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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Unproduced Screenplay Discussion    Thriller Scripts  ›  Forefathers Moderators: bert
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  Author    Forefathers  (currently 5201 views)
Jaykur22
Posted: April 5th, 2006, 6:25pm Report to Moderator
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I appreciate your suggestions....I like the idea of Cindy and Jack in a gun battle, and the built up of idea....My hang up with that is,,,i have no room, it's just way too long, I'm at a loss as to what to do?

Character sympathy: you either like that scene with Murphy or you hate it...I'm getting a lot of people who hate it.  I'm going to have to work it over...justify Murphy's killing in some way or another.  

I'm glad the last ten pages worked, I am concerned about that...I hope you found the twist, unexpected?  

thanks again, appreciate the well thought out feedback.

Jaykur


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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Heretic
Posted: April 5th, 2006, 8:05pm Report to Moderator
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I agree that you don't have much room to work with here.

I'll glance over the script again and see where I think it could be shortened.
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The boy who could fly
Posted: May 25th, 2006, 4:27pm Report to Moderator
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hey jaykur22,

just finished this.  over all this was a pretty decent script.  It was actually kinda scary because something like this could happen, and how people would react could be something like how people act in this.  I'm glad I live in Canada

there were a few mistakes here and there.

on page 2 Michelle's intoduction should be capitalized.

there were a few times when the dialog was to the left, not centered.

on page 14 with the president, on page 31 with Woman computerized voice,  and on page 72 with status 3, and also on page 73.

other than that your format was great.


SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Now onto the story.

I liked the opening with chaos all over the streets, it felt very end of the worldish, it made me wanna know what happened and what was going to happen next.

I got a little confused in the first act with all the cutting back and forth in time, but it cleared it self up later on so that was good.

I like the line on page 33 when Murphy says "if I want you lip I would unzip my pants"  HA--funny

also on page 33 when Jack says "thanks from keeping you robot friend from blowing his huge black load on me"  HA--good line

I thought the scene at the top of page 35 felt kind of odd whith Murph smacking around Jack.

jack also seemed to get the worst out of everybody here, he gets the shit kicked out of him the most, almost every scene he's in   poor guy.

I think it slows down to much in the second act thoough and gets quite talky, I think this needs to be tightend up a bit to get it flowing a little more.

things started to pick up on page 64, some good action here.

there is a lot of action in the climax in this script and I liked that, it goes from one problem to another which keeps people in suspense.

On the ending, I liked it, but I think I would have liked it more if Murph really did kill Hariis, it could have had the same outcome, just with more of an emotional impact.  what you have is satisying, but I felt it could have been more, like at first when I read that it was Murph who shot him I was like "holy fuck!", then I see that it was an act and I felt a little cheated.

all in all it was a good action packed script, I think the middle just needs to be a little more tight and less talky, other than that you have a good story with some good action through out.  good job.


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Jaykur22
Posted: May 25th, 2006, 10:49pm Report to Moderator
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thanks for your thoughts.  Ill be sure to fix those random errors.  

As for the time cuts, did in come together in the end..or were you still confused?  You think it be better off linear?

Appreciate what you thought was good, and what didn't work.  That's the hardest part.  I'll be sure to pull that slapping scene, your not the first person to say it doesn't work.   If you have more ideas on jokes that fall flat I'm all ears.

I'm wondering about when you thought it got slow.  Any suggestions on scenes that you thought dragged?  Or was it from page 33-64?  longer?  

thanks

Jaykur


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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The boy who could fly
Posted: May 27th, 2006, 11:01am Report to Moderator
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I think  the time cuts were fine, at first it was confusing, but then after a while it makes more sense.

and for the lull in the middle, it's just that it was too talky, a lot of explaining, I know that you need to do some of this so the audience gets the information, but I think to show it would be better, I also did this in my script and I am about to change that.  The only place it dragged for me was in the middle there, other than that it was fast paced.  Hope that hepled.    Thanks again for the exchange.


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James Fields
Posted: May 27th, 2006, 3:00pm Report to Moderator
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Why'd you remove the script Jaykur? I was getting ready to read it, because it was on the top of my to-do list.

I'm sure you had a good reason for taking it off, but I'm hoping that it will show up soon again.


Coming Soon:

I finally found the title for my short.

Acronym- You've been warned...

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FilmMaker06
Posted: May 27th, 2006, 3:02pm Report to Moderator
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Yeah, I've been thinking about reading this for a little while an just came in here to pull it up and BAM! It was gone...


My life will never be the same with the the forfathers...


-Chris

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Jaykur22
Posted: May 27th, 2006, 9:08pm Report to Moderator
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Shoot...!

I actually had a job interview, and I didnt want the content of the screenplay to affect my opportunity.  It also made me nervous when some people from SS found their scripts on other people's websites without their permission.  If I remember correctly, he was selling CDs full of screenplays.

Recently I've gotten a couple reviews via e-mails and have made such drastic changes that I just haven't had a draft that I wasn't working on.    

If either of you are still in the mood, I'd love to send it to your e-mail and get your opinion.  Just let me know what you'd like me to read in exchange.  If not that's cool, e-mail wierds some people out, I understand.  

Thanks

Jaykur

PS:  If you'd like to check out the newest title, and summary you can find it here:

http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-goose/m-1143837907/


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"

Revision History (1 edits)
Jaykur22  -  June 4th, 2006, 7:49pm
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George Willson
Posted: June 4th, 2006, 9:21pm Report to Moderator
Of The Ancients


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He sent me this in an email, so I'll leave my comments.

SPOILERS

Overall, it is an entertaining story, though it has some weak points. My most prominent observation is that the first half seems to be tighter than the second. I was just reading the story for the first 60 pages, and figured I would just comment when I was done, but once I hit page 60, it's like the whole thing unraveled. Points got confusing. The descriptions were not as good as in the first half, and I got downright lost in some of them.

Your characters require a little development still since everything about them in ensconsed in the plot. They have no life outside of this story, and that is the real division between good and great characters. They need something beyond the plot you've created to give them a life and something for the audience to wonder about once the film is over. Their status after the script is unknown. We know they exist, but what are they doing? Most of your characters are decent in the central plot development, but when you back up and see if they existed before the story and will exist after the story, they just don't. Something to think about.

Here's my comments on your second half.

60: My first question mark. First, what are rail-bikes? Okay, you describe them later, but you should give them a description when they first come up. Second, how did Jack lie to Murphy about his wife? I don't get it.

62: Who the hell are these people?

66: The EMP dart bit was confusing. I flipped back and forth and figured it out, I think, but it was confusing.

66-68: Whoa, that was confusing. I understood that Murphy went another direction, and now he was able to get back almost instantly. I have no idea what happened to Jack and why he couldn't push the button. It needs to be clearer.

69: How did Jack get there? If Jo was riding with Murphy, then what was Jack riding? Jo's still worked? Then why wasn't Jo riding hers or Jack and Jo riding together? The logistics of this section are unraveling. I don't even know what they're doing.

71: You talk about "the train" yet this train and its orientation to the rail bikes has not been set up for this big escape scene. It's one of those things that I figure out if I flip back and forth, but I shouldn't have to do that. It needs to make sense the first time through. It may seem redundant, but you should name the people in the harness. At first glance it looked like Murphy was going to wait for someone to come back with another railbike and he wasn't going to ride in the harness. Also, need a setup for this explosion. Why did Jack's magic button blow up this train?

73: Murphy's wife is what? This does not gibe with what happened earlier...if I may dictate:
pg 3: [Murphy] is with his wife Michelle...
pg 9: [Michelle] screams. Crack! The scream abruptly stops.
Pg 24: A woman's mangled and trampled body lies in the street. A bible falls limply from the woman's hand. Arm-band badge name reads: "Michelle Murphy"

If his wife is the vice-president and she is alive, you have some explaining to do.

After completing the story, I am completely lost in this bit of story. My former paragraph is what that section implies, and yet it can't imply that. I'm afraid whatever lie Jack told was lost on me, since that was never clarified.

76: Why are we only just bringing up the trust of Murphy? Seems an odd issue to tackle now.

77: This may be cool to watch, but why are they doing it? What's going on? Also, what's with the conversation inside the airplane, but Jack and Jo jumped out already? Is this supposed to be V.O.? Needs a lot of clarified detail.

78: End Montage? Where did it begin?

86: What Murphy asked for...huh?

89: Access card in a layer of dust sounds clever, but need more detail on how this works.

98: Murphy says "I'm just going for the Doc's wife. You're free to do as you please, but I don't care bout 'em." Initially this line came off as he's going to resuce the wife and child, but he doesn't care what happens to them. As I sat back and considered this, I figure it has to do with his former relation to the unit that picked the pair up and that he doesn't care about that part of the operation any more. If this is correct, the line needs to be rewritten.

113: Murphy going on about starting a war in relation to his wife...when the hell did this happen? How did Jack lie? I seriously don't understand.

120: The Untied States huh? I find some of your typos very amusing.

I feel like your main character is supposed to be Murphy, and yet he is all but dragged through the central portion of your script. He is a lead for the first part, though, and does a lot of good and it feels right for him to be the one leading, but when he takes a back seat for awhile, it's like he loses a lot of steam. Then again, this could be related to the confusion the second half of the script entails. The first half is a cohesive story, but the second half is a series of mini-missions that are never introduced, but just started. As they unfold, it becomes mostly clear as to what is going on, but when they start, I'm wondering why this is going on. You need to set those up better. You need Murphy to do more. This whole lie thing needs to be explained. There is apparently animosity between he and Jack over it, yet I don't know what it is.

So, as a whole, the story is good, but that second half needs a lot of work.


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FilmMaker06
Posted: June 4th, 2006, 9:23pm Report to Moderator
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I think, when he said your scripts were being stolen, he was talking about that guy who was charging however much for people to be able to read a bunch of scripts. Your screenplays were in there. At least, that's what you said.

-Chris
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Jaykur22
Posted: June 4th, 2006, 10:22pm Report to Moderator
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George thanks for your comments.  If I may some things to run by you.  

60: how did Jack lie to Murphy about his wife? I don't get it.

-Looks like I have a case of knowing the story in my head and not writing it.  Let me try and get to the root of my problem.  

Stop me when things stop being clear.

Murphy’s wife is trampled to death:

(here’s the scene)
“With a Bible in hand, Michelle runs down an abandoned street.  The sounds of the Mob in the distance. People in the mob slams and jostles for position, unorganized chaos like a herd of animals on a stampede. The mob catches up to Michelle.  She is swallowed up, desperately she tries to stay on her feet, she is pushed back and forth inside the scrum. She loses her balance and tumbles head over heals to the ground.  She screams. Tangle of bodies and legs, her hands go up to protect herself. Crack! The scream abruptly stops.”

Maybe it’s not clear she’s dead?

Jack’s lie = Jack: “She'd been shot, her name tag was the same, last name as yours.”

*Now, this is what I’m thinking:
Murphy’s wife is trampled to death by the mob.  
Jack not able to tell Murphy that Michelle was stomped to death lies, telling Murphy that Michelle had been shot.  

Please lemme know where I’m losing you so I can clear it up in the script.  

62: Who the hell are these people?

-new characters, this a bad thing?  They tie the early victims of the story to the ending.  Sounds like it doesn’t work though.  ??

66: The EMP dart bit was confusing. I flipped back and forth and figured it out, I think, but it was confusing.

66-68: Whoa, that was confusing. I understood that Murphy went another direction, and now he was able to get back almost instantly. I have no idea what happened to Jack and why he couldn't push the button. It needs to be clearer.

-ill work out the timing on Murphy making it back so fast good point.  
-ill fix the bit about the trigger button.  

69: How did Jack get there? If Jo was riding with Murphy, then what was Jack riding? Jo's still worked? Then why wasn't Jo riding hers or Jack and Jo riding together? The logistics of this section are unraveling. I don't even know what they're doing.
-hmmm?  
-let me know at what point I lost you so I can fix it in the script.
-There are 3 bikes total.  At some point Murphy breaks off.
-Jo’s bike is destroyed.
-Murphy leaves his bike for Jack.  
-Cindy and Murphy take the bike Jack set up.  
-Though I see what your saying, some of these details are unimportant.  But, you telling me where I lost you, will tell me where to start rewriting I guess.

71: You talk about "the train" yet this train and its orientation to the rail bikes has not been set up for this big escape scene. It's one of those things that I figure out if I flip back and forth, but I shouldn't have to do that. It needs to make sense the first time through. It may seem redundant, but you should name the people in the harness. At first glance it looked like Murphy was going to wait for someone to come back with another railbike and he wasn't going to ride in the harness. Also, need a setup for this explosion. Why did Jack's magic button blow up this train?

-okay.  I may have been too subtle.  
- Here’s what I have to set it up: Jack slowly gets up, grabs his back pack, and runs up the hill towards the train.
-too subtle?

73: Murphy's wife is what? This does not gibe with what happened earlier...if I may dictate:
pg 3: [Murphy] is with his wife Michelle...
pg 9: [Michelle] screams. Crack! The scream abruptly stops.
Pg 24: A woman's mangled and trampled body lies in the street. A bible falls limply from the woman's hand. Arm-band badge name reads: "Michelle Murphy"

If his wife is the vice-president and she is alive, you have some explaining to do.

-this is the line that’s confusing I think:
Harris: I'll cut to the chase, The Vice President’s location was revealed.  Satellite scans show…
Murphy: My wife, and now the commander in chief, why am I still…

-now I combine the ideas of vp’s location being revealed by jimmy, and the separate idea of Murphy’s wife passing.  
-so what I was aiming for: murphy’s wife is dead, murphy’s boss: vp is dead.  
-I’m going to rework the line to clarify, will that suffice, or is there more leading to this confusion.  

76: Why are we only just bringing up the trust of Murphy? Seems an odd issue to tackle now.

-I felt it was the first time that Jo really had a choice.  Sounds like it doesn’t fit, any suggestions on how to better deal with this if I should deal with it all.  

77: This may be cool to watch, but why are they doing it? What's going on? Also, what's with the conversation inside the airplane, but Jack and Jo jumped out already? Is this supposed to be V.O.? Needs a lot of clarified detail.

-I think this is a formatting problem.  What I was trying to do was have the very beginning of a conversation with Murphy and them in the helicopter.  Then I wanted it be voice over as they did the actions in the plan that Jack was talking about.  Should I have VO’d?

86: What Murphy asked for...huh?

-im looking through 85-86 is this the line: We need the launch protocol for sarin gas,and the intercontinental ballistic missile system.
-too specific?


98: Murphy says "I'm just going for the Doc's wife. You're free to do as you please, but I don't care bout 'em." Initially this line came off as he's going to resuce the wife and child, but he doesn't care what happens to them. As I sat back and considered this, I figure it has to do with his former relation to the unit that picked the pair up and that he doesn't care about that part of the operation any more. If this is correct, the line needs to be rewritten.

-how’s this: I'm just going for the Doc's wife.  You're free to do as you please, but I don't care bout the rest of 'em.

113: Murphy going on about starting a war in relation to his wife...when the hell did this happen? How did Jack lie? I seriously don't understand.

-this seems to be the monster issue.  
-the reason: they went to MEA base was to start the war.  
-I wanted people to wonder what was going on, but I wanted it to all come clear at this moment (cemetery moment).  
-Here’s my thinking please tell me where I go wrong for you
-Harris finds out that MEA is traitors sneaking soldiers to the US.
-Harris puts some plan into effect.  Murphy Jack stew and Jo all go to take care of it.
-they launch missiles.
-chinese pm is victim of explosion.
-battle result, Chinese planes blowing up MEA military targets.
-@the cemetery: revealed the purpose of Murphy, Jack, Jo, Stew at MeA base.  i.e. they were starting a war.  

120: The Untied States huh? I find some of your typos very amusing.

-HAHA, what a way to end it!

As to your general comment: He is a lead for the first part, though, and does a lot of good and it feels right for him to be the one leading, but when he takes a back seat for awhile, it's like he loses a lot of steam.  I was trying to follow the hero's journey, specifically refusal to the call.  The real turn over moment was supposed to be the train tracks, when he turns around.  Is he losing steam because I was keeping him from joining the mission, or is it later in the story.  Specifically the MEA base where he doesnt play a crucial role.  Basically im trying to pin down where he loses steam, so I cam pump it up a bit.  

Thanks for you time.  Appreciate your feedback.    


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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George Willson
Posted: June 4th, 2006, 11:09pm Report to Moderator
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Okay, I now understand the lie Jack told. However, the next issue come into why he would lie about it. Whether she was shot or trampled, how would that make a difference? Why lie about the way she died? It deceives the reader more than it does Murphy since the lie doesn't make sense. People lie for a reason, and for this lie to play off just right, he's gotta have a reason to do it.

86: The bit about the sarin gas and missiles. It is one of those requests that comes out of nowhere. I think this and some of the other scenes just need some setup. We need a big mission briefing where everything gets laid out for us so we know what is going on. There are clearly several mini-missions they require to accomplish their big goal, and I think giving us a run-down of the full scope of those missions would be helpful to clear up a lot of my confusion.

62: The victim tie-in. I caught this, and the characters are necessary in regards to the ending, but what is needed is a reason for these people to be rescued. I go back to the mission briefing I mentioned a moment ago. As the audience, we need to know why this stuff is going on. We need to know the importance of these people you've deemed worthy of taking up space in the script. They play into the script later, but why are they where they are instead of with Harris already. Give them a reason to be where they are, and a compelling need to send people out after them. Remember, your characters need to have existed before they show up the first time, and they need to exist after we no longer see them.

66-68: Just a cut back and forth between Murphy approahing and the other action should do this to show he didn't just appear.

69: The bikes. When I was reading it, I saw this happening. Jo's bike was stuck on the tracks. Jack had his bike and was running off when Jo was left. He comes back still toting his bike and they do the EMP thing. He runs off still carrying his bike. Jo's bike gets shot up. Jack's bike is also described as being beat up, leaving only Murphy's bike. That's how it read to me.

71: I reread this section with the train and specifically looked at the bit you pointed out. I can see that as a setup, but yeah, it's way too subtle. You shoudl describe this train that is sitting there and give it a specific characteristic we can identify later as "oh, that's the train Jack had to do something to earlier." There's a lot of space between now and seeing this train again.

73: Yes, we need that clarification. The way the line came off was that Murphy's wife is the vice-president and scans located where she currently is with the implication she is alive and not dead. I said what?

76: Murphy being trustworthy or not doesn't come up until the end as a tease, so either leave it out or play it up. Make us believe he is ticked to the point he might actually do the trick at the end.

77: I gathered that perhaps the plan was being dictated as we watch it carried out. It is a formatting issue more than anything. Basically, you start the chat in a briefing room or something and then continue it as V.O. as the action plays out. The way it is currently written it sounds like they are discussing this in the plane and then jump out to continue discussing it over their headsets, which did not work for the conversation that was going on.

98: I'm going into the prison block for the Doc's wife. I don't care about the rest of 'em. -- just anything to clarify that the "them" refers to the prisoners.

113: Murphy seems upset about having started a war. If he knew what he was doing, why is he upset about it? I can understand his being upset over unwillingly participating with the enemy, but with the explanation you gave, why would he be angry over doing what he felt was right?

For the hero's journey to work, he needs to be continuously called, but continually refuse for his own reasons. This refusal and his reasoning should be crystal clear to the audience, and they should even relate to his refusal. I recall Murphy refusing to do the HALO jump, but that seemed more of being afraid of it than relating to his real issue: maybe coping with the loss of his wife? He needs some internal reason to back out of the limelight, but something clear.

It seems the real keyword here is clarity. Everything needs to be very, very clear. Overwrite it to begin with to make sure everything is there and then cut it back. But you need to ensure every point can be understood, and that's the main weakness you have right now.


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Jaykur22
Posted: June 5th, 2006, 12:03am Report to Moderator
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*Oh by the way i edited my post re: the stealing of scripts, and Rapture's right that was what I was talking about.  I'll eventually get this back up on SS, I've had so many great review/critiques that's it constantly changing drafts, and it hasn't been "done" yet.

Back to my story here:

Thanks for you quick I reply.  I didn't even see this problem re: lie, and your confusion wth his wife.  Glad it happened now, while I can fix it.

I know I'm a chattie cathy, but whenever someone reads my stuff, I squeeze 'em for information.  I work best after I bounce ideas off of people, especially when they are the ones who brought issues to my attention.  So, if you find it annoying, don't feel obligated to answer right away, or at all, whenever you get around to it, would be greatly appreciated.  

Obviously you've given me a lot to work with...

You wote: Okay, I now understand the lie Jack told. However, the next issue come into why he would lie about it. Whether she was shot or trampled, how would that make a difference? Why lie about the way she died? It deceives the reader more than it does Murphy since the lie doesn't make sense. People lie for a reason, and for this lie to play off just right, he's gotta have a reason to do it.

-first off, do i need to add anything to carify the lie being told, and how that fit together?
-re: justifying the lie: I see what your saying.  Gonna have to brainstorm this one a bit.  My initial thinking was just that gun shot would seem less painless and therefore more acceptable then being stomped to death.  But I could make it a better/stronger reason.
-Ive been toying with the idea that maybe Jack says he lied because he thought they could use his help and jack knew Murphy would never help them with their mission if Murphy knew the mob killed his wife.  
-if you think of something better fire it over cause im struggling.  I'll have to sleep on it.  

you wrote: "Your characters require a little development still since everything about them in ensconsed in the plot. They have no life outside of this story, and that is the real division between good and great characters. They need something beyond the plot you've created to give them a life and something for the audience to wonder about once the film is over. Their status after the script is unknown. We know they exist, but what are they doing? Most of your characters are decent in the central plot development, but when you back up and see if they existed before the story and will exist after the story, they just don't. Something to think about."

-I'm wondering how to fix this.  I see how this comment relates to the Satus Agents (the people they pick up on the train tracks)-and you've given me a great solution on how to solve it/ but does it relate to the main characters as well?  I thought I dealt with this by showing Murphy's ordinary world in the beginning, and shwing jack and jo as students, harris as a teachers.  Was this not enough, or do you have a suggestion for improving them.  Think I went about it the wrong way?

I like the idea of a mission briefing to explain the railbike pick up mission.  Good point, I can see how you'd be confused.  

I'm hesitant to explain with a mission briefing why the group goes to the MEA base.  Primarily because I couldnt explain the MEA scene in the first mission breifing, because it's not yet revealed that they have to go to the MEA base, which means I'd have to do it twice.  I see why it be good idea, but first I'd be afraid it get repetitive, and 2nd it may interrupt the faster pace.  I'm thinking I keep the audience wondering what's going on, and then at the cemetary have it all come clear.  

For example it go something liek this:
Mission briefing
they go get the satus agents
train explodes
etc

then
Harris gets intel on the tankers
he sends the group into the MEA base (audience doesnt know why)
the group blows up the chinese pm's residence/kills the invading army
...
eventually we get to the cemetary
Murphy is pissed.  He says he never would've started that war, if he'd known his wife had been crushed by the people Satus was trying to protect.  He says the only reason he went along was for revenge, he didn't care about their stupid cause.  (audience clued in on why the group was there)

Basically I just wanted to bounce the idea off you and see what you thought.  Maybe it sucks?

Last one:

You wrote:For the hero's journey to work, he needs to be continuously called, but continually refuse for his own reasons. This refusal and his reasoning should be crystal clear to the audience, and they should even relate to his refusal. I recall Murphy refusing to do the HALO jump, but that seemed more of being afraid of it than relating to his real issue: maybe coping with the loss of his wife? He needs some internal reason to back out of the limelight, but something clear.

-I'm thinking I need to beef up Murphy's role in this set of scenes.  By now he should have completed his hero transition, so he shouldn't be refusing anymore.  He should be making things happen.  Agree?  Am i way off?

PS: i've had some people mention they didn't feel the antagonist worked so well.  What are you thoughts if any re: that aspect of the story.  Is it too weak, does it work, etc.


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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George Willson
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Quoted from Jaykur22
*Oh by the way i edited my post re: the stealing of scripts, and Rapture's right that was what I was talking about.  I'll eventually get this back up on SS, I've had so many great review/critiques that's it constantly changing drafts, and it hasn't been "done" yet.


Yeah, understood that which is why I deleted my subsequent post. I was actually the one who found that disc online.


Quoted from Jaykur22
-first off, do i need to add anything to carify the lie being told, and how that fit together?
-re: justifying the lie: I see what your saying.  Gonna have to brainstorm this one a bit.  My initial thinking was just that gun shot would seem less painless and therefore more acceptable then being stomped to death.  But I could make it a better/stronger reason.
-Ive been toying with the idea that maybe Jack says he lied because he thought they could use his help and jack knew Murphy would never help them with their mission if Murphy knew the mob killed his wife.  
-if you think of something better fire it over cause im struggling.  I'll have to sleep on it.  


You definitely need to have Jo point out that she was trampled by the mob so that we know right from the beginning what the lie is. For him to want to lie, he needs to make it crystal clear that he believes the mob is the enemy and they are who he is fighting against. He needs to hold this belief throughout the story and never falter from it. If he clings to this belief, then it will make that third act to rescue the mob that much more powerful. But anytime this lie emerges, it needs to relate directly to the mob verus whoever they need Murphy to think killed his wife, and he needs to identify this mystery shooter and always go after them...maybe Jack could give him an ID. If he clings to the memory of his wife and the method of her death, this will work.


Quoted from Jaykur22
you wrote: "Your characters require a little development still since everything about them in ensconsed in the plot.

-I'm wondering how to fix this.  I see how this comment relates to the Satus Agents (the people they pick up on the train tracks)-and you've given me a great solution on how to solve it/ but does it relate to the main characters as well?  I thought I dealt with this by showing Murphy's ordinary world in the beginning, and shwing jack and jo as students, harris as a teachers.  Was this not enough, or do you have a suggestion for improving them.  Think I went about it the wrong way?


No, that was good for a little backstory. You might also tell how they relate to each other. Are they in a relationship? They never act like it. What are they doing when the story ends? Do they have a future together? For Harris, this will probably be fine, although might be nice to know if he had a relationship and where he plans to disappear to...I'd like to know where he would disappear to before the final scene. Make it hypothetical, so it is clear when it happens. Just think about these people as real people and what decisions they must have made in their lives to end up where they are.


Quoted from Jaykur22
I like the idea of a mission briefing to explain the railbike pick up mission.  Good point, I can see how you'd be confused.  

I'm hesitant to explain with a mission briefing why the group goes to the MEA base.  Primarily because I couldnt explain the MEA scene in the first mission breifing, because it's not yet revealed that they have to go to the MEA base, which means I'd have to do it twice.  I see why it be good idea, but first I'd be afraid it get repetitive, and 2nd it may interrupt the faster pace.  I'm thinking I keep the audience wondering what's going on, and then at the cemetary have it all come clear.  


It's okay to keep the details vague. We just need something to go on. We need a goal of some kind. Why are we here? To do this. Obviously there is a bigger picture, but we don't see it yet.

For example: Attack of the Clones: Obi-Wan Kenobi goes from planet to planet searching for a bounty hunter. When he is captured, he is rescued by a large number of clones. This attack begins a war between the Republic and Dooku's resistance. What is really going on? The whole thing was orchestrated to take over the galaxy.

You can keep the audience guessing and put it all together at the end with a true reason it all happened. All the players need to know is why they are there at that moment. Let the big picture come out later.


Quoted from Jaykur22
For example it go something liek this:
Mission briefing
they go get the satus agents
train explodes
etc

then
Harris gets intel on the tankers
he sends the group into the MEA base (audience doesnt know why)
the group blows up the chinese pm's residence/kills the invading army
...
eventually we get to the cemetary
Murphy is pissed.  He says he never would've started that war, if he'd known his wife had been crushed by the people Satus was trying to protect.  He says the only reason he went along was for revenge, he didn't care about their stupid cause.  (audience clued in on why the group was there)

Basically I just wanted to bounce the idea off you and see what you thought.  Maybe it sucks?


The audience should know what the mission is there, but not clued in on the big picture. Just tell them what Murphy knows: they are there for revenge on the Chinese for attacking America. They are supposed to launch some missiles at China. Murphy is on board with that and loving it, so he's in. Jack and Jo might know the big picture reason, but we only get Murphy's info. He have to have a stake in what's going on and unless we know what's going on, we feel like we were left out of the loop, and no one likes that.


Quoted from Jaykur22
-I'm thinking I need to beef up Murphy's role in this set of scenes.  By now he should have completed his hero transition, so he shouldn't be refusing anymore.  He should be making things happen.  Agree?  Am i way off?

PS: i've had some people mention they didn't feel the antagonist worked so well.  What are you thoughts if any re: that aspect of the story.  Is it too weak, does it work, etc.


Well, you've got something good in all of this that I've noticed. It actually gives a firm division to the acts, defines Murphy's characters and gives him direction. Your first act break is the discovery his wife is dead. He is told a story by Jack to get him on their side as opposed to the side he professes to be on. He hates the mobs, but learning his wife wasn't killed by the mobs, he is ok with helping them.

I think he should learn that Jack lied before he goes to rescue the people. He should learn his wife was killed by the mob, and then be sent to rescue those same people he wanted picked up. He is forced to accept that the ones in captivity are not the ones that killed his wife. She was killed in the pandemonium of what was going on. His acceptance of the mob as people will be a struggle for him to overcome, and overcoming it will make his mission that much stronger. The Doc's wife will force him to view the mob as just people instead of an enemy.

Sure, he can bitch out Jack later at the cemetary when he learns the full plan, but this tidbit will get him going and give us something to think about.


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George Willson
Posted: June 5th, 2006, 11:37am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Jaykur22
PS: i've had some people mention they didn't feel the antagonist worked so well.  What are you thoughts if any re: that aspect of the story.  Is it too weak, does it work, etc.


I realised as I was driving home last night that I failed to answer this one, which is just as well because it gave me some time to think about it. While you have the Chinese minister that Harris yells at and even launches a weapon at bad news: he can't be the antagonist. He's Harris's antag, but not the main one because Murphy is the main character. The closest antag I found is the Jimmy character who was killed during the bike-EMP-train battle.

An antagonist needs to be someone who represents the opposite of your protagonist, or Murphy. Jimmy is a perfect candidate for this since he turned early on, and is easily "the enemy" after that in Murphy's eyes. What does this mean? This means Jimmy cannot die in the helicopter crash. He must be defeated by Murphy specifically. He must be the final obstacle in Murphy overcoming whatever you've set him up to overcome in the story. Once Jimmy is defeated, then Murphy's journey is over.

There is no other person, really, who comes close to being an antagonist. An organization cannot be an antag; they must be represented by a single person. I thought about your Chinese minister, but a) he plays a minor role and b) he doesn't even interact with Murphy. I considered everyone else I could think of, and no one filled that role completely. Faceless soldiers don't count (Ok, Aliens can be said to be an exception, but oh wait! The army of Aliens did get a single representative that Ripley had to defeat: the Queen).

My recommendation her is to expand jimmy's role into being the American representative of the Chinese incursion. To be real, he already is to an extent, but with a little tweaking, he can be your antagonist. Murphy already has a score to settle with him...


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