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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Screenwriting Discussion    Screenwriting Class  ›  Widows and Orphans Moderators: George Willson
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JohnI
Posted: June 23rd, 2020, 11:09am Report to Moderator
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okay so I just read an article about polishing one's script - the number two items was windows and orphans (basically the same just one refers to dialogue and the other action.) It basically said besides passive writing (of which I have been guilty and working on changing it) it's the top turnoff to a professional reader.

I try to read scripts everyday - currently reading chinatown - many consider the best script ever. Windows and orphans all over the place. (yes it's the original "spec" script - not shooting or transposed.) i.e on two consecutive pages 16 orphans and 8 windows. (May be reversed I always forget which is which.)

So, what do you guys think of widows and orphans.

Also I've been given the advice many times to 1) never use adhjcetives in a script 2) expresses emotions through actions - I.e. head down instead of sad. and 3) no exposition in action lines or dialogue - Chinatown and about every other good script I've read is full or these.

So what do you guys think?

Figured we needed a goos topic to get this place rolling again - been kinda dead.

John

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LC  -  June 23rd, 2020, 5:41pm
Widowswindows :)
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Dreamscale
Posted: June 23rd, 2020, 1:08pm Report to Moderator
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Orphans are an issue, simply because they are a line waster, assuming the cause of the orphan is overwriting in some form.

Orphans in dialogue are a different beast, really, as what peeps say (in dialogue) is simply what you want them to say - as in there aren't any "mistakes" in dialogue, so you may end up with some dialogue orphans.

I remember reading the script for Black Swan, and I was just appalled at the number of orphans, and if I recall correctly, the version of the script that I read (it was actually a group read here on SS) had an extra 20 pages due to wasted lines with an orphan that didn't need to be there.

For me, it's simply an editing function, as in eveyr time I see an orphan, it draws me to reread the line/passage and 99% of the time, it is very simple to do away with the orphan, without taking a single thing away from the read.

With 50 give or take lines to work with on each page, just think what happens to your feature script of 100 pages when you have 2 orphans on every page.  You have an extra 4 pages in your script.  Do the simple math with 3, 4, 5 orphans per page - your script gets bloated and runs longer than it needs to.

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LC  -  June 23rd, 2020, 3:02pm
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eldave1
Posted: June 23rd, 2020, 2:44pm Report to Moderator
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My opinion,

There is nothing inherently wrong with an orphan.

There is always something wrong if you didn't write a line as efficiently and clearly as possible.

On my second run-through of a script, I always examine each orphan to see if there was a crisper/shorter way to write that line and therefore avoid it. I would guess about 90% of the time I am able to get rid of the orphan by writing the line better.

So, I think I am sync with Jeff here for the most part.


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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Mr. Blonde
Posted: June 23rd, 2020, 3:32pm Report to Moderator
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I would side with Jeff and Dave, as well. The thing about orphans, they don't bother me but if you can get rid of them and shorten your script that little, extra bit, why not do it?

That said, if you have a line worded perfectly and it ends in an orphan, don't make it clunky to remove the orphan.

Ease of comprehension trumps page length any day.


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eldave1
Posted: June 23rd, 2020, 3:38pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Mr. Blonde


Ease of comprehension trumps page length any day.


yep


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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AnthonyCawood
Posted: June 23rd, 2020, 4:17pm Report to Moderator
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Had scripts, short and feature length, read and reviewed by a variety of producers, directors, readers etc... orphans have never come up... life's short, so are orphans, crack on.


Anthony Cawood - Award winning screenwriter
Available Short screenplays - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/short-scripts
Available Feature screenplays - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/feature-film-scripts/
Screenwriting articles - http://www.anthonycawood.co.uk/articles
IMDB Link - http://www.imdb.com/name/nm6495672/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1
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stevie
Posted: June 23rd, 2020, 5:11pm Report to Moderator
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I eliminate them totally as it looks better on the page



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JohnI
Posted: June 23rd, 2020, 9:52pm Report to Moderator
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Basically the way I felt about them. Then I kept reading more and more "the rules" - Then when you read great scripts they don't follow them.

Of corse as you guys pointed out - orphans do serve a purpose - they force you to look at your work and be more concise if possible;e. Seems in the action line it's a lot more possible to remove them then loosing a character's "voice" in dialogue.

I went back in the script I just finished last week and was able to remove all but one orphan and I actually think it read better.

Interesting thing is that Chinatown is 128 pages in original form - probably because of all the orphans - If we try to even get 128 pages read - well - you know that story.

Thanks
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JohnI
Posted: June 23rd, 2020, 9:53pm Report to Moderator
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And steve - you are right - it does make the script look neater without them - just not at the sake of a character's voice.
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Pleb
Posted: June 26th, 2020, 10:57am Report to Moderator
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Going back to the original OP, I think it’s probably best to go with what you see the pros doing whilst taking into account how established they already are and if they have any other roles with that particular project, like being the director for example which can mean they have more power to bend the rules for example.

However I think the main thing is readability, and how well you’re able to tell a good story.

For example people get their nickers in a twist about unfilmables, but that’s just silly. Yes you don’t want to go overboard, but if it helps the reader, who could be the actor playing that role for example, better understand what is going on, then I see no harm in that, and neither do many of the pros from what I can tell.




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JohnI
Posted: June 26th, 2020, 11:03am Report to Moderator
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Max - many of those in famous scripts also.
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Geezis
Posted: June 26th, 2020, 12:29pm Report to Moderator
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Forgive my ignorance but can someone explain "orphans" to me. I'm guilty of over writing, is this the same thing?

Thanks

O


If at first you don't succeed........bribe someone.
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Mr. Blonde
Posted: June 26th, 2020, 12:38pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Geezis
Forgive my ignorance but can someone explain "orphans" to me. I'm guilty of over writing, is this the same thing?

Thanks

O


Usually, yeah, it's related to overwriting. When you write a line of prose (or dialogue, to some people) and it goes onto the next line by one word, that's an orphan.


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eldave1
Posted: June 26th, 2020, 3:03pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Geezis
Forgive my ignorance but can someone explain "orphans" to me. I'm guilty of over writing, is this the same thing?

Thanks

O


Not over-writing per se. Just means when you a single word leak over to the next
line.


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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Mr. Blonde
Posted: June 26th, 2020, 3:15pm Report to Moderator
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What good are choices if they're all bad?

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Quoted from eldave1
Not over-writing per se. Just means when you a single word leak over to the next
line.


Crazy thing is that I've had people tell me this on dialogue. If you have an orphan in your dialogue, don't mess with it, unless you have a better line of dialogue to replace it.


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