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You're missing my point. It's not about 16 Blocks being good or not. It's about what the writing colors for you.
Gotcha. Yeah, I missed your point the first go round.
You're writing is sterile. I'm saying jazz it up. You write an action picture and you say "PING." Previously I was getting pounded for TOO MUCH description. It was pointed out by multiple SSers that much of what I was polluting the story was for the director to fool with. So I sterilized it. Just like you said. I wrote this with no more than what a director would need to know. If a character jumps I wrote just that. Pistol fire inside a closed space echoes as BOOM! Pistol fire outside goes CRACK! Pistol fire hits metal tubes it goes... PING!
Seems I gotta find just the right amount of salt & spice to please the bulk of the bell curve.
Point made. Will work on figuring that out. Thank you.
Unfortunately, I didn't quite make it through this whole script either, Ray. Thank you for for giving it a stab, just the same, and your remarks that follow.
I won't bring up the first page because, well, everyone has mentioned how important it is. No sense in beating a dead horse. I always find that kinda crazy. Kudos.
Very on the nose and should be approached differently. That second one was when I stopped reading btw. Yeahhhh. That one snags my eye something ugly, as well, for the same ridiculous reason. Workin' on it.
As far as the action goes, I thought it was a bit blocky. Try to write your action a more vertically. Quick and dirty: How does vertical writing differ, while being mindful of cloroxmartini's observation about the sterility of the writing?
Re-read your comments and reconsidered what your intent may have been on one of your points.
This is even more true when introducing new characters in new settings. That should, at the very minimum, include the following:
Not the intro, but rather on the characters?
- Where are we two car accident - What does it look like foggy, one car in the ditch, the other flipped over and an ambulance with a second approaching - Who's there two paramedics, three dead men and one waking one - What are they doing looking for survivors, finding only one
To present these elements more clearly what other approaches should be considered? Thank you.
Had a quick scan. Not bad. But, let's face some facts. This'll cost a lot. Mucho spondoolies. Is it the best it can be? Hmmm.
Some advice from a shitekicker from nowhere fast? Dragged up in Manc.
Needs more work. And thought. Imagine you are in the audience for the preview sat beside Charlie. Kaufman. Don't cough. The other side is himself - Clint. Nearby is Phillip Seymour. Hoffman. Stephen, Stanley and Dave. The Finch. Now then. How good is it now? Really? It ain't Inception. Nolan's on holiday with Queen.
Love and Kisses
R xo.
Oh, and Take Care. Karl sends his love. He's busy with Janine. In a cellar near you.
Had a quick scan. Not bad. But, let's face some facts. This'll cost a lot. Mucho spondoolies. Is it the best it can be? Hmmm. As cited in that first HIDEOUS post: PG-13 action & language. Nothing for little kids or highbrow critics. Great for the $5 WalMart bin. Runnin' and gunnin' with a fair bit of humor thrown in. No smattering the camera lens with brains and blood. $30 - $60M budget.
I didn't wanna pretend to be Kubrick. This is action/thriller grindhouse schlock. Unabashedly. My target audience are the consumers with 250 DVDs, mostly watched only once. Movie hoarders.
Some advice from a shitekicker from nowhere fast? Dragged up in Manc. Don't... know what that means. LOL!
Needs more work. And thought. Imagine you are in the audience for the preview sat beside Charlie. Kaufman. Don't cough. The other side is himself - Clint. Nearby is Phillip Seymour. Hoffman. Stephen, Stanley and Dave. The Finch. Now then. How good is it now? Really? It ain't Inception. Nolan's on holiday with Queen. Yes, Yes, Indeed not and Is that so? See above. (Kaufman might enjoy it, BTW.)
Love and Kisses Right back atcha, love.
Oh, and Take Care. Karl sends his love. He's busy with Janine. In a cellar near you. Thanks. Please tell him the llamas are still in Memphis. Give J a kiss 4 me. Cheers
I sincerely need... assistance in grasping a better, generally accepted way of describing things. It seems like the SS alumni get together behind closed doors and plot to run nubes around in some sort of insane fraternity hazing ritual with conflicting and contradictory suggestions/requests/demands.
From Dona Marina:Origins, Bert posted: And once again, during the trade talks, you give too many extraneous details. Again, a lop by half would serve this well.
You contributed: A reader wants a story - nothing else. So does the director. They both want the same thing. The director should be deciding shots, where sounds come in, etc - not you.
Rob/Sniper Alas, you're still stuck in overwriting-mode. You take up a good portion of the script with descriptions... that are really not needed. Some of them are, sure, but you should consider cutting it down to a couple of paragraphs.
From Lapse, Herman posted; I think there's a better way to show convoys departing at three different locations... you have three consecutive titles but then they all look the same.
Rob: The three trucks arriving at the different prisons, you just copy-pasted that and it looks and reads terrible. Mix it up a little. Make it visual interesting
The prison sequence is severely under-written.
Very slow fade in? Wrong... "A shimmer of light. Distant noises. Blurry outlines. Distorted colors. More light. Faint voices. Contours take shape."
The opening scenes are way too vague... It doesn't have to be overly detailed, it just has to be clear.
Yourself: Try to write your action a more vertically. That will give it the feel of moving faster.
Cloroxmartini: You're writing is sterile. I'm saying jazz it up. You write an action picture and you say "PING."
Lop in half. Just give us the story. Unneeded descriptions. (Man, that word looks funny) They all look the same. Mix it up. Make it interesting. It's under-written. Change VERY SLOW FADE IN (four words) to shimmer/noises/outlines/colors/more light/voices/shapes (edited down from two lines) Scenes too vague. Make it vertical. Writing is sterile. Jazz it up.
Am I effectively communicating the contradictory info I'm receiving?
I hope you guys can tell I really am paying attention and remembering what everyone is generously imparting. I'll never disrespect you by not listening.
I'm a smart guy. I need an explanation... what was it Rob said? "It doesn't have to be overly detailed, it just has to be clear."
I sincerely need... assistance in grasping a better, generally accepted way of describing things. It seems like the SS alumni get together behind closed doors and plot to run nubes around in some sort of insane fraternity hazing ritual with conflicting and contradictory suggestions/requests/demands.
Am I effectively communicating the contradictory info I'm receiving?
Ray, I can see how it might appear confusing but I don't think the advice you are getting is as contradictory as you think. If someone is telling you to jazz up your writing it doesn't mean you need to provide more description, just that what you are describing should be more interesting or lively.
By choosing your words carefully you can be economical with your descriptions but still make it exciting to read. Just because you get advised not to put in camera directions and transitions and other things that a director will add, doesn't mean you only need to write a bland set of instructions for the director to follow. If the story doesn't jump off the page and grab our interest it will never get to the stage of being seen by a director.
It kind of seems like you are over thinking things, and instead of focusing purely on the story you are pre-occupied with marketing campaigns, industry jargon and quoting random stuff you see online that really has nothing to do with spec scripts. Leave all that stuff to the producers and just focus on your story and characters.
And remember that it takes time to really become a good writer. It isn't going to just happen straight away. Everyone on here is always learning and looking to improve. Nobody on here is perfect and nobody expects you to be either. Just be patient and keep writing and try to find your own voice. Most pro writers say that their first few screenplays sucked. You'll get a handle on it the more you write and by reading more scripts. Think of what kind of stories you want to tell and go read up on some screenplays in that genre and learn from them.
Listen, man, I know you hate me and don’t want to listen to anything I have to say, but you definitely seem like someone who wants advice and guidance, and you seem to seek out information like a Private Dick, so, like it or not, I’m going to offer some up.
I’m only reading your first 2 pages, because that’s all I can get through, but I can help, if you let me. You’re going to hear a bunch of things you haven’t heard from anyone else, along with a few things that you’ve heard from everyone else.
You’ve stated again and again that you’re getting conflicting advice from everyone. I’d agree to a point, but that makes sense. Everyone is different and everyone writes differently. There are certain dos and don’ts in screenwriting. Period. You may see Pro writers breaking these “rules” all the time, but that doesn’t mean you should. You need to find your own voice, and it will most likely come from reading other scripts. You’ll know what you like and what you don’t like, and eventually, you’ll come up with a style that suits you, and there you go, you’ll be off.
My first piece of advice is to start out small…write a simple short script, with only a few characters in a few settings, involved in a simple plot. If you can’t do that, there’s no way in Hell you’re going to be able to pull off a country hopping high speed thriller. It just ain’t gonna happen, bud. Walk first, then get up to a slow jog, then open it up and let it scream.
OK, let’s get to this script.
Page 1 – You always want to start with a “FADE IN:” in the upper left corner.
Your initial SLUG is already an issue, IMO. “U.S. MEXICO BORDER CROSSING” – Which one? You know there are many, and it makes a difference if you’re going to go for a realistic touch, which you seem to want to do, based on the following SLUGS of the various, exact prisons. Also, it’s just not a very good detailed SLUG to open up with, really. You state it’s on the US side in a description line, but we wouldn’t know that from the SLUG.
The opening passage is also not good. The first sentence is a run-on sentence that is very awkward. The 2nd sentence is also poor, and as Rob pointed out, it’s not even accurate. So, IMO, things are not looking good at all, and we’re only 1 SLUG and 2 sentences into the script.
Next passage is also poorly written. When you intro a character, you have to CAP his name, whether or not you actually named him. I’m talking about the officer here. You mention crossing into the US in both passages, which is an issue. If you properly set your scene with a better SLUG, you (and we) would know that we’re already in the US, on the border, in an inspection station of some kind. I think you’d actually have to do a little research to figure out exactly what this place is, etc.
OK, so now we go to a “WAREHOUSE”, and it’s night all of a sudden. Again, you offer zero info as to where this place is, but of all the goofy places to do illegal things (and we know they’re up to something), they’re doing it outside! Why would they do this outside a warehouse, as opposed to inside it, where they can’t be seen so easily?
Check out your passage under this new SLUG.
“Boxes from that same truck are unloaded into multiple vehicles. They depart.”
What same truck? How are we supposed to know that? And even worse, you showed 2 trucks in the first scene, and you didn’t describe either, so we have no visual to tie either truck to this one here. You’re also not describing these “vehicles”, or who or how these boxes are being unloaded from the truck and loaded into these vehicles. The scene you described in 1 ½ lines will take much longer onscreen to show than the lines suggest, which means to me that it’s way underwritten. The boxes are being unloaded by people, right? You didn’t intro or mention a single sole. That’s a problem. You see what I’m saying?
My suggestion is to come up with a look for the initial truck(s). Maybe they’re all the same in their markings. It’s got to be something that we’ll recognize when we see them again.
Next, we’re in Beaumont, TX, and we’re somehow supposed to recognize 1 of the vehicles at the warehouse, which you didn’t describe.
Then, a few seconds later, we’re in Tucson, AZ, and it’s an identically written scene, just a different prison.
And, then, we hit Marion, IL, of all places.
So, what’s wrong with these scenes? A LOT! First of all, you’ve got 3 SUPERS in less than 30 seconds…maybe, based on the writing, in less than 15 seconds. That’s not going to look good at all. If anything, it will look super cheesy, and cringe worthy. Next, is something you may not have even thought about, and it goes back to what I said originally about not properly setting your opening SLUG. Where is this warehouse, and what border crossing are we at? Tucson and Beaumont are 1,100 miles apart. Tucson and Marion are 1,600 miles apart. And finally, Beaumont and Marion, are 750 miles apart. You see what I’m getting at? You’ve got these vehicles all arriving at the prisons, in what seems to be the same time. I don’t know how much thought you put into this, but it doesn’t seem like much, and attention to detail either works for you or against you.
Now, here’s the amazing thing. After using SUPERS to show your audience each prison and what it looks like, your next SLUG is a generic “PRISON”, meaning we don’t know which prison we’re even at, and we don’t have a clue where in the prison this is happening. You didn’t intro your characters properly here again, because you didn’t CAP their names. For some reason, you’re writing in some sort of short hand, which reads poorly, IMO. And what’s with an actual homemade abbreviation? Dude, you can’t do that shit…pkg? HUH? No, no…
This final scene here seems to be taking place in several completely different parts of the prison, also, meaning you either need to format it as a series of shots or use 3 different SLUGS. You see what I’m saying?
And then, to top things off, you use a meaningless transition (FADE TO BLACK) and never FADE IN for your next scene!
Page 2 – I’m only going to briefly go over things here, cause it’s a real mess and it would take a lot of commentary to address all the problems.
First of all, it’s a little strange to set a crash scene inside the car. In no way am I saying you can’t do it, but it is odd, IMO.
You did not properly intro your characters here again. Using the word “plastered” is rough here.
Actually, starting the scene from inside a car that is already spinning out of control, with 4 characters we’ve never seen before is extremely rough…and an odd visual. For me, it doesn’t work at all.
Since you’re inside the car, using “The Crown Vic crashes…”, seems strange, and not right, IMO.
And then another transition, followed by a “VERY SLOW FADE IN”. No, Ray, no. Don’t do this. Just stick to writing your story.
So, we fade back into the exact same scene we just left, “INT. CROWN VIC - DAY”. Uh, that doesn’t make sense, does it?
You never want to start a new scene with dialogue, and especially not V.O. dialogue. You have to set the scene with what and who we’re seeing in the scene.
As others have said, the dialogue here is abysmal, and this is actually your first bits of dialogue! RED FLAG!!!!
So then, of all things, you decide to show this scene through someone’s POV that we’ve never seen, and who hasn’t even been intro’d yet. And on top of that, you formatted it totally incorrectly. Keep in mind what a POV is. It’s a clear cut form of directing, and has nothing to do with the story. It’s the writer saying, “hey, that would be a cool way to show this action taking place, I think I’ll throw it in.” And, c’mon, why show a POV from someone we don’t even remotely know that hasn’t even been intro’d yet? HUH?
Next bit of dialogue is possibly even worse than the first 2 lines. It makes these two out to be complete Smart-ass A-Holes. And, Jo still hasn’t even been intro’d yet!
Oh boy, so now the POV shifts to Jo, and we finally get an intro.
Her next dialogue is pretty poor again, and all this stuff about “winners” is far from funny or cute. It’s tasteless, actually.
So, dude, I know you’re going to hate reading this, and I know others may as well. If you do hear what I’m saying though, and take it to heart, it will help you as a writer. Remember, these 2 clichés…”Rome wasn’t built in a day” and “walk before you run”. They’ll both help.
Ray, Thought I’d give this a read. Before I comment on the rest of the script, I thought I’d chime in on the first page.
Another way to write the first sequence might be...
Quoted Text
FADE IN:
EXT. SAN YSIDRO/TIJUANA BORDER CROSSING – DAY
Controlled chaos.
LINES of waiting vehicles throw smog into the cloudless sky.
Disheveled CHILDREN beg to drivers through closed windows.
MEN move up and down the lines selling anything and everything.
NEARBY
A BIG-RIG TRUCK pulls behind several other TRUCKS crossing into California. On its REAR DOORS an American Flag is painted.
Several CUSTOMS OFFICERS scan the truck as it pulls into the inspection pit.
OFFICER #1 runs a mirror on a stick beneath the length of the truck and trailer.
Meters away, OFFICER #2 holds back a BARKING POLICE DOG. Something within the truck has its attention.
The SERGEANT IN CHARGE stands nearby. Eyes hidden behind mirrored lenses.
At the strain of the pulling dog, Officer #2 moves towards the rig.
The Sergeant in Charge waves him off.
Without a word, Officer #2 stands down.
The DOG BARKS pulling against the leash.
Cleared, the Big-Rig pulls onto a large X-RAY SCANNER and waits as the thing HUMS.
After a moment, the Rig is once again cleared. It moves off the platform, rolls past several SECURITY OFFICERS and crosses into the U.S.
The Sergeant follows it with a turn of his head.
EXT. WAREHOUSE LOADING AREA – DAY
An empty warehouse district. The sun hides behind the tall, metal buildings.
The Big-rig sits parked near the closest warehouse with its rear doors open nowhere near the loading dock.
With a sense of urgency, plain-dressed MEXICAN WORKERS unload unmarked boxes from the rear of the Big-rig and load them into waiting, identical CARGO VANS.
After several moments, the workers have the Big-rig emptied.
Almost simultaneously, each worker closes the rear doors to his van, gets in it and leaves. Each drives off in different directions.
The Big-rig DRIVER does the same. He closes his rear doors and gets out of there.
All are gone in seconds.
EXT. USP MARION – DAY
SUPER: MAXIMUM SECURITY PRISON. MARION, IL.
One of the unmarked CARGO VANS passes through several security gates.
SERIES OF SCENES
Shows the other CARGO VANS pulling up to different PRISONS in different areas of the country.
BEAUMONT, TEXAS... TUSCON, ARIZONA.
It could be written a thousand and one different ways. A thousand better than the way I've shown.
I think what you should do is instead of listening to us, find a script that you've read and really like for whatever reason and write like that. Don't follow the blind, or those with blurry vision. You need to follow a script that has been through the wringer.
One that's been hustled, chopped and sold.
One that I liked for its technicality is I AM LEGEND (or anything by Akiva Goldsman). I love the way that thing is written, how the characters are introduced, etc. Fast, great description.
I'll finish this sometime this week and give you some feedback on the story.
You need to follow a script that has been through the wringer.
One that's been hustled, chopped and sold.
D@mn excellent idea! I am absolutely NOT above ripping off someone else's mechanics. I'm embarrassed that i didn't think of that approach myself sooner.
Thank you
Ray
EDIT : Joseph, I cannot go to sleep tonight without thanking you for not only writing and submitting an execution of how the opening trucks/warehouse/prisons sequence could go, but also for spending the time considering how it could be pulled off. Thank you. Your work is greatly appreciated.
I've been kickin' around for the last few days what the collective "You" have been stating about how much or how little I should describe things.
Too much sugary blabbin' = back off! you're stepping on the director an DP's toes = too hot
Dry as toast = only what a director needs = too cold
Toast with a smidge of jelly = at least the reader will read it and pass it onto the director = just right.
Something close to right?
I know, I know, format aside, which is a different issue...
I don't think anyone can slam me for asides and unfilmables in Lapse, but I do see where I could spice-up the action lines a smidge so that a reader doesn't choke and die on dust and sand. Petty, fickle & petulant readers can easily stop an otherwise sound story from getting past the desk. That limitation should be respected and approached with appropriate measures.
The first 50 or so pages of this script I thought were a quick and exciting read. Almost as soon as our heroes meet up with Frankie it feels like there's much less direction -- even though everyone's lives are still in danger it seems like they all might die by mistake instead of having the plot continue to unfold.
I like Jo and Mike and Madison very much, they are characters that an audience would like, too, and would miss if anything terrible happens to them.
Frankie is an interesting character, he's so full of himself that it's believable that he could ruin a strip tease and later take a shot at Mario for no good reason and set off a war.
The discussions about drugs and crime and jobs for everybody are interesting but go on for too long and people seem to speak too calmly, I think.
I think that the idea that there's a mole among the good guys is very important and we might need to be reminded of that more often.
The first 50 or so pages of this script I thought were a quick and exciting read. Almost as soon as our heroes meet up with Frankie it feels like there's much less direction Thanks! Rats! I was shooting for a really nasty, train crash change in pace from the running and gunning to this extremely uncomfortable "foxes caught in foothold traps" then moving onto another running and gunning afterwards. Sounds like the wheels fell of my wagon.
-- even though everyone's lives are still in danger it seems like they all might die by mistake instead of having the plot continue to unfold. Bingo on the first half! I want lunacy to be in control. Rats, again on the second half of the observation. Any thought on how I would have Frankie seem like he's going to kill 'em at any random moment when he really has little intent to? He just wants to pump them for intel.
I like Jo and Mike and Madison very much, they are characters that an audience would like, too, and would miss if anything terrible happens to them. Thank you. I thought it would be real tempting to kill off Mike, but... no. That's what I wanted to pull the audience back from a "certain" death of a seemingly disposable person. "ReallY?" are any of us disposable?
Frankie is an interesting character, he's so full of himself that it's believable that he could ruin a strip tease and later take a shot at Mario for no good reason and set off a war. I love Frankie! He's a sociopath. Freaking nuts. Smart, not over the top super-bad ridiculous. But your life don't mean much to him. You're a tool.
The discussions about drugs and crime and jobs for everybody are interesting but go on for too long and people seem to speak too calmly, I think. Gotcha. Thank you.
I think that the idea that there's a mole among the good guys is very important and we might need to be reminded of that more often. Admitted weak point. I really need to drop some more bread crumbs throughout the first half of the story, I think.
Thank you very much for reading Lapse and providing these perspectives!
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