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Miss Lydia goes on too long, you can get her point across much sooner.
Yeah, I see how to make that first page read better now, and only really have her look out her window or something like that. Taking her out will make a much less clunky opening page.
Although, I must admit, I lose one of my favorite lines about her saying 'I can't wait til God gets His chance to tell them how wrong they are.' I actually heard somebody say that before and I was looking for a chance to use it in one of my stories. (They weren't referring to somebody trespassing, but it was just as minor an offense.) And the first thing that popped into my head was the bible story and prayer that says God forgives those who forgive those that sin against them.
(I'm not a bible person in the slightest, but I went to a Catholic school and I love hearing the hypocrisy in people's voices sometimes. Makes me laugh.)
Quoted from electric dreamer
I don't get the title, at all. A good title can crystallize a theme for the reader.
Lol. I was saying above I couldn't come up for a title to this one at all. Usually, I never have a problem with titles and have gotten a lot of compliments on them and I've kind of come to pride myself on them. But a lot of people don't like this title. Actually, I don't think anybody so far.
It sucks because I was proud of myself when this title hit me, too. (It's Ohio's charge for criminal trespassing.) Obscure, I know, and I didn't expect anybody to take the time and Google or Dogpile it. (I like dogpile better than google, for some reason.), but I was hoping somebody would mention that it was at least a LITTLE clever. (Lol. I don't expect that now.)
Quoted from electric dreamer
Overall, this can be shorter.
Yeah, I had cut and clipped the story down, but I see even more parts I can do without now. (It's 17 pages in screenplay form, (with heavy dialogue). It was originally twenty-six pages in prose form. Putting this into a screenplay version, though, has helped me see things in the prose and I whittled that down to twenty pages.)
Quoted from electric dreamer
Teddy doesn't seem to be firing on all cylinders.
Lol. I don't think you meant that as a compliment, but I'm going to take it as one. :-) And I say that because I actually wanted there to be something 'off' about Teddy. He really wasn't truly quite right in the head. (He wasn't too far gone to be saved, he just needed to be guided in the right direction and had to grow up a little.)
I think what you meant by not firing on all cylinders was he didn't come off as the sleek military type. (Buzz cut, very intelligent and sharp, very learned in fighting ways because of their training. Very responsible.) But I meant for Teddy to be more of a traumatized veteran. Someone who can't get a grip on their emotions. Someone who really isn't the type to go into the army in the firstplace and didn't get from it what he should have. (He was based on somebody I've actually met before.)
Quoted from electric dreamer
Biggest dialogue complaint is all the on the nose business with the cop.
Yeah, you know I have huge difficulties with writing cops. We've talked before about it. I hate having to write those fuckers into my stories. They're just there to tie up loose ends for me and I really have to find a way to utilize them and make them unique.
Thank you once again, Brett, for reading my stuff. All of your posts have been big help to me and I appreciate it a lot.
Although, I must admit, I lose one of my favorite lines about her saying 'I can't wait til God gets His chance to tell them how wrong they are.' I actually heard somebody say that before and I was looking for a chance to use it in one of my stories. (They weren't referring to somebody trespassing, but it was just as minor an offense.) And the first thing that popped into my head was the bible story and prayer that says God forgives those who forgive those that sin against them.
Hey Mark,
It's a good line, I'm sure you can find a way to keep it in there. :P
Lol. I don't think you meant that as a compliment, but I'm going to take it as one. :-) And I say that because I actually wanted there to be something 'off' about Teddy. He really wasn't truly quite right in the head. (He wasn't too far gone to be saved, he just needed to be guided in the right direction and had to grow up a little.)
I think what you meant by not firing on all cylinders was he didn't come off as the sleek military type. (Buzz cut, very intelligent and sharp, very learned in fighting ways because of their training. Very responsible.) But I meant for Teddy to be more of a traumatized veteran. Someone who can't get a grip on their emotions. Someone who really isn't the type to go into the army in the firstplace and didn't get from it what he should have. (He was based on somebody I've actually met before.)
Sorry for not being clearer on this before. What I meant was is that Teddy doesn't seem to be asking the right questions. Teddy has pursued someone he hates and must try to not blow his cover. I don't get the sense that he's struggling with his desires much. He wants this guy dead, but his nature makes him get closer. It may start out that Teddy wants Jonathan to know why he's going to die. But them Teddy internally grows as he gets to know Johnathan. When I read it the second time, the motivators didn't quite line up. When I re-watched "The Sixth Sense", it's like watching a new movie. There should be a similar authenticity here when I go back through things. Seeming innocuous questions have a different connotation, etc.
Thank you once again, Brett, for reading my stuff. All of your posts have been big help to me and I appreciate it a lot.
- Mark
It's my pleasure Mark, you're sitting on some strong talent there. You can write compelling drama without forcing it out on the page. I haven't run into too often here. Hope your other story is shaping up nicely.
Keep writing and rewriting!
Regards, E.D.
LATEST NEWS CineVita Films is producing a short based on my new feature!
Just read this as I'm finishing my shift at work - good to read something new from you.
The pacing of the script is pretty slow but I think that matches the mood you're trying to set. I could picture the avenues and abandoned houses clearly.
I think the strongest points of the script are the dialogue and the message that's behind it all. Also, there doesn't seem to be many wasted words - as in all the dialogue and actions have a meaning by the end of the script.
One thing I would suggest is to make Jonathan more religious. You hint that he believes in God during his conversation with Miss Lydia but he doesn't mention God or religion again. Maybe just something as simple as a crucifix around his neck or something pinned on the fridge by the clipping. Not a big thing but could create another angle for the script.
Liked this a lot and pleased you took it in a different way than I was expecting.
I could picture the avenues and abandoned houses clearly
Woohoo! Chalk up one point for the overwriters! That is one thing that I focus on a lot when I write is to paint a clear picture of everything, but without it being obtrusive to the story.
I think the strongest points of the script are the dialogue and the message that's behind it all
Thank you. The message was my main aim to get across, of what it means to give of yourself and help others. I'm glad that point seems to stand out with most people in the script.
One thing I would suggest is to make Jonathan more religious. You hint that he believes in God during his conversation with Miss Lydia but he doesn't mention God or religion again. Maybe just something as simple as a crucifix around his neck or something pinned on the fridge by the clipping. Not a big thing but could create another angle for the script.
Actually, I wanted to steer people away that Jonathan was doing good for any religious reason. I wanted him to do it because it was the right thing to do, not because a book or scriptures tells a person to do it. The religion was Miss Lydia's thing and he was just trying nicely to point out that she was being a hypocrite. Going back and reading it again, I can see how it can be construed that Jonathan was being religious. I'll have to go back in the script and clear that up.
Anyway, Ste, thank you very much for the read. Glad you liked it and thank you for letting me know that the message was coming across.
Revenge is a theme you turn to often in your work, although this script plays out a little differently from where you usually take your stories, and I like that this one is trying to be about something larger than the story itself. At the risk of sounding stuffy, I would even call it a maturation of your former work.
The scene where Jonathan meets Teddy is the highlight for me. It is here that the dialogue flows the best, with small twists that still feel natural somehow, and nice revelations about these characters without feeling too talky. The line about pride is particularly good, and telling.
I think your description of "loud thuds on wood" -- which you use several times -- is unintentionally confusing. It takes several moments to realize that you are talking about somebody pounding on the door. We all know what that sounds like, so no need to be coy. I would change that to state explicitly that he awakens to someone pounding on his front door.
Teddy's note is simply too long. The talk of apologies and forgiveness is too repetitive, and he says different forms of the same thing several times over. This segment would be all the more powerful if you were to trim it up, and have Teddy deliver his message in simple sentences. It would not be too hard, and to start I would lay a ground-rule that you could only use the words "apologize" and "forgive" one time each.
The final flashback seems to be misplaced. I would have placed it a few seconds earlier, myself. You are telling Jonathan's story here, and it really seems that you should end on Jonathan.
So while I am not fond of the title, I did like the piece. A powerful story with potential, a small cast, and cheaply accomplished. Give this thing a worthy title and perhaps it might attract a little attention.
I would even call it a maturation of your former work.
Crap. You give me such a nice compliment like that and then I have to go write a story like the one I wrote earlier today. Can you do me a favor and (if you ever plan on reading it), just skip the next story I submit so you don't have to retract that 'maturity' statement?
Yeah, in the collection of short stories I've been trying to put together lately, a lot of the themes have to do with either revenge or redemption.
Thank you very much for the compliments. It's really nice to hear people describing this as powerful and that the dialogue is realistic.
Quoted from bert
I think your description of "loud thuds on wood" -- which you use several times -- is unintentionally confusing. It takes several moments to realize that you are talking about somebody pounding on the door. We all know what that sounds like, so no need to be coy.
Hmm. Yeah, that was definately unintentional. I never really even thought too much about that. Writing that part in my head was just more of a transitional thing and I never gave that too much thought. I'll have to go back and take a look at it, clear it up.
Quoted from bert
Teddy's note is simply too long. The talk of apologies and forgiveness is too repetitive, .... The final flashback seems to be misplaced
Wow. Guess I do drag out the forgiveness thing, huh? I wanted Jonathan and Teddy to interact more so Teddy could tell Jonathan about his feelings face to face, but at the same time, I really didn't want to have a thirty-forty page melodrama in my hands, so I thought a note, almost a journal entry, might get those extreme feelings across. I see what you mean that needs toned down.
Quoted from bert
So while I am not fond of the title, I did like the piece. A powerful story with potential, a small cast, and cheaply accomplished. Give this thing a worthy title...
You people don't know what you're talking about. You guys wouldn't know a great title if it smacked you in the forehead. I'm done with this crap.
:-) All right. All right. I'm getting everybody's subtle hints that this needs a new title. I think I already told you about the trouble I had titling this one. I think I'm going to take a day this week and devote it strictly to deciding a new name for this one.
Thank you again very much for reading this one, bert, and double thanks for all your thoughts and advice on it.
And I was just kidding about the story I just finished today, it's really not as bad as I was making it out to be.
Good stuff here my Youngstown friend. Very moving. I will agree a little with others that this ran a bit long. Just a tad though. I think a good filmaker would really pace this thing slowly as you did with it as a script.
Its tough to think of things that would punch up a story like this as a short piece of film. My suggestions...
You need to villafy Jonathan a bit. I think he should be drunk when he kills teddy's sister. You have two good guys here. You need to show reason for one to want to kill the other. Even if Jonathan was texting while driving, at least show us something that it wasn't a complete fluke accident. I really believe this piece begs for that. Then, when Teddy meets him, He can see Jonathan has devoted his life to helping others less fortunate for him because of his guilt.
The very last V.O. line in the flashback fell flat for me.
TEDDY (V.O.) I know now that there's a lot more to life than just struggling to get by yourself.
I think you need to set this up better or rewrite it. As many have said, this has a slow pace. One way to pick it up would to be the flashback of Teddy pouring out all his beers in Jonathans sink to start. Then give him a good (V.O.) line. We wouldn't know its Jonathan's sink at this point.
Tell your story...
Then, when Jonathan sees the empties in his sink at the end... We hear Teddy's (V.O.) line again. As an audience, we will get it. And, to me, it would have more power. Good luck with it. I think this is a very filmable short. Best I've read here in awhile.
What's up, James? How's things been? Congrats on the writer's challenge, by the way. Good job.
Much thanks for checking this one out. Really glad you liked it.
Quoted from jwent
You need to villafy Jonathan a bit. I think he should be drunk when he kills teddy's sister.
Actually, he was. I did have him come out and say in dialogue directly to the cop that he was drunk-driving when he crashed into Katie Oliver, but reviewing it, it sounded cliche and didn't flow off the tongue for me, so I axed that line. There's subtle hints about it, though, that I was hoping would stand as to why Jonathan doesn't drink and why he wants to help others so bad. That's why when Teddy asks him if he wants a beer, he says "No, I don't drink." and Teddy looks shocked at that. Then later on, when Teddy declares 'Well, you kicked your drinking problem...' and Jonathan replies "I never told you I had a drinking problem..." I was hoping those parts represented Jonathan's alcohol problems in the past and hope people would get that he killed her in a drunk driving accident.
I'll have to go back and see if I can make that part a little bit clearer.
Quoted from jwent
the flashback of Teddy pouring out all his beers in Jonathans sink to start. Then give him a good (V.O.) line. We wouldn't know its Jonathan's sink at this point.
Tell your story...
Then, when Jonathan sees the empties in his sink at the end... We hear Teddy's (V.O.) line again.
That could work very well, actually. I was a little bit unsure as to how (and where) to end this. When I wrote this as a prose short story, I knew exactly how I wanted it to end because the prose version is mostly an internal story. It got a little tricky for me to do the screenplay because I have to show everything out that happens, instead of just saying what Jonathan's thinking. I was really confused where to put that image of Teddy pouring out the beer and I think you just fixed it for me.
Pretty good idea, James. Thank you for that. You've brought up some very good points and ideas in a couple other of my stories, too. I appreciate that a lot.
Once again, really happy to hear you liked it, and good luck to you on your next challenge. I don't know if anybody threw their hat into the ring yet for the next one. I was thinking about it the other night, have a little Battle of the Rust Belt, but I have a lot of doubles coming up that I have to work and wasn't too sure if I'd have the time.
This is much more like it. While I wasn't a fan overall of the last script, this more than makes up for it. I'd argue you're writing much more from the heart and in your own voice here. This is a fantastic little script, make no doubt about it. You're dealing with themes of redemption, forgiveness and wrapping them up in contemporary issues. And you do it so well.
I agree that the title needs changing and that you can knock a few pages off to create a leaner script. A rewrite tidying things up would achieve that - in my mind, it doesn't require fundamental changes. In turn, you'd make this much more attractive to produce as a 10 minute max short - that said, this could be filmed as it is under 18 minutes for sure. I'd imagine you're getting more than a few requests (and justifiably so) from people looking to produce this script. I'd argue you should hold out for a team who will bring some real value to it. Done properly, this could be a terrific short film. Not something to be wasted for a low value production.
My only problem was the incongruous "Southside Niggaz". It read uncomfortable and played no real significance. Not sure how others feel about it, but it stuck with me for all the wrong reasons.
Glad to see this one hit a much better note with you. Redemption and forgiveness is a big thing on my agenda these days, personally. And yeah, my own voice (and even my actions, like the work with the mission) are in both of these characters. (Jonathan being the person I am now, and Teddy the person I used to be, though I never thought about killing anybody, I'm talking about Teddy's personality and his realizations.) That's why I had to watch myself writing it, they were starting to sound too much alike at certain points.
Yuck. The title. Don't remind me. It's been like 7 months since I wrote this now (in short story form), and still a replacement title hasn't popped in my head. And I'm definately going to be looking into shaving this one down to make it more page count friendly. I see where there's a lot of extraneous stuff now.
As for the Southside Niggaz, I was just trying to slice in pieces of real life. The house I had in mind while using this (which was demolished a week after I finished writing the short story prose version), actually had Southside Niggaz graffitied on it. Almost every vacant house on my street has either graffiti from them (who I'm guessing are crips) or the Erie Street Bangers (who I'm guessing are bloods). Yes, you guessed it. I live in the ghetto. It's a far cry from the farm I owned just three short years ago.
Quoted from Andrew
I'd imagine you're getting more than a few requests (and justifiably so) from people looking to produce this script.
Actually, not a one. And I'm guessing the page count has a lot to do with that, that's why I'm going to work it down.
Thank you very much Andrew, for doing the double feature tonight. I'm glad that at least one of them were entertaining for you. Thank you very much for all your opinions on them.
I figured I owe you a read and I dug this one out... I know the last one I read "Burnside" was about an alcoholic that lived in a neighborhood full of abandoned houses.
BURNSIDE Oscar turns and looks back at his neighborhood. Most of the houses are abandoned and in ruins. The windows broke and doors kicked in.
2911.21 Only half the houses are raked. The others are empty and vacant and graffitied. Some of them, the windows are broken and doors kicked in.
You should change it up, maybe kick the windows in next time and have the doors broken
Just messing
I gotta say, I enjoyed this "short". A little longer than average, but still, it kept me intrigued til the end. It had a nice bittersweet ending, it could all have been too easy for Ted to put a bullet in Jonathan's head. Realizing the good that Jonathan is doing with his life, helped saved his own.
As usual, it's well written from you and some of the dialogue was on the nose, but didn't spoil the read.
Hey other Mark. (Man, people reading our posts to each other have to be confused. :-)
Again, sorry for the late reply.
Lol. '2911.21'. This title got bashed on the boards by quite a few people. I've liked the title, but agree, it is different. It's actually Ohio's penal code for criminal trespassing.
Strange enough, this has been picked up to shoot (funding came through not too long ago) and the director said he liked the title and didn't want to change it. Even though it'll be shot in New York, he's still going to keep the setting in Youngstown.
Quoted from Mark
You should change it up, maybe kick the windows in next time and have the doors broken
Lol. You noticed. You weren't supposed to read 'Burnside' and '2911' back-to back. This version of '2911.21' is the first draft. That description got edited out of the final draft of '2911.21', but I loved it so much, I recycled it into the storyboard that I eventually worked into 'Burnside'. A lot of my edits, (and even some stuff I don't edit) I love recycling into other works.
Can you tell Youngstown doesn't change much?
I think most of my shorts end up being between 12-20 pages long. (The final draft of this story ended up 14 pages I think.) I love stories that have a little more meat to them and get a little more involving. I think that's why I've been lucky enough to work mainly with directors already attached to studios or production company's rather than student filmmakers. They're more willing to put in extra work and able to get extra money here and there if they need it.
(Now all I'm hoping for is that all these stories I have in production will see the light of day soon. I'm not liking the waiting game.)
As of lately, though, my shorts have been in the 6-12 page range to meet certain requirements and budgets. I don't mind those stories, either.
Anyway, I'm glad this one worked for you, and I'm pretty sure I brushed up most of the on-the-nose dialogue by the final draft, but it's been so long since I've gone back to this one, I'm scared to look. :-)
Thanks again, Mark. I'm pretty sure you didn't owe me any reads, (in fact, I think I owe you), but I appreciate you taking a look and letting me know what you thought.
I consider myself a growing fan of your work particularly on the basis of this and Burnside.
Similar to Burnside, I liked the slow build. Once again you take great care to paint the picture in terms of location, setting up a clear and defined mood to proceedings without it feeling laborious or overwritten.
I wondered why Jonathan was so generous and accommodating to Teddy until you cleverly introduce the war veteran element, it helps ground their interactions with a certain earnestness while shaking of any claims of contrivance. The added revelation at the end with Jonathan’s own past justifies it even more.
I like how you planted the reveal of Teddy’s secret surveillance of Jonathan right after Jonathan has been so good to him and they’re about to share a house together for the night. Perfect timing to intrigue the reader and raise the tension of the upcoming scenes.
Up to this point I was on board, strapped in, totally immersed in the story. The dialogue flowed nicely, felt realistic and true to the well drawn, fleshed out characters…and in such few pages too. Once in Jonathan’s house, the interjection of wry humour between the two alleviated the tension somewhat…until it was cranked up again with Teddy occasionally letting his guard down before talking his way out of again. All finely balanced, culminating in the tense moments of Teddy pausing outside Jonathan’s room. So far so good…
Unfortunately, I think you dropped the ball to a certain degree when the cop talks to Jonathan and we find the true identity of Teddy and his motivations. In particular when Jonathan says.
JONATHAN It was a long time ago. I was on my way home after a Sadies Hawkins dance. I killed a girl in another car.
Man, was this big reveal dropped so flippantly or what?! I had to re-read it to make sure I had picked it up correctly. Very little is given away in regards of reactions or demeanour in both the cop and Jonathan, it’s like he’s saying something completely innocuous and insignificant as opposed to a nugget of information which has essentially set this whole chain of events in motion. I think you need to play this up a bit more, rephrase it, dramatise it but without manipulation.
However, you finished strongly. Some may frown at the extensive VO but I reckon it would work well juxtaposed over the images you present; the tidiness of the room Teddy stayed in, Jonathan smelling the sink hole (as the unpleasant odour is duly explained in the letter) and Teddy’s discovery of the obituary clipping in the kitchen all flow beautifully while adding poignancy to the sentiments of the letter.
And it’s these sentiments underpinning the piece that elevate it to something special. Tackling a theme as heavy and riddled with mawkish sentimentality as forgiveness is a brave vocation to take on and it’s to your credit that you pull it off.
I take great heart in the idea of forgiveness being bestowed upon one lost soul to another amid the dour destitution all around them. The belief that the goodness in humanity can (sometimes) triumph over tragedy, loss and hopelessness, the belief in our ability to recognize someone’s genuine efforts to turn their life around and right a wrong and how this inspires the stricken one to make the right decision as a result cannot, and should not, be taken lightly. A powerful concept which I think you executed admirably in the closing pages and it’s this message I take away with me from the read, no better gift then that. Thank you.
Col.
P.S. I’m presuming that Teddy’s surname isn’t Riley as written on page 1. A typo, yeah? Get it sorted and repost it pronto as it threw me off momentarily when we get to the “answers” part of the script from page 12 onwards.
Thanks for cracking this one open. I actually went back and looked at the script (under this link) and realized I never did update the second draft to the board, so I'm sorry for the mistakes that are still here. (Lol. This was also written in Microsoft Works. Yes, Works. Not Word. So that's why the margins are pretty off, also.) I almost feel ashamed for having this draft up now, but don't know if it'd be worth uploading it again since it's already in production. (That typo with Teddy RILEY really ticked me off when I saw it. I don't know how I missed that!)
But thank you nevertheless for the very warm compliments. They're very humbling coming from you and reading your well-analyzed critiques of stories over the years.
Quoted from Col
Unfortunately, I think you dropped the ball to a certain degree when the cop talks to Jonathan
I agree with you there. I did force that reveal into the cops' dialogue and remember that reading very on the nose and matter of fact. In the other final draft I wrote, I think I toned the matter of factness down, but I do believe it is still delivered through their dialogue. I wrote the second draft over a year and a half ago, so I don't remember if I corrected that exactly.
Quoted from Col
And it’s these sentiments underpinning the piece that elevate it to something special. Tackling a theme as heavy and riddled with mawkish sentimentality as forgiveness is a brave vocation to take on and it’s to your credit that you pull it off.
I take great heart in the idea of forgiveness being bestowed upon one lost soul to another amid the dour destitution all around them. The belief that the goodness in humanity can (sometimes) triumph over tragedy, loss and hopelessness, the belief in our ability to recognize someone’s genuine efforts to turn their life around and right a wrong and how this inspires the stricken one to make the right decision as a result cannot, and should not, be taken lightly. A powerful concept which I think you executed admirably in the closing pages and it’s this message I take away with me from the read, no better gift then that. Thank you.
Sorry to highlight those whole paragraphs from you, but I wanted to point out that I'm glad to see the story is getting people thinking on deeper levels than just shock and cuteness. Hearing philosophies like that from you are the greatest compliments I think a story can get. Again, thank you.
Forgiveness is an issue I've been dealing with, lately, not with just stories, but also in my real life. I have two other stories just recently written that deal with forgiveness, though they steal need some work before I submit them to the boards.
I didn't do anything as horrid as taking anybody's life, but I've made decisions that I'm in no way proud of, and I never dealt with those decisions until just recently. Now that I have, it's like breathing fresh air and now that all that's behind me, things have been working out great.
Except the girlfriend situation. :-) That's stilll crap.
As for the title '2911.21'... it's Ohio's penal code charge for criminal trespassing. After I wrote this one, I had a very hard time trying to title it. I thought about calling it 'Squat', but I already wrote a porn called that. :-) Finally, I decided to look up the charge code and decided to go with that. I wasn't crazy about it at first, but I must admit, it's grown on me since.
Thank you again, Col, for the kind words and thoughts.