous blabbering. I'm heading back to the OWC thread to dive into the scripts.


My pleasure, Zack


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stevie
Posted: April 23rd, 2019, 7:33pm Report to Moderator
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Not taking sides lol, but Jeff, buddy, in one of the war scripts you didnít know what a Lancaster was!  


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LC
Posted: April 23rd, 2019, 7:42pm Report to Moderator
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I thought there were two or even three parts to the discussion you (Warren) and Jeff were discussing, but I might have missed something?

Motivation and understanding of what and why characters act as they do? You only need watch Lynch films to know interpretation is widely diverse and imho as long as it's intriguing and entertaining and holds an audience, who cares. Go too wide of the mark and obscure and people might stop watching, but then someone like Lynch has a whole cult following

As for the other point I assumed it was about using terminology (unknown to some) and Dave's points are spot on in relation to this. Too highfalutin and you'll lose the reader and possibly bore them.

There's also that matter of using words e.g. jumpseat from different cultures - Brit, Aussie, U.S., we all know we have different vernacular even though we three speak English, and so different colloquialisms come from that 'mother language'.

Then there's jargon, which holds specifically to a particular trade or profession. I love reading or hearing stuff I had no prior knowledge of and it often spurs me to look it up. Broadens education as a writer.

I remember one of Dustin's first scripts posted and Jeff, you were not familiar with a couple of terms he used, and questioned their use.

Finally the Lovecraftian references in a particular OWC script.
I haven't read any HP,  but maybe now I'll seek it out.
Does the script hold up to the unitiated regardless of those references? That'd be the main takeaway for me.

We all have gaps in our inter-cultural knowledge.
It's no big deal but as a writer I say: look it up.
It broadens your general knowledge and repertoire.


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Warren
Posted: April 23rd, 2019, 7:48pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from stevie
Not taking sides lol, but Jeff, buddy, in one of the war scripts you didnít know what a Lancaster was!  


While that is funny, I donít think itís a case of sides in terms of the actual thread. I have an opinion and I've thoroughly explained why I believe it.

Itís worth pointing out that I have written scripts like this, quite a few, and people did have questions, thatís on me, not the reader.

What would be great if there was an opposing opinion with logic that can be explained?

Like I've said several times now, people can disagree, people can also write script where the motivations arenít clear; my issue is that it doesnít then become the readerís/audience's problem if it isnít clear.

This discussion was never about a seat, itís a seat who cares. Itís about motivations like the thread title says.

I did actually google the seat when reading the script and it just looked like a van seat, so the fact that it was called a jump seat only served to pull me out of the story. If the writer had just written seat would it change the story, of course not. But when it comes to the whole purpose of a story, a backstory I donít know, potentially why characters are acting in a certain way, I'm sorry but I donít think a reader should be expected to know that, or google it if they donít.


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stevie
Posted: April 23rd, 2019, 7:57pm Report to Moderator
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Yeah Waz as I just posted on the Owc main thread - and as Libby pointed out (the three Aussies lol) sometimes itís just a culture/nationality thing as well as how much general knowledge the average perp knows   Over the years Iíve had to google a couple of things mid script but I think they were modern references to  a band or movie or what have you.

Naturally if I wrote a script about the Beatles - hmm thereís an idea, canít believe Iíve never done that - and someone didnít know what was the tenth song on Revolver or who designed the cover of The White Album, then I would be forced to track them down and punish them


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Warren
Posted: April 23rd, 2019, 7:58pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from LC
I thought there were two or even three parts to the discussion you (Warren) and Jeff were discussing, but I might have missed something?

Motivation and understanding of what and why characters act as they do? You only need watch Lynch films to know interpretation is widely diverse and imho as long as it's intriguing and entertaining and holds an audience, who cares. Go too wide of the mark and obscure and people might stop watching, but then someone like Lynch has a whole cult following

As for the other point I assumed it was about using terminology (unknown to some) and Dave's points are spot on in relation to this. Too highfalutin and you'll lose the reader and possibly bore them.

There's also that matter of using words e.g. jumpseat from different cultures - Brit, Aussie, U.S., we all know we have different vernacular even though we three speak English, and so different colloquialisms come from that 'mother language'.

Then there's jargon, which holds specifically to a particular trade or profession. I love reading or hearing stuff I had no prior knowledge of and it often spurs me to look it up. Broadens education as a writer.

I remember one of Dustin's first scripts posted and Jeff, you were not familiar with a couple of terms he used, and questioned their use.

Finally the Lovecraftian references in a particular OWC script.
I haven't read any HP,  but maybe now I'll seek it out.
Does the script hold up to the unitiated regardless of those references? That'd be the main takeaway for me.

We all have gaps in our inter-cultural knowledge.
It's no big deal but as a writer I say: look it up.
It broadens your general knowledge and repertoire.


My only point was motivation that leads to understanding. Couldnít care less about an object that doesnít affect the plot.


Quoted from LC
Motivation and understanding of what and why characters act as they do? You only need watch Lynch films to know interpretation is widely diverse and imho as long as it's intriguing and entertaining and holds an audience, who cares. Go too wide of the mark and obscure and people might stop watching, but then someone like Lynch has a whole cult following


I completely agree with this, Iíve said it several times. Do what you want, but itís not the audiences fault if they donít understand. Thatís been my point the whole time. My PERSONAL PREFERANCE is a story with clear motivations as I find them more engaging

Everything else was added to distract form the actual discussion


Quoted from LC
Finally the Lovecraftian references in a particular OWC script.
I haven't read any HP,  but maybe now I'll seek it out.
Does the script hold up to the unitiated regardless of those references? That'd be the main takeaway for me.


And thatís great that you want to do that, but is it expected? Of course not. If the script or film isnít clear itís not the readerís job to look into it. Sure you can write for a particular audience, an audience that knows Lovecraftís work, but in an OWC you might not hit that audience.


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Dreamscale
Posted: April 23rd, 2019, 8:03pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from stevie
Not taking sides lol, but Jeff, buddy, in one of the war scripts you didnít know what a Lancaster was!  


Exactly.  And I'm pretty sure I said, "is it a plane?"

A writer shouldn't expect a reader to have to continually look things up.  Like everything...and especially another back and forth thread...there are limits, there are lines, and there are certain expectations.

If someone has never seen a mountain before, and they're reading something that talks about mountains, that reader needs to find out what a mountain is.

If a writer is talking about the gestation period of certain ancient mammals, chances are good no one is going to give a fuck about finding out - they'll just buy in and move on.

Bottom line, as I've said several times, if you don't know what something is, fucking spend 25 seconds and google it.  Like Libby said, you may be amazed at all you can learn.

How many peeps knew what/who Janet Horne was?  I fucking googled it and learned alot I had no clue about.  "Alot", Warren....an awful lot!



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Warren
Posted: April 23rd, 2019, 8:05pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from stevie
Yeah Waz as I just posted on the Owc main thread - and as Libby pointed out (the three Aussies lol) sometimes itís just a culture/nationality thing as well as how much general knowledge the average perp knows   Over the years Iíve had to google a couple of things mid script but I think they were modern references to  a band or movie or what have you.


Completely understand, Iíve google things in the past, and I did this time as well. This discussion isnít about things. Itís about motivations. If the thing doesnít affect the plot and I have a rough understanding itís all good.

Jeff had just blown the whole 'Warren wont google if he doesnít understand' thing way out of proportion, which is his way in most disagreements. I'm not going to look into an entire backstory or authorís past works to gain understanding, Well I might if Iím interested enough, but again it should not expected of me.


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Warren
Posted: April 23rd, 2019, 8:12pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale


Exactly.  And I'm pretty sure I said, "is it a plane?"

A writer shouldn't expect a reader to have to continually look things up.  Like everything...and especially another back and forth thread...there are limits, there are lines, and there are certain expectations.

If someone has never seen a mountain before, and they're reading something that talks about mountains, that reader needs to find out what a mountain is.

If a writer is talking about the gestation period of certain ancient mammals, chances are good no one is going to give a fuck about finding out - they'll just buy in and move on.

Bottom line, as I've said several times, if you don't know what something is, fucking spend 25 seconds and google it.  Like Libby said, you may be amazed at all you can learn.

How many peeps knew what/who Janet Horne was?  I fucking googled it and learned alot I had no clue about.  "Alot", Warren....an awful lot!



25 seconds to learn all there is to know about Lovecraft and be able to place the story into some kind of perspective? Come on.

Like Iíve said itís not my job to google, if I want to know more I will, if I donít thatís not expected.

And yet again we are talking about things not motivations.

Jeff, we are talking about motivations, do you get that????? Not things, motivations. One more time, motivations! Read the title of the thread.

Itís only a reflection on you if you keep using "alot". A quick 25 second google search will show that that you are using it incorrectly.


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Dreamscale
Posted: April 23rd, 2019, 8:27pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


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Quoted from Warren
25 seconds to learn all there is to know about Lovecraft and be able to place the story into some kind of perspective? Come on.

Like Iíve said itís not my job to google, if I want to know more I will, if I donít thatís not expected.

And yet again we are talking about things not motivations.

Jeff, we are talking about motivations, do you get that????? Not things, motivations. One more time, motivations! Read the title of the thread.

Itís only a reflection on you if you keep using "alot". A quick 25 second google search will show that that you are using it incorrectly.


Warren, c'mon, man.  You started this thread based on remarks in the OWC threads.

The things I have brought up are basically quotes from you on certain OWC threads.

Character motivations is a completely different topic...but since you seem to want to zero in on this, let's have at it.

As Zack correctly pointed out, Halloween is a fantastic example of a character motivation that you either get, or you don't.  Peps do things fore the strangest reasons, and many times, for no reason at all.

I honestly think you're grasping at straws here.

Sure, as i always say, with everything, there are lines and there are acceptabilities (how's that for a word?).  You always wish to push the boundaries, and that, in itself, is just fine - sometimes you'll get away with it, sometimes, you won't.

Let it rest.  Go back to your 4 line reviews and bitch about things you don't know.  It's gotta be someone else's fault, right?



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Warren
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Quoted from Dreamscale


Warren, c'mon, man.  You started this thread based on remarks in the OWC threads.



Yes my points about motivation and understanding, not what an object is. Again, read the thread title. Also go back and read my comments if you like. Nothing from me about a seat other than in the actual thread of the script.


Quoted from Dreamscale
Character motivations is a completely different topic...but since you seem to want to zero in on this, let's have at it.


This is the entire topic!!!! Ha-ha. READ THE THREAD TITLE!!!!!!

If you go back to the Lovecraft script I was talking about why things happened, if you go back to the body swopping script, some thing. The fact that I mentioned a seat was never brought up by me in terms of this conversation, that's all you.

Yes use Zack example, I didnít say the example was incorrect (I said Zack's understanding about what we were talking about was wrong, just like yours). I've only ever said that if I donít understand then thatís on the writer not me (as far as motivations go). It was enough of a motivation for me that Micheal was nuts and wanted to return to his hometown to kill again. There are scripts in this OWC with ideas and motivations that you literally canít try to begin to understand, for me PERSONALLY, that is an issue.

Iím telling you that you are off topic, I'm telling you that you can have your opinion on the subject, I'm telling you that it is the writer's problem if there script's motivations arenít clear (Unless, like Libby said, that was their intention, but again I donít have to like it). You are telling me that itís my problem, you are just flat out wrong here.

You are flat out wrong on a lot of the rubbish you preach. Your reviews are flat out brutal to the point of being malicious. Half the crap you preach isnít even an actual issue. If you want to help a writer read their whole script and help them. I provide honest feedback, I ask questions of the writer in the hopes that it will generate thoughts on an issue, I donít go out of my way to be harsh, but I also donít sugar-coat. If anyone is completely unsatisfied which the reviews I give, Iíll be happy to issue a refund. SS members would do well to not take your opinion as fact.

Like you said a while back in another thread about old dog/new tricks. All your tricks are outdated. Youíre right, you canít teach an old dog new tricks, and youíre over the hill in terms of screenwriting.

You still havenít addressed the actual issue.

It done with you now. I will only address issues that are on topic.

Iíve tried several times to pull the discussion back to the core issue. I still think this is an interesting topic, Iíd love to hear from more people that disagree with me and why.



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