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Widows and Orphans (currently 964 views) |
JohnI |
Posted: June 23rd, 2020, 11:09am |
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Posts150 Posts Per Day 0.06 |
okay so I just read an article about polishing one's script - the number two items was windows and orphans (basically the same just one refers to dialogue and the other action.) It basically said besides passive writing (of which I have been guilty and working on changing it) it's the top turnoff to a professional reader.
I try to read scripts everyday - currently reading chinatown - many consider the best script ever. Windows and orphans all over the place. (yes it's the original "spec" script - not shooting or transposed.) i.e on two consecutive pages 16 orphans and 8 windows. (May be reversed I always forget which is which.)
So, what do you guys think of widows and orphans.
Also I've been given the advice many times to 1) never use adhjcetives in a script 2) expresses emotions through actions - I.e. head down instead of sad. and 3) no exposition in action lines or dialogue - Chinatown and about every other good script I've read is full or these.
So what do you guys think?
Figured we needed a goos topic to get this place rolling again - been kinda dead.
John |
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Revision History (1 edits) |
LC - June 23rd, 2020, 5:41pm | Widowswindows :) | | |
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Dreamscale |
Posted: June 23rd, 2020, 1:08pm |
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Orphans are an issue, simply because they are a line waster, assuming the cause of the orphan is overwriting in some form.
Orphans in dialogue are a different beast, really, as what peeps say (in dialogue) is simply what you want them to say - as in there aren't any "mistakes" in dialogue, so you may end up with some dialogue orphans.
I remember reading the script for Black Swan, and I was just appalled at the number of orphans, and if I recall correctly, the version of the script that I read (it was actually a group read here on SS) had an extra 20 pages due to wasted lines with an orphan that didn't need to be there.
For me, it's simply an editing function, as in eveyr time I see an orphan, it draws me to reread the line/passage and 99% of the time, it is very simple to do away with the orphan, without taking a single thing away from the read.
With 50 give or take lines to work with on each page, just think what happens to your feature script of 100 pages when you have 2 orphans on every page. You have an extra 4 pages in your script. Do the simple math with 3, 4, 5 orphans per page - your script gets bloated and runs longer than it needs to. |
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Revision History (2 edits; 1 reasons shown) |
LC - June 23rd, 2020, 3:02pm | | |
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eldave1 |
Posted: June 23rd, 2020, 2:44pm |
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January Project Group
LocationSouthern California Posts6874 Posts Per Day 1.93 |
My opinion,
There is nothing inherently wrong with an orphan.
There is always something wrong if you didn't write a line as efficiently and clearly as possible.
On my second run-through of a script, I always examine each orphan to see if there was a crisper/shorter way to write that line and therefore avoid it. I would guess about 90% of the time I am able to get rid of the orphan by writing the line better.
So, I think I am sync with Jeff here for the most part.
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Mr. Blonde |
Posted: June 23rd, 2020, 3:32pm |
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AdministratorWhat good are choices if they're all bad?
LocationNowhere special. Posts3064 Posts Per Day 0.57 |
I would side with Jeff and Dave, as well. The thing about orphans, they don't bother me but if you can get rid of them and shorten your script that little, extra bit, why not do it?
That said, if you have a line worded perfectly and it ends in an orphan, don't make it clunky to remove the orphan.
Ease of comprehension trumps page length any day. |
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eldave1 |
Posted: June 23rd, 2020, 3:38pm |
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January Project Group
LocationSouthern California Posts6874 Posts Per Day 1.93 |
Ease of comprehension trumps page length any day.
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yep |
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AnthonyCawood |
Posted: June 23rd, 2020, 4:17pm |
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January Project Group
LocationUK Posts4323 Posts Per Day 1.13 |
Had scripts, short and feature length, read and reviewed by a variety of producers, directors, readers etc... orphans have never come up... life's short, so are orphans, crack on. |
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stevie |
Posted: June 23rd, 2020, 5:11pm |
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Of The Ancients
LocationDown Under Posts3441 Posts Per Day 0.61 |
I eliminate them totally as it looks better on the page |
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JohnI |
Posted: June 23rd, 2020, 9:52pm |
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Posts150 Posts Per Day 0.06 |
Basically the way I felt about them. Then I kept reading more and more "the rules" - Then when you read great scripts they don't follow them.
Of corse as you guys pointed out - orphans do serve a purpose - they force you to look at your work and be more concise if possible;e. Seems in the action line it's a lot more possible to remove them then loosing a character's "voice" in dialogue.
I went back in the script I just finished last week and was able to remove all but one orphan and I actually think it read better.
Interesting thing is that Chinatown is 128 pages in original form - probably because of all the orphans - If we try to even get 128 pages read - well - you know that story.
Thanks |
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JohnI |
Posted: June 23rd, 2020, 9:53pm |
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Posts150 Posts Per Day 0.06 |
And steve - you are right - it does make the script look neater without them - just not at the sake of a character's voice. |
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Pleb |
Posted: June 26th, 2020, 10:57am |
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LocationUK Posts444 Posts Per Day 0.15 |
Going back to the original OP, I think it’s probably best to go with what you see the pros doing whilst taking into account how established they already are and if they have any other roles with that particular project, like being the director for example which can mean they have more power to bend the rules for example.
However I think the main thing is readability, and how well you’re able to tell a good story.
For example people get their nickers in a twist about unfilmables, but that’s just silly. Yes you don’t want to go overboard, but if it helps the reader, who could be the actor playing that role for example, better understand what is going on, then I see no harm in that, and neither do many of the pros from what I can tell.
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JohnI |
Posted: June 26th, 2020, 11:03am |
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Posts150 Posts Per Day 0.06 |
Max - many of those in famous scripts also. |
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Geezis |
Posted: June 26th, 2020, 12:29pm |
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January Project Group There's always a single malt waiting for you.
LocationGlasgow, Scotland Posts411 Posts Per Day 0.26 |
Forgive my ignorance but can someone explain "orphans" to me. I'm guilty of over writing, is this the same thing?
Thanks
O |
| If at first you don't succeed........bribe someone. |
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Mr. Blonde |
Posted: June 26th, 2020, 12:38pm |
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AdministratorWhat good are choices if they're all bad?
LocationNowhere special. Posts3064 Posts Per Day 0.57 |
Forgive my ignorance but can someone explain "orphans" to me. I'm guilty of over writing, is this the same thing?
Thanks
O |
Usually, yeah, it's related to overwriting. When you write a line of prose (or dialogue, to some people) and it goes onto the next line by one word, that's an orphan. |
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eldave1 |
Posted: June 26th, 2020, 3:03pm |
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January Project Group
LocationSouthern California Posts6874 Posts Per Day 1.93 |
Forgive my ignorance but can someone explain "orphans" to me. I'm guilty of over writing, is this the same thing?
Thanks
O |
Not over-writing per se. Just means when you a single word leak over to the next line. |
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Mr. Blonde |
Posted: June 26th, 2020, 3:15pm |
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AdministratorWhat good are choices if they're all bad?
LocationNowhere special. Posts3064 Posts Per Day 0.57 |
Not over-writing per se. Just means when you a single word leak over to the next line. |
Crazy thing is that I've had people tell me this on dialogue. If you have an orphan in your dialogue, don't mess with it, unless you have a better line of dialogue to replace it. |
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eldave1 |
Posted: June 26th, 2020, 3:37pm |
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January Project Group
LocationSouthern California Posts6874 Posts Per Day 1.93 |
Crazy thing is that I've had people tell me this on dialogue. If you have an orphan in your dialogue, don't mess with it, unless you have a better line of dialogue to replace it.
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IMO - it doesn't apply to dialogue |
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Mr. Blonde |
Posted: June 26th, 2020, 4:26pm |
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AdministratorWhat good are choices if they're all bad?
LocationNowhere special. Posts3064 Posts Per Day 0.57 |
Some people out there think it does. I don't know how nor why. |
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eldave1 |
Posted: June 26th, 2020, 4:33pm |
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January Project Group
LocationSouthern California Posts6874 Posts Per Day 1.93 |
Some people out there think it does. I don't know how nor why. |
Yeah - I know. I have seen the critiques. Always thought what a moron. |
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stevie |
Posted: June 26th, 2020, 4:55pm |
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Of The Ancients
LocationDown Under Posts3441 Posts Per Day 0.61 |
I avoid them in dialogue too lol |
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eldave1 |
Posted: June 26th, 2020, 6:01pm |
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January Project Group
LocationSouthern California Posts6874 Posts Per Day 1.93 |
I avoid them in dialogue too lol |
DAVE I take it back. Not everyone that has a problem with them in dialogue is a moron. See that orphan there |
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FrankM |
Posted: June 26th, 2020, 6:02pm |
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January Project Group
LocationBetween Chair and Keyboard Posts1447 Posts Per Day 0.62 |
As noted above, they're an inefficient use of space, and you can usually tighten up the action block to get that line back. Sometimes the correct fix is to add a short sentence and just make better use of that line. The term "orphan" technically applies to dialog blocks as well, but given the narrow margins of a dialog block, it's much less of a "sin" and trying to fix it will usually do more harm than good. Note that screenwriting software like Final Draft prefers to put page breaks between whole sentences, so it can create or avoid orphans differently than Word. Here's a link to some examples |
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FrankM - June 26th, 2020, 6:15pm | | |
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stevie |
Posted: June 26th, 2020, 6:09pm |
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Of The Ancients
LocationDown Under Posts3441 Posts Per Day 0.61 |
Lol Dave it’s more my OCD. I just can’t leave that lonely word there |
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eldave1 |
Posted: June 26th, 2020, 7:12pm |
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January Project Group
LocationSouthern California Posts6874 Posts Per Day 1.93 |
Lol Dave it’s more my OCD. I just can’t leave that lonely word there |
Totally understood |
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Geezis |
Posted: June 27th, 2020, 4:04am |
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January Project Group There's always a single malt waiting for you.
LocationGlasgow, Scotland Posts411 Posts Per Day 0.26 |
Thanks everyone, that’s been made clearer for me. |
| If at first you don't succeed........bribe someone. |
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Pleb |
Posted: June 27th, 2020, 5:30am |
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LocationUK Posts444 Posts Per Day 0.15 |
One thing I’d like to add is that if you’re worrying about this stuff you’re probably more concerned about what other writers think than the people who actually count. And if that is the case then you’re writing for the wrong audience. After all writers don’t make films.
I honestly think nobody cares (except some other writers).
So with that in mind I think it’s always better to write for producers, directors and actors. |
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Dreamscale |
Posted: June 27th, 2020, 10:03am |
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One thing I’d like to add is that if you’re worrying about this stuff you’re probably more concerned about what other writers think than the people who actually count. And if that is the case then you’re writing for the wrong audience. After all writers don’t make films.
I honestly think nobody cares (except some other writers).
So with that in mind I think it’s always better to write for producers, directors and actors. |
Well, let's throw out an example again and see if no one would care about this. If you have 5 orphans on every page, in a 100 page feature, you have 500 orphans in your script. Divide that by 50, and you have 10 extra pages of complete waste, meaning, actually you have a 90 page script that's been artificially bloated to 100 pages. It matters. Orphans matter. Get rid of them and send them home to hang out with all the other orphans. |
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Pleb |
Posted: June 27th, 2020, 11:55am |
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LocationUK Posts444 Posts Per Day 0.15 |
I think 5 orphans per page throughout an entire script is incredibly unlikely.
And again, I don’t think orphans matter unless the people who actually make films think they matter, and judging from the amount I’ve seen in screenplays by professional writers, I don’t see any evidence for them being an issue. |
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Revision History (1 edits) |
Pleb - June 27th, 2020, 12:08pm | | |
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Mr. Blonde |
Posted: June 27th, 2020, 12:23pm |
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AdministratorWhat good are choices if they're all bad?
LocationNowhere special. Posts3064 Posts Per Day 0.57 |
I think 5 orphans per page throughout an entire script is incredibly unlikely.
And again, I don’t think orphans matter unless the people who actually make films think they matter, and judging from the amount I’ve seen in screenplays by professional writers, I don’t see any evidence for them being an issue. |
What Jeff is saying is simply that page lengths set expectations. Readers and executives would prefer to see shorter page lengths. Artificial inflation, in that case, is bad. In practice, it actually means nothing. You're both right, but discussing different elements. |
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eldave1 |
Posted: June 27th, 2020, 12:41pm |
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January Project Group
LocationSouthern California Posts6874 Posts Per Day 1.93 |
Quoted from Dreamscale
Well, let's throw out an example again and see if no one would care about this.
If you have 5 orphans on every page, in a 100 page feature, you have 500 orphans in your script. Divide that by 50, and you have 10 extra pages of complete waste, meaning, actually you have a 90 page script that's been artificially bloated to 100 pages.
It matters. Orphans matter. Get rid of them and send them home to hang out with all the other orphans.
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I read the script for "Annie". There were at least five orphans on every page. |
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Mr. Blonde |
Posted: June 27th, 2020, 12:50pm |
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AdministratorWhat good are choices if they're all bad?
LocationNowhere special. Posts3064 Posts Per Day 0.57 |
I read the script for "Annie". There were at least five orphans on every page. |
Oh, Dave... Dave, Dave, Dave... Lol. |
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eldave1 |
Posted: June 27th, 2020, 1:00pm |
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January Project Group
LocationSouthern California Posts6874 Posts Per Day 1.93 |
Oh, Dave... Dave, Dave, Dave... Lol.
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