Hey Ray, welcome aboard, mate!

I've been very interested in reading something of yours as you have an awful lot to say and have been posting like a madman(which isn't a bad thing at all).

I'm sorry, but I have literally nothing positive to say here.  IMO, this thing's a frickin' mess...in every way, shape, and form.

Before I read a single word, I saw numerous mistakes on page 1, and that's an instant killer, IMO.

Don't go over 4 lines of prose in a single passage (paragraph).  It reads clunky, looks like crap.  Watch your use of over description (there's a shitload here on display).  There are numerous mistakes in terms of grammar, punctuation, sentence structure, word choice, typos, spelling errors, incorrect Flashback formatting, irrelevant Flashbacks, unfilmables, passages that clearly should be broken up (that aren't), and finally, your "notes" after "THE END"...are just God awful...really, man.  Lose 'em immediately.

But, after all that, what's worse, is that the story goes absolutely nowhere, IMO.  Maybe I missed something, but I don't think so.  What is the meaning of this "story?  What's the purpose?  I guess, in an odd way, you did incorporate the lyrics (although quite literally, as in actual singing of the exact song), but I hardly see how that meets the challenge.

Sorry, bud, but this was a tough one to slog through for me.  I don't mean to be an ass (but I seem to say that alot), but I've got to be 100% honest and I am trying to help.

Keep at it!  Take care.

Ray

I think its pretty clear what dregs this script down as others have pointed it out above on numerous occasions so I won't dwell on it... but needless to say, I agree with them.

However, I think there is some semblance of a story here (the origins of one anyway) with diverse and genuine characters that, unfortunately, is obscured, buried even, under the awkward, sloppy and grossly overwritten prose.

The set pieces were a bit cluttered with all these people coming in and out, saying their piece then moving on. This felt more like an intro to a series or feature film whereby you were fitting in as much as possible to give us a flavour of what’s to come in subsequent episodes or whatever. Which is fine if you are going in that direction and expanding the piece into something greater but as a standalone short script its not gonna work. In its current from it’s all unnecessarily incoherent and alienating for the reader. I mean, it’s a fairly basic premise and plot for the 10 pages which is only made cryptic by the writing style.

Although the flashback were poorly formatted, I loved the cut to Don enjoying being caught in the rain juxtaposed with him talking about how he spent three tours in an Afghan desert. That was a nice contrast of images filled in with dialogue to give us an idea of Don’s plight, what he’s been through and suffered and the little things he appreciates nowadays via his post war, legless perspective.

The dialogue came off natural and realistic for the most part, which to me is very important and a good sign as it more or less defines what the writer has to say...you just need to work on your descriptions and formatting, which will come in time.

Best of luck

Col.

First, I want to express my sincere appreciation for those of you who have left feedback.

Dreamscale hit the nail right on the head about my posting a lot.
You reap what you sow.
I see a few rude people dumping screenplays, demanding feedback but express no interest in providing reads on the work of others.
I chuckled when I read a SS regular's response (I think it was Breanne) telling one such person "Please stop by more often. We enjoy being used."
HA!
I've been making investment in you guys.
You've payed back and I appreciate it.

For those of you brave enough, I'd like to continue in the direction you've collectively pointed.

What follows will only refer to the first two pages of a re-work.
I'm learning principles.
No need to re-do the entire thing.

So far: Dialog & characters, exclusively, seem to be generally fine.
But they are lost/wasted in a quagmire of
A: TOO MUCH [expletive] DESCRIPTION! and
B: wrong format structure.
For bonus...
C: these challenges are meant to be light and quick, from what I gather.
This was my first. I didn't see any others for reference material, so I was writing blind, so to speak and I see only Mike's "A-hoo!" for a germane challenge reference.
Open ocean. No landmarks. No sun. No stars. No compass. Just me and my dinghy + dead reckoning.

Will a few brave souls please review the chop shop versions of the first two pages and let me know if I've amputated enough description without killing the story, but rather bringing it out?

I think I revised in the correct format for flashbacks.
Pia, for a SNL skit, you're spot-on correct - Too many characters.
For a light & quick OWC, you're again spot-on.
Col is correct - What I wrote WOULD BE an intro to a series or feature film.
Not to beat a dead horse, myself - I'm now gathering the gist of the intent of the exercise/challenge.

Thank you


Ray

Ray, it's MUCH, MUCH better, to say the least.

There are still lots of issues, IMO, but others may not agree.

First of all, you didn’t offer a single stitch of info on what this “small town square” looks like.  For me, screenplays need to be visual…this isn’t.  Always set your scene so we can get an idea of what it looks like, so we can “see” your movie playing.

You’re missing some commas, some awkward phrasing, and stuff of that nature still.

The Flashbacks are MUCH, MUCH better.  I format them differently, but at least this makes sense now.  The way I do it, is like this…

BEGIN FLASHBACK:  (left justified)

EXT. MAI LAI’S DISCOUNT HOOKERS – MORNING

John stumbles outside, naked, blood pulsing from his severed schlong.

END FLASHBACK.   (left justified again)

IMO, you don’t want to enter back into your scene with dialogue first..it looks odd and makes for a tough transition.

I’d lose the “DISSOLVE TO:” (and/or any other such transitions), unless it’s really important, makes a statement, or is done in a unique way that somehow lends itself to your script.

Hope that helps.

Yessir, it does.
Just what I'm looking for.
The mechanics.

Small town square?
Generic STS. Pick one. Doesn't matter. They're square. They have shops with sidewalks. Done.
Sometimes it just doesn't really matter if it's a town square in Virginia or Oregon.

Generally the same for a mall, airport, harbor or graveyard.

Understood, but for me, I have no clue what your STS is supposed to look like.  Your opening scene runs at least 5 pages, if I remember correctly (with some Flashbacks).  IMO, that means it's an important scene and should be properly set up with some descriptive visuals.

Everybody has different opinions on literally everything, but I bet ya most will agree that you need to describe your sets in some fashion, other than something heinous like, "An ordinary Small Town Square."

You cannot assume that everyone of your readers has had the same life experiences as you...and knows the same things you do.  If someone has never been to San Francisco (and somehow never seen a show or movie, located there), they're not going to know what it looks like, unless you give some description, whatever it may be.

So I go to read this and there are all kinds of wacky things going on here -- with new pages in the thread (?) -- amongst other oddities -- so I guess a rewrite is already in the works?

To echo one of your common questions:  Is the posted version what an interested party should read, or would you prefer that they wait for version 2.0?

Howdy, Bert

Quoted from bert So I go to read this and there are all kinds of wacky things going on here -- with new pages in the thread (?) -- amongst other oddities -- so I guess a rewrite is already in the works? To echo one of your common questions:  Is the posted version what an interested party should read, or would you prefer that they wait for version 2.0?

I apologize.
Frequently the things I do come across as wacky. I dunno. Just me.

It's just an analysis of the two pages presented I'm interested in.

Quoted from Ray For those of you brave enough, I'd like to continue in the direction you've collectively pointed. What follows will only refer to the first two pages of a re-work... No need to re-do the entire thing.

I'm not going to invite anyone to invest in re-working an entire exercise.
Two pages? Eh... no biggie.

How's the scene go in "Aliens"?
        Ripley repeats the action, not very smoothly.  Her hands
        are trembling.  She indicates a stout TUBE underneath
        the slender pulse-rifle barrel.

                                  RIPLEY
                   What's this?

                                  HICKS
                   Well, that's the grenade launcher
                   ...you probably don't want to
                   mess with that.

                                  RIPLEY
                   Look, you started this.  Now show
                   me everything.  I can handle myself.

                                  HICKS
                   Yeah.  I've noticed.

Well... Hicks. Don't puss-out on me now.

http://www.sellascript.com/source/resources/screenplays/Aliens.txt
(BTW, Dreamscale, there's a TON of unfilmables in here. I suggest you avert your eyes.)


Just asking if I still need to prune some more?
Did I prune too much?
Dreamscale reports I still have punctuation issues.
Just stuff.
Throw a dog a bone.

(Other oddities deleted from the thread)

Ray, Aliens was obviously written and directed by Mr. James Cameron, who can and does do anything he wants, anyway he wants to.  It was also 24 years ago.

Mr. Cameron didn't and doesn't have to worry about screeners reading his spec scripts. Same deal with many other Pros, most notably, Mr. QT, whose actual scripts look like shit on paper.

Unfilmables are a debate that most likely will never be completely resolved.  But in sticking to exactly what a screenplay is supposed to be, unfilmables should not be included, because as the name implies, they are "unfilmable", and do not translate to the filmed version.

BTW, there are numerous punctuation issues in the 2 pages you reposted, as I mentioned.

Well done on the posted rewrite, Ray, a huge improvement. As the ever perceptive Jeff rightly points out, there are some some small things to fix but nothing major.

Kudos, sir.

Ray,
The rewrite is an improvement, but you should leave this tale in the dust, your overall story is weak and that's ok. Learn from your mistakes with this and move on to the next thing, don't waste your time with this story, it isn't going anywhere and that's ok. Now for the harsh criticism, I hope the following, it isn't pretty, but I hope it can lead you on the right path:

I think the major complaint from readers here is that you posted "advice" every other second for weeks on what you "thought" a script should be (from commercial ideals, Michael Bay type stuff, etc.), but once you actually posted something of your own it was below amateurish and lacking any sense of skill or talent to say the least..it's one thing to have potential, it's another to lack any skill whatsoever and lack any sense of format which you displayed here.

Honestly it was lower than rubbish(shown in the 100% negative comments about your script, trust me, the people who left neutral comments were only trying to be polite), leaving all of your in depth feedback/comments and cutsie wordplay, for example " (Just asking if I still need to prune some more?  Did I prune too much?
Dreamscale reports I still have punctuation issues.
Just stuff. Throw a dog a bone.""
...meaningless because you cant' back them up with anything of substance.

Look forward to reading your next effort, you've definitely received a ton of advice on what not to do the next time, hopefully you'll learn from your previous mistakes and will never put anything out as awful as your last effort.
Nate

Quoted from n7 The rewrite is an improvement, but you should leave this tale in the dust...

I already stated that I did.
I moved onto mechanics.
Re-read the "2 pages only" post.
You're barking up the wrong tree.

Quoted from n7 Look forward to reading your next effort, you've definitely received a ton of advice on what not to do the next time, hopefully you'll learn from your previous mistakes and will never put anything out as awful as your last effort. Nate

I've not received "a ton" of advice.
I've received multiple confirmations of the same advice.

However, statements such as "never put anything out as awful as your last effort" may SEEM advicely useful, but tell me how I can change anything with that statement?
I can't.

        NATE
  Never put anything out as awful as your last effort.

        RAY
  Okay. Change what?

        NATE
   Never put anything out as awful as your last effort.

        RAY
   Yeah. You already said that.
   Now, what should be changed?

        NATE
    Never put anything out as awful as your last effort.

        RAY
    Thanks, mate. You're a great help.


A few of your site-mates have already USEFULLY directed me to some works with format structure I may be able to guide off of.
Thank you.

Whatchugot, Nate?

My remarks on other works here?
Well, maybe you and I are paying attention to different things.

First, I've not been rude and ugly to anyone, even when provoked.
I'm not even being rude you now.

Second, you've not seen me correct splellin' N grammer. (That was a joke there, in case you missed it)

Third, you've not seen me flag block and chunk because I don't have a problem with it. I know where my limitations are. I don't know where yours are.

Fourth, I've given up on complaining about format. Knock yourself out.

Fifth, you have seen me flag continuity, like "CHARACTER should have told the cops about such and such" or "the CHARACTER has no internal conflict to resolve".
You don't see me saying "Your juvenile story sux."

Sixth, you have seen me flag simple fact, like "shiny metal pistol" is correctly labeled "nickel plated pistol" or "I'd drive a combine across the snowy fields to save my family".
You don't see me saying "That's wrong" and "You're stupid for not...".

And darn near most of the time I've been "post[ing] "advice" every other second for weeks" includes work-arounds.
Not just pointing and crying.

I don't recall seeing you come behind me and post that any of those were incorrect.
Right?

If all a person can do is complain then that's okay.
What I'm looking for are people with the ability to go the next step: to help.
I've found a few people at simplyscripts able to do just that.
So, are you able to help move foreward or do you wanna stay behind and shoot that dead donkey some more?
If you can't, fine.
If you can, thank you.

Ray

Got bored at work.
IT nazis blocked PDFs.
Can only read thread comments.
Went wandering.
I'm pretty sure I just found the "Dude" jwent speculated I might be:
http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-screenwrite/m-1277407265/s-all/

Nope.
I'm not him.

He just wants to argue.
He had his answer like... four or five comments in and kept on arguing.

He's an a$$.
He gots no sense of humor.
Ya'll are a buncha splellin' N grammer po-po.
But you don't see me cryin' 'bout it.

I'm not interested in fighting.
Just quit trying to start one.
Can we get some work done, now?

Hey Ray,

I just finished this. The new 2 pages had a better format to them, but I think your problem with this script is that you have too many things going on in it. Too many different stories you're trying to tell at the same time.

Like: Don the soldier who had his legs blown off, the old lady who hurt her finger, Jim who smokes too much and has cancer, and will have a problem paying for the surgery, the resturant owner who will give Don free chicken for life for delivering something to his brother. (Not sure what he delivered either), and then the song contest.

It's all jumbled together. We're not following any ONE character.

I think you should pick one main character and follow him through his story. The way it is here, it would be Don. If you want to have it about him getting money for Jim, start the script with the two of them together. Show the problem right then, and then show us how Don goes about fixing it. (ending with the song, and collecting the money).

I don't think you need to show him on the mountain top or at war either. Either he or someone else could just mention it briefly, and our imagination could fill the rest in.

Good luck if you do a rewrite,
Cindy

Ray,
I admit I went a overboard with the "awful" comment yet that wasn't my main point. Don't worry, I'm not going to be as harsh this time.

What I was trying to get across is how frustrating it was to have read your comments and "advice" for weeks, but then once you posted something of your own you barely had a grasp on the bare fundamentals like form, style, flashbacks, notes at the end, etc., this after beating people over the head with comments about how we should be choosing to write something on the basis of being commercial rather than something personal.

This made me interpret a lot of your reviews as having more style than substance. It's tough to take anyones advice seriously when they don't have this basic grasp on the fundamentals, which is why all your comments seemed unnecessary after the fact.

Everyone here is always grateful to receive feedback, but hit felt like the only good you ended doing was bumping up some older scripts that had fallen down the boards to help yourself get on the good side of older members. It's always nice to receive that bump, but it doesn't really do any good in the long run.

I'm all for everyone helping each other out, from newbies to the experienced, it's just that at first you came across like you already were well on your way down that path based on your comments and once I read your script it felt like you didn't have the overall understanding of the medium to being making the suggestions you were. Which basically ended up being a waste of peoples time.

Anyway, no hard feelings, just wanted to get my point across, then I'm done with it. I genuinely look forward to reading your future work once you've got a few more stories under your belt and think you'll do fine in the long-haul.
Nate