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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Unproduced Screenplay Discussion    Thriller Scripts  ›  Forefathers Moderators: bert
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  Author    Forefathers  (currently 5203 views)
Don
Posted: February 11th, 2006, 1:11pm Report to Moderator
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So, what are you writing?

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Forefathers by Jake Hulse - Thriller - The catastrophe did not come from above or below, it came from within; American citizens have taken to the streets in the most violent riots this country has ever experienced.   Sensing weakness, a foreign super power begins to test the dying empire’s fraying borders. Forefathers a modern day action-thriller about American economic collapse, and Lieutenant Colonel Walter Murphy’s struggle to protect two members of a top secret government organization charged with the task of rebuilding a crippled American government.130 pages - pdf, format

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Don  -  May 1st, 2006, 10:08pm
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Jaykur22
Posted: February 11th, 2006, 1:50pm Report to Moderator
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Hello All

I've rewritten this a couple times, the newest version is posted, I've also rewritten the logline:

FOREFATHERS; an action-thriller about American economic collapse, and Lieutenant Colonel Walter Murphy’s struggle to hold together the pieces of our once great nation.

The catastrophe did not come from above or below, it came from within.  American citizens have taken to the streets in the most violent riots this country has ever experienced.  Sensing weakness, foreign militaries begin to test the dying empire’s fraying borders.  Murphy must protect two members of Team Satus, a top secret government organization charged with the task of securing and reconstructing American infrastructure, if our nation is to have any chance at survival.

If you'd like to do a script exchange, I'd gladly read your stuff in return.  Please just let me know what you'd like me to check out.



Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"

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Jaykur22  -  April 1st, 2006, 1:01pm
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thegardenstate89
Posted: February 11th, 2006, 3:10pm Report to Moderator
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Hey, I'm starting to read you're script. I'll let you know what I think within the next 24 hours. One thing I just wanted to say is I had/have an idea like yours I've been toying around with, with america getting invaded, though a very different story. But I'm glad to know there's somebody else on this planet who digs the premise too. I'll be reading it over the course of the next day and will get back to you then.
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Jaykur22
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Great news...let me know if there is a script of yours you'd like/prefer me to read so I can return the favor.

Jaykur


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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greg
Posted: February 12th, 2006, 1:31am Report to Moderator
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I'm 40 pages in, and since this is your first script I'm taking notes of pretty specific things to help you in the future.  I don't know if I'll finish tomorrow, but expect a review this week.


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Jaykur22
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Thanks a lot, I really appreciate it...sorry about the newbie mistakes I really did try to get it right.l

Jaykur


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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greg
Posted: February 12th, 2006, 5:46pm Report to Moderator
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Oh Hi

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Alright, so since this is your first screenplay I went into some specific details about certain things.  Don't be discouraged by what I say because none of this is supposed to offend you in any way.  If it makes you feel better, there were no instances in this story where I was thinking "oh my god, this story stinks."  So here are my notes and below is my review.

SPOILERS THROUGHOUT

NEWSPAPER HEADLINES: May want to consider an Insert for these

The Narrator's speeches are far too long.  The one on page 4 covers almost the entire page!

Page 6: Soldier 1(AJ) Soldier 2(Parker).  Don't do this.  Simply introduce them in the description as AJ and PARKER, or, since I don't know if they play bigger part yet, SOLDIER 1 and SOLDIER 2, or descriptive titles such as FAT SOLDIER and UGLY SOLDIER.

Page all over: Avoid capitalizing action words.  You can put shtuff like BANG BANG BANG!  But MACHINE GUN FIRE should be small cased.

Page 8: Thus far you've worked in alot of time speeds and technical shtuff.  I think some of this may be okay, but I'd consult a guide or ask on the board.

Page 13: Caller ID reads 000-000-0000.  I'm just curious if this is based on fact, cause it's a pretty neat aspect.

**Page 15: "A man(the president) in a suit and tie hangs(noose) from the doorway of the White House." Since this is your first script, this is a perfect example of things you shouldn't do.  Never use parenthesis unless it verifies some sort of key information piece(for example, in Scorsese Club I put (pronounced Steven) after his character is introduced, since there's a whole fiasco on the pronounciation of his name.

Suit and tie...the president is always in a suit and tie and you're slugline already says that we're inside the White House, so this is how you can rewrite this sentence: The president hangs from the doorway with a noose around his neck.  That simple.  Don't over complicate things, you want to keep it as simple and short as possible.

Page 16: Murphy: "...My men call me...nhgg"  What's nhgg?

Page 16: Jack's babbling is a nice touch

Page 18: That CSU thing is a big no-no.  For one, I didn't know what a CSU was, but you can just say it's a large artificially intelligent robotic tank or something of that sort.  Never put in gigantic things such as that, cause it looks like it came from a dictionary, unless you wrote it which makes you sound very sophisticated.  In general, keep your description paragraphs between 4-5 lines in length.

Page 26: "War on Terrorism" hahahaha

Page 32: You can just use SUPER for subtitles.

Page 35: ahhh another gigantic textbook description!

Page 37: The two shake their heads up and down.  That would be nodding, you can't really shake your head up and down

Page 39: "The president, ashamed, sighs, the weight of millions of lives and the future of a nation weighs on his conscious."  Big rule, write only what the camera can see.  If this was a movie, nobody would know that line even happened.

Page 49: "...with a raging inferno connected to our only means of escape?" hahaha, sorry, the word "inferno" always cracks me up.

Page 49: Murphy slaps him and tells him to stop being a bitch?  That's almost a contradiction!  Big tough army guy, I think he'd shove or even punch if you like, but not a slap.

Page 50: There's a C.S.U. here, and most of the other times you refer to it as CSU.  Don't go back and forth, stick with one.

Page 51: "Pulls out a pack of Marlboro cigarettes." Depending on what you want to do with this story in the future, I've read that you shouldn't use brand names unless you get the copyright mumbo jumbo worked out.  "pulls out a pack of cigarettes" works the same way.  That's something I'm working on in my rewrite of TSC.

Page 64: Ah, I was wondering when the opening characters were gonna be explained.

Page 70: I don't know if this was on Shelton's cliche list, but in every single movie the enemy helicopter could be looking to shoot a group of rebels or something, and one person goes running out and every time the chopper follows them when it's obviously a distraction method and usually the least important person.  I'm not saying you should get rid of it because it's actually pretty well written, but maybe consider some other method or strategy.

Page 73: When using a radio or something, you can call the person on the other line SOLDIER or something but put a (VO) next to their name

Page 83: "now don't fuck up" to conclude Harris' speech.  Yeah, I know this is a desperate time of war, but I think this guy should be giving them confidence.

Page 88: HIGHWAY TRANSPORT CHASE SCENE.  Sluglines are just the setting, they don't contain the scene description.  You could simply put EXT.  HIGHWAY - DAY

Page 97: The explosion sprays bloody chunks all over the American's face and body. Ewww.  Nice!

Page 101: I believe the standard montage method is as such:

MONTAGE

--Blah

--Blah

--Blah

--Imagine a few more blahs

END MONTAGE

Page 104: I've seen this several times in recent pages where the dialogue structure is all screwy...don't know what's going on there.

Page 111: I think you should take out the execution, it damages Murphy's character.  Right now I'm on the edge of liking him and that brutal killing really makes him unlikeable.

Page 120: Murphy's "luck" speech is well written.

Page 122: Nickle for a paper?  I guess this is kind of like the country jump starting again after that huge depression.  nice!

Page 123: Unless I missed something, what happend to the vice president and the cabinet and all of those other politicians?  There's a huge line of backups for president in case tragedy after tragedy may strike.

Page 125: Okay, his speech is 2 pages long.  That's TWO MINUTES.  What you could do is have a montage which shows America rebuilding and people going back to work and what not.  But that speech is far far far too long.

Page 128: Ok, I guess he's not president after all hahaha.  I seriously thought he was dead, so that's a nice turn around.

Now, pat yourself on the back.  For a first script this is exceptional!  The format was close to standard, just some things that you need to remember which I explained above.  

I love the concept, mostly because I believe something like this can happen and it's pretty scary when you think about it.  One day there may be a complete collapse and the Chinese invade or the Russians and so on.  You do an excellent job by including the political and economic aspects of it, so that part is well done.

The characters I'm iffy about.  They all had their fun quirks here and there, but they lack depth.  I can see Murphy as the Tom Sizemore character from "Black Hawk Down," but after he executed that Saudi Arabian I was kind of disgusted.  Jack's babbling is a nice touch and I found Cindy to be likeable, but again, it's the lack of depth where we lose interest in them.  Maybe one of them has anger problems and frequently explodes in namecalling or something.

The action was excellent.  Not much to criticize there.  One thing that you need to avoid is using precise numbers in your descriptions.  There were so many instances where you used "100 yards away" or "2.5 liters of liquid" or something like that.  Use descriptive words, avoid the numbers.

Why didn't Europe come to our aid?  That was one element which I think should have been involved.  If this were to happen, even despite how many countries dislike us now, I think someone would come to our aid, specifically England of all countries.  

Some of the dialogue, actually alot of the dialogue is overly wordy.  Say some of it out loud.  If you get tired of talking then you probably know there's too much.  That speech at the end is a fine example and it's often a newbie mistake.  I used to do that all the time too, so don't worry about it.

If this were made into a feature film on the way it's written right now, I think it's target audience would be limited.  A film like this where America collapses and there's war going on everywhere would reach out to a large audience, but I think you restrict by using fuck alot.  I suggest taking out many of its usages.  I believe the PG-13 rating today allows for 3 uses of the word fuck.  

Overall, for a first timer, this was very well written.  Great concept, pretty well executed.  I hope my comments help you for future rewrites and future stories.  Well done!



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Jaykur22
Posted: February 12th, 2006, 10:19pm Report to Moderator
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First off Doc, thanks for you feedback, awesome, I‘m glad it didn‘t stink.  In no way am I offended you bring up some great points and now I have some direction on how I can improve.  I’ve got a lot of work ahead of me which is great, thanks for your detailed feedback and patients with a newbie.  Now if I may I have a few questions/responses…

1.  Did the beginning grab you?
2.  Were twists in the story sufficient to hold attention?



Quoted Text
   “NEWSPAPER HEADLINES: May want to consider an Insert for these”

     -ok, I’m unfamiliar with usage on this, did you use this in a script that I can look at for an example?
     -did you like the newspaper bit or was it boring?
     


Quoted Text
   The Narrator's speeches are far too long. The one on page 4 covers almost the entire page!

     -dang, I was afraid of that…I have way too much to say…Any suggestions on what to cut or keep…what did you care about/not care about?


Quoted Text
   Page 13: Caller ID reads 000-000-0000. I'm just curious if this is based on fact, cause it's a pretty neat aspect.

     -Based on fact…yes.


Quoted Text
   Page 16: Jack's babbling is a nice touch

     -good I was concerned humor would be an unwelcome addition.  


Quoted Text
   Page 18: That CSU thing is a big no-no. For one, I didn't know what a CSU was, but you can just say it's a large artificially intelligent robotic tank or something of that sort. Never put in gigantic things such as that, cause it looks like it came from a dictionary, unless you wrote it which makes you sound very sophisticated. In general, keep your description paragraphs between 4-5 lines in length.

     -ok slightly confused.  Should I have not used the term “CSU” or is it that description I wrote (too long.  I’m thinking the latter but I wanna be sure.


Quoted Text
   Page 26: "War on Terrorism" Hashanah

     -good, I’m hoping that doesn’t offend people.


Quoted Text
   Page 32: You can just use SUPER for subtitles.

     -ught…dumb newbie question…did you use this in a script that I can look at for an example?  Or is there a resource I can look this up on…?


Quoted Text
   Page 35: ahhh another gigantic textbook description!

     -haha, consider it gone.  


Quoted Text
   Page 37: The two shake their heads up and down. That would be nodding, you can't really shake your head up and down.

     -your to doc, you’d know.


Quoted Text
   Page 39: "The president, ashamed, sighs, the weight of millions of lives and the future of a nation weighs on his conscious." Big rule, write only what the camera can see. If this was a movie, nobody would know that line even happened.

     -okay, I see your point, I pose a question I’ve seen this in some scripts where descriptions you wouldn’t necessarily hear are written in a similar fashion.  Is it just a matter of  my name doesn’t end in Cameron, or Spielberg??



Quoted Text
   Page 64: Ah, I was wondering when the opening characters were gonna be explained.

     -question: does this not work?  Do you need to know earlier?  I wanted to create a situation where the audience is like what’s going on, and I slowly reveal the story, and the back story.

To Be Continued


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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Jaykur22
Posted: February 12th, 2006, 10:20pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted Text
   Page 70: I don't know if this was on Shelton's cliche list, but in every single movie the enemy helicopter could be looking to shoot a group of rebels or something, and one person goes running out and every time the chopper follows them when it's obviously a distraction method and usually the least important person. I'm not saying you should get rid of it because it's actually pretty well written, but maybe consider some other method or strategy.

     -haha, good point.  I’ve been caught.  



Quoted Text
   Page 83: "now don't f*** up" to conclude Harris' speech. Yeah, I know this is a desperate time of war, but I think this guy should be giving them confidence.

     -good point


Quoted Text
   Page 104: I've seen this several times in recent pages where the dialogue structure is all screwy...don't know what's going on there.

     -yah that’s weird…gotta check out what I did.


Quoted Text
   Page 111: I think you should take out the execution, it damages Murphy's character. Right now I'm on the edge of liking him and that brutal killing really makes him unlikeable.

     -That’s what I was afraid of.  I love the scene though, what did you think about the scene itself?


Quoted Text
   Page 122: Nickle for a paper? I guess this is kind of like the country jump starting again after that huge depression. nice!

     -Great…that’s what I was trying to show.


Quoted Text
   Page 123: Unless I missed something, what happend to the vice president and the cabinet and all of those other politicians? There's a huge line of backups for president in case tragedy after tragedy may strike.

     -ok….  Now this might come across as argumentative not my goal, so bare with me.  I was thinking the same thing a couple days ago so I threw a line in there that says:

“Everything happened so fast
that the emergency evacuation
order for Congress was never
given, we were taken
completely by surprise.”

*Is it not enough/cop out, or did you miss it??


Quoted Text
   Page 125: Okay, his speech is 2 pages long. That's TWO MINUTES. What you could do is have a montage which shows America rebuilding and people going back to work and what not. But that speech is far far far too long.

     -awesome idea…I’m gonna have to do a combo shorten and montage.  


Quoted Text
   Page 128: Ok, I guess he's not president after all hahaha. I seriously thought he was dead, so that's a nice turn around.

     -you didn’t see it coming?  That’s my big twist…


Quoted Text
   Now, pat yourself on the back. For a first script this is exceptional! The format was close to standard, just some things that you need to remember which I explained above.

     -thanks for those I will add them in.


Quoted Text
   I love the concept, mostly because I believe something like this can happen and it's pretty scary when you think about it. One day there may be a complete collapse and the Chinese invade or the Russians and so on. You do an excellent job by including the political and economic aspects of it, so that part is well done.

     -It is very scary I agree, I wanted this to act as a warning for our generation…on the political/economic aspect…there is a school scene, where basically I teach the audience Marxism in 2 minutes or less…the bit on controller controlled and those trapped in the middle.  Did it fit or did you find it unnecessary?


Quoted Text
   The characters I'm iffy about. They all had their fun quirks here and there, but they lack depth. I can see Murphy as the Tom Sizemore character from "Black Hawk Down," but after he executed that Saudi Arabian I was kind of disgusted. Jack's babbling is a nice touch and I found Cindy to be likeable, but again, it's the lack of depth where we lose interest in them. Maybe one of them has anger problems and frequently explodes in namecalling or something.

     -this is what I feel a newbie will struggle the most with at first.  That being character development, especially being an action movie it’s even harder.  How much do they need?? (weird question I know)  But are they all totally blah, or do they need just a little bit more?  You’re right Murph=pure badass, Jack he’s the wuss, Cindy strong independent type.  I’m thinking depth comes not from their stereotypes but from their weaknesses as people?  I don’t know I’m struggling not with your observation but with solutions.  


Quoted Text
   Why didn't Europe come to our aid? That was one element which I think should have been involved. If this were to happen, even despite how many countries dislike us now, I think someone would come to our aid, specifically England of all countries.

     -again not argumentative just wondering…Basically I thought the same thing it’s a hole in my story, maybe I’d just need to have the audience accept it, or I could make the admiral English.  I did have a line with Harris talks with the President
“they
don’t need us and they’ll
remove us from the cycle of
trade.
30
Other countries will cut
themselves off from us to
lessen the blow and that will
only aggravate our grave
situation. Everything will
collapse in a domino effect
of unemployment, food
shortages, and finally ending
in mass rioting.”

Not enough??  Not plausible?



Quoted Text
   If this were made into a feature film on the way it's written right now, I think it's target audience would be limited. A film like this where America collapses and there's war going on everywhere would reach out to a large audience, but I think you restrict by using f*** a lot. I suggest taking out many of its usages. I believe the PG-13 rating today allows for 3 uses of the word f***.

-yeah I have a bad mouth…good point.  3 though gosh, I better use them well.

Again I appreciate your time

jaykur


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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greg
Posted: February 12th, 2006, 11:33pm Report to Moderator
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Ok, the quotation thingy is being all screwy so I'm gonna try and take this in order.

1. The beginning was well done, especially the part with the newspaper headlines because I think that's a good time to put opening credits in if this were to be produced.

2. An INSERT is used when you want the camera to focus on something, such as a poster or bulletin board or newspaper headline.

INSERT: NEWSPAPER HEADLINE

AMERICA AT WAR

BACK TO SCENE

3. The problem with the narration is that it's well written and flows nicely, but you need to be able to take out shtuff.  I'd probably try taking out the specifics of corporate accountability, maybe try to work that in later in the story, because I noticed that most of what was said in the opening naration was eventually repeated somewhere else in the script.

4. You can use CSU, just leave out that chunky definition of it.

5. SUPER: SAN CARLOS, CALIFORNIA
or
SUPER: FIVE YEARS LATER
Scorsese Club used both inserts and supers and a montage

6. Unless you were named Cameron or Spielberg with unlimited amounts of money at your disposal, you shouldn't use the poetic shtuff that you can't see.

7. Regarding opening characters, the placement was fine.  Don't worry about it.

8. The scene(in regards to execution) was fine, just change around that one part.

9. The vice president thing...it could be a time of war, intergalactic aliens can come down from Planet Ooga Booga with their laser heat rays, but you're still gonna have a hard time convincing the audience that during all the mayhem they appoint a professor as President of the United States.

10. To flesh out your action characters, take John McClane(Die Hard series) for example.  An alcoholic jerk with temper tantrums, that made for some fun entertainment.  Or you have Chris Burnett(Behind Enemy Lines), a cocky son of a bitch who eventually is in the fight for his life and needs to step it up.  Jack Sparrow(Pirates of the Caribbean).  He was a goofy alcoholic etc.  If you want the basic stereotype of an action hero, watch Christian Slater in Broken Arrow.  Tough guy goes through a million explosions and stylized fight sequences, gets the shit beaten out of him, and still comes out alive and saves Denver from a nuclear explosion.  That's what you want to avoid.

11. Again, with the foreign aid thing, it's just not believable.  America is the backbone for so many other countries.  If there's a conflict, attack, natural disaster or pretend nuclear weapons, the United States is obligated to help out, and I don't buy the fact that even if we are the middle man then we'd just be forgotten.


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Martin
Posted: February 15th, 2006, 11:02am Report to Moderator
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Jay,

Just so you know, I haven't forgotten. I'm about halfway through and I'm making a lot of notes. I'm pretty busy atm but hopefully I'll get a review up by the end of the week.
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Martin
Posted: February 20th, 2006, 2:25pm Report to Moderator
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Jay, apologies for the delay on this one. I've had a hectic week. I'll post the first part of my notes and hopefully finish the review in the next couple of days.

I haven't read Greg's comments so apologies if this is repeated info.

Page 3: The narration is good but too long. Try to break it up with
actions or images.

How can people look 'almost' dirty?

Pages 4 and 5: The narration is too long again. Break it up with your
description of how the city is changed.

Page 5: Typo- MUNUMENT

You have a few 'we sees' in your description that could be easily removed.

Page 6: you have 'shear' instead of 'sheer'

I like your descriptions of the mob and the combat. Sometimes a little
wordy, but I could visualize it.

Just call them AJ and PARKER

Page 9: If it as a voice "get down Mr. president" you should have a
character heading.

Page 10: Try and keep the professor's speech short, or break it up
with description. You have line-breaks in-between his dialogue. This
is incorrect. To denote a pause, use elipsis (...)

It seems strange that Harris is dealing directly with the President.
Also, who uses 3.5 inch floppy disks? This ain't the 1980s

Page 15- lose the parenthesis in your description, just tell us what
we need to know.


Page 18- Describing the CSU- only tell us what we can see. How do we know it fires a black paralysis serum? We learn about this later anyway so you can cut a lot of this description.

Page 23: Cindy is down to her bra already? I like where this is going lol

Page 25: She's down to her boy shorts haha. You don't waste much time.
I'm not sure if this is necessary though.

You said somewhere that this was an Action-Comedy. So far, I don't see
it that way. Action movies usually have elements of comedy e.g. Die
Hard, but I wouldn't call Die Hard an Action-Comedy. Here, you have a
very gritty opening but you seem to be going for a lighthearted tone
with Jake's babbling etc. I'm not entirely sure it works.

Page 26-27: Watch out for long speeches. Harris is a professor so he
talks that way, granted. But in this case, I'd get straight to the
layman's terms.

Page 29- the President speaks twice with no action in-between. Add
action description or merge this dialogue.

Consider your use of (BEAT) in dialogue. You often use it for a short
pause. Use three periods instead "..."

Page 30 "our development as a people be lost" is this intentional, or
are you missing the word 'will'?

Page 34- Again you have two consecutive dialogues from Harris with
nothing in-between.

They have a thumb-print recognition on the door, but a voice activated
elevator with a password. With all this technology wouldn't it just be
voice recognition? Anyone can overhear a password.

Page 35- you have almost a whole page of description. Break it up or
people will simply stop reading. Screenplays are all about white space
on the page.

General note: avoid passive voice in your description e.g. "Jack is
staring" becomes "Jack stares"

Watch your punctuation in dialogue otherwise your meaning is reversed
"and I'm glad those pieces of shit killed my men" A comma makes all
the difference to this line.

The lack of commas in you description is becoming a distraction. You need to work on that.

So far I'm enjoying it although I'm not sure where it's going. You have some good ideas and I like the way you move back and forth through time. It works quite well. It feels like a first draft though. There are a lot of long descriptions and speeches that need to be cut down. You want your screenplay to read quickly and trimming your descriptions will help.

I am a bit confused by the tone so far. I'm still not sure if the comedy works given the circumstances your characters face. This opinion may change by the time I'm finished
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Jaykur22
Posted: February 20th, 2006, 4:56pm Report to Moderator
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I appreciate your time and you comments...though I've put a fair amount of work into it it will seem like a first draft because I'm new...

Thank you for your initial feedback I now have some things to go through and look for so that I can avoid them in later drafts.  You feedback is extremely helpful

Jaykur


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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rymatt
Posted: February 25th, 2006, 10:54am Report to Moderator
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This is a very good first script and it would make a great movie. Very enjoyable. Kepp on writting.
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Jaykur22
Posted: February 25th, 2006, 11:54am Report to Moderator
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Thanks for the read rymatt...

I'd like to pose a question to anyone really:

1.  What are your thoughts on the short description, I'm considering, using it in my query letter?

Please be painfully honest if it suck just say so.


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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Martin
Posted: February 27th, 2006, 11:42am Report to Moderator
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Hey Jay,

I finally got around to finishing this.

When I said it felt like a first draft, I wasn't criticizing. It's obvious you've put a lot of time and effort into this. The reason I said that is because the script feels like it needs to be streamlined..

There is a lot of good stuff in there. Some strong dialogue and some great ideas. I really liked the CSU stalking them through the streets, for example. And the concept of America being invaded is an interesting one.

The main problem (i think) is that you have a lot of lengthy dialogue scenes and lengthy descriptions that slow the reader down. If a script doesn't read quickly and maintain interest, a producer is likely to stop reading.

Which is why, in all honesty, I don't think you're ready to query this just yet. I'd suggest a thorough rewrite to really tighten it up. Strip your story down to what's important and cut out the fluff.

One thing that could improve this script is a clear protagonist. You have a bunch of characters but I wasn't really rooting for any of them, except maybe Harris.

Some of your action descriptions are excellent and your dialogue is good, but overly verbose at times.

As far as concept goes, I think you picked something way too ambitious for a first script. You write your action well, but sometimes the characters get lost amid the plot. I think your rewrite should focus much more on the characters and their individual arcs.

I made a few notes along the way:

Pg 99-100, Good couple of scenes with Harris. A nice punchline "there's no-one left to tell"

pg 105 - your dialogue format is a bit messed up here.

The scene with Murphy and the Saudi soldier seemed a bit extreme and a tad cliched. It definitely changed my opinion of Murphy's character and not in a good way.

Pg 113: I'd have thought Harris would know that sarin is odorless and invisible. Perhaps you could turn this exchange around and have someone ask Harris.

120 - good dialogue between Murphy and Jack. I'm still unsure about Murphy's character after he executed that soldier though.

pg 121- you have three dialogues from Jack in a row. You could do it like this instead "Hello... where?... one second"

Harris' speech is probably the longest I've ever seen in a screenplay. It's like 3 pages! You gotta trim that down.


Overall, this is a solid first script and you've shown you have talent as a writer, but there is room for improvement. You have the foundation of a good script.

Apologies for the delay in writing this review. I hope it helps in some way.
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Jaykur22
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Dr. Mabuse

Thank you very much for your time...your ideas and suggestions will be taken and put to good use.  

I've been working on shortening the dialogue (it's a common complaint), consider it done.  

As to the the lengthy description I'm going to have to read an action script to see how it's supposed to be done I'm thinking about "The Rock" any other suggestions??

I see what your saying about the protagonist but alas I don't know where to begin...i.e. I am unsure how I could improve that element of it??

"I think your rewrite should focus much more on the characters and their individual arcs."  I looked up arcs, but it's not in the dictionary, I'm hoping it means character depth, but I wanna verify?

Also re: character depth I'm going to add more elements to the characters let me know if you have a reaction to any of the following?

Murphy: badass, add elements of womanizer chauvanist
Cindy: strong, slightly feminist, intelligent
Jack:  more of a wuss at first but gets stronger through interaction with Murphy, comedic relief

Scene: Murph and Saudi soldier is getting mixed reviews, I agree it is extreme I'm wondering what about it you found cliche?  I'm thinking I missed a movie lately that did something similar or I copied something subconsciously...please do not take this as being argumentative, I truly believe if I can understand how it is cliche I can cut it or fix etc.

Lastly you said you didnt know about the tone, what's the final decision?

Also you said it's not an action comedy, and I agree, so I'm thinking it's plan old action, is that right?  

I won't respond to every suggestions, but I understood them and have implemented them.  thanks for you patience.

thanks

Jaykur


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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Martin
Posted: February 27th, 2006, 6:03pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Jaykur22

As to the the lengthy description I'm going to have to read an action script to see how it's supposed to be done I'm thinking about "The Rock" any other suggestions??


Check out 'Die Hard' or 'Lethal Weapon'. I'm no action buff, but these are both great action scripts. If you have a few dollars spare, buy W.C. Martell's 'The Secrets of Action Screenwriting' - this is a fantastic book about writing action scripts and individual action scenes. I don't write action scripts, but this book has helped me immensely.


Quoted from Jaykur22
I see what your saying about the protagonist but alas I don't know where to begin...i.e. I am unsure how I could improve that element of it??


Hmmm. It's easier to find the problems than to fix them. I think Harris turned out pretty well, Jack and Cindy, I'm not so sure. I have conflicting views about Murphy. Basically, I think you focus on too many characters. Jack and Cindy could almost be the same person given the purpose they serve. I dunno.


Quoted from Jaykur22
"I think your rewrite should focus much more on the characters and their individual arcs."  I looked up arcs, but it's not in the dictionary, I'm hoping it means character depth, but I wanna verify?


Basically, it's how your characters change during the course of the story. You already have this to an extent. Murphy is a good example. He realizes the futility of it all, his dialogue towards the end suggests his character has grown, or at least that he's accepted what he is. I think you could work on Jack. Make him weaker and more naive at the start, have him develop into a stronger character at the end. The basis of this is already there.


Quoted from Jaykur22

Murphy: badass, add elements of womanizer chauvanist
Cindy: strong, slightly feminist, intelligent
Jack:  more of a wuss at first but gets stronger through interaction with Murphy, comedic relief


Firstly, I think you could make Murphy more sympathetic. Sure, he's a badass, but maybe you could give him a softer side. Perhaps something he reveals to Cindy when Jack's not around.


Quoted from Jaykur22

Scene: Murph and Saudi soldier is getting mixed reviews, I agree it is extreme I'm wondering what about it you found cliche?  


Okay, it's not exactly cliche, but it's definitely familiar. As soon as he asked about his family, I was reminded of countless other action flicks. That said, you put a spin on it when he killed the other guy. However, this is the action of a bad guy whereas Murphy is one of your protagonists. Maybe that's where the confusion lies. He may be badass, but don't make him too bad or we won't care if he lives or dies.


Quoted from Jaykur22

Also you said it's not an action comedy, and I agree, so I'm thinking it's plan old action, is that right?  


I'd say it's an action movie with elements of a political thriller. There is a lot of political stuff in there. It's not a mindless action romp like Rambo. There is an intelligent story there.

Anyway, take what I say with a pinch of salt because I'm no expert. It's always easier to be a critic than a writer.

You respond well to the criticism and it's a good attitude to have. Take what you think is useful and discard the rest. At the end of the day, it's your story.

I think the scenes with the CSU have a great deal of potential.  You can really play on the suspense here. I'd keep rewriting these scenes until you get the most bang for your buck. Reversals and rug pulls can help you improve your action scenes. WC Martell's book explains these concepts in greater detail.

Here's a quick quote from Shane Black that illustrates the technique:

"It's like a good news, bad news joke. The bad news is, you get thrown out of an airplane. The good news is, you have a parachute. The bad news is, the ripcord breaks. The good news is, you have a backup chute. The bad news is, you can't reach the cord. And so on until your character hits the ground. He's gonna die... no, he's not... yes, he is. Reversal, reversal, reversal."

This is some of the best advice I've heard about writing action scenes. It's like one cliffhanger after another.

Good luck with the rewrite.

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Jaykur22
Posted: February 27th, 2006, 7:34pm Report to Moderator
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Thanks pal I appreciate your thoughtful responses...great idea with Murphy revealing something to Cindy...

thanks


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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Heretic
Posted: March 6th, 2006, 2:19pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Jay,

I cracked this open this morning and my first two impressions were that A) you've clearly thought alot about this story and how it's going to work and B) you need to correct all the grammar.

I'm sorry that I don't have time to read it now but I will finish it in the next couple days and let you know what I think.

By the way, The Rock is one of my favorite films of all time, but I think Martin is right...check out Lethal Weapon or Die Hard, older action scripts for learning purposes.  I recommend anything by Steven De Souza...except Street Fighter.
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Jaykur22
Posted: March 7th, 2006, 8:52pm Report to Moderator
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Heretic

thanks for the read...if I can return the favor just lemme know what you'd like me to read...If you end up waiting a few days I uploaded a new version of the script (6 days ago) ...in it I overhauled the dialogue and action scenes.  I shortened the narration...basically took people's advice as best I could. So any feedback you give will certainly be put to good use.  

Re: the grammar sadly I struggle with it, if you see something I have a tendency of doing please let me know...it'll help me know what I need to look for.  

lastly if I lose you please even if you hate it...lemme know when you lost interest it will help me improve...

A fellow the Rock Fan-Great...thanks for the heads up...I'll check out Souza...


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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Heretic
Posted: March 8th, 2006, 4:57pm Report to Moderator
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I'm resuming at the point where we've just met Cindy.  I don't have a problem with much at the beginning, but I will say that you should leave the technical stuff out.  As a spec script, this is a hard sell in the first place because of the budget, so it has to be totally tuned to a quick, easy, and undemanding read for a producer.  If that's the direction you want to go, at least.

Page 9:  I think Harris' lecture jumps around a little bit too much.  Since those are very big and fairly seperate ideas, it seems like exposition.  Also, I don't think he fully carries through the fire/lawn-mowing/factory thing.  He needs to make it clearer that there is no satisfaction without a finished product.

Page 10:  I think "Mother Nature is cruel" would suffice.  He is a teacher, after all.

Page 13:  Starting to overdo those all caps words.  Also, you may be starting to overdo the time jumps.  I'd rather see time jumps progressing consistently towards the opening scene.  This makes an easier parallel to the slow but steady downfall of an empire.  Besides, the 2020 mob scene is more of a natural climax to the time jumps.
If you're going to mention what they're wearing, do it right away, as soon as you mention their names.  Personally, I'd describe their physical attributes instead.
"This is awkward"...pet peeve for me, but this line always makes me think of some Ryan Reynolds/Seann William Scott type terrible comedy.  I'd lose it.

Page 14:  Why are we so concerned with what people are wearing?  I would mention it as little as possible unless it has specific relevance to the action.
"...helicopter can be lands..."

Page 16: Who is Jack, and why does he know that there's a subway three blocks from the White House?  Heh heh I know who Jack is...he's Nic Cage and Murphy's Sean Connery.
I think that there should be much more buildup to the first CSU sighting.  Let them run through the streets for a while with the sounds getting closer and closer.  Then give the CSU a better reveal...let it crash through a wall right on top of them and force them to scatter in two directions, or something.  More theatrical.  But definitely I think this requires more suspenseful buildup.

Page 17:  In keeping with Jack's character, I think Murphy should have to yell at Jack before Jack helps him with the newspaper dispenser.

Page 18:  You just told us in the description what the black tar does...it's paralysis serum.  Can't do that.
Oh...Cindy knows about the paralysis.  But noone told her!

Page 19:  Watch your cultural references...will MacGyver really be a household name in 2020?
Where is the CSU right now?
Just a logic note...so the paralysis serum wouldn't work at all on a rainy day?  Sorta poor design...

Page 20:  We're looking like a Monty Python sketch here.  I'd let Cindy keep her pants.

Page 21:  That's a pretty abrupt finish to the scene.  I'd give them a couple lines or something...maybe Murphy could comment on Cindy's unclad state and she could glare at him...something to bring the audience's pulse down a little before we cut to Harris.  This will make him seem a little less out of the blue by cutting down the contrast from this huge action scene to a man at his computer...unless, again, that's the effect you wanted.




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Jaykur22
Posted: March 8th, 2006, 5:49pm Report to Moderator
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I apologize ahead of time, but I like to have a dialogue with those who read my stuff and vice versa...I do the same when I review, I'm probably too thorough so pleas feel free to let me know if you'd like me to check somethng of yours out.  


Quoted Text
but I will say that you should leave the technical stuff out.  As a spec script, this is a hard sell in the first place because of the budget, so it has to be totally tuned to a quick, easy, and undemanding read for a producer.[quote]


I see where your coming from...question: are insterts and "freeze on" considered direction ?  Or were you referring more to the scene where I saw we see a lot, and the woman gets trampled etc?


Quoted Text
Page 9:  I think Harris' lecture jumps around a little bit too much.  Since those are very big and fairly seperate ideas, it seems like exposition.


I agree.  I'm considering skipping the part on human adaptation and jumping righ tinto who was Marx...

However I'm a bit stuck...let me explain...Originially I had a fairly long classroom scene where Harris talks for a good amount of time.  I had some friends/family read it and they felt it was just too long, which they had a valid point.  Maybe you can help: my goal as you probably could figure out was to explain Marxist principles in 5 minutes or less...in a way that didn't associate Marxism with the negative communist propaganda that it is so often associated with in the United States.  Basically setting up an explanation for what the audience just saw...I don't know if I accomplished that goal...any htoughts?

Also though I'm surprised you felt I didn't carry the fire/lawn mower bit through enough, upon rereading I'm considering embellishing on your line: there is no satisfaction without a finished product.  Going to have to play around wiht it.

Page 10: you're right it is entirely inappropriate...but I just love it too much...


Quoted Text
Page 13:  Starting to overdo those all caps words.
-is this in reference to the "metallic grinding" should I only do it in caps once...or am I missing caps elsewhere?


Quoted Text
so, you may be starting to overdo the time jumps.  I'd rather see time jumps progressing consistently towards the opening scene.


-Let me know what you think about this at the end...I think I take it in a different direction then you may be anticipating...


Quoted Text
Page 16: Who is Jack, and why does he know that there's a subway three blocks from the White House?  Heh heh I know who Jack is...he's Nic Cage and Murphy's Sean Connery.
  

Haha...that obvious...shoot, re: Jack that's a good catch on your part...I will have to explain how he knows...thanks  I've alway pictured him with a Palm device in his hand, guess I should've written it in.


Quoted Text
I think that there should be much more buildup to the first CSU sighting.  Let them run through the streets for a while with the sounds getting closer and closer.  Then give the CSU a better reveal...let it crash through a wall right on top of them and force them to scatter in two directions, or something.  More theatrical.  But definitely I think this requires more suspenseful buildup.


-Awesome idea...will definitely use it, I see what you mean now that you mention it...it's not so grea all we'd see is this slow tank coming at us...reminiscent of Austin Powers when the guy is about to get crush by the cement roller.  Point taken.


Quoted Text
Page 17:  In keeping with Jack's character, I think Murphy should have to yell at Jack before Jack helps him with the newspaper dispenser.


-again i like it...you really get Jack, I wish I'd thought of it originally...thanks


Quoted Text
Page 18:  You just told us in the description what the black tar does...it's paralysis serum.  Can't do that.
Oh...Cindy knows about the paralysis.  But noone told her!


-I'm unaware of the description issue...is it something related to only write what audience sees...if you don't mind could you explain for me...I'd like to fix it, I honestly am unsure what it is I did wrong.  (thanks in advance), re: Cindy=good point..


Quoted Text
Where is the CSU right now?
Just a logic note...so the paralysis serum wouldn't work at all on a rainy day?  Sorta poor design...


-CSU was behind them...but with the new idea: crashing through wall or something like that the whole scen will change, so I'll fix that issue in the rewrite...as to logic point, I'm stuck...it may just be one of htose things I hope the audience can just accept/get over...Ive struggled with the concept...ideas are more then welcome.  I also thought prob won't matter cause the actions scenes if the script ever gets picked up would get totally reworked anyways..


Quoted Text
Page 21:  That's a pretty abrupt finish to the scene.  I'd give them a couple lines or something...maybe Murphy could comment on Cindy's unclad state and she could glare at him...something to bring the audience's pulse down a little before we cut to Harris.  This will make him seem a little less out of the blue by cutting down the contrast from this huge action scene to a man at his computer...unless, again, that's the effect you wanted.


-to be honest that was kinda what I was going for...big adrenaline scene then no real relief...I sometimes find it a little cliche when every action movie always let's you down nice and easy...I wanted the audience to be like...stop...what happened...do they live?? where's Jack?  Maybe I didn't pull it off...any thoughts?

Again thanks for the feedback...I do hope you continue reading I do like your ideas, they will be used.

Jaykur


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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Heretic
Posted: March 9th, 2006, 3:28pm Report to Moderator
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Inserts and freeze on's would be fine, I imagine...you might consider asking about that in screenwriting discussion if it returns.

Re: All caps...it wasn't a reference to the metallic grinding...I don't recall what it was but it was words in the action description.  I'll look through again and get back to you.

Re: Paralysis serum...the description issue is just that you told us what it was in the description before Murphy tells Jack and Cindy through dialogue.  You're only supposed to describe things that we can see visually on screen, and the fact that this is a, specifically, paralysis serum, is something that we can't see.  Reading over it, it just looks like you forgot to have Murphy say it right out, since Cindy knows.

Re: Abrupt finsh...you know, I debated about whether to comment on the abrupt ending, because I thought that might be what you were going for.  If that's what you intended, I think it works fine.

I'm looking forward to reading more of this, but I'm really REALLY bogged down at the moment.

If you have time, my action script Marigold has just been posted in the action section.  It's an odd one, I'll warn you.
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rymatt
Posted: March 9th, 2006, 3:41pm Report to Moderator
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The description is intriguing but it isn't what the story really is about. I mean the other nation's aren't so attacking for the majority. It should more surrond Cindy, Murphy and the other leads. Also, it is more of a fight to survive story in my opinion. It is good but it isn't what the majority is about.
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Jaykur22
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thanks for the reply rymatt I'll keep it in mind...when I rewrite the logline.


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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Jaykur22
Posted: March 9th, 2006, 4:54pm Report to Moderator
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Heretic...thanks for getting back to me...I'll make those changes...I'll check out Marigold.

Jaykur


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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Heretic
Posted: March 9th, 2006, 5:39pm Report to Moderator
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And we're off!

Page 21:  You mention blueprints on his desk.  It might be nice to know what they're blueprints of, if they're at all relevant (which I suspect they may be).

Page 22:  I really don't think this is a good place for a metaphor.  The President should just give it to him straight.
Now that I see what Harris was studying, why does he have blueprints?  

Page 25:  "So basically all the really horrible parts of Marx's Manifesto?"  I don't like it.  The President is coming across as fairly dumb and this just makes him sound dumber...plus, why would he think of Marx, of all things?  It sounds like sloppy writing since you have already mentioned Marx in a different situation.  

Page 26:  Harris doesn't need to describe the laptop and where it will be kept.  He doesn't handle, or think about, security.

Page 28:  Now would be the time to describe WHY Harris wants them, specifically.
No reaction to the information that they've been watched for months?
The whole scene's too quick.  If someone pitched that job to me that way, I'd tell them to f*** off.

Page 31:  Ahh, here's the "why us".  It should be in that conversation on page 28.
"I'd love to say you're brilliant and special..."  To me, he then proclaims them to be pretty much that.  Brilliant, because they're intelligent, and special, because he can trust them.

Page 33:  The Admiral puts his hand on the President's shoulder?  No.  Don't touch the President.

Page 34:  I don't mean to nitpick, but Murphy doesn't have any pants to unzip.
This isn't the time for playful sexual banter.  We have to really get to know them, now now now.  You've gotta cram a lot of reasons for character sympathy into these pages.  Don't have Murphy be too much of a dick, unless his acting that way pulls Jack and Cindy together.  We really need to know them.
I wouldn't used the phrase "big black load".
That closet of clothes is a little too convenient.  What if they found some dead bodies?  That could make for a nice scene which would be perfect for creating character sympathy.  Jack could react negatively, Murphy could say something like, "I've seen enough of that to ignore it" and look off into the distance like Alec Guiness.

Page 35:  Is it just me or is Jack's line pretty much right out of Jurassic Park?  All we need is Cindy saying, "Machine destroys man...woman inherits the earth."

I'm noticing that one of the grammatical things that you do alot is forget to use commas.

Page 38:  There is noone in the world that would embark on a philisophical conversation at this point.

Page 39:  "No!  The CSU is programmed to react with equal violence.  Let's keep it that way."  Keep it what way?  What he means is, don't provoke it.  

Page 40:  The Jack/Murphy exchange is just too goofy here.  Now's not the time.  Murphy's "Stop being a bitch" line is not in character, by the way.

And I'm off to work!  Can't wait to read more.

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Jaykur22
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Heretic...thanks again...

"don't touch the presdient." -haha...point taken.

25: =sloppy writing...gotta work on it.  I don't have a lot of formal writing training, so this kind of comment is very helpful.  

Re: pg 34 and getting to know the characters...this has been an aspect people have recently pointed out on simply scripts here...they've said the character depth is lacking...I've tried to add it in but maybe I just did it too late/not enough.  Not sure?  I did take your idea on the bodies' clothes, I definitely was able to use Jack's weakness to create a funny moment for his character, (he wraps a plastic bag around his hands to take the corpses clothes off) ...cool idea again, wish i thought of it, in the beginning.  (i only hope my suggestions for Marigold are half as helpful as you've been)

Jurassic Park: yeah...guilty as charged..I'd just watched the movie and wanted to work Malcolm's character in somehow kinda like an homage...but it just came across as a rip off...I changed it...thanks for keeping me honest

grammar: if you see it...just one example of how I'm forgetting comas would be really helpful.  thanks

re: 40 confused on what's goofy?  Where Jack calls Murphy a meathead?

So far I find myself agreeing with a lot of your suggestions...the only one I really disagreed with so far is the slap...but that's just cause i think it be funny, sadly your probably right...I just can't get rid of it.  Oh and the part where Jack's teeth smack (though I did remove Murphy from the scene-seemed wierdly inappropriate)...again for similar reasons.  The reason I mention this is I wonder what demographic this could be for?  I'm thinking 15-25 males...would it work for a wider base, any thoughts?  

Thanks for the detailed review...I feel you've elevated my writing, truly, thank you.  

Now to start Marigold.  


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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Heretic
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Re:  Characer depth...I can't stress this enough: buy some screenwriting books.  I really suggest Lew Hunter and Syd Field.  They'll bring up things that you'll realize were always in your consciousness, just not quite there enough to think about while writing.

Re:  Jurassic Park.  No problem!  I love homages.  There are many in my writing.  I was just pointing it out.  I think it's a good choice, and I'd leave it in.

Re:  The slap.  I don't have a problem with the slap.  The slap's good.  I have a problem with Jack's line.

More!

Page 41:  Effect/s, not affect/s.

Page 42:  He throws Murphy over his shoulder?  No.  I don't think so.  He needs to carry him a different way.

Page 44:  One thing that's been bugging me but that I haven't mentioned until now is that you should describe someone every time we see them in a different time.  Say Harris looks older, or Cindy looks younger, or something about their faces now being timeworn...something to give us a change, because there sure would be on film.
So uh...Harris was just sitting around in a sub, huh?  Might want to allude to this being some sort of meeting point, rather than just leaving it assumed.

Page 45:  How is the cross feminine?
Here's the best character moment of the script so far, by the way.

Page 47:  Small thing:  "The case is now on a shelf..."  Don't let objects move without description and then mention where they are now.  Say that someone puts it on the shelf.

Page 48:  Jack calls Murphy "Murph".  Is that a typo or intentional?  I don't think they're on a nickname basis at this point.  

I'm gonna go off on a tangent here.  The main reason that your characters don't work well is that we don't know enough about them.  Every line, every little action, should be perfectly in a character, and it's not.  Once I've read this much of a script, I should know exactly how each person would react to a given situation.  I have no idea for any of them at this point.  What I would do is write up a really detailed past for each character...really get to know them like they were your best friend.  They should be almost a living entity, and when you throw a situation at them, you know them so well that it's like you're just copying down how they react, because you know there's only one way they would react.  If you can really feel your characters' fears, joys, and hopes, then the audience will too.  I wanna know them inside out.  I want to be able to make guesses about what Cindy's parents and childhood were like.

The second thing here is that you haven't really given them much reason to like each other.  Sure, they've all helped each other, but it's almost been out of necessity.  I would give them a gettin'-to-know-you early on in the script so that they really are drawn together.  You have the situations there, danger that should bring them together, but it's not quite there.  I'd up the danger stakes on them a bit so that they really have to band together, work together, and learn to trust each other.

"SUPER AWKWARD SILENCE"...don't say super.  In fact, don't write it like this.  Description would suffice..."There is an intense awkward silence."
Jack's a nice guy.  He would say "I'm sorry."  Murphy wouldn't know how to respond to this, and that's when Cindy would jump in.

Page 49:  INT. RAILBIKE ROOM would suffice, I'm sure.
Does Zedong not even question the fact that Harris is just some random teacher?  

Time for another tangent.

I don't think anyone in this script questions anything enough.  A huge crisis like this would leave 99% of the population scared and confused with no idea what to do.  Everything seems so matter of fact with Harris, Cindy, and Jack, and that just doesn't seem believeable.  I think that all you need is once scene where somebody...even two of them...just break down.  Then another tells them to pull together and remember the procedures they've planned.  I think you suffer from Sum of all Fears-itis...a nuclear bomb explodes and nobody bats an eye.  If your protagonists are more scared and less sure of themselves they will subsequently seem more human to the audience and more appealing as central characters.  Take a serious look at how much happened in the short time since they got on the sub with Harris, and then think about how you'd feel having to deal with even one of those things.

Page 53:  "They are all dirty and have hiked there."  We have no way of seeing that they have hiked there, so you can't say it.

Page 54:  Give the son and daughter names and descriptions.  You'd be amazed at how much a simple description of each person helps your script.

Page 55:  Give the man and woman names and descriptions.
Give the man a name and description.  I assume all these people will become important later in the script.

Page 58:  I'd cut Stew's quote.  Too many quotes from too many different people...and quotes are something that get old fast.  Although you know what I'd really love to see someone say?  "The treaty of liberty must be refreshed from time to time..."  Hee hee.

Page 59:  "Not to be rude..."  That's just not good diplomacy.  Harris would be the best.  Make him the best.

Page 60:  An EMP...dart?  How does that work?  Speaking of which, why doesn't it work?
"Make sure you get the bike..."  This is something I've noticed a bit.  You try to fit big chunks of dialogue into action sequences.  If a helicopter is strafing you, you don't have time to say things like that.  Besides, for this one specifically...I'm sure Jack knows.

Page 61:  Oh, I see why it doesn't work.  But that's just stupid.  Noone would engineer it that way...great writing here though, by the way.  Still...gotta change it...it's too much of a stretch.

I'm off to bed.  Might not be able to get more tomorrow but I'll get to it soon.
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Jaykur22
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Quoted Text
Re:  Characer depth...I can't stress this enough: buy some screenwriting books.  I really suggest Lew Hunter and Syd Field.-I picked up “the foundations of screenwriting.”  

Any other specific titles?  Prob order some off amazon today.


Quoted Text
Re:  Jurassic Park.  No problem!  I love homages.  There are many in my writing.  I was just pointing it out.  I think it's a good choice, and I'd leave it in.


-cool…I’m nervous about it…don’t want people to think I’m ripping it off


Quoted Text
Page 45:  How is the cross feminine?

-you know I don’t know…I think that would be the director/costume people job though?  


Quoted Text
I'm gonna go off on a tangent here.  The main reason that your characters don't work well is that we don't know enough about them.  Every line, every little action, should be perfectly in a character, and it's not.  Once I've read this much of a script, I should know exactly how each person would react to a given situation.  I have no idea for any of them at this point.  What I would do is write up a really detailed past for each character...really get to know them like they were your best friend.  They should be almost a living entity, and when you throw a situation at them, you know them so well that it's like you're just copying down how they react, because you know there's only one way they would react.  If you can really feel your characters' fears, joys, and hopes, then the audience will too.  I wanna know them inside out.  I want to be able to make guesses about what Cindy's parents and childhood were like.


-hmmm…are we talking a total overhaul of dialogue/action?  Or are certain things each character do out o fplace?


Quoted Text
The second thing here is that you haven't really given them much reason to like each other.  Sure, they've all helped each other, but it's almost been out of necessity.  I would give them a gettin'-to-know-you early on in the script so that they really are drawn together.  You have the situations there, danger that should bring them together, but it's not quite there.  I'd up the danger stakes on them a bit so that they really have to band together, work together, and learn to trust each other.


-I’ve played around with the idea of having them all sit at a table eating…asking each other who they were before the collapse…and talk about there past…but people have said that suck…maybe if I have them work together more to overcome the danger I could create that….


Quoted Text
I don't think anyone in this script questions anything enough.  A huge crisis like this would leave 99% of the population scared and confused with no idea what to do.  Everything seems so matter of fact with Harris, Cindy, and Jack, and that just doesn't seem believeable.  I think that all you need is once scene where somebody...even two of them...just break down.  Then another tells them to pull together and remember the procedures they've planned.  I think you suffer from Sum of all Fears-itis...a nuclear bomb explodes and nobody bats an eye.  If your protagonists are more scared and less sure of themselves they will subsequently seem more human to the audience and more appealing as central characters.  Take a serious look at how much happened in the short time since they got on the sub with Harris, and then think about how you'd feel having to deal with even one of those things.

-If I could get you to go just a little bit farther…we think alike re: this issue however our timing is different.  Lemme know if you think it works.


Quoted Text
Page 58:  I'd cut Stew's quote.  Too many quotes from too many different people...and quotes are something that get old fast.  Although you know what I'd really love to see someone say?  "The treaty of liberty must be refreshed from time to time..."  Hee hee.

-My buddy said the same thing about the quote…it’s the straw that breaks the camels back apparently…time to cut it.


Quoted Text
Page 60:  An EMP...dart?  How does that work?  Speaking of which, why doesn't it work?
Page 61:  Oh, I see why it doesn't work.  But that's just stupid.  Noone would engineer it that way...great writing here though, by the way.  Still...gotta change it...it's too much of a stretch.

-time for me to explain something in hopes that if I do you can tell me what the script is lacking.  EMP (electo-magnetic pulse) is the thing from 24 that permanently shuts off all electronic devices.  The only way for it to work is on a timer because it shuts off car engines that are electronic…and thus the bike engines.  So the EMP would’ve had to be on a timer to allow the bike enough time to escape…I tried to show it in Cindy’s mumbling…Originally I wrote that the helicopter explodes immediately but thought…that wouldn’t make sense…then the bikes wouldn’t turn on.

Again thanks for the input…20 more pages to rewrite with some great ideas!  Thanks

PS:  Any thoughts on the logline?


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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Heretic
Posted: March 10th, 2006, 1:20pm Report to Moderator
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I'll think about the logline and get back to you...

Re:  EMP, I do know what EMP is, but consider this:  were they developed specifically for use with the bikes?  If so, it's fair to put them on a timer.  Otherwise, for maximum efficiency in any situation, it would be best to have them on a much shorter timer.  The most extreme situation they could be used in would be, say for example, a CSU comes around a corner fifteen feet in front of you and you have nowhere to go.  You wouldn't want a twenty second timer, even if you do lose your bike.
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Jaykur22
Posted: March 10th, 2006, 1:36pm Report to Moderator
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I see where your coming from...(thinking)  Jack and Cindy don't know what these CSUs are, so the weapon wasn't specially built for the machine...I'm going to go with the EMP was designed for use with the bikes...

Working on that premise...20 seconds is a plausible amount of time to get away from a truck or helicopter if one was on a railbike...do you disagree?

Oh I put my review up on the first 20 pages of Marigold...hope it's what your looking for.  

(we must both have very boring jobs-or maybe I just do...haha)


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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Heretic
Posted: March 11th, 2006, 2:48pm Report to Moderator
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It doesn't make sense with a helicopter anyway.  There's no reason that the helicopter should be any further away from them after 20 seconds than it was at the time that the dart was fired, since both the bike and the helicopter are moving objects.  Same goes for any sort of car or other transportation device - anything that would be chasing the bike.

For screenwriting books, I really just want to recommend anything by Syd Field again.  The guy is unbelievably helpful.  One little thing I noticed in a book of his I was reading yesterday was "You should make sure that the audience learns things at the same time as your protagonist."  That's what I was trying to say about the paralysis serum.  Since your audience at this point is reading the script, you have to watch that your description doesn't reveal things that the audience doesn't know...unless it's intentional dramatic irony, of course.

Page 62:  "If those CSU's use their deadly forces on us, there'll be no surviving.  If it wants, it can be a lethal fucker."  These two sentences say pretty much the exact same thing.  I'd keep the second one.
I'm not sure exactly how EMP works...perhaps you know far better than I.  But I don't believe that the CSU would be able to detect the threat of an EMP before the device actually activated, would it?

Page 63:  "They hunt in packs.  There'll be more."  This is the wrong characteristic to give the CSUs, I think.  Besides, it's another situation where you have two sentences saying pretty much the same thing.

Page 64:  If Stew is carrying Murphy, then how does he take anything out of his pack?
Again, I don't know exactly how EMPs work, but wouldn't it be mildly unpleasant to have one go off in your hand?  Great action sequence here though.  I don't think you describe it to its full potential, actually.  Make things seem more desperate...maybe the CSU is just about to lock on to Stew when the EMP goes off?  Maybe even it's already hit Stew in the leg and he's lying helpless?  In fact, it could have hit Stew in the leg, he'd be lying helpless, he shows Murphy how to use the CSU, and the second CSU could be just rounding a corner, towering over him to finish him off, when Murphy explodes the EMP.  Sorry though, I'm just rambling.  Ramble on...!

Page 65:  Stew falls to the ground dead?  That's it?  It seems like a total non-event...keep the element of surprise, but give a bit of description of the death so that producers can really say, wow, you know, this could be a great little death scene, emotionally charged, and so on.
Murphy grabs C4 and wraps it around a grenade?  Where is he getting all this stuff?  Just seems like this b ag of stuff is a little too handy.

Page 67:  Cindy would probably just call him Doc...or Hulse.
Just a random idea...setting up the whole harness system is fairly boring screen time.  What if it was something like this:

TEAM SATUS MEMBER 3
How are twelve of us going to fit on two bikes?

Jack smiles.

EXT. RAILTRACKS FIRST CHECKPOINT - LATER

The Satus members are now strapped into (describe the harness system).  They look mildly uncomfortable.

DOC HULSE
You sure about this?

I dunno, something like that.  To get through it quicker.

Page 69:  Umm...that was easy.  Too easy.  Far too easy!

Page 70:  The train, um, crushes both helicopters?  What if the explosion sends one out of control and it crashes, and the tip of the train as it flies through the air catches the other one and pulls it down.  IT should be a little more complex...take some time describing this explosion, because it could be great.

Page 71:  "The boy (from first scene)"...why don't you just give him a name?  That'd be easier.
I guess the mother didn't have anything to say, either good or bad, when Murphy picked up her child.  There's an opportunity for a nice moment here...she could look up at him with sad eyes and thank him for what he's done.  Something like that.

Page 72:  GREAT setup for an action scene.  Can't wait to see how this plays out.
Here's a nifty little trick - for things like driving sequences, did you know you can state the location as:

I/E. TRANSPORT - DAY?

That means you don't have to constantly change from INT. to EXT. and everything reads a lot faster.

Page 73:  "The kid looks twelve".  You said he was 16.

Page 75:  Hold on.  Is this teenage girl holding the weight of herself and Murphy by her arms?
Now she's got him by the boot?  This is one strong teen girl!  For purposes of realism, I'd replace her with a young man.  That's who Murphy would look to for help anyway...he's a Marine!

Page 76:  "He limps around as if he wasn't even shot."  Huh?

Page 77:  Hold on so the helicopter's flying backwards right now at about 60 MPH?
Okay, you're gonna have to describe this transport.  I wasn't expecting it to be able to reverse over two jeeps.  I was thinking...the SWAT van from T2.  
...why would the helicopter land?  By the way, that was Murphy's chance to plow the thing and destroy it.  It shouldn't land.

Page 78:  You're stretching my believability here.  That's some darn good throwing and some darn good shooting...while moving at high speeds...while being shot at.  
Don't say "Murphy forgot to reload."  Say, "The gun clicks empty".  
If the transport is tough enough to drive over jeeps, why don't they just ram the damn copter?

Page 79:  Why is there mesh on top of the transport?

Whew!  What an action sequence!  That was some great stuff...but, honestly, the helicopter hovering doesn't work for me.

More later.
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Jaykur22
Posted: March 12th, 2006, 6:14pm Report to Moderator
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thanks for the comments...I just got back from a trip so I haven't had much time to do any more on Marigold, I hope to get to it on Tuesday...

As I read i must've said "good point out loud" 8 times...

I/E wasn't aware you do that..I will def. take advantage of it.  

I'll respond in full later


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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Heretic
Posted: March 12th, 2006, 9:40pm Report to Moderator
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Just a suggestion...

You might check out episode two of Bert's Starbuck Starr.  It has a chase scene which is put together brilliantly in terms of description and format.  
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Jaykur22
Posted: March 12th, 2006, 9:56pm Report to Moderator
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Heretic

Re: screenwriting books: thanks for the suggestion, I see what your saying...I took Field's advice and wrote up some character histories...I've gone through and asked myself, does this push the story along or show some "interior" history of the character...I've found myself making some meaningful changes.

re emp: I took artistic license...bascially I made up a fictitious weapon...

"Page 63:  "They hunt in packs.  There'll be more."  This is the wrong characteristic to give the CSUs, I think."

-Why do you think?

Page 65:  Stew falls to the ground dead?   That's it?  It seems like a total non-event

-good point

"Murphy grabs C4 and wraps it around a grenade?  Where is he getting all this stuff?  Just seems like this b ag of stuff is a little too handy."

-oh...you didn't know...it's Mary Poppin's Bag...endless...j/k I'll have to explain/working that out.

'Just a random idea...setting up the whole harness system is fairly boring screen time.  What if it was something like this:"
-didn't even think of that...I got so wrapped up trying to come up with how it work I didnt even stop to think...ummm boring!  good idea.

Page 69:  Umm...that was easy.  Too easy.  Far too easy!
-sorry, please explain?

Page 70:  The train, um, crushes both helicopters?  What if the explosion sends one out of control and it crashes, and the tip of the train as it flies through the air catches the other one and pulls it down.  IT should be a little more complex...take some time describing this explosion, because it could be great.
-thanks good idea...def needs to be expounded.

Page 71:  "The boy (from first scene)"...why don't you just give him a name?  That'd be easier.
-that would make things easier.

Page 76:  "He limps around as if he wasn't even shot."  Huh?
-yeah...ummm...I dunno either.

Page 77:  Hold on so the helicopter's flying backwards right now at about 60 MPH?
Okay, you're gonna have to describe this transport.  I wasn't expecting it to be able to reverse over two jeeps.  

-that was cop out...gotta change it.  I thought it be cool but, it won't work with how the transport interacts with helicopter and that's my favorite part.

Page 78:  You're stretching my believability here.  That's some darn good throwing and some darn good shooting...while moving at high speeds...while being shot at.  

-that was intentional...I wanted people to be like...ugh! classic action movie...then head fake NO RELOAD!  Does it work?

Jaykur


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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Heretic
Posted: March 12th, 2006, 11:28pm Report to Moderator
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I think of the CSUs as mindless drones.  They respond with equal force...they're like the Borg.

"Hunt in packs" makes me think...intelligent, plan things, work as a team...a thinking individual that realizes the benefit of a group effort.  It bestows too much consciousness on them, I think.  They're scarier (to me) if they're just sort of faceless and mindless, and would as soon kill you as help you cross the street.  
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thegardenstate89
Posted: March 13th, 2006, 5:28pm Report to Moderator
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Alright it looks like every review before nailed the problems. One thing is the CSU, you can describe what it looks like on paper, but things such as alternate fire showed be shown  to the audience. They won't know that stuff from the description you gave.

My best advice is to read a lot of scripts. The way you write makes it very confusing and vague. You'll give too many descriptions where not needed. (THE BEginning battle)

Such as the beginning fight:
I have trouble believing that a bunch of young, marines would be ready to lay down their lives slaughtering their own people. They're weren't a ton of marines from the sounds of it. Not all people in the military are brain washed, gung ho soldier boys. You also decribed them so much only to have them trampeled a line down.

In addition I don't think a commander would really give a speach to all his men letting them know that they dont have enough ammunition to silence the crowd and after it all the marines still be pumped.

A lot of your characters go off in monologues. I found it to get very tetious and at times I felt like I was getting a civics lesson.
You have the idea to present a shocking vision of the future here. You can put your polictical views in it. But many times your very abprut about. Your characters are speaking their political views. But the way you reveal things is very plain.

An example of an interesting way to show how you believe things is wrong in the our governtment is Good Night and Good Luck. Clooney took history that could easily mirror our present day situation (depending on how you look at it).
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Jaykur22
Posted: March 14th, 2006, 1:01am Report to Moderator
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thanks for the read Tony...I appreciate your feedback...just for reference did you read the most recent script or the original?

"The way I write is confusing and vague:" please explain...is it the way I describe action?  Is there a specific example  you'd like me to check out so I can emulate it.  I 've read lethal weapon, and die hard, I didn't think my descriptions were too far different from theres, I'm not saying I'm as good, but I didn't know I was being confusing or vague and would like to fix it.

As to the civcs lesson (sociology but that's doesnt matter), my goal is to give a short one during the classroom scene, just to be sure the audience understands the premise on which my screenplay is based.  

Re; political views, could you expound?  I'd really like an example of the abrupt political views I inserted because those were never my intention.   Whether or not I'm a republican/democrat, I hope is unclear from the writing.  

I'll have to see Good night and Good luck thanks for the suggestion.


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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thegardenstate89
Posted: March 19th, 2006, 5:55pm Report to Moderator
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I read the original version, I'll try and reread it but I've been so freaking busy sorry if I don't for a little while.

My wording was poor when I gave you feedback I apologize. What I meant by confusing and vague was many of the things didn't make sense in the original. I remember one line about the main characters leaving the white house and then a chinese helicopter is heard coming. This is very nitpicky of me but the audience wouldn't know what countries helicopter was it was. At the time I read it I probably could think of more examples.

Like I said I have to go back and reread it since you said you did revisions.

I actually thought it was a very intelligent idea putting a classroom scene in. And I enjoyed how you talked about marxism.

Regardless of my political views or yours claiming Michael Moore fabricates documentaries is a little blunt. I did laugh. Thinking about it again I think it's a fine comment.

I'll be sure to reread your script since it's been over a few weeks and now I cannot even support my arguements.

I'll try to send them in  sooner this time....
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Heretic
Posted: March 26th, 2006, 1:06am Report to Moderator
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Page 82:  I don't think the thing with the pilot having low gas is necessary.  I think it's cooler without that little bit, actually.

Page 83:  I think the fighting between the two pilots is a little unnecessary.  For one thing, it's best if the Chinese pilot dies when he hits the plane, because that makes the American pilot cooler.  For another, the audience has no stake in that particular fight since they don't know the characters.  I'd cut it.

Page 84:  Murphy saying simply, "He's dead" has a lot more power than "...shot by a CSU."  It's short and sweet.  

Page 85:  "Jack looks incredibly sad..."  I'd say that's kinda weak description.  What if he looked crushed or devastated.

Because we're moving into what looks like the third act, I'm going to stop here, because I won't be able to finish tonight.  I'll read the entire third act tomorrow.
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Jaykur22
Posted: March 26th, 2006, 3:55pm Report to Moderator
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thanks.


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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Jaykur22
Posted: April 1st, 2006, 1:02pm Report to Moderator
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Hello All

I've rewritten this a couple times, the newest version is posted, I've also rewritten the logline:

FOREFATHERS; an action-thriller about American economic collapse, and Lieutenant Colonel Walter Murphy’s struggle to hold together the pieces of our once great nation.

The catastrophe did not come from above or below, it came from within.  American citizens have taken to the streets in the most violent riots this country has ever experienced.  Sensing weakness, foreign militaries begin to test the dying empire’s fraying borders.  Murphy must protect two members of Team Satus, a top secret government organization charged with the task of securing and reconstructing American infrastructure, if our nation is to have any chance at survival.

If you'd like to do a script exchange, I'd gladly read your stuff in return.  Please just let me know what you'd like me to check out.


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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Heretic
Posted: April 5th, 2006, 3:59pm Report to Moderator
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Page 99:  Murphy "roles" over.  Easy mistake to make.
The Cindy/Murphy exchange is great!

Page 101:  Oh good, sarin gas!  However, as I understand it, sarin gas is a weapon that is usually used by terrorists, perhaps because it is relatively easy to make?  Either way, I don't think the US government uses it.  Would probably be...well, I'm not sure.

Page 102:  I don't get what you're going for with the phone ringing and Harris hanging it up.

Page 105:  Can you intern at a prison?

Page 107:  Hahah.  I think you can just say in the action that Cindy translates the question.  No need to have her speak gibberish.

Page 109:  This scene isn't going to work with Cindy translating the whole thing.  I think it should turn out that he can speak English, which is also good because he's already tried to deceive them once.
To me, this is too much.  I have much more sympathy for the soldier in this scene than for Murphy.  I think he should probably just point his gun at his crotch.

Page 110:  Yeah, this whole thing is far too mean-spirited.  Doesn't fit into the tone of the film, if you ask me.

Page 115:  The Saudi soldier pulls a fire alarm.  Shouldn't a missile silo like this have a better warning system?
Whoa whoa.  The description of the jets nearly shooting them is way too short.  This is a perfect place for some buildup...will they make it or won't they kind of thing.  This all just seems too abrupt...like you know exactly what you want so you're rushing through it.

Page 117:  Yeah.  You're really rushing through all this stuff.  Sometimes there are four ideas in one sentence.  Slow it down - give us a clearer picture.

Page 119:  This was all for "naught", not "not".  

Page 120:  "The classic slow clap"...I wouldn't describe it this way.  Leave out classic.  Seems...I dunno, unprofessional.

Umm...Murphy's wife?  Too much.  Way too much, in my opinion.  And unnecessary.  Murphy's character is such that he can end the same way he started.  I think so, anyway.

I think there are problems with the third act.  The stakes aren't nearly high enough.  They basically have no problem getting into the silo, and from there, it's a simple matter of browbeating two poor Saudi's (and killing one of them) before killing millions of innocent Asian civilians.  I mean, do they have to shoot missiles into the city?  That's far worse than anything that any of the bad guys have done, as far as I can tell.  I don't know.  I think character sympathy goes out the window the second that Murphy shoots the soldier in the crotch, and disappears forever.  Sure, they're happy at the end, but they did just nuke a ton of civilians.

The last ten pages were great, I thought.  The climactic speech was different from what I was expecting for this story, but it works perfectly, along with the twist.  I thought all that stuff was great (until Murphy's wife showed up).

But yeah.  Really, I just think there needs to be a ton more buildup to the launching of the missiles.  I think we should see the ships approaching American soil, and I think we should have Murphy, Jack, and Cindy get split up and be engaged in gunfights, barely making it in time to launch the missiles.  Maybe a scene where the Chinese ships destroy an American vessel on the American borders.

I'll mull it over in my mind and post again soon.  
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Jaykur22
Posted: April 5th, 2006, 6:25pm Report to Moderator
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I appreciate your suggestions....I like the idea of Cindy and Jack in a gun battle, and the built up of idea....My hang up with that is,,,i have no room, it's just way too long, I'm at a loss as to what to do?

Character sympathy: you either like that scene with Murphy or you hate it...I'm getting a lot of people who hate it.  I'm going to have to work it over...justify Murphy's killing in some way or another.  

I'm glad the last ten pages worked, I am concerned about that...I hope you found the twist, unexpected?  

thanks again, appreciate the well thought out feedback.

Jaykur


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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Heretic
Posted: April 5th, 2006, 8:05pm Report to Moderator
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I agree that you don't have much room to work with here.

I'll glance over the script again and see where I think it could be shortened.
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The boy who could fly
Posted: May 25th, 2006, 4:27pm Report to Moderator
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hey jaykur22,

just finished this.  over all this was a pretty decent script.  It was actually kinda scary because something like this could happen, and how people would react could be something like how people act in this.  I'm glad I live in Canada

there were a few mistakes here and there.

on page 2 Michelle's intoduction should be capitalized.

there were a few times when the dialog was to the left, not centered.

on page 14 with the president, on page 31 with Woman computerized voice,  and on page 72 with status 3, and also on page 73.

other than that your format was great.


SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Now onto the story.

I liked the opening with chaos all over the streets, it felt very end of the worldish, it made me wanna know what happened and what was going to happen next.

I got a little confused in the first act with all the cutting back and forth in time, but it cleared it self up later on so that was good.

I like the line on page 33 when Murphy says "if I want you lip I would unzip my pants"  HA--funny

also on page 33 when Jack says "thanks from keeping you robot friend from blowing his huge black load on me"  HA--good line

I thought the scene at the top of page 35 felt kind of odd whith Murph smacking around Jack.

jack also seemed to get the worst out of everybody here, he gets the shit kicked out of him the most, almost every scene he's in   poor guy.

I think it slows down to much in the second act thoough and gets quite talky, I think this needs to be tightend up a bit to get it flowing a little more.

things started to pick up on page 64, some good action here.

there is a lot of action in the climax in this script and I liked that, it goes from one problem to another which keeps people in suspense.

On the ending, I liked it, but I think I would have liked it more if Murph really did kill Hariis, it could have had the same outcome, just with more of an emotional impact.  what you have is satisying, but I felt it could have been more, like at first when I read that it was Murph who shot him I was like "holy fuck!", then I see that it was an act and I felt a little cheated.

all in all it was a good action packed script, I think the middle just needs to be a little more tight and less talky, other than that you have a good story with some good action through out.  good job.


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Jaykur22
Posted: May 25th, 2006, 10:49pm Report to Moderator
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thanks for your thoughts.  Ill be sure to fix those random errors.  

As for the time cuts, did in come together in the end..or were you still confused?  You think it be better off linear?

Appreciate what you thought was good, and what didn't work.  That's the hardest part.  I'll be sure to pull that slapping scene, your not the first person to say it doesn't work.   If you have more ideas on jokes that fall flat I'm all ears.

I'm wondering about when you thought it got slow.  Any suggestions on scenes that you thought dragged?  Or was it from page 33-64?  longer?  

thanks

Jaykur


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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The boy who could fly
Posted: May 27th, 2006, 11:01am Report to Moderator
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I think  the time cuts were fine, at first it was confusing, but then after a while it makes more sense.

and for the lull in the middle, it's just that it was too talky, a lot of explaining, I know that you need to do some of this so the audience gets the information, but I think to show it would be better, I also did this in my script and I am about to change that.  The only place it dragged for me was in the middle there, other than that it was fast paced.  Hope that hepled.    Thanks again for the exchange.


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James Fields
Posted: May 27th, 2006, 3:00pm Report to Moderator
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Why'd you remove the script Jaykur? I was getting ready to read it, because it was on the top of my to-do list.

I'm sure you had a good reason for taking it off, but I'm hoping that it will show up soon again.


Coming Soon:

I finally found the title for my short.

Acronym- You've been warned...

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FilmMaker06
Posted: May 27th, 2006, 3:02pm Report to Moderator
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Yeah, I've been thinking about reading this for a little while an just came in here to pull it up and BAM! It was gone...


My life will never be the same with the the forfathers...


-Chris

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Jaykur22
Posted: May 27th, 2006, 9:08pm Report to Moderator
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Shoot...!

I actually had a job interview, and I didnt want the content of the screenplay to affect my opportunity.  It also made me nervous when some people from SS found their scripts on other people's websites without their permission.  If I remember correctly, he was selling CDs full of screenplays.

Recently I've gotten a couple reviews via e-mails and have made such drastic changes that I just haven't had a draft that I wasn't working on.    

If either of you are still in the mood, I'd love to send it to your e-mail and get your opinion.  Just let me know what you'd like me to read in exchange.  If not that's cool, e-mail wierds some people out, I understand.  

Thanks

Jaykur

PS:  If you'd like to check out the newest title, and summary you can find it here:

http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-goose/m-1143837907/


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"

Revision History (1 edits)
Jaykur22  -  June 4th, 2006, 7:49pm
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George Willson
Posted: June 4th, 2006, 9:21pm Report to Moderator
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He sent me this in an email, so I'll leave my comments.

SPOILERS

Overall, it is an entertaining story, though it has some weak points. My most prominent observation is that the first half seems to be tighter than the second. I was just reading the story for the first 60 pages, and figured I would just comment when I was done, but once I hit page 60, it's like the whole thing unraveled. Points got confusing. The descriptions were not as good as in the first half, and I got downright lost in some of them.

Your characters require a little development still since everything about them in ensconsed in the plot. They have no life outside of this story, and that is the real division between good and great characters. They need something beyond the plot you've created to give them a life and something for the audience to wonder about once the film is over. Their status after the script is unknown. We know they exist, but what are they doing? Most of your characters are decent in the central plot development, but when you back up and see if they existed before the story and will exist after the story, they just don't. Something to think about.

Here's my comments on your second half.

60: My first question mark. First, what are rail-bikes? Okay, you describe them later, but you should give them a description when they first come up. Second, how did Jack lie to Murphy about his wife? I don't get it.

62: Who the hell are these people?

66: The EMP dart bit was confusing. I flipped back and forth and figured it out, I think, but it was confusing.

66-68: Whoa, that was confusing. I understood that Murphy went another direction, and now he was able to get back almost instantly. I have no idea what happened to Jack and why he couldn't push the button. It needs to be clearer.

69: How did Jack get there? If Jo was riding with Murphy, then what was Jack riding? Jo's still worked? Then why wasn't Jo riding hers or Jack and Jo riding together? The logistics of this section are unraveling. I don't even know what they're doing.

71: You talk about "the train" yet this train and its orientation to the rail bikes has not been set up for this big escape scene. It's one of those things that I figure out if I flip back and forth, but I shouldn't have to do that. It needs to make sense the first time through. It may seem redundant, but you should name the people in the harness. At first glance it looked like Murphy was going to wait for someone to come back with another railbike and he wasn't going to ride in the harness. Also, need a setup for this explosion. Why did Jack's magic button blow up this train?

73: Murphy's wife is what? This does not gibe with what happened earlier...if I may dictate:
pg 3: [Murphy] is with his wife Michelle...
pg 9: [Michelle] screams. Crack! The scream abruptly stops.
Pg 24: A woman's mangled and trampled body lies in the street. A bible falls limply from the woman's hand. Arm-band badge name reads: "Michelle Murphy"

If his wife is the vice-president and she is alive, you have some explaining to do.

After completing the story, I am completely lost in this bit of story. My former paragraph is what that section implies, and yet it can't imply that. I'm afraid whatever lie Jack told was lost on me, since that was never clarified.

76: Why are we only just bringing up the trust of Murphy? Seems an odd issue to tackle now.

77: This may be cool to watch, but why are they doing it? What's going on? Also, what's with the conversation inside the airplane, but Jack and Jo jumped out already? Is this supposed to be V.O.? Needs a lot of clarified detail.

78: End Montage? Where did it begin?

86: What Murphy asked for...huh?

89: Access card in a layer of dust sounds clever, but need more detail on how this works.

98: Murphy says "I'm just going for the Doc's wife. You're free to do as you please, but I don't care bout 'em." Initially this line came off as he's going to resuce the wife and child, but he doesn't care what happens to them. As I sat back and considered this, I figure it has to do with his former relation to the unit that picked the pair up and that he doesn't care about that part of the operation any more. If this is correct, the line needs to be rewritten.

113: Murphy going on about starting a war in relation to his wife...when the hell did this happen? How did Jack lie? I seriously don't understand.

120: The Untied States huh? I find some of your typos very amusing.

I feel like your main character is supposed to be Murphy, and yet he is all but dragged through the central portion of your script. He is a lead for the first part, though, and does a lot of good and it feels right for him to be the one leading, but when he takes a back seat for awhile, it's like he loses a lot of steam. Then again, this could be related to the confusion the second half of the script entails. The first half is a cohesive story, but the second half is a series of mini-missions that are never introduced, but just started. As they unfold, it becomes mostly clear as to what is going on, but when they start, I'm wondering why this is going on. You need to set those up better. You need Murphy to do more. This whole lie thing needs to be explained. There is apparently animosity between he and Jack over it, yet I don't know what it is.

So, as a whole, the story is good, but that second half needs a lot of work.


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FilmMaker06
Posted: June 4th, 2006, 9:23pm Report to Moderator
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I think, when he said your scripts were being stolen, he was talking about that guy who was charging however much for people to be able to read a bunch of scripts. Your screenplays were in there. At least, that's what you said.

-Chris
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Jaykur22
Posted: June 4th, 2006, 10:22pm Report to Moderator
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George thanks for your comments.  If I may some things to run by you.  

60: how did Jack lie to Murphy about his wife? I don't get it.

-Looks like I have a case of knowing the story in my head and not writing it.  Let me try and get to the root of my problem.  

Stop me when things stop being clear.

Murphy’s wife is trampled to death:

(here’s the scene)
“With a Bible in hand, Michelle runs down an abandoned street.  The sounds of the Mob in the distance. People in the mob slams and jostles for position, unorganized chaos like a herd of animals on a stampede. The mob catches up to Michelle.  She is swallowed up, desperately she tries to stay on her feet, she is pushed back and forth inside the scrum. She loses her balance and tumbles head over heals to the ground.  She screams. Tangle of bodies and legs, her hands go up to protect herself. Crack! The scream abruptly stops.”

Maybe it’s not clear she’s dead?

Jack’s lie = Jack: “She'd been shot, her name tag was the same, last name as yours.”

*Now, this is what I’m thinking:
Murphy’s wife is trampled to death by the mob.  
Jack not able to tell Murphy that Michelle was stomped to death lies, telling Murphy that Michelle had been shot.  

Please lemme know where I’m losing you so I can clear it up in the script.  

62: Who the hell are these people?

-new characters, this a bad thing?  They tie the early victims of the story to the ending.  Sounds like it doesn’t work though.  ??

66: The EMP dart bit was confusing. I flipped back and forth and figured it out, I think, but it was confusing.

66-68: Whoa, that was confusing. I understood that Murphy went another direction, and now he was able to get back almost instantly. I have no idea what happened to Jack and why he couldn't push the button. It needs to be clearer.

-ill work out the timing on Murphy making it back so fast good point.  
-ill fix the bit about the trigger button.  

69: How did Jack get there? If Jo was riding with Murphy, then what was Jack riding? Jo's still worked? Then why wasn't Jo riding hers or Jack and Jo riding together? The logistics of this section are unraveling. I don't even know what they're doing.
-hmmm?  
-let me know at what point I lost you so I can fix it in the script.
-There are 3 bikes total.  At some point Murphy breaks off.
-Jo’s bike is destroyed.
-Murphy leaves his bike for Jack.  
-Cindy and Murphy take the bike Jack set up.  
-Though I see what your saying, some of these details are unimportant.  But, you telling me where I lost you, will tell me where to start rewriting I guess.

71: You talk about "the train" yet this train and its orientation to the rail bikes has not been set up for this big escape scene. It's one of those things that I figure out if I flip back and forth, but I shouldn't have to do that. It needs to make sense the first time through. It may seem redundant, but you should name the people in the harness. At first glance it looked like Murphy was going to wait for someone to come back with another railbike and he wasn't going to ride in the harness. Also, need a setup for this explosion. Why did Jack's magic button blow up this train?

-okay.  I may have been too subtle.  
- Here’s what I have to set it up: Jack slowly gets up, grabs his back pack, and runs up the hill towards the train.
-too subtle?

73: Murphy's wife is what? This does not gibe with what happened earlier...if I may dictate:
pg 3: [Murphy] is with his wife Michelle...
pg 9: [Michelle] screams. Crack! The scream abruptly stops.
Pg 24: A woman's mangled and trampled body lies in the street. A bible falls limply from the woman's hand. Arm-band badge name reads: "Michelle Murphy"

If his wife is the vice-president and she is alive, you have some explaining to do.

-this is the line that’s confusing I think:
Harris: I'll cut to the chase, The Vice President’s location was revealed.  Satellite scans show…
Murphy: My wife, and now the commander in chief, why am I still…

-now I combine the ideas of vp’s location being revealed by jimmy, and the separate idea of Murphy’s wife passing.  
-so what I was aiming for: murphy’s wife is dead, murphy’s boss: vp is dead.  
-I’m going to rework the line to clarify, will that suffice, or is there more leading to this confusion.  

76: Why are we only just bringing up the trust of Murphy? Seems an odd issue to tackle now.

-I felt it was the first time that Jo really had a choice.  Sounds like it doesn’t fit, any suggestions on how to better deal with this if I should deal with it all.  

77: This may be cool to watch, but why are they doing it? What's going on? Also, what's with the conversation inside the airplane, but Jack and Jo jumped out already? Is this supposed to be V.O.? Needs a lot of clarified detail.

-I think this is a formatting problem.  What I was trying to do was have the very beginning of a conversation with Murphy and them in the helicopter.  Then I wanted it be voice over as they did the actions in the plan that Jack was talking about.  Should I have VO’d?

86: What Murphy asked for...huh?

-im looking through 85-86 is this the line: We need the launch protocol for sarin gas,and the intercontinental ballistic missile system.
-too specific?


98: Murphy says "I'm just going for the Doc's wife. You're free to do as you please, but I don't care bout 'em." Initially this line came off as he's going to resuce the wife and child, but he doesn't care what happens to them. As I sat back and considered this, I figure it has to do with his former relation to the unit that picked the pair up and that he doesn't care about that part of the operation any more. If this is correct, the line needs to be rewritten.

-how’s this: I'm just going for the Doc's wife.  You're free to do as you please, but I don't care bout the rest of 'em.

113: Murphy going on about starting a war in relation to his wife...when the hell did this happen? How did Jack lie? I seriously don't understand.

-this seems to be the monster issue.  
-the reason: they went to MEA base was to start the war.  
-I wanted people to wonder what was going on, but I wanted it to all come clear at this moment (cemetery moment).  
-Here’s my thinking please tell me where I go wrong for you
-Harris finds out that MEA is traitors sneaking soldiers to the US.
-Harris puts some plan into effect.  Murphy Jack stew and Jo all go to take care of it.
-they launch missiles.
-chinese pm is victim of explosion.
-battle result, Chinese planes blowing up MEA military targets.
-@the cemetery: revealed the purpose of Murphy, Jack, Jo, Stew at MeA base.  i.e. they were starting a war.  

120: The Untied States huh? I find some of your typos very amusing.

-HAHA, what a way to end it!

As to your general comment: He is a lead for the first part, though, and does a lot of good and it feels right for him to be the one leading, but when he takes a back seat for awhile, it's like he loses a lot of steam.  I was trying to follow the hero's journey, specifically refusal to the call.  The real turn over moment was supposed to be the train tracks, when he turns around.  Is he losing steam because I was keeping him from joining the mission, or is it later in the story.  Specifically the MEA base where he doesnt play a crucial role.  Basically im trying to pin down where he loses steam, so I cam pump it up a bit.  

Thanks for you time.  Appreciate your feedback.    


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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George Willson
Posted: June 4th, 2006, 11:09pm Report to Moderator
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Okay, I now understand the lie Jack told. However, the next issue come into why he would lie about it. Whether she was shot or trampled, how would that make a difference? Why lie about the way she died? It deceives the reader more than it does Murphy since the lie doesn't make sense. People lie for a reason, and for this lie to play off just right, he's gotta have a reason to do it.

86: The bit about the sarin gas and missiles. It is one of those requests that comes out of nowhere. I think this and some of the other scenes just need some setup. We need a big mission briefing where everything gets laid out for us so we know what is going on. There are clearly several mini-missions they require to accomplish their big goal, and I think giving us a run-down of the full scope of those missions would be helpful to clear up a lot of my confusion.

62: The victim tie-in. I caught this, and the characters are necessary in regards to the ending, but what is needed is a reason for these people to be rescued. I go back to the mission briefing I mentioned a moment ago. As the audience, we need to know why this stuff is going on. We need to know the importance of these people you've deemed worthy of taking up space in the script. They play into the script later, but why are they where they are instead of with Harris already. Give them a reason to be where they are, and a compelling need to send people out after them. Remember, your characters need to have existed before they show up the first time, and they need to exist after we no longer see them.

66-68: Just a cut back and forth between Murphy approahing and the other action should do this to show he didn't just appear.

69: The bikes. When I was reading it, I saw this happening. Jo's bike was stuck on the tracks. Jack had his bike and was running off when Jo was left. He comes back still toting his bike and they do the EMP thing. He runs off still carrying his bike. Jo's bike gets shot up. Jack's bike is also described as being beat up, leaving only Murphy's bike. That's how it read to me.

71: I reread this section with the train and specifically looked at the bit you pointed out. I can see that as a setup, but yeah, it's way too subtle. You shoudl describe this train that is sitting there and give it a specific characteristic we can identify later as "oh, that's the train Jack had to do something to earlier." There's a lot of space between now and seeing this train again.

73: Yes, we need that clarification. The way the line came off was that Murphy's wife is the vice-president and scans located where she currently is with the implication she is alive and not dead. I said what?

76: Murphy being trustworthy or not doesn't come up until the end as a tease, so either leave it out or play it up. Make us believe he is ticked to the point he might actually do the trick at the end.

77: I gathered that perhaps the plan was being dictated as we watch it carried out. It is a formatting issue more than anything. Basically, you start the chat in a briefing room or something and then continue it as V.O. as the action plays out. The way it is currently written it sounds like they are discussing this in the plane and then jump out to continue discussing it over their headsets, which did not work for the conversation that was going on.

98: I'm going into the prison block for the Doc's wife. I don't care about the rest of 'em. -- just anything to clarify that the "them" refers to the prisoners.

113: Murphy seems upset about having started a war. If he knew what he was doing, why is he upset about it? I can understand his being upset over unwillingly participating with the enemy, but with the explanation you gave, why would he be angry over doing what he felt was right?

For the hero's journey to work, he needs to be continuously called, but continually refuse for his own reasons. This refusal and his reasoning should be crystal clear to the audience, and they should even relate to his refusal. I recall Murphy refusing to do the HALO jump, but that seemed more of being afraid of it than relating to his real issue: maybe coping with the loss of his wife? He needs some internal reason to back out of the limelight, but something clear.

It seems the real keyword here is clarity. Everything needs to be very, very clear. Overwrite it to begin with to make sure everything is there and then cut it back. But you need to ensure every point can be understood, and that's the main weakness you have right now.


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Jaykur22
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*Oh by the way i edited my post re: the stealing of scripts, and Rapture's right that was what I was talking about.  I'll eventually get this back up on SS, I've had so many great review/critiques that's it constantly changing drafts, and it hasn't been "done" yet.

Back to my story here:

Thanks for you quick I reply.  I didn't even see this problem re: lie, and your confusion wth his wife.  Glad it happened now, while I can fix it.

I know I'm a chattie cathy, but whenever someone reads my stuff, I squeeze 'em for information.  I work best after I bounce ideas off of people, especially when they are the ones who brought issues to my attention.  So, if you find it annoying, don't feel obligated to answer right away, or at all, whenever you get around to it, would be greatly appreciated.  

Obviously you've given me a lot to work with...

You wote: Okay, I now understand the lie Jack told. However, the next issue come into why he would lie about it. Whether she was shot or trampled, how would that make a difference? Why lie about the way she died? It deceives the reader more than it does Murphy since the lie doesn't make sense. People lie for a reason, and for this lie to play off just right, he's gotta have a reason to do it.

-first off, do i need to add anything to carify the lie being told, and how that fit together?
-re: justifying the lie: I see what your saying.  Gonna have to brainstorm this one a bit.  My initial thinking was just that gun shot would seem less painless and therefore more acceptable then being stomped to death.  But I could make it a better/stronger reason.
-Ive been toying with the idea that maybe Jack says he lied because he thought they could use his help and jack knew Murphy would never help them with their mission if Murphy knew the mob killed his wife.  
-if you think of something better fire it over cause im struggling.  I'll have to sleep on it.  

you wrote: "Your characters require a little development still since everything about them in ensconsed in the plot. They have no life outside of this story, and that is the real division between good and great characters. They need something beyond the plot you've created to give them a life and something for the audience to wonder about once the film is over. Their status after the script is unknown. We know they exist, but what are they doing? Most of your characters are decent in the central plot development, but when you back up and see if they existed before the story and will exist after the story, they just don't. Something to think about."

-I'm wondering how to fix this.  I see how this comment relates to the Satus Agents (the people they pick up on the train tracks)-and you've given me a great solution on how to solve it/ but does it relate to the main characters as well?  I thought I dealt with this by showing Murphy's ordinary world in the beginning, and shwing jack and jo as students, harris as a teachers.  Was this not enough, or do you have a suggestion for improving them.  Think I went about it the wrong way?

I like the idea of a mission briefing to explain the railbike pick up mission.  Good point, I can see how you'd be confused.  

I'm hesitant to explain with a mission briefing why the group goes to the MEA base.  Primarily because I couldnt explain the MEA scene in the first mission breifing, because it's not yet revealed that they have to go to the MEA base, which means I'd have to do it twice.  I see why it be good idea, but first I'd be afraid it get repetitive, and 2nd it may interrupt the faster pace.  I'm thinking I keep the audience wondering what's going on, and then at the cemetary have it all come clear.  

For example it go something liek this:
Mission briefing
they go get the satus agents
train explodes
etc

then
Harris gets intel on the tankers
he sends the group into the MEA base (audience doesnt know why)
the group blows up the chinese pm's residence/kills the invading army
...
eventually we get to the cemetary
Murphy is pissed.  He says he never would've started that war, if he'd known his wife had been crushed by the people Satus was trying to protect.  He says the only reason he went along was for revenge, he didn't care about their stupid cause.  (audience clued in on why the group was there)

Basically I just wanted to bounce the idea off you and see what you thought.  Maybe it sucks?

Last one:

You wrote:For the hero's journey to work, he needs to be continuously called, but continually refuse for his own reasons. This refusal and his reasoning should be crystal clear to the audience, and they should even relate to his refusal. I recall Murphy refusing to do the HALO jump, but that seemed more of being afraid of it than relating to his real issue: maybe coping with the loss of his wife? He needs some internal reason to back out of the limelight, but something clear.

-I'm thinking I need to beef up Murphy's role in this set of scenes.  By now he should have completed his hero transition, so he shouldn't be refusing anymore.  He should be making things happen.  Agree?  Am i way off?

PS: i've had some people mention they didn't feel the antagonist worked so well.  What are you thoughts if any re: that aspect of the story.  Is it too weak, does it work, etc.


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"
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George Willson
Posted: June 5th, 2006, 1:10am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Jaykur22
*Oh by the way i edited my post re: the stealing of scripts, and Rapture's right that was what I was talking about.  I'll eventually get this back up on SS, I've had so many great review/critiques that's it constantly changing drafts, and it hasn't been "done" yet.


Yeah, understood that which is why I deleted my subsequent post. I was actually the one who found that disc online.


Quoted from Jaykur22
-first off, do i need to add anything to carify the lie being told, and how that fit together?
-re: justifying the lie: I see what your saying.  Gonna have to brainstorm this one a bit.  My initial thinking was just that gun shot would seem less painless and therefore more acceptable then being stomped to death.  But I could make it a better/stronger reason.
-Ive been toying with the idea that maybe Jack says he lied because he thought they could use his help and jack knew Murphy would never help them with their mission if Murphy knew the mob killed his wife.  
-if you think of something better fire it over cause im struggling.  I'll have to sleep on it.  


You definitely need to have Jo point out that she was trampled by the mob so that we know right from the beginning what the lie is. For him to want to lie, he needs to make it crystal clear that he believes the mob is the enemy and they are who he is fighting against. He needs to hold this belief throughout the story and never falter from it. If he clings to this belief, then it will make that third act to rescue the mob that much more powerful. But anytime this lie emerges, it needs to relate directly to the mob verus whoever they need Murphy to think killed his wife, and he needs to identify this mystery shooter and always go after them...maybe Jack could give him an ID. If he clings to the memory of his wife and the method of her death, this will work.


Quoted from Jaykur22
you wrote: "Your characters require a little development still since everything about them in ensconsed in the plot.

-I'm wondering how to fix this.  I see how this comment relates to the Satus Agents (the people they pick up on the train tracks)-and you've given me a great solution on how to solve it/ but does it relate to the main characters as well?  I thought I dealt with this by showing Murphy's ordinary world in the beginning, and shwing jack and jo as students, harris as a teachers.  Was this not enough, or do you have a suggestion for improving them.  Think I went about it the wrong way?


No, that was good for a little backstory. You might also tell how they relate to each other. Are they in a relationship? They never act like it. What are they doing when the story ends? Do they have a future together? For Harris, this will probably be fine, although might be nice to know if he had a relationship and where he plans to disappear to...I'd like to know where he would disappear to before the final scene. Make it hypothetical, so it is clear when it happens. Just think about these people as real people and what decisions they must have made in their lives to end up where they are.


Quoted from Jaykur22
I like the idea of a mission briefing to explain the railbike pick up mission.  Good point, I can see how you'd be confused.  

I'm hesitant to explain with a mission briefing why the group goes to the MEA base.  Primarily because I couldnt explain the MEA scene in the first mission breifing, because it's not yet revealed that they have to go to the MEA base, which means I'd have to do it twice.  I see why it be good idea, but first I'd be afraid it get repetitive, and 2nd it may interrupt the faster pace.  I'm thinking I keep the audience wondering what's going on, and then at the cemetary have it all come clear.  


It's okay to keep the details vague. We just need something to go on. We need a goal of some kind. Why are we here? To do this. Obviously there is a bigger picture, but we don't see it yet.

For example: Attack of the Clones: Obi-Wan Kenobi goes from planet to planet searching for a bounty hunter. When he is captured, he is rescued by a large number of clones. This attack begins a war between the Republic and Dooku's resistance. What is really going on? The whole thing was orchestrated to take over the galaxy.

You can keep the audience guessing and put it all together at the end with a true reason it all happened. All the players need to know is why they are there at that moment. Let the big picture come out later.


Quoted from Jaykur22
For example it go something liek this:
Mission briefing
they go get the satus agents
train explodes
etc

then
Harris gets intel on the tankers
he sends the group into the MEA base (audience doesnt know why)
the group blows up the chinese pm's residence/kills the invading army
...
eventually we get to the cemetary
Murphy is pissed.  He says he never would've started that war, if he'd known his wife had been crushed by the people Satus was trying to protect.  He says the only reason he went along was for revenge, he didn't care about their stupid cause.  (audience clued in on why the group was there)

Basically I just wanted to bounce the idea off you and see what you thought.  Maybe it sucks?


The audience should know what the mission is there, but not clued in on the big picture. Just tell them what Murphy knows: they are there for revenge on the Chinese for attacking America. They are supposed to launch some missiles at China. Murphy is on board with that and loving it, so he's in. Jack and Jo might know the big picture reason, but we only get Murphy's info. He have to have a stake in what's going on and unless we know what's going on, we feel like we were left out of the loop, and no one likes that.


Quoted from Jaykur22
-I'm thinking I need to beef up Murphy's role in this set of scenes.  By now he should have completed his hero transition, so he shouldn't be refusing anymore.  He should be making things happen.  Agree?  Am i way off?

PS: i've had some people mention they didn't feel the antagonist worked so well.  What are you thoughts if any re: that aspect of the story.  Is it too weak, does it work, etc.


Well, you've got something good in all of this that I've noticed. It actually gives a firm division to the acts, defines Murphy's characters and gives him direction. Your first act break is the discovery his wife is dead. He is told a story by Jack to get him on their side as opposed to the side he professes to be on. He hates the mobs, but learning his wife wasn't killed by the mobs, he is ok with helping them.

I think he should learn that Jack lied before he goes to rescue the people. He should learn his wife was killed by the mob, and then be sent to rescue those same people he wanted picked up. He is forced to accept that the ones in captivity are not the ones that killed his wife. She was killed in the pandemonium of what was going on. His acceptance of the mob as people will be a struggle for him to overcome, and overcoming it will make his mission that much stronger. The Doc's wife will force him to view the mob as just people instead of an enemy.

Sure, he can bitch out Jack later at the cemetary when he learns the full plan, but this tidbit will get him going and give us something to think about.


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George Willson
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Quoted from Jaykur22
PS: i've had some people mention they didn't feel the antagonist worked so well.  What are you thoughts if any re: that aspect of the story.  Is it too weak, does it work, etc.


I realised as I was driving home last night that I failed to answer this one, which is just as well because it gave me some time to think about it. While you have the Chinese minister that Harris yells at and even launches a weapon at bad news: he can't be the antagonist. He's Harris's antag, but not the main one because Murphy is the main character. The closest antag I found is the Jimmy character who was killed during the bike-EMP-train battle.

An antagonist needs to be someone who represents the opposite of your protagonist, or Murphy. Jimmy is a perfect candidate for this since he turned early on, and is easily "the enemy" after that in Murphy's eyes. What does this mean? This means Jimmy cannot die in the helicopter crash. He must be defeated by Murphy specifically. He must be the final obstacle in Murphy overcoming whatever you've set him up to overcome in the story. Once Jimmy is defeated, then Murphy's journey is over.

There is no other person, really, who comes close to being an antagonist. An organization cannot be an antag; they must be represented by a single person. I thought about your Chinese minister, but a) he plays a minor role and b) he doesn't even interact with Murphy. I considered everyone else I could think of, and no one filled that role completely. Faceless soldiers don't count (Ok, Aliens can be said to be an exception, but oh wait! The army of Aliens did get a single representative that Ripley had to defeat: the Queen).

My recommendation her is to expand jimmy's role into being the American representative of the Chinese incursion. To be real, he already is to an extent, but with a little tweaking, he can be your antagonist. Murphy already has a score to settle with him...


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Jaykur22
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George you work nights!  A fellow 3rd shift guy, excellent.  I quit a year ago (so i guess I should stop counting myself), but I still remember how confused my body got.  I hated it.  Hopefully Fempiror kicks right off so that's not necessary any more!

Some quick questions:

You wrote: "For him to want to lie, he needs to make it crystal clear that he believes the mob is the enemy and they are who he is fighting against. He needs to hold this belief throughout the story and never falter from it. If he clings to this belief, then it will make that third act to rescue the mob that much more powerful. But anytime this lie emerges, it needs to relate directly to the mob verus whoever they need Murphy to think killed his wife, and he needs to identify this mystery shooter and always go after them...maybe Jack could give him an ID. If he clings to the memory of his wife and the method of her death, this will work.

-I'm struggling to understand what your trying to communicate, this is what I think your saying, please correct me if I'm wrong.
-For Jack to want to lie, Jack needs to make it obvious to the audience why he lies. Murphy needs to hold this belief (the lie) throughout th story.  Anytime the lie emerges, it needs to relate directly to the mob versus the lie (i.e. Chinese soldiers who Murphy thinks killed his wife)
-Basically what we're saying is, and you were exaclty right.  Murphy joins Jack and Jo, because of the lie that Jack told.  Jack tells it for two reasons, the first that they may need Murphy's help, the second Jack doesnt want to be the guy to tell the spouse was crushed to death.  /
* seems like the problem is I need to justify this lie.

I've tried the following, let me know what you think.  I've bounced hte idea off a couple friends with mixed reviews.  

First Scene (it occurs right after the trio escapes the CSU in the store):
Murphy head down, his mind in a different place.
Jack clears his throat.
Murphy looks up.
Jack and Sam, each look at him concern in their eyes.
MURPHY
My wife, she was...  I don’t know where she could be.
Jack’s eyes.
Sam’s eyes.
FLASBACK-grainy, rough
Michelle Murphy running.
The mob running her down.
Her body in the street, mangled.
Name tag: Hank Murphy
Sam rolls her over, name tag: Michelle Murphy...
END FLASHBACK
SAM
Lieutenant Colonel, we found your wife she’d been tr...
JACK
Shot, execution style.  Painless sir.
Murphy bewildered, sorrow in his eyes.
MURPHY
My men weren’t over there, who...
JACK
We saw some Chinese soldiers.
Murphy watches as the Chinese helicopter, chops through the air overhead.
MURPHY
Why would he give an order to kill a civilian...

The second scene (Cindy confronts Jack about the lie)
SAM
Why’d you lie to him?
JACK
I thought it be easier to hear that, then she’d been crushed to death.
SAM
That’s his wife.  She’s dead, what’s the difference.
JACK
If she was shot, it be quick painless.  Crushed...be long, painful.
Sam shakes her head in disgust.
JACK (CONT'D)
Besides, he wouldn’t be helping us, if he knew.
SAM
I know that’s...

*I've spent all day trying to come up with a solution to justifying this lie, and I just got nothing.  It's  difficult problem, maybe my approach is all wrong.  

I figured as much re: antagonist.  My first thought was to have Jimmy be in the helicopter, when Murphy saves the refugees. Kinda like a last stand between the two, I may go back to that idea.  Seems like it fits better.  

RE: when to reveal the lie.  I've been playing around with this.  Your right it would make the rescue that much more meaningful, but it takes away from the shock of Murphy "shooting" Harris.  It's a line, I have to walk I guess.   Do I give the information away before and make the mission meaningful, or do I give it after and make it seem like Murphy is so pissed he might actually try to kill Harris.  
-the only other option i really have is have something like: Jo runs up and tell Murphy she has to tel him something... it's a lie.  But Murphy says later, I have to handle this.  A hint/compromise?  

thanks for your input


Jake


Mason: "Are you sure you're ready for this?"
Stan Goodspeed: "I'll do my best."
Mason: "You're best. Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"
Stan Goodspeed: "Carla was the prom queen."
Mason: "Really?"
Stan Goodspeed: "Yeah!"

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