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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Screenwriting Discussion    Screenwriting Class  ›  Strange formatting question Moderators: George Willson
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  Author    Strange formatting question  (currently 1156 views)
JohnI
Posted: May 17th, 2021, 4:16pm Report to Moderator
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Got a read back from a producer (not a big one) Although he passed, he diid take the time to write some constructive criticism. Some solid - some out in left field. There were two things that floored me.

1) I have always learned that V.O. was used when a person wasn't in the scene but was heard (i.e. voice over or phone conversation) O.S. was in the room but not in the camera. (i.e. somebody in the hallway, etc.) The producer told me that using V.O. in phone conversations I rechecked Trottier - he uses V.O. as well as others. Which is right.

2) when using an "INSERT:" (i.e. a photo, etc.) I always learned (again - backed by trottier) that you needed "Back to scene" after the insert. He said it wasn't wrong and took up a lot of room.

What's your thoughts.

Thanks
John
PS If he was buying the script - he'd be right regardless of what anybody thinks. lol
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eldave1
Posted: May 17th, 2021, 4:36pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from JohnI
Got a read back from a producer (not a big one) Although he passed, he diid take the time to write some constructive criticism. Some solid - some out in left field. There were two things that floored me.

1) I have always learned that V.O. was used when a person wasn't in the scene but was heard (i.e. voice over or phone conversation) O.S. was in the room but not in the camera. (i.e. somebody in the hallway, etc.) The producer told me that using V.O. in phone conversations I rechecked Trottier - he uses V.O. as well as others. Which is right.

2) when using an "INSERT:" (i.e. a photo, etc.) I always learned (again - backed by trottier) that you needed "Back to scene" after the insert. He said it wasn't wrong and took up a lot of room.

What's your thoughts.

Thanks
John
PS If he was buying the script - he'd be right regardless of what anybody thinks. lol


He's wrong


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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ReneC
Posted: May 17th, 2021, 4:46pm Report to Moderator
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If I'm reading your questions correctly, yes, V.O. would be used for phone conversations, and no, you do not need BACK TO SCENE after an insert as long as the insert is contained to the single paragraph following INSERT: .


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Robert Timsah
Posted: May 18th, 2021, 12:30am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from JohnI
Got a read back from a producer (not a big one) Although he passed, he diid take the time to write some constructive criticism. Some solid - some out in left field. There were two things that floored me.

1) I have always learned that V.O. was used when a person wasn't in the scene but was heard (i.e. voice over or phone conversation) O.S. was in the room but not in the camera. (i.e. somebody in the hallway, etc.) The producer told me that using V.O. in phone conversations I rechecked Trottier - he uses V.O. as well as others. Which is right.

2) when using an "INSERT:" (i.e. a photo, etc.) I always learned (again - backed by trottier) that you needed "Back to scene" after the insert. He said it wasn't wrong and took up a lot of room.

What's your thoughts.

Thanks
John
PS If he was buying the script - he'd be right regardless of what anybody thinks. lol


Breaking the rules for an easier read is a lot of fun. But it does not please the formatting gurus.


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Lon
Posted: May 18th, 2021, 12:56pm Report to Moderator
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VO would be the accurate thing to use with a voice on the phone. OS is when a character is physically present in the scene, but not on-camera. VO is when the character is neither physically present, nor on-camera. It applies to voices on the phone, over a car radio, over a walkie talkie, etc. It's also used for a narrator's voice, though I'd argue you don't really need VO for a narrator, because the very fact that it's a narrator means the person is neither present nor on-camera. VO would be redundant (IMO, anyway).

As for inserts, as with most camera and/or editing directions, I'm not a fan. There are other ways to lead the reader's eye and/or make them see a specific image that don't involve intrusive directions. To wit;

Bob flips open his wallet.

INSERT - WALLET

We see Bob's driver's license.

BACK TO SCENE

Bob flips the wallet shut.


That's a lot of space and unnecessary direction for something you could more easily write as:

Bob flips his wallet open, checks that his LICENSE is inside, then flips it closed.

When you saw "LICENSE" in caps, did you envision an open wallet with a driver's license photo staring back at you? If so, I just invoked a specific image in your mind's eye without using a single direction.

But then I'm one of those persnickety, "camera directions are never necessary" type writers. My job is to provide the what. I'll let the director worry about the how.
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eldave1
Posted: May 18th, 2021, 3:29pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Lon
VO would be the accurate thing to use with a voice on the phone. OS is when a character is physically present in the scene, but not on-camera. VO is when the character is neither physically present, nor on-camera. It applies to voices on the phone, over a car radio, over a walkie talkie, etc. It's also used for a narrator's voice, though I'd argue you don't really need VO for a narrator, because the very fact that it's a narrator means the person is neither present nor on-camera. VO would be redundant (IMO, anyway).

As for inserts, as with most camera and/or editing directions, I'm not a fan. There are other ways to lead the reader's eye and/or make them see a specific image that don't involve intrusive directions. To wit;

Bob flips open his wallet.

INSERT - WALLET

We see Bob's driver's license.

BACK TO SCENE

Bob flips the wallet shut.


That's a lot of space and unnecessary direction for something you could more easily write as:

Bob flips his wallet open, checks that his LICENSE is inside, then flips it closed.

When you saw "LICENSE" in caps, did you envision an open wallet with a driver's license photo staring back at you? If so, I just invoked a specific image in your mind's eye without using a single direction.

But then I'm one of those persnickety, "camera directions are never necessary" type writers. My job is to provide the what. I'll let the director worry about the how.


I like this advice


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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eldave1
Posted: May 19th, 2021, 4:53pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from ReneC
If I'm reading your questions correctly, yes, V.O. would be used for phone conversations, and no, you do not need BACK TO SCENE after an insert as long as the insert is contained to the single paragraph following INSERT: .


Rene: I like this approach - but can't find a reference on it. Everything I have read says BACK TO SCENE  unless a master scene heading or a secondary headings follows anyway.


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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FrankM
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Quoted from eldave1
Rene: I like this approach - but can't find a reference on it. Everything I have read says BACK TO SCENE  unless a master scene heading or a secondary headings follows anyway.


I'm with Dave on this one... it'd be nice if this was the rule, but I don't see any evidence that professional readers would be forgiving of it.

FAVOR: or ANGLE ON: or CLOSE ON:, on the other hand, behave precisely this way. The problem is that those can be interpreted as camera directions, and spec writers are usually advised to avoid those.


Feature-length scripts:
Who Wants to Be a Princess? (Family)
Glass House (Horror anthology)

TV pilots:
"Kord" (Fantasy)
"Mal Suerte" (Superhero)

Additional scripts are listed here.

Revision History (1 edits)
FrankM  -  May 20th, 2021, 7:21pm
Fixed typo
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ReneC
Posted: May 19th, 2021, 8:23pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from eldave1


Rene: I like this approach - but can't find a reference on it. Everything I have read says BACK TO SCENE  unless a master scene heading or a secondary headings follows anyway.


The way I've seen it is INSERT: A photo of dead mom.

No need for BACK TO SCENE, it's a one-and-done insert.

Or, you can do it like John August suggests: What is an insert?

There again, there is no BACK TO SCENE.


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JohnI
Posted: May 20th, 2021, 10:24am Report to Moderator
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It is amazing the variance in rules. The BACK TO SCENE - I follow because of Trittier and scripts I read. But the VO vs OS - dont know how a producer got that wrong and harped on it.  

As for the BANK TO SCENE - I think it can get confusing if you leave it out, but I think the biggest thing is to be consistent.  

Had an old read A couple of years ago) tell me I should take courses because I didnt know how to format in that I forgot FADE IN and FADE OUT LOL - on a spec.

Just so you know - I had professional coverage on the script twice and both said very well formatted. (Only question was the intro quote on Black screen - looked it up and about twenty different ways listed to do this - again I went with trottier)

My question originally started because we work so hard to be perfect than a producer says we’re wrong when we’re not.  But they have the money - so theyre right.
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ReneC
Posted: May 20th, 2021, 10:32am Report to Moderator
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The golden rule is there are no rules. As long as what you write is clear, you'll be okay.

I've heard of producers getting tripped up on the most ridiculous things. It isn't you. There are a lot of amateur producers out there, and there are a lot of scared ones who feel the need to find something to pick on to show they're contributing something. I've found the ones who focus on the actual producing don't give a crap about how something is specifically formatted as long as they know how to shoot for it.


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eldave1
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As always - to me CLARITY is King. Readability is a close second.  Format rules/guidelines, etc should be messed with if the help clarity or readability.

John - what I found so odd about your reader - is that they got it technically wrong. i.e., I would understand if they thought you should have written BACK TO SCENE when you didn't - not the inverse.


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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JohnI
Posted: May 21st, 2021, 10:56am Report to Moderator
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Yeah. Same here.
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BarryJohn
Posted: May 24th, 2021, 8:29am Report to Moderator
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Just to point on V.O in a phone call... It must not be used! I phone call scene is done in one of three ways.
- Intercut phone call: Both conversing characters are brought into/onto the screen as they individually speak - thus, no V.O This is the most popular way to write it.

Intercut phone call between Mike and Mary:

               Mike
     Hi Mary, you well?

               Mary
     Yes, great to hear from you

- Only one character speaking (dialogue) over the phone, the other is not heard - thus no V.O. Here this character when "speaking" will have PAUSE or BREAK inserted.
- Duel/split: One character speaking on the left, the other on the right side of the page... here the Director will decide whether to split-screen film or duel/split it?      


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Matthew Taylor
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Quoted from BarryJohn
Just to point on V.O in a phone call... It must not be used! I phone call scene is done in one of three ways.
- Intercut phone call: Both conversing characters are brought into/onto the screen as they individually speak - thus, no V.O This is the most popular way to write it.

Intercut phone call between Mike and Mary:

               Mike
     Hi Mary, you well?

               Mary
     Yes, great to hear from you

- Only one character speaking (dialogue) over the phone, the other is not heard - thus no V.O. Here this character when "speaking" will have PAUSE or BREAK inserted.
- Duel/split: One character speaking on the left, the other on the right side of the page... here the Director will decide whether to split-screen film or duel/split it?      


Must you give out incorrect advice? It's perfectly fine to use V.O for someone on the other end of the phone (Read any book ever written on screenplay format)

You may prefer the other methods listed, and offering them as alternatives is fine. But to say that V.O "Must not be used" is just bad (and incorrect) advice.


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Two steps to writing a good screenplay:
1) Write a bad one
2) Fix it
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