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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Unproduced Screenplay Discussion    Short Scripts  ›  Soulshadows II: Key To My Heart Moderators: bert
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  Author    Soulshadows II: Key To My Heart  (currently 15206 views)
Don
Posted: January 14th, 2010, 5:56pm Report to Moderator
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So, what are you writing?

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Soulshadows II: Key To My Heart by Jeff Bush (dreamscale) (Tanis by Robert Newcomer) - Series, Supernatural, Horror - Logan sure loves the girls.  You could say he's a real lady killer.  Wait till he gets a load of Maia. 26 pages - pdf, format


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Don  -  January 14th, 2010, 8:32pm
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Grandma Bear
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i've read 10 pages so far!  

You sir, should write prose!!

Meaning bert...



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Grandma Bear  -  January 14th, 2010, 11:46pm
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steven8
Posted: January 14th, 2010, 11:37pm Report to Moderator
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I've never trusted Packer-Backers and now I never will!

Hoo, Haa!  Jeff, you told me this was going to be loaded with gore and blood, and whatnot, and that is why I'm still sitting here smiling and chuckling well after the read.  It sure as hell was!  

What a terrific gruesome little tale.  Oddly enough, though, it didn't smack of horror to me.  Oh, to be sure, it had all the earmarks of horror, but it was quaintly mixed with an Amazing Tales type of feel.  It flowed so smoothly it felt like I'd read a 10 page short.  Natural dialog and well told action, smoothly transitioning into the 'second half' of the story.  Which, by the way, is just the ending I'd love to see for a sicko!  Who ever thought that the Key to a Heart would be a 'skeleton key'?

In short, this is Jeff Bush quality writing, and I loved it!  Get in here and check this out, you guys.


...in no particular order
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greg
Posted: January 14th, 2010, 11:46pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Jeff,

Wow.  Haha.  I wasn't expecting something that extreme, but I was very pleasantly surprised with how this script panned out.

The first half of it was cheesy and, honestly, I wasn't expecting a huge payoff, but the extreme lengths that you took in the second half really blew me away and then everything came into focus.  It's cheesy because, well, it's supposed to be.  This Logan/Tyler guy was just a doucheface creep and you did a great job of building up the story with his courting of Emma and their trip to Door.  At that point you went from cheesy pleasantry to bloody craziness and I really enjoyed it.

The sense of dread built up nicely while Logan was going to work on Emma and you didn't hold back at all.  Kudos to you.  The concept of Maia's character I think was a cool one, especially for a short such as this.  Let's be honest, people like Logan, even without his murderous rampage, can go play in traffic for all we care, so it was nice for Maia to basically be the voice of the little guy(or, in this case, the girls that were taken advantage of...and...killed).  

The only thing I'd point out is that I felt there should have been more security at the Packers games.  The three girls in the beginning talked about the previous abductions, so this is a pretty regular thing, right?  So, I was expecting a much larger police presence at the pre-game festivities, especially considering that Madison and Alyssa know what Logan looks like so they could have provided information to the cops and, if history was any guide, they'd be all over the tailgate parties looking for him since he's struck at the last three home games.  In the bigger picture this is actually pretty minor, but maybe something to just add to a future draft.

But other than that this was gross, dark, and pretty cool and I really enjoyed it, so very nice job, Jeff!  

-Greg


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Don
Posted: January 15th, 2010, 12:02am Report to Moderator
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***spoilers***

The review will make more sense if you read or listen to the script.

I really enjoyed this script up until "Logan" appears (page 12).  Jeff should seriously try his hand at writing RomCom, because the first 11 pages of this script were beautiful.  The RomCom setup was great.  I totally fell in love with Tyler.  The entire tailgating sequence was delightful.   I wanted Tyler and Emma to run away and live happily ever after.  

And then I hit page 12.  From page 12 to page 17 I was saying to myself, "I can not post this to the main page of the site."  It seriously bothered me.

Gut reaction - too graphic.  
Gut reaction - you could have done something Hitchcock-ian to convey the horror and the true nature of Logan without being as graphic as what I read.

Act III is what changed my mind about posting this. Still, very graphic, but at least Logan got what he deserved.

Nit picks.  

Seriously, do they spell 'brauts' as 'brats' in 'Sconsin?  

Bottom page 12, "Tyler squints his eyes, cocks his head sideways." should be "Logan squints..."

Issues for which I don't have a good solution.  I think that you should have referred to Logan as Tyler (nice nod to "Fight Club" btw) from the beginning.  Initially it confused me (until page 12).  

Nods:

Tanis was good.  Nice foreshadowing with "Murder...it be more common with cooks
than any other job."  It made me 'keep my eye' on Logan for the first few pages.  

Nice bookend at the end with the heart and key.

Don



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Revision History (1 edits)
Don  -  January 15th, 2010, 12:11am
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screenrider
Posted: January 15th, 2010, 12:38am Report to Moderator
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Okay...

I just read this, and yet another macabre masterpiece.  Although I'm sure you'd get a lot of flack from the big wigs over so much blood, guts and boobs if this were ever to be produced into an actual film.   I'm sure they'd make you tone it down.  And while I'm on the subject how come none of these Soulshadows have gotten produced?  They're top notch horror and that's hot item in the market right now.  Are they being shopped around to Literary Agents?  

I have no other comments other than saying, "My Soul Take" was my all-time favorite episode.

Good job, Dreamscale.
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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 15th, 2010, 12:54am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Don
***spoilers***

The review will make more sense if you read or listen to the script.

I really enjoyed this script up until "Logan" appears (page 12).  Jeff should seriously try his hand at writing RomCom, because the first 11 pages of this script were beautiful.  The RomCom setup was great.  I totally fell in love with Tyler.  The entire tailgating sequence was delightful.   I wanted Tyler and Emma to run away and live happily ever after.  

And then I hit page 12.  From page 12 to page 17 I was saying to myself, "I can not post this to the main page of the site."  It seriously bothered me.

Gut reaction - too graphic.  
Gut reaction - you could have done something Hitchcock-ian to convey the horror and the true nature of Logan without being as graphic as what I read.

Act III is what changed my mind about posting this. Still, very graphic, but at least Logan got what he deserved.

Nit picks.  

Seriously, do they spell 'brauts' as 'brats' in 'Sconsin?  

Bottom page 12, "Tyler squints his eyes, cocks his head sideways." should be "Logan squints..."

Issues for which I don't have a good solution.  I think that you should have referred to Logan as Tyler (nice nod to "Fight Club" btw) from the beginning.  Initially it confused me (until page 12).  

Nods:

Tanis was good.  Nice foreshadowing with "Murder...it be more common with cooks
than any other job."  It made me 'keep my eye' on Logan for the first few pages.  

Nice bookend at the end with the heart and key.

Don



I haven't read this script, but seriously!!!!

Someone named Logan is in it?!!!

Is this a coincidence?!!!

I think not.

My Logan is probably different than the one you had written, but what if it's not????

Holy Macro!!! This is cool!!!

I'm running out of time. Trying to pump out a short and I'm not as skilled as you people, but I'd like to do this and push myself to the "ends" before I cook the turkey.

YES!!! The darn turkey is on my priority list along with a nice gravy and a fried rice OK?

Please don't give me a hard time for that... even though the fried rice isn't that low on calories.

Jeff,

If I don't get to your script until I get back, just know that I'm thinking of you.

You have a special place in my heart. God only knows why, but you do.

Luvya,

Sandra




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James McClung
Posted: January 15th, 2010, 12:56am Report to Moderator
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Yo Jeff. How's it going?

I'll get the negative out of the way first. The dialogue was solid throughout, naturally as I've been taking some pointers from you as of late, but I thought Logan's schtick was cheesy as fuck. I'm surprised Emma didn't think he was a total creeper. Kudos on having a character who put it out there for me to identify with, even though she was gone in no time.

Secondly, I don't tend to take issue with supernatural elements being mixed with more mundane horror, I didn't see the point in making Maia whatever kind of creature she is. I guess you needed her to be superhuman to take care of Logan but she doesn't do anything else out of the ordinary. In the end, it feels like Logan was merely bested by a tough chick with weird teeth.

My third issue, I'll let you off the hook for as you were covered by Bert's Tanis bookends but I was really expecting a heart to show up in the story.

That said, I liked this one. The dialogue was excellent and the whole 'Sconsin angle brought a sense of realism to it. Logan is a textbook loonie but he felt like he had his own personality what with how much detail you gave to his M.O. I liked the duality of the two incidents. The repeated dialogue really came off as creepy and I liked how it was obvious Maia was a chick who was on the ball. I think that would've been apparent even without your logline. The gore was of my favorite variety. Sick and brutal. Not played for laughs. In particular, being a disgustingly huge fan of Takashi Miike's Ichi the Killer, a Glasgow smile is always appreciated.

Good job, dude!

BTW, Bert. While I love your intros, I just couldn't for the life of me picture this evil little girl in a chef's hat, despite your note about the silliness. It felt very Freddy Krueger/Cryptkeeper-esque which I'm not sure quite fits. I appreciate the thought though and I still loved her glee in tending to the roasting heart. Fun stuff!


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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 15th, 2010, 1:01am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Don
***spoilers***

I really enjoyed this script up until "Logan" appears (page 12).  

Don



How strange. That's what Michael said in Thief!  

I don't know what page it was, but it seems such a funny coincidence!!!



Jeff, you probably don't even have a clue the problems Logan has caused!!!

Maybe it's not my fault afterall, but I've been channeling some of your energy....

Sandra  




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stevie
Posted: January 15th, 2010, 1:35am Report to Moderator
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Hi Jeff. Buddy, I know how much you've been waiting for this to be posted! Good job.

This was vintage Bush material! i knew it was gonna be full on but it exceeded my thoughts beforehand. I ain't really into the slasher/torture type stuff but this was ok. I read American Pyscho years ago, and there were shades of Bateman in Logan(or Tyler? It should've been one or the other, if I may say so).

Your depiction of pre NFL game parties was great, it really seemed like we were there.

Now, my major concern with it: I didn't find it feasible at all, that a chick would just take off by herself with some stranger! Absolutely not believable! When they were driving up to Door county, we knew something nasty was gonna happen.
I seriously think you should change it so Emma doesn't just run off blindly with a strange man, STRAIGHT AWAY! It doesn't sit well with me. Especially when its mentioned that 2 girls have disappeared from previous Pack games.

Anyway, bro', that was my only quibble. Your format and actual writing were top form as always.
Oh, and bert did well with Tanis. He usually does, but this one set it up nicely.
Cheers  stevie.




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ghost and_ghostie gal
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Quoted from bert
I know there are a ton of you out there that owe Jeff the courtesy of a read.


Not me.  He already owe's me one and after this, that will make two.  Not that I'm keeping track or anything.  "KIDDING."  You owe me no reads, I would have read this anyway.

Dreamscale...

Well, no surprises here, this was pretty predictable from start to finish.  The only thing I was trying to figure out which one, Alyssa, Madison or in this case Emma.  Yes, you did have a few cheesy lines up in this one.  Of course your logline pretty much gave things away IMO.  I don't know, maybe that's how it works in the Soulshadow series and all.

Good descriptions in the killings.  Graphic too.  But you being an expert on horror from what I hear, wouldn't expect nothing less.  The others before me, have made some good points.

She takes off her jersey revealing the most perfect set of breasts.  Did you really need this passage... "Any man has ever laid eyes on."   But this is just ghost.

Anyway can't fault your writing, it was pretty good as usual.  But this wasn't too scary in all IMO.

Bert, good job with Tanis as usual.

Very enjoyable read and fast.  Just another good episode in the series.

Good stuff

Ghostwriter


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sniper
Posted: January 15th, 2010, 8:06am Report to Moderator
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Hey Jeff,

I hope everything is cool at your end, buddy.

I’ve been looking forward to this one since you told me about it a few months back. My gut feeling? Hmm, not sure what to say. Don’t get me wrong, it’s well written for the most part but I just can’t get into this torture porn genre, it does nothing for me, probably because it’s not scary – at least, not to me. I might have been impressed by it if you had gone for something new but, let’s face it, this is pretty standard stuff. I’m actually somewhat surprised that Don initially had a problem with posting this one on the main page, I mean, there are hundreds of scripts like this one (or even gorier) on the site. Might have been a Soul Shadow concern though.

Like I said, the writing was good throughout (minus a couple of cheesy lines – I seriously doubt any girl would do anything but laugh at his “key to my heart” routine) but I think you spent too little time on Maia. From your logline I thought she would play a much more prominent role in the story, but she’s only, like, in 6 or 7 pages. I wasn’t crazy about how the pick up scenes repeated themselves – I know what you were going for here but it would have made it a more interesting read if his angle with Maia had been a different one than with Emma (and presumedly with Hannah and Kaylee).

I think it was Stevie who mentioned that it didn’t seem believable that Emma would go off with Tyler/Logan that quick and I agree. I could have bought it if she had been more wasted but she didn’t really seem that drunk.

Another thing that bothered me was the fact that both Alyssa and Madison know what Tyler/Logan looks like, they know where he was taking Emma – and still he carries on with the same routine. I’m pretty sure the cops would’ve asked the girls who Emma was last seen with and where they were going (they even saw his car – as did the old guy at the gas station presumedly). You would think the cops would’ve come knocking by now. It’s small stuff but it hurts the overall impression.

Same thing could be said by the glue to the hair thing and the small incision at the hairline. Sorry, bro, but I can’t buy that one either. I seriously doubt that anyone could rip their own scalp off unless the incision was GIGANTIC. Obviously I would hurt like a bitch if you pulled your head forward in such a situation but you would either pull your hair out (probably at the roots) or snap it.

Things got more interesting when you finally brougth Maia into the mix. Alas it didn’t last very long because from there on, at least for me, it turned into a variant of those God awful hitmen scripts, you know, where we got one really cool, smart talking dude/gal who’s constantly on top of the shit. Maia felt a bit like that. That being said, I liked the protector-angle though. I’m not sure what exactly a “protector” is or who it’s working for but it seemed a pretty cool creation.

One thing you might wanna work in there is a couple of speed bumps along the way. Both Logan’s killing of Emma and Maia’s killing of Logan happen rather smoothly. There are no setbacks – it’s all just too easy. Emma doesn’t get away at one point, only to be chased down just as she’s about to make it. Maia doesn’t really get much resistance from Logan – again, too easy. And in the end, boring. Crisis is king.

The dialogue (except for the “key to my heart” thing) worked really well but there’s sure a lot of it. I really hate when killers go into these monologues when they’re about to slay a new victim. Just saying.

I also think, in terms of character names,  that you should stick with Tyler (when he’s Tyler) and Logan (when he’s Logan). Had this been a movie, then the audience wouldn’t know his name was Logan when he presents himself as Tyler.

I’m sorry that I don’t have that much positive to say about this one, bro, but the story just ain’t my thing.

Cheers
Rob


Down in the hole / Jesus tries to crack a smile / Beneath another shovel load
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Dreamscale
Posted: January 15th, 2010, 11:23am Report to Moderator
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Hey everyone, thanks so much for the reads and feedback.  Big THANKS to Don for getting this recorded and posted so fast, as well as some rare feedback.

My computer crashed Tuesday night, and I'm being told that my hard drive is shot, meaning everything on my computer is gone for good.  I'm devastated.  I'm accessing the internet through my PS3...good thing I got a nice wireless keyboard for Christmas for it.  It's still tough to do normal stuff though.  I'm going to hold out with formal responses until I'm back up and running with an actual computer, but I will say a few things...

I was a bit worried about this one myself in terms of it being too graphic...or maybe troubling for some, when I was concieving it.  I think there are a number of things in here that do push the envelope, but most of you know that I enjoy pushing it, whenever possible.  Thanks again to Don for posting this, even though he was troubled by it...that was indeed my goal here.

It's funny that many mentioned the "cheesy" dialogue, cause it's also mentioned at least 3 times in the script itself.  Obviously, it is intentional, and is meant as a running gag of sorts.

A few of you also said that you don't find it remotely believable that Emma (or anyone) would take off with a complete stranger, the way she did.  I think you'd actually be quite surprised what people would (will) do when the situation seems right.  I can tell you from personal experience that I've been on both ends of doing things that probably weren't the best idea (both ends, meaning I've doen the foolish stuff, and I've had girls do foolish stuff with me).  When alcohol is invovlved, anything goes...and I mean anything!

Finally, a BIG THANKS to Bert who did another great job with Tanis, and Michael Cornetto for doing the title page!  Great work, guys!

I'll get back top each post personally when I'm back with a new computer (hopefully before the weekend is over)..

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stevie  -  January 17th, 2010, 3:19pm
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Mr.Ripley
Posted: January 15th, 2010, 1:27pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Jeff,

Interesting read. Like Rob, torture porn doesn't affect me as much. My problem is Logan and Emma's relationship. I liked the dialgoue and interaction but Emma seemed to go quickly with Logan. I know it's a short so you were limited in that sense but I think that it could be extended a bit more. As James pointed out, Maia, except for some freaky teeth, didn't present any weird qualities. I thought she'll turn into a creature. But I guess it's cool. Overall, good work.


Gabe


Just Murdered by Sean Elwood (Zombie Sean) and Gabriel Moronta (Mr. Ripley) - (Dark Comedy, Horror) All is fair in love and war. A hopeless romantic gay man resorts to bloodshed to win the coveted position of Bridesmaid. 99 pages.
https://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-comedy/m-1624410571/
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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 15th, 2010, 11:21pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


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Hello Jeff,

I think your writing is strong technically. Completely and absolutely. I think you can nail it. There's no doubt in my mind regarding that.

What I mean is that you're not long; you're not overly circuitous in what you set out to accomplish, you do the job and hey, the job 's gotta get done... but with all those strengths...

You are without anything that sets you apart.

It might be great and everything's cool, but if it were me, I'd be thinking: "I'm probably just stuck in a kind of rut." Reason being: If I saw myself writing this story, and I had your brains, I'd think I was coasting.

With complete honesty I can say you get a "ten" on the technical scale, but a "zero" on the creativity scale.

This script feels completely canned. Processed to the point where it's not even Cheese Whiz anymore.

An important thing to note as a problem is the tone:

You have not stayed true to the tone of the Soulshadows anthology.

I have not yet read "Please Remain Calm" type of material in Soulshadows series, but PRC is where this could work extremely well.

My feeling on this is:

A solid writer--

Who needs to find his heart.

Sandra



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Grandma Bear
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Great for you that Don decided to chime in. I was surprised about the nonsense with the gore. Although that does explain why so many who read my 7wc script decided not to comment. Anyway, as far as gore goes, you know you're safe with me. I won't be offended or disgusted.

I also feel those who said it was nothing new and blah blah might just be extra hard on you, because you can be hard in reviews of other people's scripts. I still think you're one of the most thoghrough reviewers here so I give you some room to be less than brilliant. If you were Balt, you'd deserve all kinds of shit.

My biggest issue with this script was the believability of the women. Sorry I can't remember their names. I read this last night. I noticed that you said we'd be surprised how many women and "you" do dumb shit and go with strangers...I would agree with that except for a few things. When a guy brags how rich he or as in this case his parents are, but then mentions his dad is an ex cop... RED FLAG moment. This is when you tell the guy to keep walking... if you know what I mean. In other words, it's not that she goes with him that is disturbing, but rather him revealing things about himself that just sends up red flags.

In regards to the gore and Maia, I think that was fine. What brought it down was your lack of giving us some believable explanation to what turned him this way or why he's doing this.  We need something more in order to connect with him and the victims and of course Maia.

It wasn't bad Jeff. We just need better motivations and characterizations. The gore was fine...

Take care.

Pia


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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 16th, 2010, 11:38pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


What if the Hokey Pokey, IS what it's all about?

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Quoted from Grandma Bear


I also feel those who said it was nothing new and blah blah might just be extra hard on you, because you can be hard in reviews of other people's scripts. I still think you're one of the most thoghrough reviewers here so I give you some room to be less than brilliant. If you were Balt, you'd deserve all kinds of shit.

Pia


I'm the reviewer who said that "there was nothing new and blah blah".


If you were Balt, you'd deserve all kinds of shit.


This is unfair.

Balt is not here.

Balt is a young father.

It's not right to attack someone who has not even been around. He could be dead for all we know.

Stabbed from behind.

*

I also feel those who said it was nothing new and blah blah might just be extra hard on you, because you can be hard in reviews of other people's scripts.

*

My review of Jeff's script began with compliments of his excellent technical skills. There is nothing hard about that.

I sincerely believe that there is nothing new in his recent Soulshadows script. This is not a put down to his skills as a writer and I specifically expressed my high regard for his technical skills.

I'm not going to deliver "sweet candy" to Jeff because I know he wouldn't appreciate it.

Jeff expects honest and critical reviews and nothing less. This is what I've given him to the best of my ability.


Sandra





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Grandma Bear
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Sandra dear, it was not an attack on you. I just felt his script would be much better with some character development and some reasonable explaining why some characters do this and that. Gore IMO is not the problem, it's the lack of reason for it.

Now you go cook that turkey!!!  





PS. In regards to Balt...his absense is nothing new here and I believe he set himself up for criticism. I do  hear you though.


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Sandra Elstree.
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Of The Ancients


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Quoted from Grandma Bear
Sandra dear, it was not an attack on you. I just felt his script would be much better with some character development and some reasonable explaining why some characters do this and that. Gore IMO is not the problem, it's the lack of reason for it.

Now you go cook that turkey!!!  





PS. In regards to Balt...his absense is nothing new here and I believe he set himself up for criticism. I do  hear you though.




The gore wasn't the problem for me.

Here's the problem:

I'm noticing that there seem to exist two kinds of scripts:

1.

A script that is completely technically sound. It flows. It has story. Its copy is clean.

2.

A script that is very helter-skelter. The writer might not even know how to introduce a character or do a proper slug...

But nevertheless,

They just might have caught my eye and I know they're a damn good writer.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again.

There's a writer on here , (he's young and I won't say more) and he's absolutely fabulous. I could complain and write red marks all across the hard copy of his script, but it's completely real and alive and when I read it, I feel like I'm reading from his soul.

Like I said:

Two types of scripts.

If the writers on either end of this terrible scale can stick around long enough, then they will probably most certainly be successful.

I can honestly say that the problem with Jeff's script is not new.

In fact, many people complain about "Hollywood" for the reason that it is so formulaic.

Ironically, I do enjoy Hollywood films, but also, I do recognize the humdrum.

From a completely personal and subjective viewpoint:

I enjoy watching live performances.

I especially enjoy watching amateur performances.

And...

It's really cool to watch the buskers on the street!!!

The turkey is now cooked by the way.   I froze white meat and dark meat and the bones for making soup when we get back.

I've got a story about "turkey bones" that's really funny. My son is the protagonist, (or would it be antagonist?) in that story that is really funny. 2010 will be a good year for jokes. It was very funny and I'll try and set aside time for the telling.

Love,
Sandra



A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.
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Dreamscale
Posted: January 17th, 2010, 2:26pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Steven, thanks for the read and feedback.  Glad you liked it!

The horror element is not your typical horror, I guess.   As others have noted, I guess, this falls into what many call “torture porn”, but I’ve never really quite understood that.  Some like it, others don’t.

Thanks for the compliments on the smooth flow, quick feel, natural dialogue, well told action, and smooth transition.  I definitely tried and am very happy with the results.  Thanks again, as I know this isn’t your cup of tea.


Thanks Greg!  Appreciate the read and feedback. Not sure we’ve chatted before, but I owe you a read now…let me know what you’d like some feedback on, and I’m all over it.

I definitely like things extreme, and wanted to push the envelope here with this.  Glad it worked for you.

You’re right, it is supposed to be cheesy in many ways.  It’s actually brought up in the script numerous times and is a running gag.  I definitely wanted to tie things up and deliver a big payoff that hopefully wasn’t quite expected.  Glad Maia worked for you and delivered what you were after.

You’re correct about the security…2 girls had been abducted earlier, at the last 2 home games.  Here’s the deal…tailgating in Green Bay is a bit different than most cities.  There are numerous different areas where people gather to party, as well as at just about every single home front yard within walking distance.  Same with all the restaurants and bars in the area…it’s not like you drive into the stadium parking lot, and that’s where it all goes down.  There is always police presence, but there’re just so many possibilities.  The first 2 abductions left no witnesses or clues at all.  I actually had some dialogue lines making this clear earlier, but pulled them out of the final draft.  One correction I will make is to change Logan’s car when he meets Maia.  Since he’s using a fake name and everyone is drinking heavily, Madison’s and Alyssa’s description will be pretty useless (everyone wears jerseys, and most pretty much look alike).  Also, no bodies have turned up, and really no signs of foul play even.  One more interesting thing that most probably didn’t get is that Logan borrows a cell phone from a random person to make calls to his victims, so he’s clean and clear as far as that goes.  Cell records would point to several other people, so police would be pretty much clueless.

Glad you enjoyed it, Greg.  Thanks again!


Thanks so much for reading and posting feedback, Don.  Totally appreciate it, as I know you don’t post very often.

Funny, Don, as I’m actually going to be writing a RomCom as 1 of my next features, based on an idea I came up with about 9 months ago…we’ll see how it turns out, as horror is definitely my genre of choice.  Glad you liked Tyler and Emma…I sure tried to give them some personality, and likability.

I definitely hear you about how things took a drastic turn on page 12.  I think it’s kind of my style to have a sudden shock around the midway point.  I know there are some shocking, brutal, and disturbing imagery.  Totally what I was after.  I asked Bert immediately if he thought it was “too much”.  I was definitely worried what people would think.  Glad the final act worked enough for you to post this.  I would have been crushed if you deemed it “unpostable”.

Yes, that’s how they spell it…”brats”.  Check out your local grocery store.

Damn, can’t believe I missed that dialogue heading!  Great catch.  I’ll get it changed.

I wondered if people would be confused with Logan calling himself “Tyler”.  I asked Bert what he thought, and he thought it was understandable.  I actually like it the way it is, as well, but I hear ya for sure.

Thanks again, Don!
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Dreamscale
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Thanks for checking this out, Screenrider!  Glad you liked it.

Some flicks are known for their high blood, guts, and boobs quotient.  Some writers and directors are also known for it.  I certainly don’t like pulling any punches, and hopefully, never will.  There are numerous examples of disturbing, graphically violent films and shorts (Masters of Horror, for instance – 1 Director’s episode was deemed too graphic, and wasn’t shown on cable, but did make the DVD).

Not sure if anyone is trying to move these Soul Shadows along.  You never know, I guess.

Thanks again!


Hey James, thanks for the read and feedback.

Might as well start with the negative, bud…let’s get it out of the way.  Yes, the dialogue and “shtick” was purposely cheesy.  It’s actually said numerous times in the actual script and is a running gag, of sorts.  I don’t think Logan came off as creepy or even weird.  He was nice, polite, and appeared to be a good guy.

Yeah, I wanted to make Maia “different”, and have supernatural powers, so she could take Logan out.  Maia is a “Protector” as she says...a “good” demon, who takes out assholes and creeps like Logan.  She only shows her powers when she needs to, thus playing along with Logan and making him think she’s just another victim.

Nope, no heart here, other than when Maia stabs his key into his actual heart.  The key was the item, not the heart, but I hear what you’re saying.

Cool, glad you liked it!  Glad the dialogue worked for you and it came of as real…I definitely tried to throw as much in as I could to make it have a realistic feel to it.  I definitely wanted the violence to play out realistically, and as brutally as possible.  All played straight up for sure.  No laughs here, when it comes to violence.  HaHa…a Glasgow smile…LOVE it!!!!

Thanks again, James!


Yo, Stevie!  Thanks for the feedback.  Always appreciated.

I know you’re not a big horror/slasher type guy.  Yes, there were shades of Bateman in Logan for sure.  Twisted fuck all the way around.

I wanted to bring in some realism, and I thought a football game was a good way to do it.  All the games and times, and even weather is exact.

I hear what you’re saying about the feasibility factor, but I know for a fact that shit like this can and does happen…on a much more frequent basis than you may believe.  Tyler came of as nice guy and the situation just seemed “right”…so Em went for it…bad choice for sure, but it does happen.  Especially when loads of alcohol are involved.

Glad it worked for you overall.  Thanks again!


Hey Ghost, thanks for giving it a look.  Do I owe you some reads?  Just let me know, bud…I’m on it.

I really wasn’t trying to reinvent the wheel with this or even mask what this was.  The logline was supposed to let you know what was going to go down, but I did want to throw in some nasty twists and turns and make it come of a bit differently than you expected or are familiar with.

Yeah, as I’ve said a few times, the cheese was intentional.

The angle I was after was to be as brutal and graphic as possible, without crossing the line into ridiculousness.  It’s all played straight up and that’s supposed to add to the disturbing factor.

Ha…I actually love that line!  Is it necessary?  Definitely not, but it’s just a few extra words, when it all is said and done.

The scary factor is that it plays for real…and could actually happen.  Logan’s insanity level as well as the “unique” brutality is where the “scares” are supposed to be, but I totally understand how many don’t see this genre as being scary.

Thanks again, Ghost!


Hey Gabe, thanks for the read.  I hear ya about not being into this genre.  I actually didn’t want to go into anymore detail with Logan and Emma, even if I had more room, page-wise.  As I’ve said before, IMO, stuff like this does happen quite frequently, and people often fall for lines from others.  Obviously, time passes between when they’re eating brats by the car and when they start making out at Kroll’s.  Based on Em’s dialogue, they seem to share a lot in common and she’s smitten by him.  Too bad for her.

Maia’s qualities did present themselves, actually.  She pulled free of both cuffs, easily smashed Logan into a wall with 1 hand, pulled her head free, with no ill effects, and broke Logan’s wrist with a single powerful thrust of her hand.  She has incredible powers that she uses as she needs.  I didn’t want her to go to far over the top, so I only hinted at her teeth, mouth, and tongue.  In a filmed version, once she outs herself, it would be very obvious she’s far from human.

Thanks again!

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stevie  -  January 22nd, 2010, 11:10pm
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Dreamscale
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Hey Rob, thanks for reading and your feedback.

Sorry this didn’t do it for you.  I know you are not alone in not liking the torture porn genre.  As I said earlier, I think this genre being scary, depends on how you look at it.  If it just doesn’t work for you, I can see it not being scary.  I guess “scary” wasn’t really what I was after.  I wanted to highlight the brutality and graphicness of the horrendous acts of violence that mankind is capable of.

In terms of this being “pretty standard stuff”, I have to disagree.  Sure, it is what it is, and it follows numerous standard plotlines, but I tried to differentiate it by the details, and the way it played out, as well as the general tone, which again was all straight up, for reals.

I think the same goes for why this is very troubling for some.  The violence is graphic, brutal, and all played straight up.  The way Logan talks with Emma is troubling in itself, I think.  The stuff about the breasts and the way he cuts them off (all OS) is something I’m not familiar with, personally, as well as the glue and scalping (which we’ll get to in more detail below).  You know, it’s one thing to write gross, graphic violence. I tried to take it to the next level, and make it all the more troubling because of it.  Guess it didn’t work on you, my friend.

Logan’s shtick was what it was…and it worked for him.  Chicks like him, and you know there are lots of guys out there like that.  You may find it unbelievable, but I can honestly tell you it happens all the time with much more cheesy lines. Sometimes, cheesy lines are supposed to be cheesy and they actually work because of that.  Sometimes, guys play the innocent act and it also works when it’s pulled off properly.  IMO, it all plays out very realistically, but I understand where you’re coming from.  Maybe, it’s simply a suspension of disbelief in scripts of this genre.

Maia came in late and I didn’t want to go into anymore detail about who or what she was.  Wanted to leave it up to the readers to decide for themselves exactly what the deal was.

I agree that people will either like or dislike the duality of the pickup scenes.  There are subtle differences, but I really like how it reads, and how it would play out onscreen.

As I said earlier, in a rewrite, Logan will have a different car when he meets Maia.  Keep in mind, no bodies have been found, and really no foul play even, so it’s not like any cops would be able to track Logan down.

BTW, what old guy at a gas station are you referring to?  You mean the guy that Logan borrowed a cell from?  He’d never remember anything about it…everyone is drinking, partying, and everyone’s wearing Packers jerseys…they all sort of blend in, and there’s no reason that he’d think anything of it at the time.

The glue and self scalping is possible.  Again, it’s something that you just have to kind of suspend disbelief on.  If you watch a lot of horror movies, you’ll realize that just about everything that happens is unlikely or downright impossible.  As for the “tiny” incision, it may well be much bigger than “tiny”.  That’s just how Logan worded it.  Or, I could just take out the word “tiny”, and maybe that would work better for you and others.

I’m glad you liked Maia.  Not sure what you mean exactly about the “hitmen” scripts.  I played Maia as a smartass in a way, but only to give Logan exactly what he deserved.  The Protector angle is obviously not developed at all. Wanted each to read in what they wanted.  She’s definitely not human, though.  She works for herself and rights the evils that are brought upon innocent females.  Just wanted to change things up a bit and bring in an element of surprise.

Rob, we’ve had similar discussions before involving “speed bumps, ease of kills, and Crisis being King”. I don’t agree with this standard, and IMO, run of the mill, plotting.  Just about every movie of this sort has things working out the same way…escapes, running around, chases, etc.  Funny thing is that although the Protag seems to have a chance in this scenario, you know damn well what’s going to happen each and every time.  I like being different and I tend to stay away from the tried and true plot structure and plotting itself.

Glad you liked the dialogue for the most part.  You know I’m a talky script person for sure!  I can’t agree with you about the killer monologue here, though.  Keep in mind that all 3 victim kills occurred OS, meaning you don’t know when the kills actually took place.  Originally, there was much more on this, but the page length got way too long.  Logan’s aim wasn’t to simply abduct these girls and kill them immediately.  He wanted to “play” with them for as long as he could, as long as they played along as well.  Therefor, when Logan filled Em in on what was going down, he was merely giving her an opportunity for survival.  Actually, in an earlier draft, Em is still alive when Maia shows up, meaning she played along and stayed alive for 2 weeks.  In the end, it required too much in between games, and I decided to cut it and have her dead when Maia came to play.

You’re definitely correct, that in a filmed version, no one would know that Logan is actually Logan, telling people he’s Tyler.  I think on paper, it works this way, and being such a perfectionist, IMO, it only makes sense to use the character’s actual name in the dialogue boxes.  I hear ya here for sure, bud!

No problem about this not being your thing.  I’m always after people’s honest opinions, and yours always counts and means a lot to me.  Thanks, Rob!

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stevie  -  January 17th, 2010, 4:42pm
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Scar Tissue Films
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Hi Jeff,

The good:

Well written, well paced. The ending was very apt and worked well. Also liked the way he introduced the previous prisoners.

The bad:

1. Unbelievable mechanics between Logan and Emma. Just didn't buy it at all that she would go off with him so soon.

I noticed that you dealt with this point earlier with one of the classic excuses of the writer (this actually happened! or "this kind of thing happens all the time in real life").

The thing is real life doesn't come into it. It has to believable in your particular story, not in the multiple possibilities of real life. It has to be believable that this particular girl would just run off with this particular guy. It's an easy thing to rectify though. He needs to give her a reason to go with her that no-one else could. Doesn't have to be amazing, just a bit stronger than it is.

EDIT: Pia's advice on that is very good. Women understand women.


2. Too much of the story was revealed in dialogue. Cut down on the talking and give us some more action beats, particularly at the point Emma is in captivity. You have a slow build up in the first half, then all of a sudden everything happens at once when the actual story starts.

EDIT: I've just seen your response to a similar criticism from Rob. All I would say is, you don't fix what ain't broken. Some things are fairly standard because they are natural ways to build tension and elicit fear and anticipation in the audience. If you are going to not use them, they have to be replaced with something else, not simply ommitted. Otherwise you are throwing the baby out with the bath water so to speak. You are making it even more predictable, just a lot quicker and not allowing any time for us to even consider she may survive.

This is especially the case as you are so fond of the slow build. We basically just get a tiny portion of the story when it kicks in. There's absolutely no point in spending a lot of time with a character, just to dispense with their suffering at the end.  It lessens the emotional impact and so defeats the entire purpose of doing it.

3. The reveal of the Protector thing totally threw me out of the story. It just came out of nowhere and struck me as though you'd just thrown it in because you didn't know where to take the story. I'm sure that's not the case, but it really needs foreshadowing if you are going down that route. As it was it just seemed on the verge of laughable to me. Not least because the logic of it doesn't make a lot of sense. She's a supernatural creature who protects girls, but what about the rest of them? Where was she then?

I know you tried to cover that plot hole with dialogue, but it didn't really wash.

Overall, a bit of a mixed bag. Just a standard torture porn thing with mutilated titties and some gratuitous nudity and then a Deus Ex Machina ending but solidly written with a good "weight" to the story.

I have to say, if I saw it as a film, I'd feel a little cheated. No offence. There's no morality at work in here. The bad guy gets his desserts, but I don't know, it's cold and lifeless somehow, a very negative view of the world where violence and brutality is the only way to combat violence and brutality. I can see why you like Hostel so much and why Don was unsure about posting it. It's not the violence, it's the dirtiness of it. It's morbid and gratuitous and has no humanity.

I think there's a better story in there.

Either one that is more myseterious in tone and takes us on a few more twists and turns and foreshadows and adds to the supernatural thing at the end.

Or one that is more in keeping with the title and with the idea of opening his heart with the key. Perhaps if the demon woman at the end was an angel and killed him in a more beautiful, poetic manner it would ne more impacting. She kills him but "opens his heart" and releases him.

You'd need to set that up by having Logan mentioning something along the lines of the fact that he feels a genuine connection with Maia, changing the emphasis of thei conversation and having him revealing his true feelings for once.

I know for a fact that you won't like that. Ha ha.

Actually, thinking about it, the story just starts in the wrong place. It would be better if we saw him killing Emma at the start, then going to find his next victim, Maia. We should get to know Maia and get to like her (she can be feisty and hard to get like she is at the end, just not quite as in control just yet). Really play with our emotions, making us worry for this girl, develop the chemistry and stiffen the belief that she would go with him.  Then have the reveal and you get the delicious irony of the hunter becoming the hunted. That way you have the tension running all the way through the script and we are fearful for Maia.

Yeah, the middle of page 12 is your opening scene. Kill Emma off and then get cracking on Maia.

I know you really like the slow build ups, but it doesn't really work here or in short form at all IMO. You get in and get out.

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Scar Tissue Films  -  January 17th, 2010, 7:03pm
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Dreamscale
Posted: January 17th, 2010, 5:40pm Report to Moderator
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Sandra, Sandra, my dearest Sandra.  You know I love ya, babe!  I’ve got lots of issues with your words and feedback here, and I’ve struggled with how to respond, but in the end, you know I’ll be me, and let you know exactly how I feel.  Maybe that’s why I hold a special place in your heart.

First of all, thank you for reading and providing commentary.  I appreciate everyone’s feedback, good, bad, or indifferent.  I really do.

Thank you for the compliment on the technical aspects of my script and writing in general.  That’s always nice to hear.  I’ll take any and all “10’s” I can get!

From there, though, I’m quite surprised at the tone of your feedback.  It’s very mean hearted and as far as I can remember, by far the most uncomplimentary I’ve ever read from you, regarding any and all scripts you’ve ever commented on.

99% of your feedback on scripts is wildly complimentary.  I mean you gush and gush over anything and everything, throwing out compliments that are so far from warranted.  In a way, I always get a kick reading your feedback, as you come across as being a person that loves just about everything you lay your eyes on.  That’s all fine and cool, as some are less critical than others, and some are very easily pleased and entertained.  Obviously, this is not the case here.

I doubt anyone wants to hear a line like, “You are without anything that sets you apart.”.  I find this remark to be completely uncalled for, whether or not you hate the script or think it’s a piece of shit.  It’s a very “Baltis-like” comment that seems very out of character from you.

It’s fine to make assumptions or read things into one’s writing, but I can guarantee you that I’m not stuck in any (writing) ruts nor coasting.

Giving me a “zero” on a creativity scale is also quite troubling.  It may not be your cup of tea, and you probably found it disturbing, and/or even sexist or just downright degrading to women, but a ZERO?  C’mon now.  That’s just not nice, Sandra.  You want to see some Zero’s on the creative scale, I can point out numerous scripts and movies, but I take offense to this here, as I highly doubt you’ve read or seen anything quite like this, in terms of details and tone.

Another very mean spirited remark is, “This script feels completely canned. Processed to the point where it's not even Cheese Whiz anymore.”.  WTF?  What is so canned about this?  Why throw in the Cheese Wiz comment?  Just downright mean, IMO.

How have I deviated from the tone of the Soul Shadows anthology?  Have you read and commented on all of them so far?  I know I have, and I know each is unique in its tone and story.  It’s actually up to each writer to bring his/her own perspective on what it should be.  Who are you to tell me or anyone else what is correct or incorrect in terms of this?  I just don’ get it, and I’d love to hear you elaborate on this.

PRC has absolutely nothing to do with this.  In fact, PRC is supposed to be as light as possible in terms of onscreen horror and the like.  Again, no clue where this comparison is coming from…or why it’s here at all.

I know exactly where my heart is, Sandra.  I’m sure it’s not at all where yours is, but I’m OK with that.  Thanks for the solid writer compliment, again.

I’d love to hear more from you on this.  As I said, I truly appreciate any and all feedback and opinions.  Your tone here doesn’t seem to be that you’re giving me much feedback, but more like you’re telling me things you have absolutely no clue about.  Sorry to sound upset, but I am.  I find this commentary to be very mean spirited with very little actual feedback on the script and story itself.  Hope you understand where I’m coming from.
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Dreamscale
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Hey Pia, thanks for the read and feedback.  Always much appreciated from you.

In terms of the gore, most took place OS, and I think the extremeness of it was more in the tone and feel of it, which is what I was after.  Also, I think the fact that it was played straight up, made it seem more brutal…and real, maybe.  Much of the dialogue was quite extreme as well and was most likely stuff many aren’t used to seeing.  I was definitely going for a disturbing feel.

It’s cool if and when people are hard…as long as they’re honest and offer reasons for what they’re saying, I’m totally fine with it.  Any and all feedback is positive, IMO.  When people have a strong reaction to something, positive or negative, I feel like it’s a success for that reason alone.

A few have the same issue in terms of the believability of some actions from some of the characters.  I understand that.  I don’t agree with it, but I definitely understand it.  I think a good example of why I feel this is very believable is the true life story of Ted Bundy.  Bundy did this exact sort of thing time and time again.  He had something about him that made women feel at ease.  They trusted him and didn’t feel threatened.  Everyone is different and people make horrendous decisions all the time.  Also, again, I think people need a certain level of suspense of disbelief.

I don’t think Logan was bragging about his riches, and what he said about his Dad was a lie.  What he said about the boat was also a lie.  Pretty much everything he said was a lie, but IMO, it came off as believable.

I wasn’t after writing a script about the how’s and why’s of anything.  I like leaving those things to the readers imagination.  Maia is the same deal.  No explanation other than what is revealed.  Who is she?  What is she?  Why is she doing this?  I don’t think it matters in terms of what this script is, and I purposely had no intention of providing anymore information on it.

Thanks again, Pia.  I really appreciate it. Pia.
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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 17th, 2010, 6:18pm Report to Moderator
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What if the Hokey Pokey, IS what it's all about?

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Quoted from Dreamscale


PRC has absolutely nothing to do with this.  In fact, PRC is supposed to be as light as possible in terms of onscreen horror and the like.  Again, no clue where this comparison is coming from…or why it’s here at all.


You're absolutely correct. I realized after the fact, thinking, PRC is meant to work on the psychological aspects and not be graphic.

I didn't get the chance to edit it because I've been hell bent on getting a Magic of Letters script up as a personal OWC I had with myself.

You can beat me up with it soon.  

I surely may have been hard on you, Jeff. I thought it would do you some good to hear how I felt and how I felt was that this was purely using things I've seen before, (and I haven't seen that much), but my instincts tell me that your work feels like it's overly dependent on the gore, but I felt it just turned into a big gore fest.

You know, in much the same way, I think that Thief, as has been commented on, turned into too much of a "shit show". I'm wondering if when we get too controlled by one aspect, we screw ourselves around royally. We can probably find these instances in countless scripts.

We need to balance the pace of so many aspects and that's why it's pure Hell to get it right.

In this case however, I think you have to keep in mind that I'm very desensitized to pure violence. I don't know why that is, but to me it's just a cheap device we. Not just you, but me too, use without really knowing why.

Remember Jeff, I still think of Fade To White and this felt like a really good show to me.

I felt you had the images and that BBQ in the beginning. I felt like you were completely inside of that script, but this one, not so much at all.

That's why I wrote that I felt it was all mechanics and processed like Cheese Whiz. It might have a lot of flavor and a whole young generation of horror fans might love it, but for me, I didn't feel it.

When I get back from the trip, I'll try and look closely to see where I feel the script falls down.

It has to do with the story though. Somehow it has to do with when we break into the whole torture thing.

What I'll try and do too, is find some examples of what I feel good about in this script.

There's always good. And I want to sincerely apologize if I had to be a heavy, but I was speaking my honest feelings about what I had read.

There's no taking it back now, and you know, I don't think it would be right to do so.

Sandra










A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.
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Quoted from Dreamscale


A few have the same issue in terms of the believability of some actions from some of the characters.  I understand that.  I don�t agree with it, but I definitely understand it.  I think a good example of why I feel this is very believable is the true life story of Ted Bundy.  Bundy did this exact sort of thing time and time again.  He had something about him that made women feel at ease.  They trusted him and didn�t feel threatened.  Everyone is different and people make horrendous decisions all the time.  Also, again, I think people need a certain level of suspense of disbelief.

.


Honestly, I can't tell you how many times Producers get upset at this kind of thinking. Execs who give seminars on writing and such always bring this point up. Drama is not real life. You set the rules yourself in your script, it's not judged by peoples experience of their life or what is possible in the Universe, but by the logic and believability of your script and the evidence that you present us with.

You go into the cinema with fresh eyes. People can't bring knowledge of Ted Bundy to your script. Besides, how do you know what Ted said to those women? He might have used some of the best lines ever. Whatever Ted said may have been believable, it doesn't mean that the interaction in your writing is.

For the record Bundy had numerous tactics he used to gain trust. He feigned injuries like broken arms or legs. Or he would impersonate an authority figure like a Policeman. Hoist by your own petard, as the Bard said.

Your approach was to make us believe that he could make women essentially fall in love at first sight. A large mountain to climb, one that requires some fairly incredible and honest lines.

I think in some ways you've even tried to avoid being believable. You cut out a part of the conversation and jump from them meeting to being almost soulmates and try to deflect the cheesy key line by highlighting it yourself in dialogue. It's manipulative and lots of people won't buy it.

I'm not trying to be arsey or confrontational here by the way, just pointing out that scripts and films are about what the audience takes from it. Intentions and your own thinking don't really matter, the work is only what exists in the mind of others. There are no excuses in films. They are what they are. Anything that is intended to be in there and is intended to be understood by the audience needs to be spelled out.

If you want the majority to believe that Logan is so attractive in both looks and personality that he can get any girl to waltz off with him in an instant, you have to throw out the lines that prove it. Alternatively, you do a Bundy and cheat.  
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Grandma Bear
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Quoted from Dreamscale

A few have the same issue in terms of the believability of some actions from some of the characters.  I understand that.  I don’t agree with it, but I definitely understand it.  I think a good example of why I feel this is very believable is the true life story of Ted Bundy.  Bundy did this exact sort of thing time and time again.  He had something about him that made women feel at ease.  They trusted him and didn’t feel threatened.  Everyone is different and people make horrendous decisions all the time.  Also, again, I think people need a certain level of suspense of disbelief.


My issue with the believability is that he brags about yachts and stuff and then says my dad is an ex cop. How many ex cops live their lives as high flying millionaires? I personally think you need her to get interested in him as a person not as a rich son...
Seriously, it doesn't ring true at all. Make her go with him because of him. Not some "I'm rich and I know you gonna fall for it" device. I'm with decadence here.



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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 17th, 2010, 10:43pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Grandma Bear


My issue with the believability is that he brags about yachts and stuff and then says my dad is an ex cop. How many ex cops live their lives as high flying millionaires? I personally think you need her to get interested in him as a person not as a rich son...
Seriously, it doesn't ring true at all. Make her go with him because of him. Not some "I'm rich and I know you gonna fall for it" device. I'm with decadence here.



That missed me on the surface level.

Pushed forward now, I can see where you're coming from and this might be the reason I felt it was off, but I didn't have a clear understanding of why, except that I felt it was... I'm going to use the lame words: "Over the top" for lack of anything else  entering into the circuitry right now.

I don't even think the actions were over the top for the character doing the evil deeds, but I think that he came on too suddenly and the context wasn't built up firstly.

This might be the key to fixing this.

Regarding the complaints about the girl's intelligence-- that she would have obviously known a little more and her going along with the "I'm rich thing" seemed weak.

It's not necessarily so.

As long as Jeff paints the girl as gullible, it won't matter.

Again, it's a matter of context. We can write completely "wrong", but if "our wrong" is fitting naturally into "our universe" and it is compatible with it, then it will work.

There are many  women and men that can be led to believe almost anything. I don't think it means that they're stupid, but that they're without the experience that allows them to discern the situation.

It all boils down to how Jeff sees the character and how he wants to write her.

The bottom line is:

The construct of the world needs to ring true to the character--

Not our own perceived world as ringing true based against our own world.

In order for this switcheroo to take place,

The construct needs to be laid out in the beginning.

It's probably the mark of a very strong writer, where they create a context early on--

And hold it throughout.

If that happens, then we're always weighing the scales against "the writer's" perceptions as well as our own. They start mingling with us.

Sandra










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sniper
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Quoted from Dreamscale
Not sure what you mean exactly about the “hitmen” scripts.

Sorry, Jeff, I should have elaborated on this.

In the "Short" section there are dozens upon dozens of script where the antag is either a hitman or an assassin. The protag usually runs into the antag in some dark place - and always alone - and the antag proceeds to spout off some long and (supposedly) cool monologue before he kills the protag. Total BS.

Like I said, there's alot of these scripts in the "Short"-section and all of them - with a very few exceptions - suck because they are pointless storywise.

Now, my comment to you was only regarding that this was used as an element in your story - not in regards to the story as a whole.

Hope this makes sense.


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sniper
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A stupid question I'm sure but...what is PRC?

On another note, I agree with Dec about the Bundy-approach. From what I have read about them, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy and - to a different extent - Charles Manson, all had the ability to "talk the pants off their victims" so to speak or in Mason's case, "the pants off his followers". All of them were insane (clinically, not legally), yes, but none of the were stupid - far from it. Different serial killers use different approaches, Dahmer for example - who's an entirely different can of worms - did not had the charm or the verbal skills that Bundy, Gacy and Manson had.

My point is, if you intend to use Bundy as a template of sorts for Logan then you have to show that, both through his actions and his dialogue. I think you're pretty much there with the action but the dialogue needs more finesse to really hit it out of the park. What you have now is, in my opinion, too cheesy (whether intentional or not) for a victim to fall for it. Just saying, bro.


Down in the hole / Jesus tries to crack a smile / Beneath another shovel load

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Sandra Elstree.
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Quoted from sniper
A stupid question I'm sure but...what is PRC?



There are never any stupid questions.

PRC is a series that a few of us had written for. Info came over from Duane Craig over at Conflict Scripts.

The prime intent was to create some chilling scenarios, but not to use graphic violence.

By the way, Jeff,

My perception is off on the "spirit of Soulshadows". I can't shake the feeling I get where it's got a spooky vibe, but isn't heading too much into the grizzly mode.

I remember Michael Shelton's Ferris wheel script and that's the tone that I imagine when I think of the series now.

Anyways, Jeff, having read some more in this thread, I think that I've learned something  from you writing this script.

The mention of "hitmen scripts". I never heard that term before.

And I definitely feel that the key issue, though we know it's true, for all of us, although we forget it, is the suspension of disbelief.

Also, some kinds of things we read we don't really suspend disbelief, but we engage with it. Like some kinds of poetry.

Sandra






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Shelton
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Is it wrong that I took pleasure in all this stuff happeing to Packer fans?

I read the script, sat on it for a bit, then started reading through the comments, and I gotta be honest and say that this is a hard script for me to wrap my hand around.

On one hand, it works.  I enjoyed the story, and even though it toes the line of being a basic serial killer/abduction script, it kept my interest.

On the other hand, it doesn't seem like a Soulshadows script.  To me, and you mentioned it in one of your earlier posts, it's more of a Masters of Horror script.  It's got that goriness to it that's very common in their episodes.  I like what I've seen of that series, which is probably why I liked this as well.  It just seemed odd to remove the SS tag from my mind and look at it on its own.

The Tanis part came off the same way.  It just had that "gross" feel, which is fairly uncommon for her.  It did fit in with the tone of the script though, so kudos for that Bert.

I read this right after Jordan's, which has a fair amount of gore in it as well, but I think the main separation with that one was that the gore was based on something historical, and more emphasis was placed on the item (locket).  Here, the key was minimal.  Enough to qualify as the item, but could definitely benefit from being used just a little bit more.

Anyway, as a standalone script, I think you did a good job.

Regarding screenrider's production comment, I don't think anyone is pitching these anywhere.  Nevermind the fact that most of them would be damn expensive to produce.


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grademan
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Hey Jeff!

Well done. Gerat read. As always, I have a few comments:

I live just south of Green Bay and can attest to the accuracy of the location description in your script! Go Pack. The dialog was suitably cheesy for this cheesehead from Sconsin.

I liked the first half of the story and I liked the gory last half of the story -- I just wasn't sure they went together. If I read the first half I would not predict the last half. And vice versa.

That's not bad, just an observation. You're the writer, you take us where you want us to go. And boy, you took us there!

I am not sure that Emma needed two wingwoman on this.

Your transition between halves was neatly done with the WHAM of the lumber which was cool how you had it timed to occur at a page turn. Whether intentional or not it was very cool. More so because it interrupted the word stunning.

The intro of Maia was well done but too late in the story. Isn't there some rule or some warning about introducing a key figure in the third act of a story. It always comes off as deux et machina. Maybe a scene of her earlier in the story even if mysterious would help.

BTW, a story on Maia as the protector would be something to consider.

A solid entry in the Dreamscale portfolio.

Gary

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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 18th, 2010, 8:07pm Report to Moderator
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Jeff, (Is this your real name, Jeff? And did your mom ever call you Geoffry?)  

The Germanic meaning of Geoffrey is "God's Peace".

I know a different Geoffrey and he is such a funny character. Very different than you. He makes me laugh. So who knows, eh?

I'm bumping this because Jeff has a desire and is a compete person who is worthy of feedback.

Snow, Jeff. Keep thinking: Snow.

I will too, and if I ever am ever able to at least "cross country ski", then I will be fast to message it to you.

Sandra



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ReaperCreeper
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Hello Dreamscale. I read this last night.

I'm sorry man, but I just couldn't enjoy this.

I think the "torture porn" genre as it's so derogatorily called nowadays can be excellent if treaded with care (Martyrs is a good example) but this was not only sickening, even for me -- it was also a little bit boring. Been there, done that....so to speak. Don't call the cops on me!

My main problem with this is that, even with its content, it failed to disturb me. It was gross, sure, but not once was I disturbed. It truly felt more like a fetish video than a Horror. Hell, we don't even see Emma die.

The only visual which was mildly effective to me as I was reading were the woman's scalps.

I did make a few notes as I was reading, so as to help you improve on this on the areas that I feel need reworking a little bit.

- Characters: too stereotypically Wisconsin IMO. I've been living there for around seven months, and I haven't seen one cheese hat yet.

- Character interactions: Completely unrealistic. Not even the most naive woman would fall for Logan's crap. Not to the extent he pushed it, at least.

- Dialogue: Not bad, but it felt stilted on ocassions. Minor things. Overall, it was decent.

- Plot structure: Bad. Never introduce a character by the third act without some foreshadowing as to its appearance; especially in a Short piece [and when said character is a supernatural (?) entity of some sort]. It makes for unengaging reading. I am, of course, talking about Maia. There was no protagonist here we could root for, either. Emma dies too soon, Logan isn't interesting enough -- just a run-of-the-mill psychopath, and Maia is introduced too late.

-Horror factor: Not enough. You had some nice visuals, but like I said -- it feels more like a fetish video. I am not counting Logan's demise here, because it was a revenge kill. I'd say a 5/10.

I'm sorry for being negative. But you have helped me a lot in my writing with your honest reviews and comments time and time again, and I think you deserve equal treatment.

--Julio











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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: January 18th, 2010, 9:28pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from ReaperCreeper

I'm sorry for being negative. But you have helped me a lot in my writing with your honest reviews and comments time and time again, and I think you deserve equal treatment.

--Julio



I feel the same way.

I feel that you, Jeff, are a very special and intelligent person.

I keep coming back to this, and I don't know what it is, but I feel like giving you hell because I feel like I am connected with you and I need to give you as much hell as I give myself-- which is way too much.

Sucks to be me.

Anyways, just please take care of yourself these next few weeks.

I'm going to try and post regularly when we're on the cruise, but I have no idea what services will be available to us; so just know, that you're in my thoughts if some weird thing happens and I can't connect.

Seriously Jeff,

If I was hard, I know we need this. And for whatever... Just send it back to me.

Luvya,

Sandra  










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cloroxmartini
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As you know, I don’t like graphic, so for most of this I “covered my eyes.”

Here is a revenge tale that the only predictable part for me was that Logan was the killer. Just as soon as the serial killer was brought up, he’s the guy. The avenger was not so expected. The main thread was there all the way to the end, which was good, and I guess fits this “Twilight Zone” thing going on here.

But there is one huge problem for me, Emma was not alone. Emma had two friends who saw Logan. So just as soon as Logan showed back up to tailgate for his next catch, would not cops be there as well? I think that’s a hole big enough to drive a forty-five foot yacht through.

I thought you could make Emma the avenger. Make her and her friends just a bit off, like they are avenging angels or something. The serial killer talk could go on, maybe they discuss what they’d do if they ever met the guy, you know, in that macho girl kind of way. Each wants to go with Logan and maybe they cast lots in front of him to see who gets to play. Wouldn’t Logan think that was weird, but digs it anyway? When Logan’s revealed as the killer, we’ll say, “I knew it,” and then keep your twist.
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Sandra Elstree.
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Quoted from cloroxmartini
As you know, I don’t like graphic, so for most of this I “covered my eyes.”

Here is a revenge tale that the only predictable part for me was that Logan was the killer. Just as soon as the serial killer was brought up, he’s the guy. The avenger was not so expected. The main thread was there all the way to the end, which was good, and I guess fits this “Twilight Zone” thing going on here.

But there is one huge problem for me, Emma was not alone. Emma had two friends who saw Logan. So just as soon as Logan showed back up to tailgate for his next catch, would not cops be there as well? I think that’s a hole big enough to drive a forty-five foot yacht through.

I thought you could make Emma the avenger. Make her and her friends just a bit off, like they are avenging angels or something. The serial killer talk could go on, maybe they discuss what they’d do if they ever met the guy, you know, in that macho girl kind of way. Each wants to go with Logan and maybe they cast lots in front of him to see who gets to play. Wouldn’t Logan think that was weird, but digs it anyway? When Logan’s revealed as the killer, we’ll say, “I knew it,” and then keep your twist.


Maschlom ha?

Peace.

I wish I was this brilliant.

I need to take some time and study when I get back.

Ahava,

No really...

Ahava.

Sandra



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Zack
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Alright Jeff, sorry it took so long to get my review in. Here we go-

This is the first of the Soul Shadows scripts that I have read, so I hope I'm not missing any story or anything by not reading the others first.

I'm just gonna jot down notes as I read...

I HATE the title page. Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this(didn't check the others posts), but it is incredibly distracting. I know it's part of a series, but this isn't necessary. Not a good first impression...

On page 1 you use "We follow the sound...." That's the same as giving camera directions and that is a no-no.

I'm sorry, but every time Tanis talked I laughed. I just got done watching Star Wars: Episode 1, and Tanis reminds me of Jar Jar Binks. Ha ha.

Ooh, you score points with the Green Bay Packers reference. I'm a huge football fan, so that instantly caught my eye.

Not digging the dialog between the girls so far, man. It’s a little stiff and unnatural. It just doesn’t quite flow right.

I’m having trouble keeping up with who is who. All of these girls sound the same.

If a killer’s on the loose, shouldn’t security be tight? Why would the girls be joking about it? Just doesn’t seem right to me.

Oh God. All of my other complaints were minor compared to this one. When Logan tells Emma how much he’s “attracted to her”, I cringed. Terrible dialog there man. Ouch. I know you can do better than that.

I like the “cheesy” joke. That was actually kinda clever. Ha ha.

I can’t buy that Emma would fall for some random guy this fast. It’s just so unnatural and unrealistic.

The “cheesy” pun was funny the first time, it was painful the second time.

Quick question… if his name is Logan, why does he call himself Tyler? Just wondering.

You need to say that Kaylee is dead. Don’t want to confuse people into thinking that she might still be alive.

Bottom of page 12, you refer to Logan as Tyler in a description. I think this should be changed. Am I wrong?
I really like how Logan has Emma trapped. The “self scalping” threat is brilliant and pretty brutal.

I cringed again, but this time it was a good thing. The nipple biting scene would be hard to watch on film. Good job, man. You actually creeped me out a little.

So you’ve pulled a “Death Proof” on me, huh? Switching to a new cast of victims midway through the story. That’s cool. I like that. It helps build tension.

Oh no… not another damn “cheesy” joke. That’s awful, Jeff. Really, it is.

I really think you need to develop Maia’s character as much, if not more, as you did Emma’s. Actually, considering how poorly developed Emma was, you should go back and develop BOTH characters more. For what it’s worth, you actually did a pretty decent job with Logan.

Maia’s “abduction” is the exact same as Emma’s. I know that this shows that Logan has been doing this for awhile and that he has a pattern that he likes to follow, but it seriously lacks suspense. Switch it up some.

Gruesome shit at the end man, but you’re moving through the meat pf you story too fast. You are way to focused on Emma’s character, as her part lasts 17 pages, where as Maia’s lasts only 8 pages. You need to flip this. Have Maia let Logan fuck with her a bit. Let him think he is in control. As it is, it’s way to fast and unsatisfying.

Really liked the end with Tanis. That was pretty cool.

All finished. Overall I gotta say that I’m pretty disappointed, Jeff. I really wanted to like this and wanted to praise it, but I just feel that wouldn’t be fair. You deserve honesty. I like the concept behind this, but really feel like you need to do an overhaul for this thing to even start to reach its full potential. Sorry if this seems overly negative, I just know you can do so much better. Let me know if you ever do a heavy rewrite.

~Zack~
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Zack
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Just had a second look at my review and wow, that's kinda negative.

Thought I'd throw some positives your way.

Your format is great and you are really good with description. I could picture everything very well. You and I should collaborate on a horror piece sometime. We'd make a hell of a team.

I think your biggest flaws are your dialog and your characters. What I always do is speak the dialog out loud as I write it. You can normally tell if something won't work once you hear it out loud.

The three girls in the beginning could have been switched around in any order and it wouldn't have affected the story in any way. Maia was barely any different(until the end, of course). You did a decent job with Logan though. I don't really have any tips on how to improve your characters as I'm not to great at writing them either(which is why I mostly stick to slashers, stereo-types are accepted in those types of movies ).

One last thing... please note that I wasn't extra hard on you because of the nature of your reviews(I've read some where you really come down on the writer, although you are always fair). You always give me pretty good reviews and seem to like most of my stuff, so I'd have no reason to "get back at you" by giving you a hard, negative review. But like I said earlier... A negative-but-honest review is much better than a positive-but-false review.

~Zack~

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Sandra Elstree.
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Quoted from ReaperCreeper
Hello Dreamscale.

I'm sorry for being negative. But you have helped me a lot in my writing with your honest reviews and comments time and time again, and I think you deserve equal treatment.

--Julio



I feel the same way.

I feel that you, Jeff, are a very special and intelligent person.

I keep coming back to this, and I don't know what it is, but I feel like giving you hell because I feel like I am connected with you and I need to give you as much hell as I give myself-- which is way too much.

Sucks to be me-- and you.

Anyways, just please take care of yourself these next few weeks.

Bounce back and know we're together in this ship of ni- dreams.

I'm going to try and post regularly when we're on the cruise, but I have no idea what services will be available to us; so just know, that you're in my thoughts if some weird thing happens and I can't connect.

Sandra















[/quote]




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Shelton
Posted: January 18th, 2010, 11:12pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Sandra Elstree.


I feel the same way.

I feel that you, Jeff, are a very special and intelligent person.

I keep coming back to this, and I don't know what it is, but I feel like giving you hell because I feel like I am connected with you and I need to give you as much hell as I give myself-- which is way too much.

Sucks to be me-- and you.

Anyways, just please take care of yourself these next few weeks.

Bounce back and know we're together in this ship of ni- dreams.

I'm going to try and post regularly when we're on the cruise, but I have no idea what services will be available to us; so just know, that you're in my thoughts if some weird thing happens and I can't connect.

Sandra


Sandra,

Can you give the guy a chance to respond?  I think you've made your point here, and you're starting to drive it a little too far into the ground.



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mcornetto
Posted: January 18th, 2010, 11:29pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Zack

I HATE the title page. Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this(didn't check the others posts), but it is incredibly distracting. I know it's part of a series, but this isn't necessary. Not a good first impression...


If you had read any others in the series, you would notice they all have a title page - both series.  Right or wrong, it's a traditional sort of thing for the Soulshadows series.  I can't see how it could possibly be distracting once you page past it.  And you might think that I am defending it because I make the page - nup - wasn't even my idea.  I would rather not have to do the extra work but I think it creates a unity for the scripts in the series, identifying them immediately as a matched set.
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Grandma Bear
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My favorite is the one with the Goth Cheshire Cat!  


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I meant no offense, Cornetto. I just don't think it is necessary is all. The title page should simply state...

                          SOUL SHADOWS II
                                Presents
                           Key To My Heart

What if someone new to screenwriting comes across this script, or any of the others, and assumes that a title page must also act as a Cover Art for the script? That could start a bad and annoying trend. But hey, if it hasn't been a problem so far then I guess you guys are fine. It just bothered me.

~Zack~
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mcornetto
Posted: January 18th, 2010, 11:38pm Report to Moderator
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I understood what you meant and I didn't take any offence - I just explained to you why it is there.
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Trojan
Posted: January 20th, 2010, 11:37am Report to Moderator
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Hey Jeff, this is the first of the Soulshadows scripts I have read and horror is not really my genre so not sure how useful my review will be. I have browsed through a few of the other comments but not read them all so I hope I'm not repeating anything that's already been covered.

Style wise the formatting and everything was fine, very easy to read.

I don't know a great deal about the NFL but I've always assumed Packers fans to be probably the most diehard supporters in the league. But I was wondering what they were doing in the parking lot of a K-Mart...is this a ritual that happens before every home game or something?

I didn't have an issue with Logan calling himself Tyler, I figured he is just giving the girls a fake name. If anything though it gives away the fact that he is planning to harm them, but due to the genre and nature of the story I would have assumed that anyway. So I think it's fine the way it is.

Yeah the dialogue was cheesy in places but it fit in with the cheesehead theme and you mentioned it so it worked in that sense.

I also thought it was unlikely that Emma would head off with this guy that she just met, or more specifically, that her friends would let her go off with him. Girls always seem to be concerned about their friends' safety so it's not something that would likely happen. But horror films seem to be filled with people making dumb choices and putting themselves in dangerous situations, it is a staple of the genre. So I bought it simply because I expect characters to make bad decisions in these sort of stories.

On page 16, you have 'Let's let them puppies out...what'd ya say?' To me this reads as 'what did you say' and I think it should be 'what d'ya say'. And another instance of this again on page 24.

On page 17 Logan says 'you weren't kidding when you said we had alot in common...'. It should be 'a lot'.

I didn't have a problem with the graphic descriptions, if I was actually seeing it on screen though then it might be another matter.

Overall I thought the story was good and it was well written, and was a quick read. I would have liked to have some clue as to why Logan was the psychotic killer that he was and what his motivation was. Otherwise I think it all worked pretty well and I liked the way you used the key and the heart visually to tie everything together. Good job.

Cheers,
Tim.
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Andrew
Posted: January 22nd, 2010, 7:18pm Report to Moderator
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Mr. Bush, hope you are well.

This is the first SS script I have read, and it was down to the fact you are very active in supporting others, and it deserves quid pro quo.

The horror/college kid/beer drinking thing is all I've read from you, and it really seems to nip your writing growth in the bud. This script is fine per se, but it felt like I could see the equations as it developed (that is to say, hit certain checkpoints); for example, we have two girls talking beer (really? it's akin to two straight guys talking flower arrangement at the start of a script - and no, I'm not being provocative on gender roles here) and it just feels so 'frat'. As a reader, it's kinda obvious it's mindless chit-chat to segue us into something else, which is, of course, Logan's entry.

The girls being so on the nose with appreciation of Logan felt unnatural - flirting is more powerful in what's not being said, and what we have here comes across as desperation, but also a quick way to move along the story - the point, it's simply not organic. The belch felt like 'Wolf Creek' (I know a small gripe) inc. the chatty-chatty stuff and is what the real problem with the script is - a lack of originality. We also have the Billy from 'Scream' hair-brushing-back-thing/chat. Jeffrey, come on! Emma's attack was a carbon copy of one in 'Fade'! Now, that's all well and good if it's a light-hearted parody, but this is serious material and instead frames you as unimaginative, which I don't believe to be the case.

Emma and Logan on page 7 is too twee, and took me back to the same problem I had with your 'Fade' script. I wouldn't have such a problem with it if we had more foreshadowing of Emma being vulnerable and liable to such absurd 14-year-old dreams of romance. I'm not advocating paperthin characters in lieu of extra pages, but rather more focused writing. I know you're a huge fan of 'Hostel' and it comes across in your own writing, but the reason it soared is 'cos it was fresh, the violence was justifiable 'cos it tapped into the deeper psychology with the pay-to-kill vibe - it didn't feel reactive, which is why I believe the second one killed off the series. It's a bit like 'Captivity' where the 'torture' category now just feels crusty and stale.

The reaction to the gore I think was more down to the fact it's gratititous, and less the severity of it. There's no discernible reason for it. Logan kills, he has a split personality and the girls are merely vessels to this. Again, the scene with the decomposing bodies felt lifted from 'Wolf Creek', yet there, there was biting realism in the dialouge and a simply perfect portrayal of a psychotic 'outbacker' - it tapped into the backpacker murder thing, and all of those things gave the scene extra gravity; however, your version felt limp, IMHO.

The writing here is decent enough, but the story is the real weakness. Apologies for such a negative set of comments, Jeff, but this this felt like something off 'Tales from the Crypt' and it really sunk for me. Judging from your own reviews, I know you will take this in the spirit it's intended, and yet, it is those reviews which give me higher expectations of your work!

My number one recommendation is to get off this torture vibe and apply your own paint onto the canvas.

Andrew


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Dreamscale
Posted: January 22nd, 2010, 11:43pm Report to Moderator
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Sorry everyone...I've been out...no internet...no anything.  Hard times.  I'll get back to each and everyone, starting with Mr. Dec.  I'm back online, and I'm on it.

Thanks to everyone for their reads AND FEEDBACK!
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stebrown
Posted: January 24th, 2010, 10:30am Report to Moderator
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Hi Jeff, I've just finished your episode and overall, I thought you did a really good job with it. Writing, formatting etc were all spot on. A very quick, easy read.

****SPOILERS BELOW*********



The story itself was pretty predictable, in that Logan/Tyler was going to be the killer. The whole too good to be true angle and even making him a horror writer, y'know? I was even thinking that you were deliberately making it obvious so that you could have a twist and make it so someone else was the killer... maybe even Emma?

The fake name part confused me a little. I didn't actually notice as I read through that he said his name was Tyler under the character title of Logan. That would be cleared up if this was on screen though, so I don't have a big problem with it. It did harm the read for me though for two reasons. One, it kind of gives the game away even more than my above reasons. Two, it's a bit confusing for the reader. I don't see any problem with having Tyler as his character title until the reveal and then simply putting Tyler/Logan, or something like that. I'm sure there are plenty of scripts knocking about that have a similar shift.

The re-start reminded me of Death Proof. The structure of the whole script is quite similar to that film actually - which, for me, isn't a bad thing as I quite liked it. I liked the almost mocking nature of Maia that sort of foreshadowed the eventual turn the script took.

The end itself was a bit of a dissapointment for me. Can't say exactly why but I was just expecting something a bit more shocking or more of a twist.

All in all though, a fun, enjoyable script with loads of blood and stuff. Good stuff mate!

Ste


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Dreamscale
Posted: January 25th, 2010, 1:11pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Dec, thanks for the read and comments.  Sorry it took me so long to reply.

Thanks for the compliments.  Glad there were some things that worked for you.

Still very surprised about all the comments about people not believing Emma would go with Logan, etc.  Dec, I’m confused with you saying that it doesn’t make sense to “argue” the believability or reality of a script situation by pointing to real life examples.  I just don’t get this at all.  First of all, stuff happens in movies all the time that doesn’t, couldn’t, and wouldn’t happen in real life.  It’s a movie…we have to suspend our disbelief at the door and go with what we’re given.  Here, however, we’re dealing with stuff that does happen in real life…happens all the time, actually.  If that’s indeed the case, which it is, how can you say that’s a poor “excuse”?  What am I missing here?

Why is it difficult to believe that someone would be smitten by someone else very quickly and make a poor decision, based on alcohol and sex appeal?  Logan is very attractive, very smart, very manipulative, well spoken, well educated, and most importantly, knows how to play the game.  Emma is new to Wisconsin.  She wants to meet new people, make new friends.  Wisconsin is known for its friendly, laid back people.  Skonsinites are trustworthy folks for the most part.  They’re also a bit too trustworthy and naive.

I think my style involves a heavy dose of dialogue.  Guess it’s just how I am and how I like my movies.  I tend to like to write at least 2 different movies in each script.  When Emma is chained up, I wanted the dialogue to be the disturbing part.  I wanted to invoke some scares through what’s being said and how it’s being said.  I don’t know, maybe I’m just weird.

If you’re referring to standard plotlines and “crisis being King”, when you say don’t fix what ain’t broken, I guess it comes down to personal choice as to whether it needs fixing or not.  I don’t like standard, normal things. They’re too predictable, too cookie cutter.  I want to be different and I want what I write to be different.  IMO, it’s not that different, it’s just a different philosophy or mindset.  I didn’t try and just omit these tension builders, etc.  I just tried to do it a different way.  If it doesn’t work for you, based on that, then I understand.  I think it does work the way it is, and I don’t think it’s at all more predictable because of it.

Yes, you are correct…I love a slow build.  Not sure why you’re saying it’s so obvious that Emma is going to be killed.  In my original draft, she actually remains alive and is saved by Maia.  Original readers were happy she survived.  I didn’t like that.  I wanted this to be grim, dark, and mean spirited, thus, I killed Em off, but I did it O.S., meaning that you don’t know whether or not she made it until we get back to Logan’s basement.

Sorry Maia didn’t work for you.  I do not agree with having to foreshadow everything.  Maia could have just been another potential victim.  I wanted some revenge for what Logan has been doing, and I also wanted a supernatural element.  The original plot concept followed along exactly, except I wasn’t sure about how and why the final protag would survive and flip things.  I obviously wasn’t going for laughs here, Dec, so I guess it’s obvious this didn’t work for you at all.  Why do you have problems with the logic here?  Maia says to Logan that she doesn’t always make it on time, but God knows she sure tries.  Again, in an earlier draft, Maia did make it on time to save Emma.  In this final version, she didn’t.  Maia can’t save everyone, all the time.  She does what she can, when she can.  I really didn’t want to develop her anymore than I did.

I get that damn Deus Ex Machina thing thrown at me a lot.  I don’t agree with it, but maybe that’s just me.  It’s supposed to be dark, dirty, and cold.  That’s exactly what I was after.  I don’t think it goes so far as to not having any humanity.   There’s always more story everywhere, but this is the story I wanted to tell.  These are the scenes I wanted to show.

I wasn’t looking to be mysterious here.  I wasn’t implying that “key to my heart” had anything to do with opening his heart, or releasing him.  No angels in this tale and no beauty in death.  Death is ugly and I wanted to make it as ugly and disturbing as possible.  Obviously, this will not appeal to everyone (actually, it seems it’s not appealing to much of anyone!).

I can’t say I agree with opening this on page 12.  I really like the first 11 pages.  Again, it’s the story I was after here and my take on this genre.  

OK Dec, that about does it.  I appreciate your feedback very much.  I don’t mean to argue with you over any of this, as IMO, it’s all a matter of personal choice.  Some people love Hostel and think it’s ground breaking, while others literally hate it and think it’s a pile of shit.  To each is own when it all comes down.

Thanks again!!!
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Dreamscale
Posted: January 25th, 2010, 1:27pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Shelton!  Thanks for the read and feedback.

I’m surprised you say this doesn’t seem like a Soul Shadows script.  You’re not the first to say this.  I wanted to make it unique and definitely different than the other SS scripts.  AS far as I could tell, SS scripts really needed only 2 things…an object in Tannis’ possession that plays into the story, and a supernatural element.  I do see the Masters of Horror similarities for sure.

I definitely went for disturbing, graphic violence, and I wanted it to come across as different.  I realize the key didn’t come into play too much, but it was what Logan used to reel his victims in.  In earlier drafts, it played a bigger part, but I decided to cut those scenes out.

Glad you seemed to like it, and thanks for the time!


Hey Gary, thanks for your feedback.

Cool, glad you picked up on the accuracy of things.  I did a fair amount of research and my parents do live in Door County, also.

As is usually the case with my scripts, there is definitely at least 2 different stories going on.  Do they fit together?  IMO they do, but I can easily see where some may not agree.  Glad you didn’t predict the last half, as I wanted it to come as a shock or surprise when Maia reveals her true self.

I have a habit of introing characters in the latter stages of the script.  I’ve touched on the Deux Ex Machina thing already.

Thanks Gary!
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Scar Tissue Films
Posted: January 25th, 2010, 3:18pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Dreamscale
Hey Dec, thanks for the read and comments.  Sorry it took me so long to reply.

Thanks for the compliments.  Glad there were some things that worked for you.

Still very surprised about all the comments about people not believing Emma would go with Logan, etc.  Dec, I�m confused with you saying that it doesn�t make sense to �argue� the believability or reality of a script situation by pointing to real life examples.  I just don�t get this at all.  First of all, stuff happens in movies all the time that doesn�t, couldn�t, and wouldn�t happen in real life.  It�s a movie�we have to suspend our disbelief at the door and go with what we�re given.  Here, however, we�re dealing with stuff that does happen in real life�happens all the time, actually.  If that�s indeed the case, which it is, how can you say that�s a poor �excuse�?  What am I missing here?

Why is it difficult to believe that someone would be smitten by someone else very quickly and make a poor decision, based on alcohol and sex appeal?  Logan is very attractive, very smart, very manipulative, well spoken, well educated, and most importantly, knows how to play the game.  Emma is new to Wisconsin.  She wants to meet new people, make new friends.  Wisconsin is known for its friendly, laid back people.  Skonsinites are trustworthy folks for the most part.  They�re also a bit too trustworthy and naive.


I think my style involves a heavy dose of dialogue.  Guess it�s just how I am and how I like my movies.  I tend to like to write at least 2 different movies in each script.  When Emma is chained up, I wanted the dialogue to be the disturbing part.  I wanted to invoke some scares through what�s being said and how it�s being said.  I don�t know, maybe I�m just weird.

If you�re referring to standard plotlines and �crisis being King�, when you say don�t fix what ain�t broken, I guess it comes down to personal choice as to whether it needs fixing or not.  I don�t like standard, normal things. They�re too predictable, too cookie cutter.  I want to be different and I want what I write to be different.  IMO, it�s not that different, it�s just a different philosophy or mindset.  I didn�t try and just omit these tension builders, etc.  I just tried to do it a different way.  If it doesn�t work for you, based on that, then I understand.  I think it does work the way it is, and I don�t think it�s at all more predictable because of it.

Yes, you are correct�I love a slow build.  Not sure why you�re saying it�s so obvious that Emma is going to be killed.  In my original draft, she actually remains alive and is saved by Maia.  Original readers were happy she survived.  I didn�t like that.  I wanted this to be grim, dark, and mean spirited, thus, I killed Em off, but I did it O.S., meaning that you don�t know whether or not she made it until we get back to Logan�s basement.

Sorry Maia didn�t work for you.  I do not agree with having to foreshadow everything.  Maia could have just been another potential victim.  I wanted some revenge for what Logan has been doing, and I also wanted a supernatural element.  The original plot concept followed along exactly, except I wasn�t sure about how and why the final protag would survive and flip things.  I obviously wasn�t going for laughs here, Dec, so I guess it�s obvious this didn�t work for you at all.  Why do you have problems with the logic here?  Maia says to Logan that she doesn�t always make it on time, but God knows she sure tries.  Again, in an earlier draft, Maia did make it on time to save Emma.  In this final version, she didn�t.  Maia can�t save everyone, all the time.  She does what she can, when she can.  I really didn�t want to develop her anymore than I did.

I get that damn Deus Ex Machina thing thrown at me a lot.  I don�t agree with it, but maybe that�s just me.  It�s supposed to be dark, dirty, and cold.  That�s exactly what I was after.  I don�t think it goes so far as to not having any humanity.   There�s always more story everywhere, but this is the story I wanted to tell.  These are the scenes I wanted to show.

I wasn�t looking to be mysterious here.  I wasn�t implying that �key to my heart� had anything to do with opening his heart, or releasing him.  No angels in this tale and no beauty in death.  Death is ugly and I wanted to make it as ugly and disturbing as possible.  Obviously, this will not appeal to everyone (actually, it seems it�s not appealing to much of anyone!).

I can�t say I agree with opening this on page 12.  I really like the first 11 pages.  Again, it�s the story I was after here and my take on this genre.  

OK Dec, that about does it.  I appreciate your feedback very much.  I don�t mean to argue with you over any of this, as IMO, it�s all a matter of personal choice.  Some people love Hostel and think it�s ground breaking, while others literally hate it and think it�s a pile of shit.  To each is own when it all comes down.

Thanks again!!!


It's simple. You make the rules in your script. The audience suspends disbelief to a certain extent, but they BELIEVE what the writer tells them.

You tell us up front that there is a serial killer on the loose. 1 major, logical,  reason why a girl wouldn't go off on her own.

You introduce her to us as a girl new to the area who needs protection.

So you introduce two very compelling reasons why she wouldn't go off on her own.

You basically write yourself into a corner and the only way out of it is to make Logan so attractive that he makes her fall in love with him straight away.

The problem is, what you wrote just doesn't make it believable. You have the cheesy line about the key and then you skip to where they are basically in love.

The way you described Logan in your post does not come across in the script. Nothing suggests he's that likeable, except for her reaction, but it's not enough.

It's not WHAT is happening that's the problem, it's the fact that it is not believable that this particular character Emma, is so in love with this particular character Logan. The evidence you present is not compelling enough.

Suspension of disbelief only goes so far. Coleridge (who coined the phrase) suggested that if a writer could infuse a "human interest and a semblance of truth" into a fantastic tale, the reader would suspend judgment concerning the implausibility of the narrative. He was specifically talking about stories about clearly unrealistic premises eg for the sake of argument, Alice in Wonderland.

It does not extend to suspending disbelief over human interaction in a seeming realistic portrayal of real life.

As for the predictability. I'll explain why it is predictable:

1. We know before the story starts it's about murder. Tanis told us.
2. We meet the girls, but automatically assume they are the victims, not the killer (it's the norm)
3. You tell us there is a serial killer who is killing women, so the assumption is it's a man.
4. You only introduce one guy to the story. There are no red herrings. It plays exactly as you would expect.

We expect that he's going to kill her because that's the way the story is structured.

It's unpredictable at the end, of course, because you just throw in a new character out of nowhere. It could just as easily have been an alien or a werewolf, a giant spider because it wasn't foreshadowed

As for the rest of the post, there's not much point discussing it further. You very strong opinions on how you want your work to be, and I can respect that. It basically means that there is no point in giving you feedback, because it's essentially redundant. I don't mean that in any way nastily.

As Mark Twain said, man knows no greater compunction than to edit other people's work.

The only thing I will say is that I believe that Hostel has a far too strong hold over you as a writer. I believe that your appreciation of that film is weakening your ability to construct scripts. I agree fully with what Andrew said above.

IMHO you have taken the wrong lesson from the success of Hostel and you are basing too much of your own scripts on what the majority found badly done about that film.

I have also seen you say that the "boring" part of Wolf Creek made you appreciate the second half more and so you try to emulate it. I have to admit to finding it highly ironic that you would try to emulate something you didn't really like. It's also highly ironic that you seem to have somewhat missed the point about why that part of the film worked so well for so many people. It was a brilliantly tense opening that subverted lots of horror cliches whilst using the geography and a series of events to inform the audience that something terrible was going to happen, whilst keeping us guessing as to what it was.

You say you don't like cookie cutter scripts, but you seem to have settled on your own structure that you adhere to rigidly. A slow build that is separated from the core of the story, followed by a sudden reveal that has not been foreshadowed in any way earlier in the script.

I also think it's funny that you changed the script to make it LESS likeable for the audience. That's a new one.... .

I'm sure this post seems quite nasty and it's not meant to. I am just concerned that in your attempt to break new ground, you're actually re-treading some very old ground indeed. You are deliberately introducing what I can only call school boy errors into your work.

Deus ex machina endings were ridiculed over two thousand years ago.


Quoted Text
A deus ex machina  literally, in Latin, "god from the machine") is a plot device where a previously intractable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved, usually with the contrived introduction of either characters, abilities, or objects not mentioned before within the storyline. It is generally considered to be a poor storytelling technique because it undermines the story's internal logic.


Doesn't the above exactly describe Maia?

Aristotle was taking the piss out of them before Jesus was born.


Quoted Text
In the characters too, exactly as in the structure of the incidents, [the poet] ought always to seek what is either necessary or probable, so that it is either necessary or probable that a person of such-and-such a sort say or do things of the same sort, and it is either necessary or probable that this [incident] happen after that one.

It is obvious that the solutions of plots too should come about as a result of the plot itself, and not from a contrivance, as in the Medea and in the passage about sailing home in the Iliad. A contrivance must be used for matters outside the drama�either previous events which are beyond human knowledge, or later ones that need to be foretold or announced. For we grant that the gods can see everything. There should be nothing improbable in the incidents; otherwise, it should be outside the tragedy, e.g. that in Sophocles� Oedipus.


I repeat, I'm not having a go at you here. It's all intended in the best of spirits. I've read two scripts from you now (Fade and this one), both have excellent premises with real potential. Killers working for the Devil and a vicious supernatural killer that protects women from predators.

In your desperation to subvert the rules, you've hidden both stories until the very end of the scripts and then rushed through them in a matter of seconds. What should be the key cornerstones of your work are being made into an afterthought.

It's a real shame IMO. It really is.

Eli Roth has a lot to answer for.

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Scar Tissue Films  -  January 25th, 2010, 3:54pm
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Dreamscale
Posted: January 25th, 2010, 4:11pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Dec, don't worry, I honestly do appreciate all feedback...even if it sounds like I'm trying to argue my point.  I'm not, I'm just trying to explain where I'm coming from and why.

Your posts do not come across as nasty or that you're having a go at me.  I really like these sorts of back and forths.  It gives me great insight into how others think and feel...and why.

I do have very strong beliefs about how scripts/movies should be, and how they shouldn't be.  I'm a huge movie buff as well as a critic at heart.  IMO, the best of these bring about strong reactions, both negative and positive.  This is what I'm always after.  I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, just trying to alter it a bit.

Did you read my Fade?  Did you give feedback?  I don't think you did, but I could be wrong (yes, even I am wrong quite frequently LOL!).  I'll have to check and see...if not, I would love to get some feedback from you on it.

I don't agree that Maia is Deus ex machina.  Since my script does not follow standard structure, I don’t feel Maia is even intro’d late.  Her intro follows the first half of the script very closely, but then things change.  They change because that’s why she’s here.  She’s different.  She could have been a regular old chick and somehow outwitted Logan and killed him in the process.  The fact that’s she’s not, doesn’t come across as Deus ex machina to me, but then again, I don’t really agree with the entire concept for the most part.  Sure, there are thousands of great examples of this throughout history, but I just don’t see it here.

As for Logan and Emma’s “relationship”, keep in mind that the vast majority of it takes place O.S. (a personal choice I made to skip what I found to be dull and not necessary to the script).  You know, if you really analyze things like this, you have to understand that you only get so much screen time to show what you want to show.  Other things take place O.S., and based on how characters act, or what happens, (I think) you have to read between the lines, so to speak, and read in what must have taken place O.S.  It’s a personal choice that most here don’t seem to agree with.

What I’m saying is this…the story that I wanted to tell (and show) was how Logan picked up his victims, what he did with them, and then how his latest potential victim turns the tables on him, and what she does to him.  Very simple, actually.  It is what it is.  The violence and language is what I wanted to use to get my points across.  I wasn’t looking to write a mystery here.  I wasn’t trying to write a character study.  I am not concerned with following a standard 3 act structure, nor am I concerned with following typical plotting and the like.  I do completely understand how you and many others can see that as a big problem.  I don’t though.  If you follow screen writing books and the like, you’re going to tend to stay within the lines, and that’s fine.  If you don’t however, you’re going to tend to not worry about these things.  I like to buck the system, but I try to do it in a way that makes sense, is easy to follow, and delivers on what it sets out to do.

I probably use the examples of Hostel and Wolf Creek too frequently.  They just come to mind often when I’m trying to make a point.  The thing about WC, about the first half being so dull that it made the 2nd half so powerful, probably doesn’t come out exactly as I intend it to.  What works best about it is how hard things hit, when they finally do.  It’s literally shocking and jarring right after the main protag wakes up, tied up.  Same can be said for Hostel.  The first half is so completely different than the 2nd half, that it’s even more shocking and powerful when we finally discover exactly what’s going on.  Both films have balls, are brutal, and pull no punches.  They aim to be different, they are different, and they both succeed with what they set out to accomplish.

OK, you know I could go on, but hopefully you understand what I’m saying and where I’m coming from.  This is not a feel good script, and it’s not supposed to be.  It’s supposed to be shocking.  It’s supposed to be ugly.  It’s supposed to be controversial.  It’s supposed to be brutal.  And most importantly, it’s supposed to be different…even though it’s a very simple premise that is well travelled, the end effect hopefully leaves you feeling like, whether you liked it or not, you’ll remember it, you’ll remember some images, maybe even some dialogue.

Again, Dec, I totally appreciate your feedback, advice, and thoughts in general.  I know that you know your shit, and it shows in what you say and how you say it.  Just because I don’t tend to agree with it all, does not make it come across as nasty in any way, or that I have a problem with it.

Thanks again for your time here.  It does help and I honestly mean that.  Take care!
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Dreamscale
Posted: January 25th, 2010, 4:52pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Zack, thanks for reading and your feedback.  I know you’re not a big reviewer type of guy, so your insight here is very much appreciated.

I think you are missing quite a lot in regards to what Soul Shadows is all about.   It’s a series, much like Tales from the Crypt, and others like it.  Tannis is our crypt keeper, so to speak.  Tannis is written by Bert, and each episode has an intro and xtro with Tannis.  Each also has a title page showing the item in the story.  BTW, just about every single Tannis piece has words and phrases like “we…” and camera directions.  That’s just the way Bert decided to write her parts.  It may be distracting at first, but after awhile, it seems to work quite well, IMO.

I’m surprised you didn’t like the dialogue, but understand it’s a personal issue.  I tried to make it as “real” as possible.  If you listen to the iscript, I think you’ll find it works better than you may have initially thought.  I don’t think the reader hit all the marks with the dialogue, but he did a pretty good job for the most part.

There’re only 3 girls, so you shouldn’t really have that big of a problem keeping track of them.  Two of them are born and raised “Skonsinites”, so IMO, they should be pretty easy to tell apart.

You know, if you really think about it, there’s going to be some kind of nutcase on the loose just about everywhere, at any given time. People tend to “joke around” about things like this to make themselves feel more secure.  I think it’s just human nature, actually.

Logan’s dialogue is purposely written the way it is, as I’ve said numerous times before.  It’s his shtick.  It’s cheesy, it’s goofy even.  Would it work on anyone and everyone?  No, but it would work on some for sure.  He comes across as a good guy.  He’s nice, he’s polite, he’s helpful.  He seems like someone you can trust.  I guess the bottom line is that dialogue works in weird ways for people.  Some will get it and like it, others will find it odd and not like it.  Sorry it didn’t work for you.

Many others don’t see Em falling for a guy so fast.  But is it really “falling” for him?  It’s an attraction.  It’s chemistry.  It’s also alcohol and raw sexuality at play here in a setting that totally condones this stuff.  IMO, it doesn’t come off as unrealistic at all, but I guess I’m in the minority here.

HaHa!  You liked the first cheesy pun but not the 2nd or 3rd?  I can see what you’re saying.  I just tried to be consistent and make it obvious that this was a running gag.

Logan has a split personality, so to speak.  He uses “Tyler” as his name when he’s out and about, and “Logan” (his real name) when he’s getting down to his business.

You are correct about using “Tyler” incorrectly on page 12.  I’ll fix it.

Glad you like Logan’s unique way of binding his victims, as well as the self scalping.  I thought that was pretty cool, myself. It took awhile to conceive these ideas.  I wanted it to be unique and brutal.  Yeah, the nipple biting is quite brutal again.  Just wanted to include a little onscreen violence, cause up to here, most is O.S.

Yeah, I guess Death Proof is a good example here.  I like that movie very much and it kind of falls in line with how I like to structure my scripts.

I really didn’t want to turn this into a heavily character based story.  Just wanted to paint who and what everyone is and go from there.  I don’t think the power of this script lies in its characterization.

Yeah, the abduction scenes are basically word for word, other than a few subtle changes, but that was intentional.  I can see where some won’t appreciate it.

Others are in agreement that the last act plays too fast, and probably the first, plays too long.  I decided to set the stage with the long section and run through the violent end much quicker.  Personal choice here.  Sorry it came off as unsatisfying.

Zack, I’m very bummed that you are pretty disappointed with this.  I thought you’d dig it…I really did.  I won’t be doing a heavy rewrite.  I will make a few corrections and changes that will help, but otherwise, this is what it’s going to be.

Thanks for your honesty and feedback, Zack.  I totally appreciate it!
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Zack
Posted: January 25th, 2010, 5:08pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Jeff,

I do think you're a great writer and you have a decent foundation here, but you really need to add to it. I have the same problem with nearly all of my scripts, so don't feel to bad. I honestly think adding 5-10 pages to the second half of the script would really help flesh this out.

I'll be sure to keep an eye out for more of your shorts.

~Zack~
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Dreamscale
Posted: January 25th, 2010, 5:11pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Tim, thanks so much for the read and review.  Your feedback is appreciated.

Yeah, the stuff about the tail gating is all true and real.  There are numerous “hot spots” around Lambeau Field where huge tail gating parties take place.  One of the most popular is in this K Mart parking lot.

I wasn’t trying to conceal that Logan was going to be our antag here.  I kind of wanted you to know right from the get go.

I agree with you about Emma and characters in general making bad, stupid decisions.  Others have issues with it, but I’m Ok with that.

I agree with you about the “what’d ya say” line.  I’ve changed it (it actually appears in 2 places.  Good catch!

I always spell “a lot” as “alot”.  Saves a space and I truly believe it’s one of those things that can be fine either way.  I also believe that one of these days, it will be totally accepted…we’ll see.

Glad this seemed to work for you for the most part.  Thanks again!
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Dreamscale
Posted: January 25th, 2010, 5:36pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Andrew, wish I could tell you I am well and everything is rosy, but it’s not.  Tough times for this kid lately.  Rough waters ahead, but I’ll try and keep the boat afloat.  Thanks for reading and giving your thoughts.

I wouldn’t necessarily agree that all my scripts center around college kids and beer drinking, but I guess I hear what you’re saying.  No college kids here, but yes, beer drinking.  But they’re at a Packers game in WI, and that’s what goes down there.  WI girls do enjoy their Leinies…they really do!  The Miller Light stuff also provides Logan a perfect “in” so to speak.

Again, I don’t agree with you or the many others that felt like the intro’s and exchanges of Logan and the girls to be either on the nose or unnatural.  Maybe it’s a Midwestern or WI thing?  I don’t know, but I find it very natural and realistic, actually.  Call me crazy.

OK, let’s see…the belch came from WC?  What part?  I honestly don’t recall that.  Billy from Scream brushing back his hair?  Hmmm, not sure about that either, guess it didn’t stand out for me, cause I’ve seen Scream at least 100 times.  What carbon copy is Em’s attack in Fade?  I know that script pretty damn well, and nothing is coming to mind.  You mean that she is hit over the head while she isn’t expecting it?  Otherwise, I don’t see the similarities here at all.

I try to be as imaginative as I can be, and 1 thing people don’t usually label me with is being unimaginable.  Oh well, that’s cool.  Let’s move on…

“Twee” is not a word I’m familiar with.  I think you used it in your Fade review as well, and I think I questioned it then.  As I’ve said a number of times now, this is not a character study and I didn’t want to establish anyone anymore than I did. Sorry if it didn’t work for you.

Em’s “absurd 14 year old dreams of romance” are not really the issue here, IMO.  I wouldn’t even really call it romance.  It’s a situation where guys and girls get together, hook up, whatever happens from there, happens.  Em is new to WI.  Logan comes off as a great “opportunity”.  He’s well to do, he’s attractive, he’s nice, polite, etc.  Alcohol and chemistry took over.  Again, I hear what you’re saying, but I don’t personally agree.

Hostel 2 was great, IMO.  Captivity sucked!  We could discuss the hows and whys to both flicks for hours, but no reason to go there now.

What decomposing bodies in WC?  You mean at the very end where the dude is in that cave with the dogs?  I didn’t intentionally lift anything form anything else.  I really spent quite awhile coming up with everything in here, and IMO, it is quite different from anything else.  But that’s just my opinion.  Sorry this felt limp to you.  That bums me out for sure.

Yes, this is indeed a very negative review, but that’s OK.  I appreciate any and all reviews and definitely respect your opinion, Andrew.  It’s supposed to be something like Tales from the Crypt…exactly, actually.  That’s what Soul Shadows is all about, IMO.

I definitely take your review in the sprit intended, Andrew.  Hopefully, I can deliver on your higher expectations in the near future.  I don’t feel like I’m in a torture vibe at all, actually.  I don’t even see this as torture, to be honest.  That’s just me, I guess.
Thanks again, bud.  Take care.
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Dreamscale
Posted: January 25th, 2010, 5:56pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Ste, long time, bud, hope all is well!  Thanks for reading.

Glad this was a quick, easy read.

I really wasn’t trying to conceal Logan’s true character, but sometimes, when things seem so obvious, well, they’re not.  A good point.

Also a good point about Logan’s fake name.  I debated over this and how to show it, but ended up going this route.  It doesn’t work for everyone.

Someone else also thought about Death Proof.  I didn’t at the time, but I can see where you’re coming from.  Yeah, Maia was indeed mocking Logan, and I’m glad you did see a bit of foreshadowing as to what was going to go down.

Sorry the end didn’t live up to what you were hoping for.  I actually really like how it ends, but most do not.  Can’t please all of ‘em all the time (sometimes, I can’t please any of ‘em, any of the time!).

Thanks again, mate!  I appreciate your input very much.


OK, that's all of them!  I'm caught up.  Thanks again to all who have read and provided feedback.  It means alot to me and it's all taken in and processed.
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jayrex
Posted: January 28th, 2010, 5:31pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Jeff, finally got around to reading your script.

I had only skimmed a few posts.

My initial thoughts were if you sat me down to watch this without telling me what it's about.  I'd think it was a romantic film.  You did a good job going from lovable Tyler to crazy Logan.

I didn't get the supernatural vibe but horror instead.  Logan kind of reminded me of Jack The Ripper.

I think if you reduced the first twelve to six and started off with horror straight off the bat, then that would of been good.  Maybe a snippet of what's to come for Emma, with Logan & Kaylee?  What does he do with these cut of body parts, eat them or keep them as trophies, or something else?

I also think it would have been better for Logan to pick up Maia from a different location rather than outside in the K-Mart parking lot.  If Logan keeps picking these girls up in the same place, it would raise some concerns?

I liked when Maia stabs and leaves the key in Logan's chest, that was good.

Overall, I thought it was a good effort although it could of done with some more of supernatural elements.

I enjoyed Tanis again, can't wait for the script.  I wonder how many more SS scripts are to go?

All the best,


Javier


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bert
Posted: January 28th, 2010, 6:09pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from jayrex
I wonder how many more SS scripts are to go?


There are three:  Next from "itmightbeorange" (her real name escapes me now); after that is Gabe, or "Mr. Ripley"; and finally, my own.

Last season we had several members "drop out".  I expected the same thing to happen this time -- only nobody did.  Every member who committed to a script produced a script -- which is pretty great and pretty odd at the same time.

So, 13 episodes all told.

I am excited about the Tanis script -- my first original, posted piece of "for-fun" writing in about two years.

I am also going to "get my Balt on" and assure you that it is very, very good haha.


Hey, it's my tiny, little IMDb!
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Dreamscale
Posted: January 29th, 2010, 5:35pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Javier, thanks for the read and notes.

Cool , glad the beginning worked the way it was supposed to.  I like the long, drawn out intro, and then, WHAM, change things up drastically.

Yeah, this is definitely much more horror than supernatural.  As far as I understood it, Soul Shadows needed an item in Tannis’ possession that was found on a dead character, and there needed to be supernatural elements. Maia was my supernatural element.  A few have said that my script didn’t follow along with the Soul Shadows theme, so maybe I misunderstood something along the way.  Who knows, it’s my interpretation of what Soul Shadows should be…or could be, I guess.

I actually kind of like your idea.  I could easily have started with a 1 page intro, showing Kaylee chained up in the basement, but not shown Logan.  Kind of how Hostel started in the actual torture chamber, but didn’t reveal anything else.  But, by doing that, I would have lost the effect of first seeing the basement when we know Emma is in there.  It’s a great idea though, and I appreciate it!

The only reason Logan slices off the girls breasts is because they don’t allow him to do as he pleases with them.  They cry, scream, etc, so he basically decides if they’re not going to allow him to make them his sex slave (so to speak), he needs to get rid of what’s making him so horny…their breasts.  And eventually, they die due to loss of blood, as well as the fact that all 3 actually pulled their own scalp off, in the process of trying to escape.  So, no, he doesn’t eat them or save them or anything like that.

You’re probably right about Logan needing to use a different pickup spot each time.  I’ve already decided to use a different car each time.  There are numerous tail gating spots in and around Lambeau Field, the K Mart may be the biggest, but I could use Kroll’s, the actual parking lot in Lambeau, or any front lawn party going on.  Another good suggestion, Javier!  Thanks.

Glad you seemed to like it.  Thanks again for the great feedback!
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jwent6688
Posted: January 31st, 2010, 9:14am Report to Moderator
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Jeff, I cannot believe you did a Soul shadows. After all the ass ripping you've done of those SS scripts that I've read you've officially joined the clan.

I enjoyed this. Yes it was cheesy dialogue, but fit the theme. There are some major plot holes that were mentioned in previous posts. No biggy IMO for a short.

Major Kudos on the women scalping themselves to try to get away. Although, if they couldn't get their hands free, what good would it do them to pull their heads away from the wall. If you had more space, you could tease them with a key they could bite with their mouthes to get free.

Again, thoroughly enjoyed this. nice work man...

james


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Dreamscale
Posted: January 31st, 2010, 11:48am Report to Moderator
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Hey James, what's going on, man?  Haven't seen you around for awhile.

Yeah, you're right...I ripped alot of these, but then again, I rip alot of script, period.  I don't do it to be an ass or anything.  I merely say what I feel and try to offer advice and help, etc.  I'm just a picky motherfiucker, I guess.

The deal with the girls scalping themselves is basically that they're so tormented, they pretty much lose it.  I think when you're in a situation like that, you aren't thinking logically.  You don't realize at the time, that even though you get your head free, you're still not going anywhere.  It's more about just being able to move their heads around...see what's around them, etc., than actually achieving freedom.

Thanks for teh read and notes...always appreciate it.  Hope all is well.
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Colkurtz8
Posted: January 31st, 2010, 2:27pm Report to Moderator
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Jeff
I finally got around to checking this out. I read it first then listened to iscript.

First off, I must admit that I’m not a big supernatural fan, seen way to many sub-standard paranormal/psychological films/TV Shows to leave me with little faith in the genre...although I did love “Poltergeist” when I was younger, freaked the absolute sh?t out of me.

To get it out of the way, I didn’t take note of technical errors, formatting issues, typos, etc. Simply because 1) I don’t think you are going to go changing much since it’s part of the series and has already being aurally produced, so to speak 2) You are known, (notoriously among SS members) for extremely clean, professional writing, the old adage of “Don’t tell a priest how to say mass” comes to mind. So I left that department well enough alone.

Anyway, in terms of the script, I had mixed feelings on this, both good and bad. Unfortunately, overall, my impressions are leaning more to the latter. I see you’ve (rightfully) gotten a lot of feedback on this so I chose not to browse through it, as to not run the risk of my own perceptions being influenced. Rather, I’m telling you solely how I felt about it after reading and listening, so naturally there is a strong possibility I will repeat what’s already been said, apologies in advance.

From the beginning with the set-up of the three hot girls and subsequent intro of Logan/Tyler I detected that you were possibly going down the slasher route. It just had that feel to it, the chirpy, bubbly, slightly corny banter between the girls to the hunky jock’s intervention and immediate spark with the nervous, quieter, out-of-towner member of the group. It had all the hallmarks of that kind of film, also being aware of your “Fade to White” I know that stuff is right up your alley.
One major problem with the Logan/Tyler character is that you introduce him as Logan before he calls himself Tyler to the girls. Straight away our suspicions are piqued. This is maybe where your devotions to the rules of scriptwriting might have hindered you. Yeah, you are supposed to introduce a character as who they are and that handle shouldn’t change for the duration of the script but here, for the sake of storytelling, more specifically, from the readers perspective you should have let on that his name was in fact Tyler both in prose and dialogue.

I realise that if you were watching this, it wouldn’t be a problem but the reader should be treated the same way as the audience, no? He calls himself Tyler, right, so as far as the filmed version would play out we would take that as the truth...until later of course. Why not call him Tyler from the beginning so then we, the reader, can find out his true identity when the audience is meant to find out, it’s part and parcel of the script’s drama and deception.

So as he is getting to know the girls, coming off as the well mannered, down-to-earth, artistically & financially endowed Mr. Right, I can’t get this nagging uneasy feeling about him out of my mind. Before, bam! On page 6 another ominous, too-blatant-to-ignore piece of information is dropped, by Logan of all people, regarding the kidnapping of two girls AT THE LAST TWO HOME GAMES!! I mean, that’s it for me, the writing isn’t so much written as carved 6 inches deep with a hammer and chisel into the wall.

At the same time, having read your “Fade to White” feature script which caught me way off guard through the superbly crafted twist, a small part of me was entertaining the notion that maybe one of the girls was the killer, even Emma and that was going to be the unexpected turn of events. But then again, I figured you wouldn’t go over the same ground by pulling the same stroke as a previous of yours.

When Logan and Emma’s friendship starts to blossom, I went with it, you know, the occasion, the alcohol, his charms and all that but for her to go with him alone to his place, and hour and a half away was too much for me. I know it was needed to move the story along but it just wasn’t plausible regardless if this is supernatural fiction or not, I couldn’t buy it. I know you are a stickler for believability and that ever present “would they really do that” question, reasoning and logic, etc so I know you’ll see where I’m coming from concerning this part of the story.
The key to her heart scene was pure cheddar but I gathered that was your intention, even Logan himself and Alyssa allude to it so it didn’t bother me. Made me laugh more than anything.

Again, my feelings towards the tone and delivery of dialogue in those scenes was cringe-worthy cheesy at times but I can only assume this was all in the spirit of this type of story and its characters, it fitted, thus it worked for me.

To recap, my biggest issues with act I was how you introduced Logan, what you revealed to us through his character, personality, perceived background as well as his interaction with the girls, waaay too much was given away here, in my opinion. Also, the way in which you set-up the plot in order for it to develop from this point with Logan and Emma felt so unbelievable that it came off as pure contrivance, merely implied to get us from point A to point B, without any consideration for actual reality. Of course, I understand the script contains otherworldly, fantastical elements, let’s say, it isn’t exactly “based on actual events” or anything but still, these are meant to be smart, discerning mid-twenties women, not impossible(you see cases of it every year on the news, Ted Bundy thrived off such blind trust) but given these circumstances, the three women together, only having met Logan, Emma seemingly the shy one, jumping into a jeep for a 90 min drive with a stranger, I don’t know, I’m willing to suspend belief, but we all have our limits within the frame, tone and style of a given story. Here I couldn’t get past it.

Now maybe you wanted us to know that Logan is the killer, it seems that way because it’s so obvious plus the bigger turning point comes later but still, it would’ve been a lot more effective if you had thrown us a few red-herrings to put us off before realisation dawns on us. Preferably right before he knocks Emma out, like your “Fade To Script” script with the scene in the shed, I still remember that, man, classic.

Unfortunately, I don’t know how you could do that, given the way in which you have orchestrated the story’s set up. There really is no way to divert our suspicions from Logan, he’s our number one prime suspect when he enters the fray and by page 12 this is inevitably confirmed, thus lessening what should be a scene of surprise and shock to nothing more than an underwhelming “I saw that coming” reaction.
For the next 5 and a half pages we got one long torture scene, which on a dramatic level I’ve no problems with, I’ll admit to getting many a twisted thrill from the (first 3) Saw films.

Logan’s dialogue could be stronger, menacing, less predictable, I get he’s a sick person and believed he was, it’s just I’ve heard that character a million times before. I was hoping you’d give him some trait of habit to set him apart, make him more memorable, distinguishable.

Think Frank Booth in “Blue Velvet” with his oxygen mask. You may not remember what he said (bar his penchant for profanities), but man, you’ll vividly recall him sucking that apparatus to give him the necessary buzz to carry out his abuses.
Logan came across like all the rest of them.

However, what did separate him was his primary technique of incarceration. His de-scalping method, I loved that, great, grizzly imagination. I violently squirmed and pulled my best “disgusted” face at that visual, the whole sensation of it sends shivers down my spine. Something which will stay with me for a while, nice job with that.

I believe, as a whole it was a very effective scene, very disturbed stuff there, certainly no punches pulled. Personally, they were my (I don’t know what this says about me) favourite scenes in the piece. I know you’re an avid horror fan “Hostel” anyone? And it shows as you definitely seem most at home writing this kind of stuff, it’s where you really get to flex your literary muscles and allow your imagination to roam wild. It shows on the page, and even sounded good on the iscript, which is an admirable achievement in my book as most stuff I listened to, for me, doesn’t translate well. And may I say I don’t attribute this in any way to the quality of the actual scripts that have undergone the treatment.

The final act does throw up the second “twist” which you concealed better but (and I’m not one for anticipating twists all that well) I was expecting Maia to turn the tables on Logan. Principally because of the references to her lips, odd smile her extremely forward nature and again, where else can the story go? Seeing how far we’ve gone in the script and what’s left, knowing that Logan’s gonna bring her to his house, it can be deduced that Maia will have a trick up her sleeve.

Once things unfold, again your writing here is at its most potent, visually wonderful, it’s played out well, seeing the shoe on the other foot, imagining Logan flip and flop in excruciating pain brought out that twisted thrill again in me.

But do you not think Maia, this guardian, this saviour, came out of nowhere? And much too late in the story? There was no foreshadowing, no prior mention of her, nothing. Again, I don’t know how you would do this but her appearance felt like an afterthought, rushed, merely plonked in there to take care of Logan. I would even go so far as to call her a deux ex machine plot device, inserted to kick ass, take names and ultimately conclude the script. It was an interesting notion of this ruthless, female protector in the form of a vampire and almost a turn on to see her do what she does best but her placement within the context of the script was way off, unprecedented, a short cut and a big issue for me as a way of finishing the piece.

     MAIA
What's a matter? Cat got your tongue?

-- This may be just me, but a saying as overused and ubiquitous as “cat got your tongue” has no place in a script. Much like “It’s not rocket science” “easy come, easy go” “what goes around, comes around” etc. There bland, display a lack of creativity and just downright annoying. Of course, this could be just me.

I don’t mean to sound wantonly harsh or critical but I know you demand honesty as all serious writers should and this is what I’ve given you. It had some flashes of brilliance, some great writing, gruesome visuals, a fantastic line in “I'm gonna cut your fucking tits off and feed 'em to you. You like that idea?” but overall it was let down severely by plot, structure and premature exposition.

You boxed yourself in with the way you went about it, Logan is revealed explicitly on page 12 to be not who he says he is, the problem is, we already know this by 3 and given the details on page 6. But like I already asked, who else can it be?

To counteract the predictability of the 1st act you go way left field in the third act (maybe not too extreme since it’s Soulshadows but you know what I mean) so it’s two extremes from the blatantly, ominously obvious to the random, out-of-the-blue shocking. The aftertaste for me was one of WTF? confusion, but more so, detachment and disengagement with the script, its characters and their fate.

p.s I loved the Tanis bookends, particularly the epilogue. The heart on the spit was cool, as was the fitting of the key. Did you suggest that to Bert?

Sorry again if I come across as being a prick, these were my genuine, unfiltered thoughts.

Either way, it’s always a perfectly formatted pleasure to read your work.

Take care

Col.



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Colkurtz8  -  February 1st, 2010, 4:48am
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Dreamscale
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Hey Col, thanks so much for the read and review.  Don’t ever worry about coming off as harsh or being a dick, whatever.  I totally respect your feedback, and whether or not I always agree with you, I think you’re a great writer and reviewer.  You bring up things that no one else does, and for that alone, I love hearing what you have to say.

Mixed feelings are fine.  I’m sorry your feelings lean toward the negative side though.  Overall, I actually really like what you have to say here, and it sounds to me that you may have liked it more than you originally thought (funny, huh, how I can spin that around?).  In many ways, it’s tough to get people to like something that is purposely disgusting and troubling.  Maybe memorable is what I was after here.

Yes, the horror genre is definitely where I like to place my hat.  I’ve wanted to write a semi slasher script for awhile now…maybe even a torture porn entry, so I guess this is it…for now.

Even in my logline, I wasn’t trying to conceal much, or even anything.  I actually wanted this to be fairly obvious where we were headed.  True, it may indeed be my way of once again bucking the system, but it was intended.  As for introing Logan as Logan, vs. Tyler, I was doing 2 things:  staying true to the rules that I believe in and follow, and also letting everyone know immediately that something was amiss.  I was a little worried that some would be confused, but I decided this was the way I wanted to go with it.

As for the drama and deception of the script, I wasn’t after either, so to speak.  It’s usually painfully obvious what’s what and who’s who in these types of scripts, so I didn’t want to go that usual route, and try and deceive anyone.  I wanted you to prepare for what was eventually going to happen.  My deception and the like was meant for later, and also in the actual way that things would go down.

Yeah, as I said before, sometimes, when things seem so blatantly obvious, they turn out not to be.  I did want just a hint of not being sure if it would play out how it seemed, or introduce a huge twist that you may have been looking for or thinking about.

Most are in agreement with you about the believability of Emma going with Logan so “easily”.  In the scripts defense, I’m going to say what I’ve said numerous times already.  This stuff does happen all the time, it’s happened with me many, many times, and just based on that alone, I personally have no problem with the believability of this plot point.

Yes, the parmesan was purposely heavily sprinkled on top.  But again, as crazy as it may sound, cheesy lines and the like work a lot more than you might imagine.  If delivered in a purposely cheesy way, it comes off as an intentional joke, but still does the job.  If you really think about it, the keys to success at just about anything, are saying what the other wants to hear.  If you can get away with it with tongue in cheek, IMO, it’s all the more effective.

Again, I really didn’t want to plant any red herrings here and I wanted you to “know” (or think you knew) Logan was going to turn out to be a problem.  Glad the shed scene from Fade sticks in your mind.  Thanks, that’s really cool.

As for Logan’s shtick, dialogue, and characteristics, I did try to make him unique…guess my uniqueness was his form of capture, his brutality, coldness, sexual deviousness, and the like.  The thing about classic antags is that once we’re familiar with them, any time another character acts in a similar fashion, we think back to the original, which IMO, isn’t totally fair.  But that’s another entire discussion in itself.

Glad you were disgusted/troubled and the like by the basement scene.  That was completely my intention and was meant to be the meat of the script, and what would set it apart.  I don’t like pulling punches and I sure didn’t here. I went for what I thought would stand out in anyone’s mind for a long time.  Wanted to get as cringe worthy as I could, without going over the top into cartoonish violence.  I wanted it real, brutal, and troubling.  If you paid close attention, there isn’t any real onscreen violence (other than Logan biting Emma’s nipple) until Maia is glued to the basement wall, and that’s not until page 22!  Sure there are dead bodies and disturbing dialogue and allusions to violence, but nothing until the very end.  I really wanted to “show” brutal violence, without showing much of anything, really.

I agree that the iscript sounded pretty decent for the most part.  The reader didn’t hit every piece of dialogue correctly, but he pulled most of it off pretty well.  Not to sound like a conceited ass or anything, but I think it worked because the dialogue came off as real…and real disturbing!

Yes, you’re correct again, Maia’s intro is supposed to send a slight message that things aren’t going to go as before.  But I did not want to let in on what/who Maia was, or what she was going to do, other than turn the tables on Logan, until Maia “outed” herself.

Yep, the 2 basement scenes are the reason for the script.  They’re definitely the set pieces and the parts you’re supposed to remember.  I guess this is how I like to write and what I like in a movie.  A lot of lead in, climbing up the roller coaster’s big hill, all for the “ride” down.  I truly believe that lulls in action make the action hit that much harder when it hits.  And I actually really enjoy the slow ride up the hill…there’s usually a lot to see up there!

You’re not alone in using that damn “deux ex machina” term, in describing Maia’s late intro.  I can’t deny that it’s against all of what the books and pros say to do/not to do, but it seems to be the way I like it.  I don’t see it at all as a negative when someone says this, actually.  I personally don’t agree with it, but maybe that’s cause I don’t see the classic deux ex machina as being bad or wrong…when done effectively.  I think you know that I take pleasure in hearing things like, “but her placement within the context of the script was way off, unprecedented”.  I don’t like following any rules, unless I agree with them.  I don’t agree with this one, and it seems to be a pattern of my scripts.  BTW, Maia is not a vampire.  She’s a demon…actually, a good demon, a protector of helpless women who are preyed upon by the likes of the Logans of the world.

HaHa, Col…funny about the “What’s a matter? Cat got your tongue?” line.  Here’s the deal…where I’m coming from and what I was trying to do here (as well as what I’ve tried to do with similar clichéd sayings in my other scripts).  I like using these types of sayings in a situation where you’ve never seen or heard them before.  Maybe another buck of the system or the norm, but IMO, they work wonderfully in such instances.  To me, it’s very funny.  It’s Maia mocking Logan, showing him who’s boss.  I mean, she just gave him a Glasgow smile (as another reviewer correctly pointed out), he can’t talk, and, again, IMO, it works quite well.  Who knows, difference of opinion for sure, but that’s cool.

Again, as I said earlier, I respect and enjoy your reviews and feedback.  I appreciate the positives here very much and understand the negatives.  BTW, I love that line too!  Funny…I was laughing my ass off when I came up with it.  Some like their scripts and movies to follow certain understood norms, but I don’t, and I doubt I’ll ever truly follow them.  I want my work to be different, to stand out, to be memorable, if nothing more.

No, Bert wrote the Tannis segments on his own.  I gave some feedback, but they’re definitely his own work.

Totally appreciate the words, Col.  Sorry I couldn’t leave you with a better taste in your mouth.  I definitely tried.  Take care, brother!
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Colkurtz8
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Quoted from Dreamscale
BTW, Maia is not a vampire.  She’s a demon…actually, a good demon, a protector of helpless women who are preyed upon by the likes of the Logans of the world.


Apologies, forgive my ignorance, I foolishly assumed due to her sharp teeth. But yeah, I saw her as a morally centred, do-gooding vampire as opposed to Stoker's kind  


Quoted from Dreamscale
It’s Maia mocking Logan, showing him who’s boss.  I mean, she just gave him a Glasgow smile (as another reviewer correctly pointed out)


I meant to include that in my review actually, another deviously, sick form of punishment, good work. It is sometimes referred to as the Chelsea smile too but more commonly Glasgow.              




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Colkurtz8  -  February 2nd, 2010, 8:00pm
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Col, you're funny.  No ignorance on your part at all, as obviously, there is nothing that says exactly what Maia is.  She didn't do anything vampiric though for sure.  She's rather ambiguous, and you know how I like having an ambiguous, late entry, deux ex machina character in every one of my scripts!  HaHa!!!!!

What's the background of the "Chelsea smile"?
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jayrex
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This is a Chelsea smile.  Every now & again I see people in London with an awful scar over their cheeks that stretches to their ears.

Two small cuts does this, then the scream does the rest.



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Dreamscale
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Wow, that's awesome.  Where'd that pic come from?  Great efx there!!!!  Love it!

Actually, when I was questioning the "Chelsea smile", I was asking where the name came from, what it means, etc.
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Colkurtz8
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Jayrex nailed it better then I ever could with that picture.

Chelsea is a part of London where it has a reputation of happening, or so the stories will tell you. Is sometimes football related, rivalry and that. Britian is the bosom of rabid hooliganism after all.



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Colkurtz8  -  February 3rd, 2010, 3:25am
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Ah...cool.  Now I get it.  Scary stuff for sure.  What a pic though, huh?
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Scar Tissue Films
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http://www.google.com/search?q.....7&rlz=1I7GGIE_en

Tommy Flanagan is an actor you may have seen with one, he got jumped outside a bar.

Pretty extreme stuff for what seems a random dispute...
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Yep, I have seen him.  Since he's from Scotland, I guess he wears the Glasgow Smile version.
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Brian M
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I'm late to the party but I've finally found the time to get to this. Pretty impressive story you have here. I've scanned over the previous comments but there are too many to read them all so excuse me if I repeat anything.

I have no problems whatsoever with the gore level here. I thought the scalp idea was kind of cool and is the type of thing that other horror writers should be beating themselves up saying "Why didn't I think of that?". Really, top marks for that one.

Major creepy scene when Logan lifts the arm of the corpse in a waving motion. Also the bit when he mimics Kaylee with a little girls voice. Very creepy stuff that would look great on film.

Another great visual, the Glasgow Smile. I can honestly say I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. Brutal stuff.

There is definite shades of "Fade to White" in here. The slow build with lots of talk, then the crazy stuff starts. I would agree with previous posters that it is fairly obvious that Logan is a killer right away because of the Logan/Tyler name confusion but if this was on film and I knew nothing about it before watching, it would work really well. While I am normally a fan of slow build ups, I wasn't with this. I think the reasons for this was because I knew where the story was going with Logan and I just wanted to get to the violence already.

I would have liked to have seen more of Maia. More time is spent with Emma than needed. I liked the twist with Maia but it would have more of an impact if you spent more pages showing Logan with Maia acting like a normal girl.

I didn't have any problems with Emma running off with Logan. Not all girls act the same way so there is every chance some would fall for Logan's act. I did have a problem with Emma's friends. Surely they would have reported Emma missing and described Logan's appearance to the police. Logan picks up Maia at the exact same spot as Emma. Maybe even showing a police sketch aritist impression of Logan as a poster on a wall in the area would be enough to tell us that Emma's friends did all they could to help her. Right now, they are like a loose end.

That's all I can think of right now. Impressive script with some neat visuals. I enjoyed reading it. Well done!

Brian
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Blakkwolfe
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Key To my heart...

Lambeau Field...the Frozen Tundra...Hallowed ground.  Like the details of the loyalty to the local brew...

Does the fact that Logan (Tyler? Tyler Logan?) drink a Miller light say something about his character? Could be...

I’d like a brat. Suggest defining it as ‘bratwurst” in a description to clarify if a reader is uncertain of the term.

Nit-pick, but should it be ‘Sconsin, since it’s abbreviated?

Right on the bay of Green Bay, Tyler says. Redundant.

The turn of conversation by Madison and Emma to spring board off Logan’s horror writing feels un-natural. Might be something they’d talk about amongst themselves, but not with a handsome guy they are all flirting with.  Suggest Logan bring it up, as , being a horror writer, it would be logical he’d be following more closely than the girls.

pg. 7...green and yellow clad fans...Getting a little redundant. We know we are in Packer country...Where are the cheeseheads? Someone has got to have a cheesehead in this script....Phew! Madison and Melissa save the day.

Emma would not leave her Packers in the third quarter if Brad Pitt were hitting on her. The team NEEDS her... To be going on an away trip with a dude she just met to meet his parents seems like a big stretch, too...It’s a big step for a couple that just met  three hours ago (with a serial killer who abducted two girls from there in the past few weeks)...Meeting the Parents = Commitment. I think that happened to Elaine on Sienfeld once.

Pg. 12. Oh dear. It appears things are going to go badly for poor Emma. Explains the Tyler/Logan naming thing.   Didn’t know the other girls were dead, which raises a question; presumedly no actors would be playing those parts, they would be props (puppets, actually, waving and such.) Would they still require a formal introduction?

Not really buying the schizo Tyler/Logan thing, as it seems like he can turn it on and off...As it is, Logan is just his exuse to be a psycho and kill and torture women. Perhaps if he came in and out, like a real schizophrenic would do- that could be really chilling to see what his alternate personality were doing...

Pg. 18. OK, so know we know Tyler’s M.O...Is Maia gonna kick his ass? Hope so.

I don’t think the dialogue/intro scene needs to be repeated. Once he tosses the football and introduces himself, we get the idea, up to the point where he pulls up to the cabin. It’s reasonable to assume that all the other stuff, including the key, would have happenend in a similar manner.  

Oh, man...she’s a monster. Why does it have to be monsters? I figured that she was going to prove to be as sick as he was, giving him a taste of his own medicine, but as  a really kick ass human woman (Like Uma or Lucy Liu)  The monster thing disappointed me...kind of popped out nowhere, like there was no other way to get the villian defeated.

Characters. Would have liked a little more depth. What drove Tyler/Logan to this level of cruelty? Should be more than a bored rich guy. Why was Emma, Kaylee and Haylee so eager to run off with this guy? Perhaps the key held a magic spell (which would correspond and establish the possibility of  the coming of the demon in the end).  

Tanis pulling the key out of the heart in the end was extremely cool.

Overall, very good attention to detail, some excellent gruesomeness in the descriptions, but would have liked to see a  more human oriented outcome.


Failure is only the opportunity to begin again more intelligently - Dove Chocolate Wrapper
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Dreamscale
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Hey T Joe, thanks for the read and comments.

Probably right about ‘Skonsin.

As for “right on the bay of Green Bay”, that’s how my Dad always describes its location.  They’ve been living up there for 15 years now.  It does sound a little funny, though, doesn’t it?

Never fear, the cheeseheads are here!

The reason Emma would leave the game early, and why Logan planned his “sunset cruise” was because the game was against the Lions…an easy win, and in this case, it was a blowout by the third quarter.

As for the formal intro for the dead girls, I think it makes sense to use all CAPS.  There were other drafts in which they actually were intro’d alive.

Logan is the psycho, Tyler is the nice guy.  I don’t think he’s turning it on and off, per say, it’s just that when he’s in killing mode, it’s Logan, and in picking up mode, it’s Tyler doing the work.

I personally like the repeated events with Maia…kind of shows that he’s done this before, and has it down quite well.

She’s a demon…a good demon, a protector of innocent women.  Sorry you didn’t like what Maia was…you are not alone.  I really like it though.

Actually kind of like your idea about the key having magical powers.  I actually briefly toyed with that, but threw it out because it completely gave things away, way too early.  It is a possibility though for sure.

Glad it worked for you in some ways, T Joe.  I appreciate your thoughts, man.  Thanks.

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Colkurtz8  -  March 24th, 2010, 3:14pm
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JonnyBoy
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Hey Jeff.

Right, I’ve read it. I’ve also read all of the reviews – and then I went back and listened to the iScript, reading it through again as I did so. I’m not sure how much there is left to say about what is, ultimately, a 26-page script written within certain parameters that is ‘finished’ in the sense that it has already been aurally produced. Still, you asked me to give you feedback, and since you’re a very active member of the community (and I know you to be a good writer), I have no problem obliging. So here I am.

Like I say, this has already been produced, so in a way it seems a bit pointless to suggest making changes now. The other thing is that I know you’re very set in your ways and confident in the decisions you take in writing – while your self-assuredness is a positive quality, it does limit the value of any feedback I give you. I will, however, make a couple of points:

- I didn’t actually have that much of a problem with Emma disappearing with Logan. It definitely COULD happen, and wasn’t unbelievable in my book. An eyebrow-raiser, certainly, and clearly a stupid decision even without the whole ‘he’s a sick serial killer’ thing, but not so implausible as to sink the script, at least for me. One thing I would say is you need to be clearer about who exactly this guy is, and how much of what he’s telling us is true. Does Logan ACTUALLY own a yacht? If he doesn’t, if this lie is part of his M.O.  – which I assume it is, since he uses the same lines on Mia – then I’d have liked to see him have more in the way of proof. Some faked photos of him on his yacht, a sailor’s hat somewhere in the car where Emma is bound to pick it up and comment on it...just some little detail that makes it clear Logan has put some effort into this deception. At the moment, the problem isn’t that Emma goes with him, it’s that she believes his bullshit so easily.

- I think you might remember in my review of Fade to White that I said I didn’t buy some of the ‘death scene’ dialogue. That kind of dialogue can very easily come across as false, or repetitive (“oh my god oh my god, please no etc.”). There’s a LOT of it here because this has a long torture scene. The visuals are suitably gory, but the dialogue isn’t at a par because I think it’s virtually impossible to write good, interesting death scene dialogue. There’s only so much variation you can put on someone begging for their life, you know?

- The whole ‘repeating everything exactly the same way’ thing that happens when Logan meets Maia...I understand what you’re trying to do, you’re trying to create tension by letting us know what Logan’s doing and wanting to say to Maia, “stay away from him!” But I don’t really think it works, unfortunately. It just comes off as repetitive, and not really in a good way. We know how things are going to turn out with Emma, and as you yourself have said you make no effort to conceal that. So when you ask us to go through pretty much the exact same sequence again, albeit a truncated version with a different girl, it does feel a little redundant. The dramatic irony doesn’t really come across. There’s a sequence in Pia’s 7WC script where the killer snoops around the morgue with a goth girl. That sequence works really well because we know what’s going to happen, but the dialogue is written in such a way that it becomes painful just how oblivious the girl is to the danger she’s putting herself in (it’s the best bit of her script, IMO). I don’t really know what changes you could make, just thought I’d say that it didn’t work for me.

- You don’t make enough of key revelations, instead glossing over them with throwaway lines of dialogue. Logan killed his parents, but you only briefly mention this. Maia is some sort of demonic Buffy type, a protector of innocent girls (although she has missed three separate killings), and yet again you pay no attention to this. Because you don’t weave these details into the script and instead just outright give them to us at seemingly arbitrary moments, they make the reader stop and go, “Wait, what?” I know you said this isn’t a character study, but if you don’t intend to explore these details all they are is distracting.

- How would Logan not have been picked up by the time Maia arrives? He’s done exactly the same thing three times, clearly in exactly the same location. Emma had two friends with her – would they not have reported her missing? That, to me, is a far greater believability issue than whether Emma would go off with Logan in the first place. I remember having similar reservations about Fade, too.

[DELETED TEXT]

----------------

EDIT - 7/02/2010: after giving it some thought, I've decided to retract the second half of my review. Not because I'm worried about hurting your feelings or anything like that - I know you're an adult about criticism - but because I've come to three conclusions:

1) it's not for me to tell you what to write or how to write it.
2) I've only read two scripts from you, which isn't enough to draw a definitive opinion about your overall work as a writer.  
3) Dec and Andrew made the point I wanted to make, so there's no point in me flogging a dead horse.

You asked for feedback on what you DID write, so I've kept that. Hope some of it's useful, see you around.

Jon


Guess who's back? Back again?

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JonnyBoy  -  February 7th, 2010, 12:50pm
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Hey Brian, much better late than never…I always say.  Sometimes, you cum late, you get the pick, of the litter.  Sorry…I’ve been drinking…again!

Hey, cool, thanks…glad someone likes this…and I mean that.  As I’ve said before, I really was happy how this turned out, but most really dislike it.  Oh well…give me your address…I’ll send you a Christmas card in 10 months!

Awesome…I too loved the “self scalping” idea.  I came up with it on a treadmill at the gym, after 8 or 9 other ideas didn’t pan out.  Thanks…glad it worked for you.  I’ve sure never seen it, and I think it’s quite a visual…as well as a cringe worthy thought.

Again, thanks, man, so glad that stuff worked for you.  I was laughing my ass off with the “little girl’s voice” and I too really think it’s disturbing and works.

Yeah, I’m afraid (afraid cause most in here don’t seem to like it) that I definitely have a certain style that some will like, and some will hate.  I love a slow build, I love lots of talk, and I love LOTS OF ACION, and crazy shit, and…I guess…Deux es Machina, late entry character.  I guess I honestly can’t help myself.  That’s what I like, that’s what I want to write.

Yeah, I hear you, Brian…I purposely telegraphed the set up and I actually did it for a reason…a reason that few seem to like.  I totally understand you and everyone else’s criticism here.  It was a choice I made, and for me, I like it.  Problem is , as I’ve said before, is that with this simple genre I went for, any attempts at “shielding” the true “plot” is just about impossible.  I actually wanted you to “know” (or think you knew) what was going to play out, and then I wanted to shock you with the intensity of how it actually did play out.  You know, as graphic and brutal as this may be, until page 22, there’s almost literally no onscreen violence. Yes, there are dead bodies, and yes, there is a rather graphic “nipple bite”, but other than that…nothing.

Again, with Maia, IMO, if I tried to set her up as just someone else, it would have been painfully obvious…way too many movies try to do this.  I wanted to stay away from that.  I wanted you to have an inkling that maybe…Maia would be different.  Yeah, maybe, again, bucking that fucking system, and introing a Deus Ex Machina character too late for the books, but IMO, completely seriously, it flowed in with the very linear plot line perfectly.  


Finally someone agrees with me about Emma and anyone else taking off with someone they just met.  It really does happen way more than most realize, I guess.  In my world, it’s no big deal, but most just don’t agree.  As per Emma’s friends, they definitely did report her missing, and yes, they also described Logan as best as they could remember.  The thing about a Packers football game is that everyone kind of looks the same when everyone has on a packers jersey, and alcohol is involved. In my rewrite, Logan will have a different car the 2nd time and also pick her up at a different location.

Thanks again, Brian, totally appreciate your feedback.
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mcornetto
Posted: February 8th, 2010, 12:12am Report to Moderator
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Hey Jeff,

Gave a listen to your script.  I've been doing all of these via the iScripts because they are there and the most visible rendition of what you have created.

I thought this was a really good iScript.  The guy that read it did a great job, especially with Bert's Tanis.

Your prose is definitely improving.  Some parts of this were beautifully written.   I think this was in your own style of storytelling and therefore a great addition to the Soulshadows series.  

That being said I thought the story was pretty predictable. And I think you needed to add some more suspense toward the beginning.  Even if it's just a mutilated body flopping to the floor.  

Mix it up a bit more with the boys - maybe more than one of the characters go home with a boy and  not just Emma.  If another one of her girlfriends did something similar then that would sort of justify what Emma did.  Follow both Emma and the other girlfriend so we don't know which is going to get it.  

Maia needs more than just weird teeth.  I'm not sure what, just more.  And furthermore her appearance and behaviour was incongruous to her function.  

And while it was a good script, those are my thoughts on where it needs improvement.

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JonnyBoy  -  February 8th, 2010, 12:42am
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Posted: February 10th, 2010, 5:57pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Jonny, sorry for the late reply.  I had it half finished and lost it somehow…then I saw that you retracted a bunch of your comments…wish you would have left them in there, as I appreciate any and all feedback, and love giving my take back on it as well.  So, let’s go!

Really glad to hear that you read it twice and also listened to it.  That’s totally cool. I think the reader for iscripts did a pretty good job.  Although it may be a “finished” script, there’s always room for improvements, and I’m already pretty sure what corrections will be made to get this to where I think it needs to be.

Although I may not always agree with others critiques of my work or any other work, I always listen and take everything in.  Differing viewpoints are what make the world go round…and round…and…

Glad you could buy into Emma’s decision to go with Logan, as well as the other 2 girls who did the same thing, and made that fateful decision, which ultimately, lead to their demise.  I’m still very surprised so many couldn’t understand it or buy into it.

As to who Logan really is, we don’t know that, and I didn’t want to go into any greater detail.  For the record, pretty much everything he told the girls up front was a lie.  No, he does not own a yacht, but then again, he never said he did.  He said it was his Dad’s.  Yes, it is definitely his M.O., and IMO, it’s quite effective.  He doesn’t go around bragging about himself in any way.  He says things very innocently…and differently.  The way he plays up his parents and their relationship is something that you don’t see too often…especially in a first meeting.  Kids today don’t act like it’s cool to be close with their parents, and because of this, people (girls) tend to trust him and believe what he’s saying, as he just comes across as being “different”.

As to “death scene” dialogue, you’re probably correct.  That’s probably because in a scene such as this (or any such death scenes) these are the things that are most likely going to come out of the victim’s mouth.  Cliché?  Repetitive?  Maybe so, but realistic, IMO, as well.  So, yeah, I hear ya here for sure.

You are obviously not alone in not liking the “repeating” meeting with Maia.  As I have said a few times, in an earlier draft, Emma actually didn’t die, and survived long enough for Maia to rescue her. So, yes, I didn’t try to hide what was most likely going to go down with her, but by not showing her actual death, I did want to leave things open until we got back down to that basement.  I understand what you’re saying and why it didn’t work for you.

Sorry you felt that some key revelations were nothing more than distracting.  I don’t really understand that, but if that’s how you felt, then that’s how you felt.  IMO, these revelations are what they are, and nothing more needed to be said about them.  When Logan tells Emma that he killed his parents for their money, he’s merely letting her (and the readers) know that he’s definitely whacked and is capable of anything…other than probably remorse or mercy.  As to Maia telling Logan what she is, it’s kind of the exact same thing, only the opposite…she too is not going to be concerned with remorse or mercy, when she’s doing what she does.  Maia comes right out and tells Logan that “she’s not always on time, but God knows, she tries”.  I would pretty much sum this up by saying super heroes, cops, doctors, anyone involved with “saving the day”, aren’t always going to be able to actually save the day, every day, every time.  She may be superhuman, but that doesn’t mean that she’s always successful.

In my rewrite, Logan will be in a different car, in a different spot, when he picks up (or is picked up) by Maia.  Kaylee and Hannah were picked up alone, so there weren’t any witnesses at all.  No bodies have been found and really, no signs of foul play.  The first and only witnesses at all are Madison and Alyssa.  As I’ve said a few times, when everyone is wearing the same thing, and there are literally many, many thousands of people all doing the same thing, and lots of alcohol is involved, describing what someone looks like isn’t going to be very exact.

I remember reading your post before you chose to delete this next section, but it’s vague in my memory.  Something about always wanting to buck the system makes my writing suffer because of it?  Not sure, but I wish you would have kept it so I could respond.

So, on to your 3 conclusions…

1)  Agreed, we all get to make that call on our own.  Sounds like you don’t like what I choose to write as well as how I choose to write it.

2)  Agreed again, but I think you’ve actually read at least 4 scripts from me.  You can draw any conclusions you think makes sense, Jonny.  That’s your call and we all call ‘em as we see ‘em.

3)  Well, I’ve responded to Dec and Andrew, and I think we’re all clear on where we stand and why we choose to stand there.  Many writers follow the advice of those they believe in, and that makes perfect sense.  Others just aren’t followers, and I think that’s cool as well.

Appreciate your honesty here, Jonny, and don’t ever feel that you can’t say exactly what you’re thinking to me or about me.  I have no problems with it at all.  As always, your feedback is very helpful and I appreciate all of it…the good, the bad, and the fucking ugly.

Thanks, man.  Take care.
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big lew
Posted: February 12th, 2010, 8:51pm Report to Moderator
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Jeff

Long time since we talked. I haven't been on the boards for quite awhile. Heard that you had a new script in Soul Shadows. I really, really liked Key To My Heart. Well done, lad!  I both read and listened to the script -- both times very enjoyable. Terrific work.

I looked at some of the comments on the discussion board, but have not been able to read all 80-something comments and your get-backs.

I liked the entire underlying idea of the story, the set-up and ending bookends, the character development of Tyler and all the girls, the Tyler/Logan surprise and very natural and convincing dialog.

Regarding the dialog: I noticed that some comments described the dialog as a bit cliched, but I didn't really hear it that way.  On screen it would play more as a part of Tyler's slick and smooth scam. Also, when your head is nailed to the wall and somebody is carving their initials in your breasts -- I think the victim would say things that are pure and simple outbursts, "you mother f'er!" Doesn't need to be clever, just true to the situation.

I do have a few story beat suggestions that may be worth your consideration, such as:

-- Rather than Emma falling so hard and so fast for Tyler, let her resist the temptation at first and have some concerns while her girlfriends reinforce her instincts.

-- Have her tell her friends if she's not comfortable leaving the restaurant with Tyler, she'll call them to pick her up.

-- But, let the turning point be in the restaurant when he gives her the key to his heart and that melts her resistance and makes her comfortable to finally gush a little.

-- When Tyler is talking to his father on the phone, let him say that his father (a cop) mentioned they caught the kidnapper.  At this point we have no reason to believe that he isn't actually talking to his father and telling the truth.

-- When Emma is in the dungeon, let her almost escape or kick Logan in the balls so he passes out, and when he comes to his vengeful and more extreme torturing of her would further heighten the tension and make us squirm even more.

-- When it's payback time, why have Maia cut Logan's face? If Logan mutilated the girls' breasts how about cutting off his balls, even if we don't see it.  She could humiliated him even more by showing him his balls.

-- Maybe even take it up another notch:  with three tortured girls, so far the payback is only 2(balls) to 3 dead girls. That leaves one more thing to remove to settle the score, 3-to-3. Wonder what that could be?

Once again, Jeff, nice job with Key To My Heart.

Over and out.
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Dreamscale
Posted: February 16th, 2010, 6:40pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Michael, thanks for the listen and feedback…much appreciated.  Sorry for taking so long to reply, but the OWC has kept me busy.

Glad you liked it…thanks!  I agree that the iscripts guy did a god job with the read and the majority of the dialogue.

Yeah, some have said that I ventured out of Soul Shadows territory, but IMO, each writer should bring their own style into the series.  Glad it worked for you.

As to the predictability factor, I hear what you’re saying, and others have said the same thing. I wasn’t going for any misdirection in terms of Logan or even Emma.  What I wanted to do was deliver things a bit differently than you probably were expecting, in terms of violence, brutality, and shocks.  Also, if you caught it, there wasn’t any onscreen violence until Maia shows up, which is a bit different for this type of genre.

I have toyed with the idea of starting out in the basement with Kaylee still alive, but not show anything else…other than the terror in her eyes.  I decided against it because I thought it telegraphed things a bit too much, and I wanted the initial basement scene to hit hard and come without any foreshadowing.  Hostel did this and it worked well, but using it again, IMO, would be a little too close to home.

I hear what you’re suggesting with the other girls.  The first draft had info that told us that Madison and Alyssa both had boyfriends already and Emma was very single.  It got axed due to page constraints as well as it running too long in background and chatting. Makes sense though for sure.

Not sure what you mean exactly regarding Maia.  Basically, she’s just beautiful evil, personified.

Thanks again, as always, your advice is solid.
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Baltis.
Posted: February 27th, 2010, 12:01am Report to Moderator
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Not in a position to stick around the boards and offer reviews to people n' stuff but I had a couple of your scripts sitting on my desktop for sometime and needed to get to them... Granted this one wasn't one of them but a read is a read and a review is a review.  

So, I liked the flow and set up to the story.  I'm a sucker for old EC comics and this defiantly had that vibe to it.  A little more Tales From the Darkside maybe... All the same.  But with those, both comic and adaptation alike, you're subject to a slew of hit and miss material and stories that seemingly don't go anywhere.

It's a fine line to walk when dealing in shorts...  Out of the 120+ screenplays I've written, 85% of them are short stories.  30 - 40 - 60 pages in length.  So I relate well with what you've done here.   I see you've had 6 pages of reads and reviews and all that but truthfully none of their opinions really matter to me so I seldom read the opinions of others... Unless it's of my work and that's usually just to tell them they're wrong if they didn't like it and right if they did.  

Moving along, I'm not at all familiar with "Soul Shadow" or the series it represents... I see that it has a radio read but don't have the time to sit back and listen to it.  Basically, I'm going into this missing the 1st one, I suppose, and not knowing anything at all about it. So to me, and forgive me if credit isn't distributed equally, this is your script.

As far as stories go... This isn't one I'd be keen on watching.  I have a huge distaste for exploitation films and the like.  Coffee, Last House on The left, The Hills have eyes, Don't Mess With my Sister, House On the Edge of the Park, I spit on Your grave... And a slew of others, hell... even Toxic Avenger ranks among these.  And moving into newer territory are the remakes of LHOTL and HHE and so forth and so on... Saw, Hostel... none of those movies interest me.  Torture movies aren't my thing, basically.  

So I'm going to look at just the content and the writing.   As always you write very clear... Even with the "we" and "moving through" stuff, it's never a distraction.  Even with the "super" of the title... none of it screams clunky and is well laid out.  So, while I personally wouldn't use them, you've shown that you can use them effectively.  That's good.

The dialouge was tight and cohesive throughout.  Each character, Logan, of course, had their own voice.  The weakest being Mia, unfortunately,..  The reasons for this are, she's a demon and well... Demons can be very tricky to write for without going into Wisconsin Cheese land "no pun intended".  An amalgamation of a slew of iffy dialouge led me this disicion, by the way.

for instance... And Logan even gets a little Homoerotic here.

LOGAN
Yeah, it is. Maia, you're gorgeous.
I can't believe how much I'm attracted
to you. I'm not usually very good
at this stuff...seriously.

Maia takes a swig of her beer, licks her red lips.

MAIA
You're not, huh? I don't know about
that. But I've got to say that I'm
pretty attracted to you, too.


c'mon... Really?  Well, when in Wisconsin I suppose.   But more importantly some of her actions towards the end really had me on the fence... It's one thing to do something with a swift decisive action but once the one liners start to fly it gets very, very janky.

It flaps up and down, as he tries to speak.

MAIA
What's a matter? Cat got your tongue?

Blood flows freely down Logan's convulsing body. His eyes
blink, scan back and forth, left to right...wide with terror.

MAIA (CONT'D)
You gave me the key to your heart...I
want to see if it actually fits. Or
were you lying about that, as well?


And there were more instances... I guess every since Freddy, a demon so to speak, started spouting out one liners things went down hill very fast for me and demons in film.  No fault of your own, believe me.  It's a tough sale to write good convincing dialouge for a tounge in cheek being at times.

As far as descriptions go... ACE.  Everything is nailed down here and permant.  There is no rocking back and forth when speaking of the foundation you build your scripts on.

The gore was plenty.  The depictions were vivid and the pain was felt... I guess for a script of this magnitude, one that isn't trying to change the world or set it on fire, you succeeded well.  And, let's be honest here, not every script has to do those things.  Some of the best scripts in the world are ones that walk a path, tell their story and let it ride...
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Tommyp
Posted: February 27th, 2010, 9:28pm Report to Moderator
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Jeff,

I liked this, but I think you took it too far in some aspects such as the gore, and not far enough in other aspects, such as Logan and his personalities.

I also thought we didn't need to see the whole pick up thing done for so long with Maia. We know Logan does the same routine with lot's of girls, we don't need to see it all again.

I know this is supernatural, but I would have liked Maia to be human and have planned to take Logan out for a while now, after one of her friends got tortured by him.

In terms of getting this made... you don't have many characters which is good, but there is lot's of gore and it pushes the boundaries, so I reckon if it was made, some stuff would have to be taken out (which you would hate, obviously).

Writing is fine as usual, dialogue natural, and with a rewrite would be a really good script. Good stuff.


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Dreamscale
Posted: March 2nd, 2010, 5:11pm Report to Moderator
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Big Lew, what up, bud?  Sorry for being so late in my response.  Thanks for the read and feedback. You make a lot of good points as always.

Glad you liked this and I appreciate the read and listen.  It’s funny how differently things come off when you listen to them as opposed to reading them…or both at the same time even.

Thank you for the compliments on the story and dialogue.  Some didn’t like the dialogue at all, but I’m with you here, brother!

All your ideas are good. I especially like the one about Logan telling Emma that the killer has been abducted.  That makes a lot of sense!

I didn’t want Emma to make an escape.  I wanted it to play out as plain old brutality, with little hope of any escape.  I hear you here though.

I considered Maia taking off Logan’s nads, but thought it was a little bit cliché, as it was done this way in Hostel 2.  I went for something you don’t see very often and thought it was more effective and horrific.

Thanks again, Lew.  Hope to see you around these boards more often.  Take care!
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Dreamscale
Posted: March 3rd, 2010, 4:54pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Balt, thanks for popping in and giving this a look.  Your feedback is always appreciated and respected.

Soul Shadows is basically an anthology, much like Tales from the Crypt.  Tannis is our Crypt Keeper, and she begins and ends each episode.  Bert writes all of the Tannis parts, based on the script that is submitted.


I hear ya about this genre not being your cup of tea…many feel the same way.  I, on the other hand, love Hostel and Hostel 2.  Most of the torture porn genre from there got very weak and were basically all plays on the same theme.  I tried to change that up here and give it a fresh face, and a few (hopefully) unexpected twists.

Thanks for the compliment on clear writing.  The “we see” and other such stuff is from Bert, and all his Tannis parts are written this way, going back to the inaugural episode of the first season.


Glad the dialogue and characters worked well for you.  I definitely tried to give everyone their own voice and quirks.  Many have not liked Maia at all, and I agree she’s a tough character to pull off.  I didn’t want to develop her anymore than I did, and my intent was to keep her rather ambiguous and mysterious.

You’re right about throwing out some 1 liners from Maia in the end.  I don’t know…maybe it goes all the way back to Freddy Krueger, who IMO, really started them up.  I thought they were effective, but many don’t seem to like them, so point well taken.

Funny, I really like the, “What’s a matter?  Cat got your tongue?” line, but it has been brought up before.  I like to use old clichéd idioms and the like, but I always try and use them in a fresh way…or disturbing way.  Can’t seem to help myself…

Cool, glad the descriptions and depictions worked.  Funny, your comment “…and the pain was felt” is something I was really going for.  I wanted this to be brutal, real, and intense, but I didn’t want to go over that fine line that most horror flicks go over…just too over the top and out of place.  The only real onscreen violence starts when Maia gets her hand skewered by Logan’s knife.  From there on out, I went for it all the way…no holding back at all.

Thanks again, Balt.  I’m glad this worked for you even though it’s not the type of script you usually appreciate.

Take care, man!
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Dreamscale
Posted: March 8th, 2010, 11:07pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Tommy P, thanks man, I appreciate the read and comments.  Sorry to be so late in getting back to you, but a lots going on, including a big move in less than 2 weeks from AZ to WA.  As always, I want to respond to your feedback, and give you my thoughts and let you in to what I was after here.

Glad you liked this.  I purposely took it as far as I possibly could in terms of brutality and the like. The gore is actually fairly minimal, and only comes into play in the last few pages.  I know it doesn’t seem that way, but it’s something I consciously strived for.  The entire purpose here is to take things to another level. I really wasn’t that interested in exploring Logan as a character, in terms of the why’s.

Many are in agreement with you about the near duplication of the “pickup scene”.  But again, I wanted to nail it down, that this is how he rolls, so to speak. There are some subtle differences, and they’re actually meant to give you a little heads up that this isn’t going to go down the way it has in the past.

Originally, Maia was going to be human, but I decided that I needed a supernatural element, and I also liked how this played out.

“In terms of getting this made”, I would only want it made for what it is, and that’s a brutal, horrific gore ride.  It always surprises me when people say certain things can’t be filmed in a hard R movie.  They can.  They push boundaries, and that’s what I’m always after.

Thanks, Tommy, as always, your opinion means a lot to me, and I’m glad you seemed to like this overall.

Hope all is well, my friend!  Late.
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Ryan1
Posted: June 8th, 2010, 4:52am Report to Moderator
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Jeff,

I liked a lot of this script.  The insidious traps the killer sets, the graphic death scenes, and ultimately, the payoff in the end.  It did come at the cost of predictability, however.  This script was sort of a trade off of chills for hardcore gore.

Very clever setting and perfect hunting ground for a serial killer.  A tailgate at a packers game.  Everyone's drinking, everyone's happy and Packer fans are generally regarded as the most harmless in the NFL.

I did spot a couple of passive sentences right from the get go:

Tailgate parties of all sizes are in full swing.
Traffic is at a standstill for miles around Lambeau Field.

I'm not sure if you needed three girls at the beginning.  Because they all looked and sounded(even dressed) alike.  I think two might have worked better there as you could have given more personality to the characters.

It's always risky to intro a main character so deep into a script.  Maia appears a full 16 pages in.  I was a little fuzzy on what she actually was.  When I read the line "She smiles, exposing sharp white, canine teeth",  I immediately thought, Holy sh*t she's a werewolf!  So, I'm still a little fuzzy on what she actually was.  She says she is a protector of girls, so is she superhuman?  Aside from the teeth, it was hard to tell.  You say she frees her hand from these shackles with a powerful thrust, so I'm guessing she must have incredible strength.  But if this is the case, you might want to make that more clear, like the metal shackles shatter from her sheer power, or something.

I did like how you got inventive with the bondage.  I don't recall ever seeing superglued hair and scalping put together like that.  That was something.  

The main problem with the script, IMO, is the lack of surprises.  Immediately, when we read that the character's name is Logan, and he introduces himself as Tyler, we know this dude is a killer.  So, the bonk on Emma's head just didn't have the same dramatic shock it would have if it came totally out of the blue.

You repeat the exact same paragraphs on page 12 and 21, only with a name substituted:

To her right, KAYLEE, 24, lies on the concrete floor, naked
and bloody.  Savage, blood clotted wounds are all that are
left of her breasts.  Her hair and scalp hang from the wall
above her....Dried blood streaks down to the floor.

I would have liked a little more distinction and description to Emma's death.

Overall, I did like this.  I think it could be improved if you disguised Logan's true identity better, and if you spent less time on Emma and more on Maia.  Maia is the truly interesting character here, and I wanted to know more about her and what exactly she is.

Good read.




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Dreamscale
Posted: June 8th, 2010, 11:08am Report to Moderator
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Thanks for the read, Ryan.  Glad you seemed to like it.

Good catch on the passive sentences early on.  For me, I don't know if I really have a problem with these two, as they're not the old "ing" passive, but you are correct...they're definitely passive.

As for the Logan/Tyler debate, keep in mind that in a filmed version, you wouldn't have the luxury of knowing Tyler's "real" name up front.  But then again, I didn't really try and conceal anything, as I gave the Logan thing up in my log line.  I decided early on that there wasn't any reason to conceal this, and that it was pretty obvious what was going to go down.  I hope the "way" it went down was at least a shock.

What I wanted to come as a surprise or shock was the brutality of Logan's ways, as well as Maia's character.

The 3 girls thing is so (in my mind at least) it makes sense that when Emma decided to leave with Logan, she didn't leave a friend all by herself.  There is some back story that got cut for page length reasons...the other 2 girls both have boyfriends, while Emma is new to the area and very single.

I seem to like breaking conventions, and introing Maia so late is definitely one of those examples.  Others wanted to see and know more of her as well, but I decided to not give much info about her origins, or who/what she really is.  Just for the record, she is what she says she is...a protector of sorts...a good demon, so to speak.

You are completely correct that there was a trade off between surprises/chills and gore.  I wanted to push the envelope here as far as I could and do it in ways that haven't been done before.  You may not have noticed or realized, but other than some dead bodies, there isn't any gore or graphic violence at all until the last few pages.  It comes off as very difficult to stomach, and very, very brutal, but all of that wasn't based on visuals until the end, when Maia gets down to her business.

There are numerous examples of exact passages throughout.  This was done consciously.  Some didn't like this...some did.  I understand your concern here about wanting more, or at least different info on Emma's demise, but I really didn't want to even show it, as in an earlier draft, Emma actually survived, and was rescued by Maia.  So, even though it seems quite clear that Emma got killed, she actually could have survived for awhile until Maia came along.

I was trying something old wrapped up in a new box.  Some like it, some don't.  I understand that for sure.

Thanks again, man!  Take care.  
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rc1107
Posted: April 13th, 2011, 1:15am Report to Moderator
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Hey Jeff,

I got a little confused at first.  When I came to the first page of the thread and it said 'Soul Shadows II', and saw bert's name in there too, I thought I must've clicked the wrong link for the search.  I've never read any of the Soul Shadows before and didn't know if I needed any prior knowledge from previous Soul Shadows.  I understand what's going on now, though.  Kind of like a Tales from the Crypt, thing.  Pretty cool idea, actually.

Well, you have found someone in me who loves exploitation films (for the most part.  I hate it when some stuff gets over the top and just downright comical.  I don't like that.  I like it when it's handled well and more seriously.)  And I guess I also like what people have come to refer to as torture porn.  I'm really not a sadistic person at heart, but I enjoy feeling really uncomfortable moments in stories.  Stories that make your stomach churn and grind and wish that it would just get over and done with.  If it's done right, I think those uncomfortable moments can be more horrifying than any monster one can muster.

This story definately works for me in that aspect, in that you push the visuals and descriptions past what the average audience is used to.

Also, I like the way you get there.  First, you put us smack dab in the middle of the day at a tailgate party at a crowded football game and build it up a little bit slowly.  Who in the hell is going to guess how sick this was going to get?

Yes, we knew something wasn't right with Logan right off the bat, (I mean kickoff), but it's easy to tell that it's not really important that what we think is going to happen happens, it's what you do after you get Logan alone with Emma and how far you push it that ends up being the surprising thing.  And of course that's what makes this story different and separate and stand out in other people eyes and it's what makes it appealing to me.

You've read some of my scripts so you know I won't get into any technical issues for formatting as I'm so outdated on rules it's not even funny.  (I'll be paying a visit to Barnes & Noble sometime this week for a look at some NEW screenwriting format books.)  I'll just say your story got across to me just fine and I understood everything without having to backtrack at all to understand what was going on.

(However, I did backtrack through the script to check some dates, though, because at first it seemed like Green Bay had four home games in a row (which would never happen in the NFL unless you're the Pittsburgh Steelers because they get whatever they fucking want cause they're all over Goodell's dick) but after checking the dates again, it matched up.  Two home games, two away games, then a back and forth.  You were good there.)

If I had to say one thing that irked me about the script, I'd say it have to be the dialogue, but it's because  I hate the way teenagers and twenty-something's talk, anyway.  So you nailed the way they talk perfectly, even with all the cheesy lovey-dovey talk, people do talk like that when they meet somebody they meet and have instant puppylove, but it still irked me.

There were a few humorous lines when Logan was talking to Emma after she was glued to the wall.  "Can't really reveal the secret recipe, or... well, you know... I'd have to kill you."  I laughed at that.  I thought it was funny.  "Didn't even realize it was possible at first" also made me chuckle.

And oh yeah, I forgot there was even somebody named Maia who was supposed to be in this.  I forgot about the logline.  Honestly, you could probably take her out of the logline.  Actually, now that I think about it, I think you could lose the whole logline completely.  Woohoo!  Finally something I can criticize!  That was a horrible logline.  :-)  I think I saw you say in a post on Fade to White that you hate loglines and admitted you're terrible at them.  Lol, having already read the story and giving it a quick thought, maybe just a simple little 'The Packers are playing at home again' might work.  Wouldn't reveal anything about the story and there wouldn't be such an anticipation as to what Logan is going to do, and then the shock factor would be even less expected.

Like I said, I've never read any of the Soul Shadows before, so I don't know if there's a rule that the story has to have a supernatural element to it, but I think Maia would've worked better as a real person as opposed to a demon.  Honestly, I was hoping Maia would fuck him up even before Logan had a chance to whack her in the back of the head.  You said Logan's a pretty handsome guy, so I was hoping maybe Maia would go down on him while they're still in the Range Rover (maybe even while he was on the phone with his 'dad') and then all of a sudden, she just starts gobbling his dick and tears out his pubic hair (kind of a retribution for him scalping the other girls) and she unleashes her insanity first on him.

But, it also works as it is now and there's still some interesting visuals, especially with her digging the key into his chest and grinding at his valves.

So in finishing, I thought this was really entertaining (of course I'm biased because of the whole exploitation thing).  It read very brisk and crisp, even with a slow build-up in the beginning. (Which as we talked about before, I think, you know I'm a big fan of slow builds).

Everything I've said so far is just referring strictly to the script.  I haven't listened to the recorded version of this yet, which I'll probably do when I lay down to go to sleep in a little bit.  I've never listened to one and I'm kind of curious as to what it sounds like.

Anyway, thanks for the entertaining read, Jeff.  Hope all is well with you and I'll be talking to you in a bit.

- Mark


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jwent6688
Posted: April 13th, 2011, 1:16pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from rc1107
(However, I did backtrack through the script to check some dates, though, because at first it seemed like Green Bay had four home games in a row (which would never happen in the NFL unless you're the Pittsburgh Steelers because they get whatever they fucking want cause they're all over Goodell's dick) but after checking the dates again, it matched up.  Two home games, two away games, then a back and forth.  You were good there.)
- Mark


I'm a tried and true Steelers fan who lives in Cleveland. Cleveland sucks. They should build a bull dozer big enough to ram the entire city into lake Erie. After lebron left, its over for us. Fuck him too.

Just wanted to chime in...

James



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bert
Posted: April 13th, 2011, 1:32pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from rc1107
I got a little confused at first.  When I came to the first page of the thread and it said 'Soul Shadows II', and saw bert's name in there too, I thought I must've clicked the wrong link for the search.  I've never read any of the Soul Shadows before and didn't know if I needed any prior knowledge from previous Soul Shadows.


Tanis is the narrator for the series, and she opens and closes each episode based on the "item" that episode centers around.  In this case it was a key.

Each episode centers around one such item, and Tanis is a collector of sorts.

The episodes themselves are solely the work of each individual author.  I did not do any revisions or editing to those. And the Tanis segments, for better or worse, were mine alone.

Just to clarify, for those unfamiliar with the history of this series.


Hey, it's my tiny, little IMDb!
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Dreamscale
Posted: April 13th, 2011, 4:40pm Report to Moderator
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Hey mark, thanks so much for digging this up.  This has always been a favorite of mine.  As I mentioned in a PM, it's a polarizing script for sure.  Those that dislike the "torture porn" genre seem to hate it, but those that like it or can at least handle it, tend to like it.

I'm like you, I actually love the genre, although the vast majority of entries in the genre are bad...really bad.  Hostel and Hostel 2 are 2 of my favorite movies.  Both incredibly well done, and the original, obviously a classic, in that it inspired an entirely new genre, although, in reality, I think it actually started in the 70's...either way, it accounted for 100's of copies and retreads in the years hat followed it.

I'm really glad you liked it.  I spent months planning this thing out, down to the exact details of how it would play out.  The actual writing only spanned a few days, but, man, I'll tell you I spent so many days in the gym, creating scenes and visuals in my head.  Maia is actually inspired by a hot as shit chick from my gym.  She had this incredibly exotic, sexy look to her, and she looked like she could kick 90% of the buff dude's asses at the gym.  She tended to stick to herself and rarely even chatted with anyone...and when she did, I could see how she quickly disassociated herself from them.

My parents live in Door County, WI, and Logan's house is inspired by theirs, all the way to the walking sticks in a metal container, next to the font door.

Although i am pretty familiar with Green bay and Lambeau Field, I did alot of research to get the details down right.

Logan's "imprisonment" methods and the "scalping" concept were the final pieces I was missing, and once they came to me, everything went down on paper.

I wanted to leave Maia's true nature ambiguous, but hopefully you got what it was she is, and does.  Many complained that she should have been human, but I just didn't see how that could work in a reality kind of way.  I like keeping ti real, within the world I create, and I really like how she came off.

Thanks again, bro!  take care.
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wonkavite
Posted: April 16th, 2011, 7:07pm Report to Moderator
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Hey DS -

Read Key to My Heart.  Now, I'm no fan of torture porn.  But it's clean writing, very visual.  Interesting scalping gimmick - not something I've seen before.

Two main problems with the script.  One: the idea of the original girl falling for Logan so damned fast.  Maybe I run in more cynical circles, but *none* of my friends would get that gooey, that easily.

Then there's Maia's special powers.  There's no set up for it in the script, which really throws the ending out of wack. (Originally, I thought that this might be Part II of something else, with Maia as a continuing character that had been explained more fully elsewhere.  Then I realized that the "II" was part of a Tales of the Crypt type anthology, and that the story itself was stand alone.)

It think that KTMH could work for what it is - just not with such an out-of-left-field twist.  

My opinion: add in some explanation of her supernatural existence earlier on.  Or change her to a human out for revenge...with less supernatural powers.

Course, it's not as good as VaProd's work.  But then, what is?
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Dreamscale
Posted: April 17th, 2011, 11:37am Report to Moderator
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Hey Janet, thanks for much for the read and comments.  I really appreciate it.  Also appreciate the compliments.

Your 2 main concerns seem to be the same 2 concerns everyone has, and for the life of me, I just don't get it...not that I'm arguing or anything like that, cause I'm really not.

I've responded over and over with my feelings on these 2 issues, but I'll do it 1 more time, since this is a long and old thread.

You'd be amazed how many times I've been involved in a situation where a girl falls for a guy immediately and opens herself up to potential problems by doing so.  Maybe it's harder to "see" in a written piece, compared to a filmed version, or real life, but given the right circumstances, and of course, the right people, it happens all the time, and many of those times involve completely (intentional) cheesiness.

Maybe I just run with a different circle?  

Your first point is duly noted though.

OK, so then we have Maia's "special powers", and again, so many people brought up similar comments.  Maia's special powers stem from her being who/what she is.  She's not even human, obviously.

For me personally, I don't like being told things up front because it spoils the surprise and the shock.  Everyone else seems to need to know through foreshadowing, which usually gives the entire thing away long before it should.

Or maybe I'm just the "deus ex machina" King.     I don't know.  People have been saying I use this "technique" often, but I always disagree.  I definitely understand what it is and how and why it can come off as ridiculous, but I don't see it in terms of my writing.

In terms of set up, there are subtle little hints that Maia is not like the other girls, but I definitely wanted the scene in the basement to come as a complete surprise.  This Soul Shadows series involves the supernatural in every script, so it's kind of an assumed thing, really (IMO), but then again, as I said, most readers mentioned something similar.

Again, I appreciate your time as I know this is a long "short".  Thanks again, Janet.
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leitskev
Posted: April 17th, 2011, 2:18pm Report to Moderator
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I read this last week when it appeared on the portal, and wrestled with whether or not to comment. If my review was not going to be constructive I thought I might be better off refraining.

Ok, first the good. It's well written, and one can fly through the pages. You know right away where the threat is, and that's ok, because it creates the desired tension. Logan's the killer, and we know that pretty much from the outset. So that creates the danger.

And I didn't have a problem with Emma going with him. I've seen it happen all the time in real life. Young girls take tremendous chances, and this guy is good looking and rich.  

I have two essential problems here, one minor, one not so, and both addressed by Jeff. First, there is no depth to Logan's character. Why does he kill? Is it misogyny? There isn't even a clue. Why does he keep the corpses around in the basement? Usually serial killers do something with the evidence, though they may save trophies. Rotting, smelly bodies in the basement could be a problem. I'm not trying to nitpick, and I know it's just a short, but there's quite a bit of conversation in the basement between Emma and Logan, seems there could be some clue to what drives him.

The second problem is the one most talked about. Maia. Who and what is she? I know you want to surprise the audience. Though to be honest, as with Logan, we suspect something different will happen with Maia, and as you say, this is a supernatural series, so we know something's coming. And I am ok with having a certain level of mystery, of leaving things open to speculation or for the reader/viewer to figure out. But IMO there has to be something. We can't just have this character drop in out of nowhere with absolutely no explanation as to what she is. Just too many questions left unanswered.

Actually, to be honest it bothers me a little that you didn't have any of these questions while writing it.  Maybe there was a time constraint. It just seems you could have either borrowed from some myth or legend, or created your own. It doesn't have to be some elaborate exposition of the creature, just a hint, a taste. All we have now is some kind of creature that was smart enough to figure out Logan was killing innocent girls, but dumb enough to get hit on the head and placed on the wall so that she was forced to scalp herself to kill him.

These problems did not exist in Unforgettable. Everything was explained by the end, and the motivations of the characters were clear and well developed. Some people had a little problem with the likability of the characters, but there was no problem with their depth. But we did see a similar problem with unanswered questions in White Women. So maybe the issue here is just time and space. Very understandable if so. If I could float a suggestion, it would be just to try to ask those questions, come up with some answers, and provide a few clues. Everything doesn't have to be neatly tied up, but I think the payoff for just a little bit more work will be large, and your audience will be freer to enjoy your effective writing and vivid images.


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Dreamscale
Posted: April 17th, 2011, 7:01pm Report to Moderator
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Kevin, thanks for another read, bro.  Totally appreciate the feedback.  IMO, you should never worry about negative feedback, and if you have something to say, by all means, say it.

Thank you for the compliments on the writing...you know I try.

Being a bartender, I'm glad you understand how things of this nature can take place and often do, in terms of chicks and guys hooking up quickly.

OK, your 2 issues...again, 2 that come up alot, especially the latter.

First of all, Logan - why does he do what he does and why don't I let you in on the details?

Well, why does anyone do what they do?  Why does Hannibal kill and eat people?  Why does Leatherface do what he does?  Why does Mick Taylor kill innocent kids in Wolf Creek?

Sure, there are answers and sometimes, a couple movies later, we even find out, but IMO, it doesn't matter, unless the script/movie takes on the angle of why.  This one doesn't, and doesn't want to.  It had nothing to do with time or page restrictions.  It's purely the way I wanted to write it and what I wanted to show and not show.  He's a crazy, sick fuck and he does say that.  For me, that's all I personally need to know.  The script and story has absolutely nothing to do with the why's of how he came to be like he is.  He's a killer, he killed his parents to get their money, now he's killing and sexually molesting innocent girls.  This is who he is and this is how he rolls.

Sorry this was a problem for you, but again, you are not alone, my friend.

OK, Maia again.  I've responded numerous times to this, so i won't say the same things again, but I will address your points.  In writing this, just like with Logan, the why's and other such questions weren't what I was interested in.  Initially, Maia was going to be human and have a reason for what she does, but being human and doing what I wanted her to do, didn't go hand in hand, thus, this Maia was born.

The idea is that Maia is a demon of sorts.  Mostly a good one, in that she takes out the scum of the earth that prey on innocent girls...and get away with it.  She may be superhuman, but that doesn't mean that she's perfect or can save everyone.  In fact, she can't and doesn't even get involved until things go "too far".

She was never in any danger with Logan.  She let him think he had another victim, only to fuck with him and give him more than a taste of his own medicine.  As she tells him, she knew about who he was and what he was doing all along, and her being "picked up" by him was all in the plan.

Again, none of this was because of time constraints or page constraints.  All personal and intentional decisions.

Unforgettable and Fade are much different animals and are intended to be.  They're also both features, so they have the room to be able to completely set everything up and tie it all together in a neat little package.  There's so much more going on in those scripts, where as this one, in particular, has its sights set on 1 thing and 1 thing only...graphic violence that is as cringe inducing as possible, wrapped up in a package that hopefully plays out differently than you've seen or read.  I wanted this to be controversial. I wanted it to be unpleasant.  I wanted to affect people in a way they haven't been before.

I often say things like, "Damn, I wish this movie would have...", and it seems that I'm no different, cause that's what's happening here.  And that's completely cool with me.  You and others like you were looking and hoping for something different than I intended on writing.

Thank you again, Kevin.  Your feedback means alot and I appreciate it.

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leitskev
Posted: April 17th, 2011, 7:32pm Report to Moderator
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Yeah, the first issue, Logan's character, I understand your explanation, and that's why I said this was a minor issue. I do agree that in this type of horror there often is no real explanation. And in fact, in real life, how often is there an explanation for a serial killer? They do what they do. So this was a minor issue for me. I only brought it up because I think if you can give some depth to his character, by explaining some of how he ticks, it makes the script/film so much better. And because the scene in the cellar, and in fact most of the scenes, are heavy in dialogue, there is a great opportunity to drop some clues to his character. So it's less the case of the script being lacking as a case of missed opportunity.

Regarding the second point, it seems you have the beginning of an explanation in these posts, so that could easily have been developed and put in the script. As I said, this story is not afraid of dialogue, so Maia could give an idea to her nature. She did slightly by saying she was late, or something like that I think. So what I'm saying is literally just a few words that hint of her demonic nature. Maybe she refers to another killer she has trapped in the past, something simple.

In fact, my entire criticism would be dealt with by a few dialogue lines by Maia, and perhaps even just one dialogue exchange earlier with Logan. So 5 to 10 dialogue lines tops, and problem solved,

My hesitation to post was more out of the notion that a review should be constructive. Even criticism is constructive if done right. Hopefully this helped some. I think from the feedback here and on White people really want story holes filled or explained, and it won't take much to fill those holes either.
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Dreamscale
Posted: April 17th, 2011, 8:13pm Report to Moderator
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I hear ya, Kev...I do.  IMO, any feedback, positive or negative is very helpful  I love it all.

You're right, peeps on SS seem to like having their I's dotted and their T's crossed, but I think you know I don't play that way in terms of how's and why's.  For me, the best type of movies are the ones that leave things open for interpretation.  I like ambiguity...it gives you something to think about, something to talk about.

Guess that's why I'm usually standing on my own little island or mountain top.  

That's OK with me, though, cause I kinda like it here...

Thanks again!

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JonnyBoy  -  April 17th, 2011, 8:46pm
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leitskev
Posted: April 17th, 2011, 8:33pm Report to Moderator
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While I watch the Celts, I'll add this: I like ambiguity too, or more accurately, I am ok with leaving things open to interpretation, to imagination. So I was not looking, in a story like this, for everything to be neatly explained. Just some clue. I think at the very least I want the writer to have all the explanation, even if he leaves it for us to figure it out. My sense was you didn't know much about Maia either. Does that make sense?
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Dreamscale
Posted: April 17th, 2011, 8:50pm Report to Moderator
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It does make sense, but I did and do know all about lovely Maia.  I really did when I wrote this.  When time's on my side, I'd never write something without knowing the details myself.  I'm just not like that...can't do it actually.  This script took a long time in terms of coming up with all the details...in my head at least.

I'm sorry ti doesn't appear that way.  It actually bums me out,  I'm always fine if someone doesn't get something, but when they literally think I didn't get it either, it's a problem in that something that i thought was apparent and clear, wasn't and isn't.

Damn those Celtics!!!!!!!  
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wonkavite
Posted: April 18th, 2011, 8:03am Report to Moderator
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Hey Jeff -

Not to gang up on Maia (especially when I've got a character similarly named in a different story.)  

But for me, the problem is similiar to when - at the end of a movie - everyone's being sucked into a vortex, and The Hero pulls out the special thinga-ma-gig that just HAPPENS to be a vortex killer.  And it's never even been mentioned throughout the entire film.  Just happens to have it in his pocket.  

It just feels...well, wrong.  And I feel tragically cheated.

Not gonna harp on it - and I'll emphasize that I enjoyed the clean flow of the writing itself - but I would've felt much more satisfied with the script if there had been some unifying theme that incorporated Maia's mythology from the very beginning!

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leitskev
Posted: April 18th, 2011, 11:01am Report to Moderator
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I think Maia could fix this in the final scene herself. For example, she tells Logan something like this: "During the Depression, this guy you used to kill woman by drowning them in his tub. Then one day I took my turn in his tub and sent him to a watery hell."

"And then there was that sick bastard in King Louis's court who used to skin his victims alive. His skin peeled like a banana while he begged for his life."

Just an idea. We would learn that she's a vindictive demon that has been around a long time.

And where, Janet, can I get a vortex killer? Home Depot?
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Dreamscale
Posted: April 18th, 2011, 11:27am Report to Moderator
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Hey Janet, thanks for jumping back in.

The scenario you just described here is classic deux es machina...and as I said, I totally understand what it is and why (like in this example) it doesn't work and also why it pisses people off.

BUT...

I don't see it being anything remotely like this though...not even close, actually.  Check this out and tell me what I'm missing or where I'm going wrong.

The entire script is roughly 25 1/2 pages.  Bert's intro and outro are roughly 3 1/2 pages.  So, I've got roughly a 22 page script.

The first portion with Emma runs roughly 14 1/2 pages, or 65%.  Maia's portion runs roughly 7 1/2 pages, or 35%.  Maia's powers are revealed completely about 3 pages later, but there are several little hints once she's intro'd.

For me, what takes place on Page 21 shows that this isn't a deux es machina introduction or ending.  It's when Logan walks into the torture room, and sees Maia wide awake, smiling at him...then, she's the one who says exactly what Logan usually says to his victims, "Mornin' Sunshine."  Then, her powers are slowly revealed, but it's obvious right there that not only is she not in any fear or trouble, she has the upper hand and things are about to go very badly for Logan.

Do you really think this is deux es machina?  Would you really prefer knowing earlier what Maia was?  If so, the entire 2nd setup would be a waste.  And, there'd be no surprise/shock factor when things go down on the next page.

Let me know what you think.  Thanks for playing along.
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Dreamscale
Posted: April 18th, 2011, 11:29am Report to Moderator
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EDIT - Kevin (thought it was Janet who posted this...OOOPS!!!), I didn't see your post while I was writing mine.  I hear what you're saying and am not opposed to a few lines like that, actually.  It's a good idea.


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JonnyBoy  -  April 18th, 2011, 12:14pm
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wonkavite
Posted: April 18th, 2011, 7:28pm Report to Moderator
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Hi Jeff -

I agree, Maia's supernatural origin isn't *pure* deux es machina - in that it doesn't happen at the very end, and there's a little bit of foreshadowing.  

But you mention yourself that she comes in only seven-eight pages from the end.  That gives you basically 2/3rds of the script, during which there's no reason to believe that there are supernatural critters in your imagined world.  Just sociopaths.

So it still feels like a "cheat" to me when the gears switch, and Maia's vengeful purpose takes centerstage.

Honestly, I'm not sure how best to incorporate these elements earlier, without giving away too much.  I'm sure it's possible - just nothing's popping up in my brain right now as a suggestion.  But to do so would IMHO make the story more cohesive and the ending more satisfying.

That said, still an easy to read script - as far as scalping, breast mutilating psychopaths go.  

BTW  - for Kevin: you can get vortex killers at Lowes.  They're half off on Wednesday.
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leitskev
Posted: April 18th, 2011, 7:36pm Report to Moderator
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I'm not going anywhere near a Lowes; tornado magnet!

Janet, what about my idea of having Maia say something like above. That lets us know in just a few words that she's been around ages(demonic hint) and what she does. She turns the tables on the killer.

I'm sure Jeff has no big plans for this script, so this more just an exercise for us so that gives us ideas for situations like this in the future.
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wonkavite
Posted: April 18th, 2011, 7:47pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Kev -

I'd still feel that the explanation comes in too late in the game.

But I agree.  This is a fun little script - no need to pick at it overly much.  

Better to sit back and, um, enjoy the scalping...?
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leitskev
Posted: April 18th, 2011, 7:55pm Report to Moderator
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The explanation has to come late, doesn't it? I mean, unless we have Maia at the original Packers game, and she does something demonic, like throw a football a couple hundred yards. In other words, he shows her on the hunt, and having some special power.
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wonkavite
Posted: April 19th, 2011, 8:03am Report to Moderator
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Hi Kev -

The full explanation definitely has to come late.  Otherwise, whole twist ending gets ruined.

But I just can't get over (for me) the fact that the script seems to happen in two separate worlds.  The first 2/3rds are "real world" - the last 1/3 suddenly jumps into a supernatural dimension that didn't exist before.

But I'd better stop with the critique at this stage.  Or Maia's coming after me.

Cheers to Jeff for putting up with us dissecting the script...
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Dreamscale
Posted: April 19th, 2011, 1:14pm Report to Moderator
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Thanks you two.  I love and good back and forth, especially when it's all constructive!  

Kevin, as I said, I really like your idea of a few lines from Maia, telling of past deeds.

IMO, it, or anything like this, has to come late, since Maia's not intro'd until late, and she's not going to be coming in earlier, either.

As fro Maia...she is what she is, and none of her supernatural powers are hand picked to overcome Logan.  What I mean by this is in response to Janet's comments about deux es machina, and the vortex killer.  It's why I don't see this as that type of scenario at all.  To me, an item, like the vortex killer, or even something so simple as any old regular item a character carries with them always, and may be intro'd early on, is deux es machina.  People think if they set it up early, it's all cool, but IMO, it's far from it, as it's so obvious that it's going to come into play later, and so foolish that it even exists in the first place.

Janet, you just said that you're confused a little over how the first 2/3 seem real and serious, yet the last 1/3 jumps into a different world.  I see what you're saying here for sure, but I don't see how that's a bad thing or an issue.  The tone is the same throughout, which is dark, violent, and unrelenting.  Yes, we are introduced to a supernatural creature in Maia, but again, the entire Soul Shadows series deals with the supernatural, so I don't think it should really come as a surprise.

Here's one of my many crazy little comparisons, and it deals with the remake of The Wolfman.  The movie was supposed to be a horror movie...a violent, bloody, R rated horror movie.  It delivered on the bloody violence, but it killed any possibility of being true horror because of the tonal change in the movie.  IMO, things really fell apart in 2 major scenes...the one where our lovely Wolfman is running all over the building tops, and in the mercifully deleted ballroom scene.  Finally, falling completely on its face when our two lovely Wolfmen go at it in a rock 'em sock 'em fight.  Both scenes came off as downright silly, funny, and goofy to me.  It was a completely different feel and the horror was lost and the movie turned into a bad joke.

To me, Maia's introduction and subsequent dealings play right along with the earlier scene of Logan being the antag, now turned victim.  There's no change in tone or theme, even though Maia is what Maia is.  She teases and taunts Logan, just like he did to his earlier victims.

Anyways, as I said, I really appreciate when people offer their ideas, and I especially appreciate it when those ideas are good ones.

Kevin, I think I will use your ideas and add a few lines from Maia to Logan when she's fucking around with him, so he and everyone else know a little more about what and who she is.

Thanks you guys!
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DV44
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Hey Jeff,

Just read the script, nicely done. Well written. You did a great job with the pace of the story, never felt rushed. The issue with Emma leaving with Logan so quick after they had met didn't bother me. A couple of things- Maybe Emma was a bit intoxicated from drinking throughout the day at the ballgame or maybe she was a lonely girl who finally had a guy who took interest in her and she didn't want the night to end. Reasons I felt could have made her leave with him and possibly she wasn't thinking in the right frame of mind. Loved that you choose Tyler as the alternate name for Logan (Fight Club rules!).

One issue I have is after Logan kills Emma he returns to the same place and meets Maia. I would think that Emma's friends would have notified the police as to what Logan looks like and because Emma's disappearance was now the third kidnapping there would be police patrolling looking for a guy that fits Logan's discription.

All in all fantastic job Jeff. Sick story (but in a good way)

- Dirk

P.S. Thanks again for your help!
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Dreamscale
Posted: December 2nd, 2012, 9:52am Report to Moderator
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Hey Dirk, thanks for reading.  I always liked this one.

Others also questioned the return to the same place, but I'll tell you this - unless you've been to a Packers game, it's hard to imagine.  It's very spread out, starts early, and there's 1,000's of peeps who all look and act the same.  There is always police presence, but it would be impossible to lock such an area down.

Thanks again and best of luck with your new feature!!
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oJOHNNYoNUTSo
Posted: September 21st, 2013, 5:29pm Report to Moderator
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Jeff,

I grew up in Ozaukee County, so I felt right at home here.  I superimposed my own sense of the dialect in the dialogue, but I thought it would be humorous if Logan would've overtly displayed a Wisconsin tone in his.  Speaking of which, I thought his dialogue was very twisted and fun along with his actions.

Although cheesy, the story unraveled quickly from point A to B and once inside the house of horrors, it was just flat out demented.  Good job.

The ending works pretty good with the snappy Tales from the Crypt vibe here.  You've executed a fantastic symmetry to this story, but a symmetry that Maia was not fully invested in.  She turned the tables in gruesome fashion, but the matter over mind approach felt out of place.

Shout out to Bert for a great opening and closing with Tanis too, it was a delicious dish.

Great work, I thought this was a fun journey into an original method of boob-worshiping torture.

Johnny



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Dreamscale
Posted: September 23rd, 2013, 1:38pm Report to Moderator
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Thanks for digging this one up, John.  As always I appreciate your insight.

This was a fun script to write and I remember very vividly as I worked out the various tortures and Maia's "revenge".

I understand your comments about Maia's actions and dialogue.  I have often considered adding some backstory to her character, but every time I think I should make some additions, I end up deciding to leave it the way it is.

I'm going to start your Loose Screws script shortly and will have feedback up before the end of the day.

Thanks again, bro!
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RJ
Posted: September 25th, 2013, 9:19pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Jeff,
Cracked this one open cause I saw it on the list and I don't think I've read anything of yours other than OWC entries.

Have to say that I didn't quite know what to expect when I did open it, but was pleasantly suprised. I used to love watching 'Tales of the crypt' and things like that, which is exactley how this comes across.

Loved Tanis - excellent opening and closing.

Loved how Logan got his 'just desserts' and how Maia dished it.

After reading this I wanted the next one........when are we going to be seeing this on TV??? (please...I need it....can be my next little TV addiction, lol)

Renee  
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Dreamscale
Posted: September 26th, 2013, 10:05am Report to Moderator
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Hey Renee, thanks for reading.  Glad you liked it.  This is pretty brutal and I always worry what peeps will say...or think about me.

There was talk of a Soul Shadows 3, or even a new series, but it never got off the ground.  I would love to start a new one up and maybe it's what SS needs to get going again.

Thanks again!

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SAC
Posted: December 9th, 2013, 11:05pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


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Hey Jeff,

A bit late to the party on this one, but I 'll leave my thoughts.

First off, good job on Tanis by Bert.  I really dig the way that guy writes.

I guess I'll start with my issues first.  There weren't many.  Ok.  Shouldn't the tailgate party be taking place in the Lambeau (sic) Field parking lot and not a K-Mart?  I found that a bit odd, unless you have some insider information that I'm not privy to.

Does Logan realize that his career as a serial killer is probably over after Emma?  I mean, Emma's friends were there too.  I'm sure they could easily ID him if and when they spoke to the cops.  But I guess that's the way it goes in order for the story to work.  Sorry if it seems like I'm nitpicking.  Horror is very subjective!

Now what about Maia?  Where exactly did she come from again?  Okay, she's some sort of protector.  It doesn't work for me really.  Her character and her reason for being just seems like a means to an end.  A device just to give the story its necessary twist, and to make sure Logan gets his just reward.

Now, don't get me wrong, I didn't hate this.  I'll put it to you this way.  The kind of horror I really get off on is the kind that just seems a bit more plausible, if that makes any sense.  It seems you were going for a more Creepshow type of thing here, and if that's the case then I think you've def succeeded.

Your set up was pitch perfect.  You baited the hook very well.

I like your writing style as well.  The visual of Logan trying to catch an errant football is still with me for some reason!  Like I've said in other posts, if I can visualize it while I'm reading then it works for me.  This one had the look and feel of a skilled writer just having a bit of fun.

The gore and violence didn't bother me in the least.  The self scalping thing was very creative, and Logan waving the corpses' arm is great.  

Overall, I did kinda like it really.  It was a fun little tale, just not something that I'd necessarily seek out if I knew it wasn't you who wrote it.

Steve


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Dreamscale
Posted: December 10th, 2013, 11:00am Report to Moderator
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Hey Steve, thanks for reading and feedback.  Sorry this wasn't for you.  No problem, bro.

As for the tailgate partying, you really have to see it to beleive it and understand it, as it's everywhere.  JUst do a Gogle search if you're interested, and you'll see the K-Mart and Kroll's are 2 of the bigger places to tailgate.

As I've mentioned before, again, if you're not familiar with a Packer's game, you can't understand, but it's a literal sea of green and yellow jerseys, jeans, and cheeseheads.  Everyone's schlammered, everyone looks the same, and everyone is very trusting in WI.

I don't think I made the change on this version (as I couldn't make changes on the PDF itself with the title page), but when Maia shows up a couple weeks later, Logan is driving a different SUV, and I think he's even parked at a different spot.

This is from an anthology much like Creepshow or Tales from the Crypt, so complete beleivability should be tossed out the window.

Again, I appreciate your time and feedback and if I can help with anything on your side, let me know, bro.

Take care.
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DanC
Posted: May 16th, 2015, 8:03pm Report to Moderator
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Here is the next one.

1.  page 2  You say Tanis is there.  Shouldn't it be TANIS is there (first intro)

2.  Nice tales from the crypt type intro with Tanis.

3.  Page 2, you have the 3 women hopping out of their SUV.  Wouldn't it belong to just one of them?  That reads clunky to me.

4.  You don't describe the girls at all, was that on purpose?

5.  I was told to keep it simple ( you know the KISS thing, keep it simple stupid) and you use Tyler and at other times, you use logan.  I can keep up, but, I've been told some reviewers find that annoying.  Use one or the other.

6.  So far, this reads like a typical horror story.  Missing girls. pretty girl meets writer who is a psychopath (I don't know that yet, but, I'm on page 11).  If I had to guess (and I was wrong before), Tyler is involved in some way, and so are his parents.  

7.  Why would a girl go off anywhere with a strange guy?  I mean, really?  

8.  I was right, he's the bad guy.  But, her 2 friends will know she's missing.

9.  Umm, she'd be dead.  If he glued her hair and cut her neck and the scalping worked on the other 2, she'd be dead.  Here's why.  She was unconscious.  So, her head would move like we all do when we sleep or are knocked out.  Her head would naturally dip and she'd die.  Now, if you had her lying on the ground, her head tilted back so that that section of her head was glued, then I'd buy it much easier.

10.  Page 16, she keeps calling him Tyler.  I think she'd switch and call him Logan by now.  

11.  LOVE the twist with Maia.  Really cool.  

12.  You use the word cunt 3 times.  Not sure you want to use it that many times in such a short story.  It's like the worst thing u can call a woman and some get really offensive when they hear it in movies.  Not talking about feminists either.

13.  I love the torn out face, but, keep in mind that once you do that and the artery is severed that a person will bleed out in under 2 min and I think be unconscious within 60 seconds.  So, you have a limited amount of time.

I'd rather see her torture him in spots that won't lead to death too quickly.  Like freeze his hands with liquid nitro and then break them off.  Or cut them off slowly then freeze em.  Stuff like that.  She's a god right?  Perhaps she can do that naturally.  

14.  You know, this might be morbid, but, what if she kills him with her nipples?  That'd be a first.

15.  I enjoyed it.  Now, you know what's funny, I have a story that is similar in nature.  Biggest difference is, mine is about old people.  So, I hope if (when?) you read it you don't think that I stole this from you.  I have it tentatively titled "Old Man Killer" but, that might change.  He's a person who goes around killing all the people who abuse seniors.  

Can't believe 2 kooky guys came up with similar ideas.  I think we would have been fast friends if we lived close to each other.  hey, wanna take a ride on my boat??  KIdding.

I aint going nowhere near your skiing resort either

Take care bud
Dan


Please read my scripts:
http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-series/m-1427564706/

I'm interested in reading animation, horror, sci fy, suspense, fantasy, and anything that is good.  I enjoy writing the same.  Looking to team with anyone!

Thanks
Dan
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Dreamscale
Posted: May 17th, 2015, 3:58pm Report to Moderator
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Thanks, Dan. You're an avid reader, that's for sure.

As always, I'll respond to your feedback.


Quoted from DanC
page 2  You say Tanis is there.  Shouldn't it be TANIS is there (first intro)


As I mentioned when I sent ths to you, Bert was responsible for all the Tanis parts.  In Bert's defense, I'd say that Tanis has already been intro'd in all the other SoulShadow pieces, so he probably just thought it wasn't necessary.


Quoted from DanC
Nice tales from the crypt type intro with Tanis.


Yes, Bert did a great job on writing Tanis and all these intro's.


Quoted from DanC
Page 2, you have the 3 women hopping out of their SUV.  Wouldn't it belong to just one of them?  That reads clunky to me.


I'm sure it does belong to 1 of them, but it's completely unimportant to the script who owns the SUV.


Quoted from DanC
You don't describe the girls at all, was that on purpose?


Well, they're described as all being 25 and wearing Green Bay Packers jerseys, hats, mittens, and jeans.  Since they're all wearing the same items, including hats, their actual physical looks would be hard to differentiate.  But maybe a bigger key here is that basically everyone at these talgate parties are wearing the same things, which makes differentiating anyone very difficult, thus, a serial killer would be hard to describe and/or recognize.


Quoted from DanC
I was told to keep it simple ( you know the KISS thing, keep it simple stupid) and you use Tyler and at other times, you use logan.  I can keep up, but, I've been told some reviewers find that annoying.  Use one or the other.


Well, Logan is intro'd as Logan, because that's his name.  He intro's himself as Tyler, which is his other personality.  It also protects him when the girls say the guy's name was Tyler.

Once he gets the girls back to the killing floor, he intro's himself as Logan, because Logan is the killer, while Tyler is the means to lure his victims in.


Quoted from DanC
So far, this reads like a typical horror story.  Missing girls. pretty girl meets writer who is a psychopath (I don't know that yet, but, I'm on page 11).  If I had to guess (and I was wrong before), Tyler is involved in some way, and so are his parents.  


Yep, that's the setup and it's intended to be obvious, which, IMO, makes the twist all the more effective.  But, as you learned, his parents were not involved, and were actually killed by him years ago.


Quoted from DanC
Why would a girl go off anywhere with a strange guy?  I mean, really?


Happens all the time, bro.  I can't tell you how many "strange" girls have gotten in my car and went wherever I decided to take them.  Luckily, I never killed any of them, though.  


Quoted from DanC
I was right, he's the bad guy.  But, her 2 friends will know she's missing.


Yep, but again, can they describe him?  Do they know his name?  Know his phone number?  Nope...


Quoted from DanC
Umm, she'd be dead.  If he glued her hair and cut her neck and the scalping worked on the other 2, she'd be dead.  Here's why.  She was unconscious.  So, her head would move like we all do when we sleep or are knocked out.  Her head would naturally dip and she'd die.  Now, if you had her lying on the ground, her head tilted back so that that section of her head was glued, then I'd buy it much easier.


LOL...not really.  The "cut" is a tiny incision that will not do anything until major force is applied by her twisting head.  The other girls died for sure, but do you really think it was because they scalped themelves?  All the girls had their breasts completely cut off, and who knows what other cruel tortures he did to them.


Quoted from DanC
Page 16, she keeps calling him Tyler.  I think she'd switch and call him Logan by now.


SHe thinks his name is Tyler.  Tyler was the nice guy, so she's trying to bring him back.  Logan is the killer.  She doesn't want to aknowledge Logan and bring on his cruel ways.


Quoted from DanC
LOVE the twist with Maia.  Really cool.  


Cool.  Glad you did.  I like her too.  She was inspired by a super hot babe at my gym, when I was writing this.


Quoted from DanC
You use the word cunt 3 times.  Not sure you want to use it that many times in such a short story.  It's like the worst thing u can call a woman and some get really offensive when they hear it in movies.  Not talking about feminists either.


Yep, chicks don't dig the C word, but I don't foresee this as being a chick movie, even though the chick, Maia, take out revenge on Logan for all the shit he's pulled on innocent chicks.


Quoted from DanC
I love the torn out face, but, keep in mind that once you do that and the artery is severed that a person will bleed out in under 2 min and I think be unconscious within 60 seconds.  So, you have a limited amount of time.


THis happens on page 23 and the script ends on the top of page 25, so time-wise, we're fine.  But also, understand this is a horror movie and complete reality does not need to be respected.  There are lots of gangster movies in which someone receives what is known as a "Glasgow smile", and lives.  


Quoted from DanC
I'd rather see her torture him in spots that won't lead to death too quickly.  Like freeze his hands with liquid nitro and then break them off.  Or cut them off slowly then freeze em.  Stuff like that.  She's a god right?  Perhaps she can do that naturally.


Well, I don't see what she does to him as torture, really.  Nor was it intnded to be.


Quoted from DanC
You know, this might be morbid, but, what if she kills him with her nipples?  That'd be a first.


Ummm...no.  That would be pretty goofy!  LOL...


Quoted from DanC
I enjoyed it.  Now, you know what's funny, I have a story that is similar in nature.  Biggest difference is, mine is about old people.  So, I hope if (when?) you read it you don't think that I stole this from you.  I have it tentatively titled "Old Man Killer" but, that might change.  He's a person who goes around killing all the people who abuse seniors.  

Can't believe 2 kooky guys came up with similar ideas.  I think we would have been fast friends if we lived close to each other.  hey, wanna take a ride on my boat??  KIdding.


Interesting.  Look forward to reading it.

Thanks again, bro.

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