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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Unproduced Screenplay Discussion    Short Scripts  ›  Shovel Moderators: bert
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Eoin
Posted: May 14th, 2013, 7:49am Report to Moderator
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Hello Mark,

A nice (if nice is the right word!) little tale you have here. I liked the premise and the visuals. The cold, heaped up snow and scraping sound of metal on concrete all reflected nicely what was going on internally in Raymond's head.

I was waiting for some warm visually at the end to hint at the redemption process.

I did have to reread the last bit to understand who the driver was. Maybe the connection between the bend over stop sign and the rusted beat up pick truck should be a little stronger at the start to reinforce that link.

This reminded me of Seamus Heaney poem, Mid Term Break.

Overall, good job.

Eoin

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Eoin  -  May 14th, 2013, 9:11am
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LC
Posted: May 14th, 2013, 8:51am Report to Moderator
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Hello Mark,  
Okay, couldn't resist responding to this one.


Quoted from Mark 'lay not lie' Lyons

I'm not taking the blame for that one!  That one is my 'editor' Libby's fault!  She knows she's my go-to person for lay and lie.  She pointed out two or three other lays and lies and never mentioned that one.  She'll be receiving a very pointed e-mail from me tonight.


Now, this is just typical 'passing the buck' behaviour here!  

I've been watching the 'Shovel' thread and obviously I was/am darn curious re the general consensus of feedback and Mark, I've gotta say I'm quite surprised at the amount of similarities in J.S.'s feedback...to that of mine, I mean.


Quoted from Mark
I can understand where you're coming from there.  I guess sometimes when I see a film, I like to not understand everything in the beginning, and I love to see how it all comes together.  I guess I work that into my writing, too.


Mark, excellent point. The puzzle is often half the fun.

Re: 'Shovel' in general, I like not completely understanding some things (the way you've written them, I mean) in this story especially relating to different environment/cultural exchanges etc. and as you know there were certain phrases (as J.S. points out) that had me a little flumoxed that I still think could do with a little re-wording but others, I acknowledge are just that, cultural differences and part of the 'hood'.  

That said, however, I still think that one of the aims of the writer is to affect their audience overall, and so if there ends up being a consensus (not established in feedback yet, 'two' opinions is hardly overwhelming) that some things are a little unclear, then I reckon you might want to think about a slight re-jig.

I did think about posting up my original feedback but seeing as this is a later draft I didn't want to go over old territory that you may or may not have changed. And, obviously mine is just another opinion and you as the writer, naturally have the last word - it's your baby, after all.

But, bearing in mind this:
Quoted from Mark
... When I give this one a final 'go' before any production starts on it, I will be visiting it again and decide what to do to make it fire on 'all' cylinders.


I can't resist restating my opinion on two points:

...and that is re the 'big reveal' at the end. 'The pickup's wrecked' and 'the husband being away' lines say it all! And the Bradley bit is - beautiful! but spelling out the 'drunk blonde man' - imo, noooooooooooooooooooo!

I'd suggest you stop at, 'where my brother got hit' if you've got to, but to go beyond that is hitting your audience over the head with a sledgehammer with what went down, and without this you make the story so much more stylish and enigmatic -- even if some nongs just don't get it. Alternately, use a visual to get this message across.

On that point above, I hope you get more reads and more feedback in response to this particular part of 'Shovel' amongst other things - cause I could be wrong... and really want to know what others think.

And lastly, I still think the final voice-over needs a little tweaking, which kind of goes without saying I suppose cause you've acknowledged it's not quite there, as well... but you'll get it.

It's great stuff Mark. Simple, but emotive and poignant, and in the right hands could be beautifully filmed 'short'. I just wanna know what others think about that spelled out ending.

Love your joke in the previous response about 'mowed' btw. Very funny! And, no it doesn't have the same ring to it.

Hope all this makes sense - tis a little late at night here.

P.S. Just noticed - Eoin got it!




Revision History (2 edits; 1 reasons shown)
LC  -  May 14th, 2013, 9:15am
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J.S.
Posted: May 14th, 2013, 6:38pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Mark,

I'm glad that I can be of help. I think you brought up a lot of enlightening information so I'd like to touch on that.


Quoted from rc1107


The money it costs just to bury a loved one.  I set this up in a poverty-stricken neighborhood.  A ghetto, pretty much.  (And yeah, you're right, Raymond Dre and his family are black.)



It never crossed my mind that that's why he said money because you didn't really allude to it. Here's where I think the problem is.

I don't write knowing where the story is taking me. But I used to. That way I can't really write in stuff that could be confusing. I take it one step at a time and work my way through it all the way to the end and I'm just as surprised where it takes me as the audience would be. So I'm taking that same ride the audience is taking. I don't write in a premeditated fashion, plotting a kind of puzzle as Libby put it, because I believe the result is so different, from the audience's perspective that is.

I understand there are certain things you want to suppress from the audience, I can sympathize. Allow for some deeper thought. But I don't see how I could have understood that's why they needed money and I'm not sure who else was able to pick up on that.

In a story like "Hills Like White Elephants" the entire story is underneath the surface. But in that story, Hemingway is using 'every trick in the book' to allude to the real theme at hand. He focuses on a very simple idea and spends the entire story alluding to that single idea building us up. Sure, even in that story I would be confused in the beginning. But he is able to blend what appears to be a regular argument into something much deeper, every rising moment the characters talk. So you shift from thinking it was this over here to being that over there. That I like, and I don't have a problem with. I can't do that because I think its hard to pull off. That's just me :)

Back to why the money. Maybe you think the audience didn't have to know that. I think you would be mistaken. The money is your character's goal. That can known from the script. The burial is your story's inciting incident. That cannot be known from the script. We don't know why he needs the money. It could be because of anything. And because your story has already begun, I think your voice over serves as Act I while what's happening on screen is Act II, you're better off telling us. Enough on that point :)


Quoted from rc1107


I don't come right out and say it right away, it's only alluded to.  I didn't want to be too expositional and come right out and say they can't exactly afford the funeral.  I wanted to take a little bit of time with the set up and atmosphere.



As I said above, I don't get the sense of you alluding to it. I also think its dangerous to have key story elements given to us in an opaque manner. There are certain things you can hide and reveal at a later time. But something like the inciting incident should be written in.


Quoted from rc1107


[quote=J.S.]
"And then it started snowing."

I don't get the logical step between this and the previous line of dialogue.
[quote]

When it snows in the hood, everyone gets their shovel and goes knocking at doors, trying to make some extra money.  Again, I didn't come right out and say that, but why would I?  It's evident enough that Raymond's using the snowstorm as a way to make money.


My point was that I only got very vague information from the too lines before (something about not arguing about money and dad saying it was going to be okay) and so I don't see how what your character said makes sense when he says "and then it started snowing." I don't see the connection. Again, I do now because I know the whole story. But because you've left key thing out, it was difficult for me to see it.


Quoted from rc1107

That whole part there, Raymond Dre going inside and getting the glass of water and getting his brother's basketball, is to set up the lonely atmosphere Raymond has to live with now.  Life without his brother.


Again, that's not what I got out of it. I think it would be a stretch for the audience to have known that. And if you're audience is not going to get it, you're better off without it. Everything is written for the audience. That's my rule. :)


Quoted from rc1107

I agree it is a bit bland, but I wanted to set up a very somber atmosphere.


I can give you this one, partly, because it wouldn't take much time on screen so it's not like I'll be losing my attention or anything. I get that you want to stretch the depressing undertone over into this shot so I'll say its okay. I still think it does nothing for the story and I believe story and atmosphere should go together, but there are exceptions. And because its part of the mood of your story, I can run with it in there.


Quoted from rc1107

:-)  I actually love that visual, and I've used it quite frequently before when my characters are in an extreme states of sadness.  Strange, yes.  But it also touches me in a way I can't explain.


I thought it was kinda funny. First thought that popped into my head was No Country for Old Men. Second thought was, "why?" (Not why would this be a possible allusion to that, why would you do this). Like I mentioned above, if you can work it into the story it can be 10x more effective than just sitting there on its own. It's like the music stops, you crash a cymbal, and the music picks up again.


Quoted from rc1107

I can understand where you're coming from there.  I guess sometimes when I see a film, I like to not understand everything in the beginning, and I love to see how it all comes together.  I guess I work that into my writing, too.


I have no issue with you doing that as long as you are able to do it well. Edgar Allan Poe does that with some of his stories but honestly, it takes real skill to be that calculating. And I'm afraid not everyone can hone that skill well. I know I can't. Because you always need someone else to read the story and then you have to ask them if they got all the key elements. I agree it's always fun to read a story the second time around and find more and more clues that lead to what happens later on, "Casque of Amontillado", but the basic elements should be there the first time to yield a satisfying read/watch.


Quoted from rc1107

And thank you very much for all your suggestions and your thoughts.  When I give this one a final 'go' before any production starts on it, I will be visiting it again and decide what to do to make it fire on 'all' cylinders.


Let me know if I can be of any further help.

Take Care Mark,

-J.S.

P.S.

I forgot to mention some things Libby brought up.


Quoted from LC

...and that is re the 'big reveal' at the end. 'The pickup's wrecked' and 'the husband being away' lines say it all! And the Bradley bit is - beautiful! but spelling out the 'drunk blonde man' - imo, noooooooooooooooooooo!

I'd suggest you stop at, 'where my brother got hit' if you've got to, but to go beyond that is hitting your audience over the head with a sledgehammer with what went down, and without this you make the story so much more stylish and enigmatic -- even if some nongs just don't get it. Alternately, use a visual to get this message across.


I agree with Libby. You set up the smashed pick-up. Now all you have to do is say the pick-up smashed into the stop sign and you've connected the two ideas. You don't need to go any further than that.


Quoted from LC

And lastly, I still think the final voice-over needs a little tweaking, which kind of goes without saying I suppose cause you've acknowledged it's not quite there, as well... but you'll get it.


I agree. Honestly I would remove it altogether once you do the "final reveal." It's anti-climactic.

Revision History (5 edits; 1 reasons shown)
J.S.  -  May 14th, 2013, 7:24pm
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dogglebe
Posted: May 14th, 2013, 6:41pm Report to Moderator
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I enjoyed this short very much.  It had an ending I wasn't expecting but was very happy to read.  The only thing that would prevent someone from shooting this is the amount of snow you would need.

Very good job.


Phil
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irish eyes
Posted: May 14th, 2013, 8:11pm Report to Moderator
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Yo Mark

Another fine  piece of writing from you.

It was refreshing to see a 12 year old depicted as having a heart and being so forgiving, rather than an attitude and fuck the world.

The script flowed very easily except this at the end :

RAYMOND DRE (V.O.)
I wonder if a day will ever come
when I can leave Lanterman Road and
not think about the spot where my
brother got hit by the drunk blonde
man in the pick-up truck.

This was hard to read.... I suggest more action less dialogue.

Maybe:

Flowers are now piled around the base of the pole and a
memorial plaque reads 'Randall'.

Raymond glances up at the Hickson house. From a window, Marianne watches on , tears stream from her face.

Raymond Dre lays the basketball down in with the flowers and
stands back up.

Raymond
Goodbye brother.

Just an example of where we can figure out what's happening without the chunky dialogue.

Anyways, still an awesome piece from you, you captured a lot of emotion just from a kid shoveling.

Mark

On another note :


Quoted from Eoin
This reminded me of Seamus Heaney poem, Mid Term Break.


It's good to see a hometown hero get a mention... we went to the same school only 20 years apart and of course, one of us is a world famous writer and poet and the other is Seamus Heaney





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rc1107
Posted: May 15th, 2013, 7:18am Report to Moderator
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Hey Eoin.

Thank you very much.  I appreciate the read.

I've heard of Seamus Heaney, but I'd never read any of his stuff before.  I looked up 'Mid Term Break'.  I liked it.  A lot.  I'm not a big fan of poetry, but I'll be looking up some more of his stuff.  Thanks for the heads up on him.

About that last bit:  Yeah, I agree.  Something has to be done with it.  I've had trouble wondering how to end it since the beginning.

On the bright side, I got all summer to think of something to fix it up.  :-)

Thanks again, Eoin.

- Mark


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AmbitionIsKey
Posted: May 15th, 2013, 9:52am Report to Moderator
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Hey again Mark,

Thought I'd try this short out since some of the other shorts you've posted lately haven't really been up my alley... but I really enjoyed this and it was written real nice.

I actually posted a short to Don, that hopefully is up soon, that uses similar style of V.O -- so it was cool to see you doing that too.

Overall, I thought the story was good.  Like Mark said above, I really really like your main characters, and loved his V.O.  He was so heartwarming and he felt like just... a poor but lovely kid.  I liked the emotion of the entire story.

I have no fresh feedback for you.  Everyone has already covered everything.  The only thing I didn't really like was our main guy's name, but I'm picky like that so disragard anything I say in the future about loving/hating/loathing names, haha.

But, yes, back to the short.  It was pithy, which was what I liked.  No dull spots, just all very endearing and emotional.  You really are a drama man, you nail it.

Good luck with this.

-- Curt


"No matter what you do, your job is to tell your story..."

Short scripts

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(6 pages, drama/thriller)
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rc1107
Posted: May 16th, 2013, 11:29pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Libby.

:-)  I was hoping you'd get a kick out of the 'editor' comment if you saw it.

You know I've worked and reworked on the last dialogue/monologue/speech/whatever you want to call it, and I just can't find anything to end on that I like.  (And to yours and James' credit, some directors I've been in talks with feel the same way too.)

I know that 'drunk blonde guy' reference kind of kills the uplifting spirit of Raymond Dre, but at the same time, I wanted him to display some anger or emotion at the person who IS at fault.  I really wanted to note that Raymond doesn't hold the family at fault, just the man who did it.  (Which I think is important to note in society also.)  You know a lot of my writing deals with forgiveness and redemption, but in this scenario, I wanted to bring to light that the guilty's family carries the burden, also.

But, it does spell out what exactly happened and does come off as expositional.  I do understand what you guys are talking about.  I wasn't arguing that case at all.  I just felt that line was an easy way that Raymond Dre still feels a strong disregard towards the exact person who's at fault.

Luckily, I got all Summer to think about that part before it goes into production!

:-)  Thanks again, Libby.  As usual, you are awesome.

- Mark


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rc1107
Posted: May 16th, 2013, 11:55pm Report to Moderator
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Hey James.

Thanks for sticking around on the thread and responding again.  I'm sorry it's taken so long to get back to this.


Quoted from J.S.
I don't see how I could have understood that's why they needed money and I'm not sure who else was able to pick up on that.


I see where you're coming from now, and that does come down to me knowing what was so prevalent in the short story, and I didn't work that into the script-version as clearly as I should've.


I agree with you and Libby, (I've also noted in my response to Libby that quite a few others have also, :-)    But I've rewrote that ending dialogue over and over and haven't come up with anything satisfactory (to me).  I'll be taking a step back from it for a little while as other projects have come up, (though it'll always be on my mind), and tackle the idea fresh in a couple months or so.

Thanks again, James, for your deep thoughts into this.  I'm looking forward to seeing new things from you, hopefully very soon.  Is the 'Texas' script the only script posted on SS from you?

- Mark


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rc1107
Posted: May 17th, 2013, 12:16am Report to Moderator
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Hey Phil.

Glad I finally found one that you enjoyed.  :-)


Quoted from dogglebe
The only thing that would prevent someone from shooting this is the amount of snow you would need.


I knew I should've saved my 'Mow' joke for you.  :-)

And it is going to be tough to get around, especially because you might need the whole neighborhood, (or a good stretch of houses), to cooperate.

The secret to this one'll probably be an excessively strong pre-production and have a good local group ready, so when it hits...

Thank you very much for the read, Phil.

- Mark


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J.S.
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Hey Mark,

No problem. I like being as helpful and as honest about my feedback as I humanly can be.


Quoted from rc1107

I agree with you and Libby, (I've also noted in my response to Libby that quite a few others have also, :-)    But I've rewrote that ending dialogue over and over and haven't come up with anything satisfactory (to me).  I'll be taking a step back from it for a little while as other projects have come up, (though it'll always be on my mind), and tackle the idea fresh in a couple months or so.


One of the things you mentioned in your reply to Libby was that you wanted to Raymond display some kind of indignation at the drunk man. I personally don't prefer you do that. Only because you've built a great singular feeling about him, you wouldn't want to end in a slightly different feeling, especially if you want that feeling to come through and be understood by the audience. Stick to one feeling would be my advice.

Also, I'm sure you could work in the "blond drunk man" in there somewhere but not at the end necessarily because I get a sense of alcohol being the problem. I do think you can do your "big reveal" as a connection between the two ideas, the stop sign and smashed truck, and put something about the man being drunk somewhere earlier on, possibly when you talk about the truck that way the idea isn't too separated from the truck and seem unimportant.

I do have another script posted on here, but like I mentioned before I wouldn't bother reading it. It's very much "out there" and I don't think you'd enjoy it. But if you want to take a gander, be my guest. Just know I warned you haha :) It's called Farwell. There's no story in it, so I'll save you the agony of looking for one :)

I'm trying to finish up a feature script, a sort of Polanski-like Horror/Thriller script, and I'd like to have the folks here take a gander at the second draft before I go major surgery and polishing.

-J.S.
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rc1107
Posted: May 17th, 2013, 8:43pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Simon, whom I used to call Mark.

:-)

Thanks for taking a look at this.  I'm sorry it took so long to get back to you, but my days have been busy and I've only been able to get on at night.

Yeah, something's got to be done about that last monologue.  You might be right just taking the whole thing out and replacing it with some good imagery.

I'll be thinking on it over the months.


Quoted from Irish Eyes
It's good to see a hometown hero get a mention... we went to the same school only 20 years apart and of course, one of us is a world famous writer and poet and the other is Seamus Heaney


That made me laugh.  I needed a good laugh today.

Thanks again for taking a look and letting me know your thoughts, Mark.  I'm glad you liked it and found the emotion in it.

- Mark, who is Mark


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rc1107
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Hey Curt.

Just saw your short got posted the other day.  I have it in my queue and I'll be checking it out soon.

I always liked Raymond Dre's name!  It's not standard, though.  I went back and forth calling him Raymond and Raymond Dre just to show that, thanks to his brother's death, his childhood is pretty much over now, and he's forced to become an adult a lot earlier than he thought he would.

Anyway, thank you very much for the compliments.  I love writing drama.  I've always gravitated toward it one way or another.  You've been doing pretty good in drama from the two that I've read so far.

I'll be checking out your story soon.

- Mark


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AmbitionIsKey
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Cool, and no problem man.  I'd suggest taking a look at my latest one "Need" which was posted recently and not "A Perfect Day" since I think I have more than enough information on that one to give it a fulfilling rewrite.

But it's in your line-up, so I appreciate it.  A read from you is always nice.

-- Curt


"No matter what you do, your job is to tell your story..."

Short scripts

GONE
(6 pages, drama/thriller)
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irish eyes
Posted: May 18th, 2013, 10:29am Report to Moderator
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Hey Peter


I just looked through your feedback "MOW"

I'm gonna write that

Thanks for the inspiration.

Simon


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